Organic Nettie, these are the best I have right now, we do have cabinet hardware on most cabinets (chocolate bronze), the hood is hung, and the appliance panels are not installed. It is still at the point where you have to use your imagination and ignore the messy parts. I need to figure out how to post smaller pictures, but this gives you an idea.

Thanks for letting me share.

Would you mind directing me to Prof. Chyi's report?

Thank you, Debs

{{gwi:1963936}}{{gwi:1963937}}{{gwi:1963938}}

There's a link to the Chyi report, attached.

I truly believe that some of the concoctions that I have been known to dish up in my kitchen pose a far greater threat to the health of my family and guests than whatever my countertop may be emitting. ;)

Revans1, thank you. I recognize it, I got more out of it this time around.

debs3, I think it would help us (at least those of us who have been through the "granite wars" that have raged on and off here on GW) if you would take us through the timeline of your activities, and describe what you've done.

You've said that you became aware of this based on a NY Times article that appeared on July 24. On September 15, Al Gerhart posted lots of detailed information about your particular situation, based (according to him) on input from one of his "allies". On October 20, you opened this thread.

If you can and are willing to do so, please fill in the gaps. Thanks.

Debs3, as far as radon is concerned, the testing protocols take into account the "chimney effect". As far as I know there are no seperate protocols established for testing ONLY a granite slab. That said, a licensed radon tech would have to factor that in, as he has no other EPA or state protocol to follow.

IMO..it seems that different testing procedures need to be developed..as the test is being performed on a specific object..and not on the indoor air quality. That said, the tech can't discount the fact that the granite is not the only source. And as radon levels can change, one would have to test the house with the granite..then without the granite during the same time period in order to come up with a meaaningful number.

In addition, as far as I know radon techs are not trained in the proper use of a geiger counter in this respect. So again, it seems as if you have had your testing perofrmed by those doing research on the subject...in order to determine how best to perhaps develop a specific granite testing protocol. That said, I'm not sure that any of your results results are truly meaningful.

As I consult to the home inspection profession, I know many, many HI's who are licensed radon techs. All whom I have spoken with confirm what appears below:

Here is an excerpt from the link below;

"....Recently, many radon labs reported that consumers are placing their radon-in-air test devices on granite surfaces under bowls, buckets, baking pans, or other similar containers. BEWARE of suggestions to place an ordinary radon test kit under an inverted container of an unknown volume. Such an experiment will, 99% of the time, grossly over-report the radon levels. Using this method to determine the radon that may be coming from your granite will be inaccurate and will likely result in a number that is very high..."

This explains your under the bowl absurdly high level in excess of 1,304.9 pCi/L...didn't your testers explain this?

"...Most web videos and TV demonstrations measure the granite counter top using a Geiger Counter. These simple audible devices are being used for dramatic effect and are misleading in two principle ways:

1. Simple hand-held Geiger Counters are not calibrated for measuring ONLY the radon-producing Radium in granite. This means they will almost always over-respond when attempting to measure the radon emissions.

2. Not all the radiation coming from the granite that makes the clicking sound comes from radon-producing Radium. In most cases the noise is produced by two other naturally occurring elements: Potassium and Thorium. In fact, up to 95% of the Geiger Counter clicks may come from the Potassium. Potassium is very common and is found in our own bodies, as well as many foods and vitamin supplements..."

Testing is complex, and also with no specific protocol for this particular appliacation..therefore, it appears as if your "testers" were utilizing your situation as research..with the results hardly conclusive.

That said, as this seems to cause you a lot of stress, have the granite removed..and use the plywood contact paper suggestion until you can purchase new material. However..as radon levels can and DO change, one can't equivocally assume that they won't for granite countertops.

Therefore, if you test once a year..as is always recommended if there is a radon emitting source, and it tests high, my guess is you won't want to replace the granite a second time. That said, it seems that granite may not be the choice for you. Best bet, look into other materials.

Debs - I liked your letter. Good for you for writing it!

revans1, I have already stated what I have done and provided many details.

