We have similar behind our seating. It seems to work fine, though I'm still searching for the right stool. It's basic use is for the kids to have a place to park it for homework or snacks. Or for an adult to sit while I cook. It's definitely tight...but it works fine for us.

Thanks jalsy6. I was also wondering about which barstools are best. A small backless one will tuck nicely under the overhang and stay out of the way when not in use, but for smaller kids I think a back on the barstool might be safer.

Can you mock up your island for a few days and see how you actually feel with that amount of space?

So, you'll have 37" from the overhang to the wall...not counting the stools and people in them? Does that mean people will have to stand up and slide in the stools, for others to pass? Will this direct traffic through your work area, instead?

These are questions that I would think about, before putting in a permanent feature. Also, what else is on the island? Do you have a sink or cooktop there? Would you be able to use a work table, instead...that could move when you have more company/traffic through the house?

Stools with people in them should take up about 18 inches, leaving 19 inches for getting behind them. 19 inches is extremely tight, but not so tight that people would have to get up and push in their stools for others to pass. There's no way it would be comfortable for routine cross-traffic, but if all it is for is for people to get to seats, I think it is possible. Not ideal, mind you. And I'm assuming from your post that there isn't anything on the wall behind where the seating would be, just a wall. If there is any kind of storage or work area, then I'd say no way.

I do think a mock-up is a good idea.

I tried doing a mockup by putting a folding table in the kitchen the right distance from the wall. The way it seemed to me is that when ppl are sitting at the table I could skoot by without making them get up or slide in. It's tight but not too tight and seemed doable. Also, my kids are still small so it's really not an issue until everyone gets a little bit bigger.

Yes, the 37" is from edge of overhang to wall not counting stools/ppl sticking into the aisle. The work triangle is on the other side of the island so anyone sitting at the island or walking by is totally out of the kitchen work area. And there's a prep sink in the island so it needs to be permanent.

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"...my kids are still small so it's really not an issue until everyone gets a little bit bigger..."

That will happen, very, very quickly!!! Children grow very quickly. I would not use your children as a guide. Put two or three adults there and then see how it will work.

Will the counter be raised (42" off the floor) or counter-height?

Will there be a 3/4" to 1" thick decorative door or panel installed on the back of the island?

I'm asking b/c if you also plan to skimp on overhang, you're compounding the situation.

Lavender_Lass has a very good point...if you are blocking the path b/w the LR & DR and the bathroom & playroom with people (or stools), traffic will likely go around the front of the island instead...right through all three of the major work zones in the kitchen, including the Cooking Zone. It will be easier to get in the way of the "cooks" than to ask those seated to scrunch in more or get up and get out of the way...human nature being what it is.

How wide is the aisle b/w the island and perimeter counter (on the right)? Is it > 42" (as measured counter-to-counter, not cabinet-to-cabinet)? If so, perhaps you could reduce that aisle to 42" and put the "extra" inches on the other side.

If you have at least the minimum recommended seating overhang, you can probably "get away with" the narrower aisle if there truly is very little through traffic. However, if you have less than a 16-inch counter-height overhang or 13- or 14-inch bar-height overhang, then I think you will have more problems. (The extra inch on the overhangs is to accommodate the 1" thick decorative door or panel on the back of the island...so, 15" + 1" or 12" + 1")

Have you considered getting a larger main sink and centering it, under the window? If you didn't have the prep sink it would give you a lot more flexibility. Maybe a big work table with a wood top?

I don't know what style you're planning to have in your kitchen, but if it's open to the living room/dining room...maybe something like this would work. Obviously, I like country, but hopefully this will give you some ideas :) {{gwi:1549242}}From Lavender Lass farmhouse pictures

I have that problem but worse. I actually have 36" between the overhange and the fridge!!! I went for it. The bar seating was way too important. If 4 people are sitting at the bar, 2 will have to move out of the way to open the fridge. I would much rather have tight bar seating than no bar seating. Say la ve(sp?)!!!

My SIL has 36" b/w her island and refrigerator and hates it so much that she removed the stools completely so no one will ever try to sit there!

Her kitchen is a perfect example of shoehorning an island into a kitchen that isn't big enough for an island...she has 36" b/w the sink run and island, barely a 12" seating overhang on the island, and a 36" aisle b/w the refrigerator and island.

It is not a comfortable kitchen to work in if more than one person is attempting to work...we're constantly saying "excuse me" and asking people to move as we try to squeeze by each other!

I had 32" between the end of the peninsula (with seating) and the adjacent cabinets. It was horrible! The builder designed it at 36" of clearance, but forgot about the overhang and then screwed up how he did the peninsula counter so there was only 32". If no one was seated there, it was still horrible. You had to make sure you slowed down to edge around the barstool that was inevitably left pulled out. If someone was seated there, it was impassible. I finally removed it and cut off the laminate overhang and just painted it. I didn't care it was ugly. It was SO much better! It was still a pinch point, but at least it wasn't impassible.

Is the seating at the island "eating meals at the island" or just "visiting the cook" seating. If it's just visiting the cook seating or snack time for the kids, that's one thing but if it's actually meal times at the island that might get a little uncomfortable. Just "food" for thought.

I have one 36" aisle for 4' between the end of the island and the short side of my L. The dishwasher opens into that aisle and the baking and coffee areas are there. I don't mind that at all. It's a really convenient distance in that case because when baking I often use the counter on both sides of the aisle and can just turn and reach to get something on the other counter.

Our main aisle where most of the traffic is (including fridge, ovens, prep sink, rangetop, microwave and the path from the table to the cleanup sink) is over 48" and I like that aisle being wide. Someone can get dishes out or make a snack without disturbing the cook as they pass.

36" is really tight for an aisle with seating. When someone is sitting at the island, the tight space on that side may divert a person going to the play room through your main kitchen aisle. Are you okay with that? (Some people feel pretty strongly about minimizing traffic through their kitchen work area; I don't particularly mind it.)

If one seat would do, the drawing looks like you might have room to go a little longer on the island and put a seat at the end.

I agree with blfenton. In my case, we snack there, and sit there just to hang out while I cook (adults too). It is not a problem. Is it horrendous if someone has to walk through the sacred work triangle? Lord, no. In my house that happens whether I want it to or not. I definitely wouldn't serve a whole family meal at the island. But then...we have a dining table 10 steps away, so I don't need that. Another suggestion would be to look at the width of the aisle on the other side...could you scrap a couple inches there to allow a little more room? I have 36" there too, and it's also totally adequate (again, not what the rules dictate).

If seating is really important to you, then you should try to make it work. Nothing worse than spending a lot of money on something and having regret.
In my case, I had to make the new kitchen work for my life...and I have the kitchen I have, which is not large as some of the beautiful and spacious GW kitchens are.

A mock up is probably wise...and if it feels okay to you, then that's what matters. Not what the 'rules' say. That is actually the best advice I've gained from this forum over the past (almost ) year.

One note, a stool with a back is tough...although SusieQusie has some great ikea stools that have a shorter back that might work (do a search for her kitchen, it's really lovely). I'm currently looking at the 14" square Napoleon stool from Pottery Barn...three of those would fit nicely under my overhang.

The prep sink in the island means pots of boiling water carried from the range across the floor, so it's desirable not to encourage traffic to pass through there. Which means, ironically, shaving that aisle a little may be your better bet.

The kitchen sink is almost as close to the rangetop as the prep sink a pot of boiling water could be carried that direction. It also may depend on cooking style. I don't dump out pots of boiling water that often. We have a pasta pot with a strainer insert. We take hot things out of the oven and land them on the island more often. Even that is just for a few moments. When our friends, kids and grandkids are visiting, we check the area and say something like "hot pan in motion" so people know to stay clear for a few seconds.

Obviously, not everyone feels that way. Some want their kitchen out of the traffic path.

Your best bet it to mock it up and see how it would work for your family - but make sure to use adults, not children, as a reference point! Your kitchen will outlast your kids' childhoods, so make sure it will be practical and comfortable for years to come.

I am pretty skeptical of the NKBA guidelines myself; I think they are a great starting point, but their estimates are VERY generous. I have done just fine with smaller allowances. The key is to figure out where you are comfortable cutting back, though. It will depend on your cooking and family dynamics, so the only way to really know where you can ignore the recommendations, is to mock it up and live with it for a few weeks first.