Since the July, 2008 N.Y. Times article, I have been trying to learn and understand as much as I can about this issue; and since our granite is a problem for us, I became concerned for other people. I have personally seen granite slabs much hotter than ours for sale without disclosure.

I am guessing that there are people who would choose to live with our granite, we are choosing not to.

This is about risk and having a choice about that risk, and being given the information to make that choice.

I posted here because my conscience requires it, I have no other reason, and no one else suggested, or hinted, that I do so. Debs

Any idea how the detailed info on your particular case showed up in a stranger's blog?

Revans1,

If you are thinking it was me, it wasn't. People are collecting and sharing data to try and establish a testing protocol, and they talk to each other, and some one posted our information on their blog to make a point, unbeknownst to me. I do not find it mysterious or unusual.

Until there is a testing protocol and certain expectations/requirements for what is being sold, people will need to test so they can make an informed choice. The good thing is that some stone yards are already responding by starting to test before they buy the stone that they wish to sell to us.

debs3: "Until there is a testing protocol and certain expectations/requirements for what is being sold, people will need to test so they can make an informed choice. The good thing is that some stone yards are already responding by starting to test before they buy the stone that they wish to sell to us.

However, you yourself are aware that there ISN'T a testing protocol....so people don't need to test...as the results are pretty much meaningless WITHOUT a protocol.

That said, how is it a "good thing" that stone yards are testing...when without a protocol, the results are meaningless????

I'm not thinking it was you. I am thinking that you're trying to be a little too careful and a little too attenuated with some of your posts and responses, and you may be creating more suspicion about your actions and your motives than is warranted. Or, maybe not.

If I read the New York Times and got worried, for the very first time, about my granite, and then called somebody to test it for me, I would find it extremely mysterious and unusual that a notorious banned member of a discussion board that I've belonged to for a year had a detailed description of my situation posted on their blog. I would not find it mysterious or unusual that other people on the board were struck by the oddity of it. And I'd expect to provide a more forthcoming explanation of it all than you have so far.

If I had to guess, whatever you're trying not to say is probably less damaging than the impression that you've made while trying not to say it.

Logic,

It is my belief and concern that people would like to have a choice about the radioactivity and/or radon of the granite they are purchasing.

There is a small percentage of the granites being sold that stand out amongst the rest. I would guess these are the ones that some stone yards are beginning to weed out.

It is not difficult to check the slabs for radiation and to be able see how they compare to each other and background radiation.

Testing for radon by itself on a slab of granite in a stone yard does not appear to be a possible endeavor. Nor is it possible to tell how much radium, which produces radon, is present without sending a piece to a lab, and the amount will vary throughout the slab. The easiest correlation, not the most accurate, is that the lower the radioactivity of the stone the lower the radon is likely to be.

debs3: "It is not difficult to check the slabs for radiation and to be able see how they compare to each other and background radiation.

Testing for radon by itself on a slab of granite in a stone yard does not appear to be a possible endeavor. Nor is it possible to tell how much radium, which produces radon, is present without sending a piece to a lab, and the amount will vary throughout the slab. The easiest correlation, not the most accurate, is that the lower the radioactivity of the stone the lower the radon is likely to be."

You seem to be missing the point...and you are making assumptions based on unequivocal evidence.

With no accepted/approved/documented protocol, any result is MEANINGLESS It could be high or low...but since the protocol has not been developed that make the test equivocal, the numbers don't mean anything.

Therefore, one could buy a granite that "tested" and the result was low number..but that number could in reality be incorrect..and vice versa.

There is a reason for testing protocols..and that is that they give the best assurance of valid results.

The testing methods are still in the research stage and they have a way to go beofre protocols are even developed...is still in the infancy stage..so, anyone who is concerned about this possible aspect of granite should choose another material.

I sympathize with the fact that you really want granite and are willing to choose another...but simply believing that "because it tests low" it IS low does not make it so...and it is not appropriate to mislead others into thinking that the tests mean anything at this point in time.