Again, "violating the rules" may offer a frisson of transgression and rebellious freedom, but that's irrelevant. The key issue here is that you have two rooms, including a bathroom, accessible only by passing behind those stools or through your work aisle. I think that's a problem, no matter how excitingly naughty it feels.

I feel compelled to post, as I was just pondering this myself, and then found a layout I had drawn of my brother's kitchen which has your exact same layout and here are the measurements:

island to range 39"
_____________
island : :
to DW : ISLAND : island to mudroom door 35"
33" _____________

island to wall 35"

The house seems quite fine, we often have up to 12 folks in the kitchen, and it is comfortable. Cosy even.

I am planning a similar space, and don't have the required 42" either, and am now not really worried. How long does anyone sit on stools anyway?

My kitchen layout is at the link below if you are interested. 12.5 feet on the short side which equals:

For 150 inches:
- 26" cabinets plus overhang [yes, range and REF may still stick out]
- 40" walkway
- 44" island plus overhang
- 40" walkway

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen Layout

Thank you everybody for your feedback and comments.

I do not intend to serve full meals at the island. Only snacks, breakfast, and homework/kids hang-out while I work.

The main dining room table is just a few steps away from the kitchen, but since it's an open kitchen/dining/living room, I HATE that when my kids make lunches there/eat breakfast or snack on the dr table, the mess migrates into the living area and the whole house quickly becomes a wreck. That's why containing these activities to the kitchen will (hopefully!) contain the mess.

Just to be clear, the kitchen exists but I am adding an island and trying to make it fit our needs the best. I need more storage space, and I need more prep space (the little corner stretch I have between sink and stove is too small, especially if dd helps me chop vegetables, etc., and I really want a space for a breakfast bar.

While I do have about 45" from counter to counter in my work triangle, I can't cut into that space b/c there's only 39" from counter to my french door refrigerator. That's also why I am not extending the island the full length of the kitchen (and putting additional stools at the end of the island) so that there still remains some free access to the fridge and it is not totally blocked by the island.

I realize that squeezing in the seating is far from ideal. Also, I never liked having to pass through the kitchen to get to the bathroom/playroom and I probably am making it worse by adding the island.

But I do think that if I have to try and think ahead which will I regret more - adding the seating or leaving it out, I'm pretty sure that I will regret leaving it out.

fooglie1 here is my first reading of this.

your 1st post asks a "general case" question,

your 2nd post shows a wider kitchen galley corridor and a narrower aisle corridor going somewhere important while being blocked by chair backs (and the island counter has been built up to be bigger than necessary), and

your 3rd post tells me the dining room is nearby (just a few steps away from the kitchen), and that the kids will be made to eat at the kitchen counter. Sound like a breakfast nook idea.

New information in each post.

Ah ha.

Now is the right time for me to ask to see the layout of the environment surrounding the kitchen. The kitchen is in a context. It is in a surrounding environment. At least a traffic flow and sight lines, maybe more.

--

Consider an island that is not a rectangle, and you can find a shape that answers the problem you described in your long paragraph above. Some bathrooms have a vanity counter that extends over the toilet tank; it has been called a banjo shape counter or a pork chop shape counter. Something like that. People have called some counter kidney-shaped. Drawing something not-rectangular is a way to get your creative juices flowing in the right direction. For your two kids, I wonder if the island shape can be redone to suit. I too am pretty sure that you will regret leaving the seating out.

--

There is not enough space around your main sink shown in your layout. This is a big thing. Stay here and work on this too.

Have you considered switching to a counter-depth refrigerator and then shrinking your work aisle a bit, giving you more room behind the seating area? My work aisle is 39" from counter to counter and it is plenty for me! I agree with Marcolo though that you are likely to get frustrated with that tight a space if bathroom (and other) traffic needs to pass through there on a routine basis. And kids do get bigger. (For example, my middle son grew four inches while we were planning our new kitchen!)