Hi Logic, I respect your opinion, but I do disagree. Could you give me an example where a granite tested low for radiation, and the radon or radiation was still a problem? Thank you, Debs

I think the point is that nobody knows what you mean by "tested low for radiation", or by "radon or radiation was still a problem". What is "low"? What is "a problem"? In my opinion (and that of the EPA), the levels of radon in your home aren't "a problem", but you still seem pretty steamed about it.

Logic, I repeat:
"It is my belief and concern that people would like to have a choice about the radioactivity and/or radon of the granite they are purchasing.

There is a small percentage of the granites being sold that stand out amongst the rest. I would guess these are the ones that some stone yards are beginning to weed out.

It is not difficult to check the slabs for radiation and to be able see how they compare to each other and background radiation.

Testing for radon by itself on a slab of granite in a stone yard does not appear to be a possible endeavor. Nor is it possible to tell how much radium, which produces radon, is present without sending a piece to a lab, and the amount will vary throughout the slab. The easiest correlation, not the most accurate, is that the lower the radioactivity of the stone the lower the radon is likely to be."

May be instead of saying "the lower the radon is likely to be.", I should say "the lower the radon may possibly be."

Revans1, I was simply trying to get some clarification on Logic's last sentence where she says,"I sympathize with the fact that you really want granite and are willing to choose another...but simply believing that "because it tests low" it IS low does not make it so...and it is not appropriate to mislead others into thinking that the tests mean anything at this point in time."

If the stone is capable of giving off radon it will have at least some radioactivity, if it is not radioactive there should be no radon.

I just finished reading one of revans1's clippings, where Prof. Llope was included, he says the same thing.

"Posted by w_j_llope (My Page) on Tue, May 13, 08 at 17:39:

but, to be perfectly clear, i did mention that i found no radiation signature above background off of any other surface in the house (i walked throughout many rooms in the house and its exterior scanning everything - floor tiles, kitchen wall tiles, concrete, bricks, sheetrock, fireplace, etc etc - i was scanning everything basically).... it took quite a while and i suspect the people in the room waiting for me to finish were getting impatient with my thoroughness there!
my broad spectrum geiger counter was absolutely quiet throughout this process. absolutely quiet everywhere but near the granite countertops, that is.

there is not, in my opinion, a defensible reason to claim a surface that emits no radiation could be emitting radon.

as i also said before, the countertops gave a whopping big signal (2 orders of magnitude above background). and the independent professional (not DIY) radon test the homeowners did indicated significant radon concentrations only in the kitchen. negligible elsewhere."

It is at least possible that there is a correlation between radioactivity and radon. Here is what Prof. Llope said:

"Posted by w_j_llope (My Page) on Tue, May 13, 08 at 10:39:
a simple geiger counter will indeed indicate the direct radiation. 
in general, for granite, there is a strong correlation between 
the radioactivity and the uranium content. uranium begets radon, 
most of which is trapped. some is not. the amount that is trapped 
depends on the porosity of the stone, which varies widely across 
stones. the amount of uranium in the stone also varies widely 
from negligible to not negligible (see my link above about 
grand central station). 
of course, the radiation, if observed, could be coming from an 
excess amount of 40-K or 232-Th, neither of which produce the 
long-lived radon gas. the risk in that case arises only 
from the external radiation exposure. 
to know what parent nucleus (K, U, or Th) is releasing the 
radioactivity, one needs to take the gamma spectrum. I am in the 
process of collecting stones being sold in the US to do precisely 
that. i will be posting the results from these stories on my site."

Logic, don't you think that it is possibly that the granite yards will start using (have started using) a Geiger counter, or similar device, to weed out the undesirable granites before they purchase the stone they want to sell to us, and without using an established protocol? We can do that too, on the stone that is already here for sale.

Logic, you might find it interesting to see this for yourself. Rent a Geiger counter and visit at least 4 large stone yards and see what you discover.

Places to rent Geiger counters:

http://www.ashtead-technology.com/us/ContactUs/index.asp
http://www.radpro.com/rentals.html

I don't want extra radon or radiation in my home and it doesn't mean I cannot choose another granite/stone. I don't feel I need to wait for the protocol to be established to choose another stone that I would be comfortable with. If some one else wants to wait for the protocol, they can. I think other people would like to have a choice about this too, and they deserve a choice, that is why I posted about this issue, I am trying to help others. They may not want to bring into their home, what we brought into ours, or worse than ours. Not everyone will make the same choice, but it is only right to give us a choice.

revans1, this is from the EPA website:

"The average indoor radon level is estimated to be about 1.3 pCi/L, and about 0.4 pCi/L of radon is normally found in the outside air. The U.S. Congress has set a long-term goal that indoor radon levels be no more than outdoor levels. While this goal is not yet technologically achievable in all cases, most homes today can be reduced to 2 pCi/L or below."

Revans1 I think your clipping relates to this thread very well, especially when reading what Prof. Llope has to say, and he is a professional in this area. I think it would be great if people would read it again. It really covers the topic very well, for now, I don't see what more can be said.

I think everyone I could potential help at this time, has read this thread, and I feel I have said what I needed to say.

Debs3, I repeat..without established protocols, the results are guesswork at most...regardless of what you choose to believe.

As mentioned earlier, many things can effect the results of a radon test in the home.....these have been established.

Nothing has been established that is EQUIVOCAL in any respect in testing granite slabs...it is all in the research stage...and none of the methods used in your case (including geiger counter and the insane and erroneous bowl count)or any other testing procedures for that matter have been scientifically vetted and proven in order to determine what varialbes may effect the results of testing granite slabs one way or the other.

Using test methods and equipment that have proven to be appropriate for certain appliactions does not mean that you can assume that the results are reliable for ALL applications...which appears to be what you are doing.

And, any licensed radon tech that did not educate you on these matters..esepcially the false reading aspects with the bowl and geiger counter tests, was clearly derlict in his duty...and perhaps just wanted the job because he needed the money and was willing to do what you asked, regardless of the fact that the results would be menaingless.

Debs3: "Logic, don't you think that it is possibly that the granite yards will start using (have started using) a Geiger counter, or similar device, to weed out the undesirable granites before they purchase the stone they want to sell to us, and without using an established protocol? We can do that too, on the stone that is already here for sale."

Hardly. IMO, they know that the results are usless..other than to appease those buyers who have a concern, based upon the NY Times article. However, this is nothing but a false appeasement for buyers who don't realize that this is not a proven, vetted or reliable method to make any conclusive and equivocal determination one way or the other.

Debs3: "Logic, you might find it interesting to see this for yourself. Rent a Geiger counter and visit at least 4 large stone yards and see what you discover.

Waste of time..as posted earlier:

." Simple hand-held Geiger Counters are not calibrated for measuring ONLY the radon-producing Radium in granite. This means they will almost always over-respond when attempting to measure the radon emissions.

2. Not all the radiation coming from the granite that makes the clicking sound comes from radon-producing Radium. In most cases the noise is produced by two other naturally occurring elements: Potassium and Thorium. In fact, up to 95% of the Geiger Counter clicks may come from the Potassium. Potassium is very common and is found in our own bodies, as well as many foods and vitamin supplements..."

Consequently, your points are all moot.

I disagree, you disagree.

The scientist that tested a sample of our granite said the K-40 is quite low and the Uranium is 3.9 times greater than the Thorium. So....your statement numbered #2 does not apply to our granite.

I still encourage people to test. We have chosen to rip ours out and I would like to spare others from this ordeal.

debs3: I still encourage people to test.

It is not a matter of disagreement..it is fact. Unless you can prove and document protocols that have been proven to result in equivocal results, which you have not been able to do, you are encouraging nothing..because none of these methods qualify as a test, as a test implies results that can be relied upon based upon proven methods.

Realize as well that your "encouragement" can result in people ripping out their granite as well..based upon results that are for all intents and purposes are indeed meaningless.

How about sparing them from the expense of ripping it out by NOT encouraging the use of worthless testing?

Your inability to accept the reality that testing is in the research stage only regarding this issue is mystifying to say the least.

I want to restate that the significantly hotter granites are a small percentage of the total, but these granites are out there for sale and I want people to have the opportunity to choose, even if the information is only from a Geiger counter or similar device.