We have a very tight spot between our peninsula and the counter opposite the main aisle in our kitchen (the pathway from mudroom/powder room/home office to the rest of the house.) The dishdrawer dw and our small sink are in this space. The overhang on the peninsula is only 8 1/2". Even with a short overhang, the distance from counter edge to counter edge is only 39". I knew I couldn't make a definitive decision about stools until I tried living with the space. I figured if we ended up nixing the stools, the short overhang wouldn't look like a mistake. When I first picked out a stool I just bought one to try it in the space. I tried to find stools with the narrowest footprint that still seemed stable. Too small of a footprint yields a stool that tips over easily. We knew we wanted backless (small children weren't an issue) and we settled on a style after trying a couple of different of styles out.

We usually have the stools tucked in and we don't use them often, but I like having them. Is it ideal? No. But I found a lot of compromises were necessary and the compromise of having the tight space with stools won out over an aisle without stools and I'm happy with the choice (and no regrets over the 6 years of using this space).

Starting off with stools with backs doesn't mean you'll have to stick with the same thing as your kids grow. The stools we ended up with make excellent small tables. So when we have company, the stools are usually being used in the living room (as tables or seating) and the aisle in the kitchen is opened up for easier passage.

{{!gwi}}

I also googled to see your first layout question, and in that one it looks as though there is a sliding door behind the seats at island, is this still there? If it is, then no way would I do the 36". We have 44", and the curtain when pushed back extends another 9", which makes 35", and it is a tight squeeze when someone is sitting there. Kitchen stools are NOT like dining room chairs that can be easily scooched in -- you have to get down at least part way to push them in. Most of the time people will opt to go through the 39" kitchen area instead.

Definitely look at other island shapes/configurations to get what you want. You could look into a "football shaped" island. This would get most of the seating out of the path, and also has the advantage of giving those seated a better view of one another -- I urge you to put in seats on two sides of an island rather than one. You will use it for seating more than you realize and will wish for the seating that puts you in a more natural dining configuration.

{{!gwi}}

I don't see your measurements posted, but could you reduce the depth of the island? I also like Davidrol's idea to consider a different shape for the island, but I cannot picture it.

the galley space is small. A french door fridge has the smallest doors. jgs7691 mentioned fridge doors.

kris ma posted a non-rectangular island that provides views inside the island. Wow!

zelmar, a wonderful space! A lot of thinking!

Hi Kris MA - our space has changed dramatically since that original post. (I really didn't want to get into it since it just confuses the matters. Basically there used to be a narrow balcony off the kitchen and storage space on the other side. We bumped out the wall into the balcony and finished off the storage space into a playroom/bathroom. Confused? Me too.) Suffice it to say there is just a wall now behind the island.

We just bought our french door fridge a year ago and will not be replacing it for a counter depth. Also we have a large family and I can not sacrifice the extra space in the fridge.

Dilly NY - the island is 24" cabs + 15" overhang. I guess I can have the cabs made slightly shallower but not much.

Zelmar - beautiful space! It really helps to visualize how it will look. Although we do have a 15" overhang so the stools will be completely out of the way when tucked in.

I thought about doing a different shape island - like below - but then I won't be able to fit a prep sink at all. Not that it's the end of the world, and maybe that is the best solution.

{{!gwi}}

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What other shape island would fit in the kitchen avoiding the fridge and the aisle?

until you show how much space there is "south" of the island, nobody can answer that. Some people have a big open space there. Big. Some people have a small open space there. Small.

If you wanted to leave your layout as you have it in your first drawing, then I would say cut your overhang to 12 inches. For the most part, 12 inches is fine for counter seating. When the stools are not in use, you gain and lose nothing. But when they are in use, you will gain those 3 inches in clearance over the design with the 15 inch overhang.

After looking (and drooling over) Zelmar's BEAUTIFUL kitchen, something struck me. I think it might feel more spacious because it's open above waist level on the left. It's one thing to scooch by someone when you have to turn your torso, but another when you can pass by without shifting your body. Would it be possible to shrink the overhang by an inch or so? I couldn't tell from the drawing whether or not the seating was at a raised portion of the counter.

As mentioned earlier, if you don't have the prep sink, you could use an island height table (with storage) that could slide about a bit, when you need more space.