So, logic, in the meantime, without the established testing protocols, what do you suggest people buying granite should do? Do you think they shouldn't be told about the radioactivity of the granite they are about to purchase? Establishing the testing protocol takes time. In the meantime people could be buying and installing granite they will later want removed because they did not know what they were buying.

Is it okay with you that people can buy granite slabs with gamma radiation levels in areas of the stone at 70 times background radiation without being told? And that is only what I have seen. You don't know where that section of stone could end up in someone's home.

What if your child sat there at that section of hot granite, eating and doing homework? Maybe that risk is okay with you, but someone else would choose differently. I think they are entitled to a choice, now, not later.

That is what I am talking about here, give people the information and let them choose. You want to wait until the testing protocol is established. A Geiger counter, or similar instrument, gives enough information to at least error on the side of caution.

Also, think of this, if they know where those hot sections are they can avoid installing them by cutting them out. Simple fix. Not so simple if already installed.

This expression comes to mind: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

If some one finds radioactive granite in their home, I am sure they are smart enough to have it professionally tested, evaluated by a health physicist, speak with their doctor, and do what ever else they need to, and then make the decision that suits them. I am sure they would have preferred to make that decision, or at least tried, before the granite was purchased and installed.

debs3: "even if the information is only from a Geiger counter or similar device....
.....So, logic, in the meantime, without the established testing protocols, what do you suggest people buying granite should do? "

As the testing is meaningless right now..including the Geiger counter tests, people can't make an informed decision...period.

That said...they can do one of two things...not buy granite at all...and avoid any risk that may or may not eventually be equivocally proven...or buy granite...and take the chance that someday a testing procedure may be developed that could prove it to be a problem...or not.

One takes a risk in every product bought.... brand new cars, car seats, cribs, dog food, food contaminated with salmonella, plastics, pharmaceuticals, etc. the list is endless of products and food/drugs that could prove to be hazardous and even deadly.

After all, we have an FDA that is supposed to have all of the proper protocols in place to protects us from food/drug hazards, but it is clearly beyond even their ability to do so...and many deaths have resulted from that fact.

Shall we all obtain our Ph D's in environmental and product testing procedures and complex protocols and drive around in a fully equipped RV/Lab in order test EVERYTHING before we buy it??

THAT is the reality.

There is no way to completely avoid risks from products and/or risks from environmental factors...and leading people to believe that an unproven testing procedure is meaningful does nothing but provide false assurance; therefore, there is no point.

Seriously.... there is radon in the ground under your house that you built right on top of, what ever will you do about that? And I sure hope you're not drinking out of plastic water bottles, sleeping with an alarm clock next to your head, or heaven fobid you talk on a cell phone. And with all your research (and time spent here on Gardenweb) it's obvious you are in GRAVE DANGER from the RADIATION EXPOSURE from your pc monitor.

Will you be sending a letter to the government about x-ray exposure as well? I'd hate for all the kids across America to grow extra limbs and glow in the dark.

And did you know you consume ARSENIC (yes, CONSUME) every day? It is found in fish, vegetables, and likely even your drinking water.

Honestly I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you have been exposed to harmful products since your existence began on Earth. Everything is "BAD" for you. Maybe you weren't "aware" of the granite issue but surely you have heard of the others. This is just the HOT (no pun intended) issue right now. And this too shall pass.

I hope this thread will pass, on to page 2, then 3...

"This expression comes to mind: 'An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.'"

And an ounce of paranoia is ... well, still paranoia. A pound of logic won't cure that in people who can't, or won't, think critically or even rationally.

imho- the sarcasm in the last couple posts was really unnecessary.

Sarcasm? In the immortal words of Montoya: I don't think that word means what you think it means! I was most definitely not being sarcastic, nor I suspect was maureeninmd

Deb3 (and others of similar views) are engaging in what psychologists and anthropologists term as "magical thinking" -- believing in a conclusion despite the lack of evidence to support it and often in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary. Its the same kind of nonsensical thinking that gives rise to Bigfoot believers, UFOology, ESP nonsense, Flat Earth Societies, Intelligent Design, Holocaust deniers, and the like.

Wanna still believe -- go right ahead. But do NOT even try to argue that your belief is rational, logical, scientific or even intelligent. Its not. Its socially unproductive, retrograde, and arguably dangerous.

Inconceivable!

To all: sorry this is so long. I have written something along these lines many many many times lo these many months but because it always runs long to answer such "hot granite" assertions with a bit of technical perspective without going overboard, I've always deleted them. I think this subject matter is contentious so I've let the other responses slide. But this thread has retained it's civility so I'm going to give it a shot. If you get bored with the length, just skip it. I don't know how to make it shorter.

Debs3, I think you should go ahead and remove your granite. Nothing less will improve your state of mind and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. The fact that it is highly dubious that you have spots of counter that are irradiating you to green-monsterdom is immaterial; what is much more material is that you are in your kitchen and afraid of your counter. Remove it; live with plywood, whatever.

That said, logic and bradley and the like are correct and the fact is that much of the evidence you have proferred fails a knowledgeable person's smell test. I'm not saying that you don't believe it; I do say, like the others, that far from conclusive, you don't have the evidence of activity that you think you do. The reason: neither geiger counters nor high-energy particles quite behave the way you think they behave. I'm going to refute a few observations from you for the sake of the record - if you are willing to be edified, great, else I hope I can inject a somewhat informed point of view (self: undergraduate Physics. undergrad thesis: high-energy particle physics, testing hypotheses on the Physics dept. particle accelerators, understanding radiation counters including some pointless exercises taking our lab-grade geiger counter outside to "record ambient radiation").

(1) For one thing, you simply can not run around the granite yard with a geiger counter or any sort of test device and think that you will get a reading about emmissions from the slab. You won't. High energy particles are *everywhere*, by definition they are very active and therefore get *everywhere*. You can run your meters in front of a slab - but there doesn't have to be any correlation between what you're measuring and what that slab in front of you is emitting. The only way to know how active your slab is, is to isolate it. And by isolate it, I mean bring it into a safe secured room which has been constructed to specifications (xxx feet thick cement walls, floors, ceiling) that can ensure that there will be virtually no extraneous radiation. Then you'd have to have some sort of plan to embed radiation counters all over the room so that they can collect over some unit amount of time all the high-energy particles emitted by this slab.
In short, what I have said above is rubbish. You simply cannot measure activity emitted from entire slabs without large containment possibilities, large collimators and large detection apertures. Sorry. In radiation and high-energy labs around the world, when people want to record the total activity of a body, they have elaborate mechanisms to contain and collimate any emissions stream from that body towards a detector. So the upshot is, that your slab cannot be "tested" in any meaningful way that doesn't involve cutting it up into little bitty pieces which can be tested to any level of thoroughness and then probably handed back to you in lots of little pieces.

(2) You cannot determine from any measurements that I can think of, conducted on a whole slab, that spot A and spot-B on your granite are treacherously super-active radiative sources. They may be. But the only way to establish that is through a destructive evaluation that will cut the slab into suitable chunks and measure them in an isolated chamber. Many a radiation lab can vett this - but you need to be ready to chunk your granite up.

(3) I wrote a bit about "background radiation" here but in the interest of brevity (uh! too late!) cut it out. Suffice it to say, background radiation ain't what you think it is. It isn't a time-independent noise floor, for instance.

(4) Ergo, if you think that granite yards or the government or joe-consumer can wave a counter in front of a granite slab in a yard and record anything meaningful, you are very sadly mistaken.

(5) Lastly, your bowl over granite test. I don't understand the point of that. If anything, I'd say that if you recorded a very high reading there vs. without covering with said bowl, the only thing I would conclude is that your sensor works - although not saying how well! But that ain't a measure of the number or energy of the particles emitted by that slab - it is a huge multiplier over that depending on the length of time you had it covered.