If you prefer the fixed island, I think Davidro's idea is very good. Your sketch shows you still have some prep space and much better flow with seating. Also, people sitting at the island will screen a bit of the kitchen mess, from the living room and dining room. It looks like a good solution :)

Fooglie1,

1. If you really want a prep sink, okay, but I don't need or want one at all in a very similar space. Also regarding customizing shape to function, although I really like my spacious 39x54" island, 99% of the time I work on about 25x40" of it.

2. If you decided to do without a sink, I'd recommend customizing island size and shape but not bolting it down at once. Try it out first. Move it around.

3. Kids'd have no trouble perching for snacks on backless stools if backed ones were too bulky; and if stools of either type weren't working as the kids grew, they (the stools) could be given away to a good home.

But I really doubt island seating'd be more problem than everyday benefit with only those minor rooms back there. So what if a hippy guest has to scootch a bit now and then to get to the potty? You could also always lose the stools when you're expecting a crowd.

BTW, when your appliances become aged (soon enough in these days of planned obsolescence), a wider counter-depth fridge and drop-in stove top with separate under-counter oven (I chose to gain inches and really like) would gain you another, what, 5"? of kitchen width, solving 99% of this problem--even if the NKBA does disagree. :)

If you don't add a prep sink to that island, you'll still be using that same small area between the sink and the range as your primary prep space. Your habits won't change. There won't be any reason for them to. Adding an island won't help your kitchen function better at all.

I think you have some decisions to be made here. Is creating more function more important than creating a more social space? If social space is more important, then just put a counter height dining table there and call the remodel done. If getting yourself out of facing the corner while you're prepping is more important, then doing the island with a prep sink is what you need to focus on primarily.

If your table is just "steps away", then I personally don't see the need to have more than maybe 2 stools for perching at that island. Adding in seating at the island just gives you another space for the kids to mess up rather than a place to confine the mess to. Perhaps setting better ground rules as to where food or toys are allowed in the open space would give you the clutter control and the prep space you need. You created a playroom. That's where toys are allowed. You have a dining table. That's where food is allowed. Period. See if you can start that program right away and then judge the results of those efforts before trying to decide about your island.

When we remodeled we put an island into our kitchen. A person cannot sit on a stool at our island. There is no overhang. There is 30 inches between the island and the sink. Sometimes when there are 3 of us in that area at the same time it is tight. Most of the time there are only one or two people working there, and there is no problem. We love our island, even if it is a little tight. The island provides so much extra counter and storage space, that I would not do without it there. As for resale, yeah it maybe a little tight, but most of the other homes that I have seen light mine have an island. If there is no island in a kitchen like mine (house similar to mine), it looks like it is missing one.

I've been thinking about your kitchen and your desire for an island, with sink, with seating. Sometimes you just want it all and the best compromise is to prioritize, but sometimes less-than-optimal solutions, that still allow you to have all you want, is worth it. That's your decision to make.

Here is a thought for you: what if you did a drop-leaf overhang? You could use butcher block on the whole island, and hinge the overhang part. That way you can gain the aisle space when no-one is sitting at the island. I also highly suggest that you use the short end of the island (the one open to LR/DR) for an additional overhang and seat, whether fixed or drop-leaf. If the seating is so important that you are willing to compromise the walkway, then it makes sense to also maximize your seating where the walkway compromise is much less of an issue.

There are some great ideas here...the drop leaf really interesting, but then what of the stools? Do they have to get moved out of the way, as they'll still be "obstacles" of sorts, even with the leaf down. I think we too explored this idea at one point. I agree about the 12" overhang, especially if you won't be serving full on meals at the island.

Fooglie1, our layouts are very similar, with stove and sink swapped. I have a bathroom technically behind part of my island seating area. I also have a mudroom door on that same wall. It just hasn't been problematic. But then, I'm used to living in a charming (modest) house with no huge expanses of space, so I guess I don't know what I'm missing.

All I can say is if there's one thing I'm sure of it's that in kitchens like yours and mine (I assume your kitchen is maybe a bit larger than my 11.3X13), it was all about compromise. I mostly went with my gut, after posting here and getting some feedback, and mostly my gut has served me well.

Zelmar, Love your space, and those stools look great. Where are they from?