The govt. can not do what you want them to do. At least not by handing every granite yard a geiger counter or whatever and have them record the hotness or coldness of the stone. It doesn't make any sense - or rather, the only sense it would make is that it might give you a sense of security without making you in the least bit MORE secure than you were. Which is really what logic has been telling you all along.

Both Logic and Mindstorm are completely missing the point. Customers don't want to know absolute radioactivity levels of their granite, they just want to know whether or not its "safe". As there is no such thing as a safe level of radiation many people will want to be exposed to the lowest level possible.

There's a reason why states have NORM laws and that's to prevent radioactive materials from being used by consumers. The states do not have such stringent protocols for testing NORM materials as Mindstorm says is necessary, (for such an educated person, he sure is boneheaded).

Consumers are not scientists and Deb, I'm sure, is not intent on publishing a scientific paper, she just wants to feel secure in her own home, who would criticize her for that?

mikeag, the he you refer to as "boneheaded" is a she.

Carrots emit radon...is the government responsible for testing them? Maybe hand over the geiger counters to the farm workers, so consumers can feel safe.

The GROUND produces Radon. Perhaps, Mikeag, you would suggest we dig up all the earth's soil and burn it?

It is, in fact, you who are missing the point Mikeag and Deb3. You are proposing action based solely on the desire to make you feel better. But the only reason you feel bad in the first place is your own panic and fear. If that panic and fear is unjustified, then so, too, is doing anything about it (other than, perhaps, a does of Paxil or other anti-anxiety mediation). In fact, doing something like you all propose only makes the matter worse by imprinting that unjustified fear with a stamp of undeserved justification and pseudo-authority. Emotion is NEVER and acceptable substitute for thinking.

bradleyj is right. Mikeg and Debs3 want to be mommied and made to feel better. I'd say what they should do is not put granite in their homes. Or they can wave GCs around and react to what they measure. My essay above was to explain why they won't be measuring what they think they are measuring - neither quantitatively nor qualitatively. That indeed, there isn't the capacity to do what they want done. Mikeag thinks that ergo if we use what we currently have that that is good enough - you may be able to make debs3 feel better but it will be whitewash.

Personally, I usually feel better when I'm educated not just that some numbers were collected but what those numbers mean and what they measure. For those who feel likewise, is who my post was targeted at - although I can assure you it wasn't my point to make you feel better or worse. For those who want to feel the warm fuzzies - yup, I'm missing the point and my posts will usually seem "boneheaded".

Paulines, I've never been a bonehead before! This is quite exciting.

L ~ your excitement is contagious, can I be a bonehead too?

Me three!!

Paulines, there is no way in God's green earth that carrots emit radon. Where did you get this and can you post test results?

Here's a link that looks good. I googled 'carrots emit radon' and a number of quite educational-like articles came up. Who knew?

Debs,

I feel you are wasting your time responding to this mob. Just go ahead and post about your experience anyway, please don't allow a handful of hateful people distract you from getting your story out. It is so obvious that those who ridicule you constantly are desperately trying to shut you up. That speaks louder than their lame arguements.

And paulines, the "linky" said there could be insignificant amounts of thorium in the carrots and thorium doesn't emit radon anyway. How does that compare to Deb's granite that has been scientifically tested and found to be way above normal?

I googled "carrot emit radon" too, and haven't found anything at all that comes close to supporting your claim that there is any amount of radon in carrots. But I stopped at six pages. Would you please link to all those " educational-like articles" that you found?

I am wondering if my google is broken cause silly me can't find any of those articles paulines refers to.

rebccah990: "Deb's granite that has been scientifically tested and found to be way above normal?"

You missed the point...Deb's granite has been "tested"...but NOT scientifically, as there are no parameters established as of yet for testing to be proven as equivocal.

Testing of granite is still in the experimental stage. Until proven protocols are established, "testing" can not be categorized as scientific....it is merely an exercise to try to determine a methodology that might someday prove to actually be scientific. However, we are not there as of yet....and as such, no meaningful determination can be made from such tests.

That said, if one is concerned, then the only answer at this time is to not install granite.

Well said logic. I don't understand what has been hateful about this thread, rebeccah990. Logic, Bradley, I ... we have actually tried to inject a bit of reason, not to lull anyone into a false sense of security but to invoke logic and recommend a cool, rational head. Logic and I have both said that if you want guarantees then do not install granite in your house. Some of us have gone so far as to tell Debs3 not to bother to wait for the magic date but to remove the granite that she has installed because what on earth is the point of being afraid of the contents of your home - regardless whether the fear is rational or not?

Actually if anything, the dominant spite has come from you with this last (and unless GW's search facility is still on the fritz, ONLY) post and at this point I think you've hurt my feelings - I spent the time to share some of the basics of high-energy physics that pertain to this radiation detection problem to show you why what you are asking for cannot be done at least not yet and a brief outline of why. And you've turned around, spat on me, labeled me and some others a "mob" and "hateful" - only because we argue against emotion with reason. I didn't necessarily expect my essay above to convince those who won't be convinced but I surely didn't expect to become the target of invective.

What you all install or don't install in your homes is not of much interest to me. But I, for one, do not want things to go so far that the governments have to ban products because they are expected to prove a negative and find a way for said products to meet a phantom guideline that is scientifically impossible to establish or to prove.

BTW, anyone recognize rebccah990 from days of yore? Awfully familiarly bellicose tone for someone for whom I can't raise any posts before Saturday Nov. 15, 2008.

If you read the other radon thread floating around, you'll realize without a doubt that rebccah990 is either al or christina.

This is to the point of not funny anymore. They've been banned from here (and several other virtual communities)*numerous times* for their obnoxious behavior, name calling and slanderous lies and keep coming back under different screen names.

They contact folks from this board who've express concern about their stone and feed them misinformation. It's shameful and disgusting and let me assure you, not being done for the good of the consumer.

Mindstorm, I want to thank you for your extremely informative and important post -- and the time I know it took to hammer it together.

I am completely uninvolved, since I don't like granite for aesthetic reasons and have none in my home, but I really appreciate hearing someone inject a little actual empirical knowledge into this discussion. Your explanation of the "bowl test" was particularly helpful, namely that it's actually a cumulative measure over the time collected, and not a reflection of the emissions at any given snapshot in time.

I understand that folks are suspicious of the EPA, but honestly, if the California EPA, one of the most kneejerk institutions around, says that granite countertops do not emit enough to be of concern, I'd go with that.

Nobody is "desperately trying to shut up" Debs3. Folks are just telling her that if (despite any empiric evidence) she feels her granite countertops are a danger to her, she should absolutely remove them and select a different countertop material instead. Either that, or simply install a radon amelioration mechanism, which would be the solution in any case! It's not terribly expensive. How difficult is that to achieve peace of mind?

Is this link referring to your case again, debs3? If so, maybe some of those here with the necessary training and knowledge can make something of all the data.

To Mikeag and alias Rebccah990 -- you're right. Thorium isn't Radon. It is a radioactive element that is a frak-ing alternative to uranium and plutonium as a nuclear fuel!! And yes, it is found in carrots, albeit in such miniscule doses that we cannot, unfortunately, use them as a power source to reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels. Although interestingly fossil fuels were originally vegetables of a sort (sorry, that was waaaay OT).

Anyway, to anyone who I may have offended by my slavish devotion to reason, I apologize. Except not really (okay, now THAT was sarcastic).

If I understand the "logic" here, we should pay no attention to our car speedometer cause it has no scientific protocol for use?

And the rest of you seem to be the pot calling the kettle black. All I see is a unruly crowd picking on a lady trying to help other kitchen remodelers.

Welcome to the forum, tim p, on your very first day.

And its whispered that soon
If we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn
For those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin

They'll stone you when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone you just like they said they would
They'll stone you when you're trying to go home
They'll stone you when you're there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned

Rainy Day Women #12 & 35 - Bob Dylan

tim p: "our car speedometer cause it has no scientific protocol for use?"

Hardly. Although there is a 10% variance you are comparing apples to oranges.

That said, care to provide a link to any documentation that supports your position?

TIA.

Debs, how did you make out with the DPH testing?