So, what's wrong with your layout?

Aisle widths are too narrow.

• By my calculation, they're, at best, 40" wide, not 41.5"
• 156" - 25" - 26" - 25" = 80" left
• 80" / 2 = 40" on each side
• But...that does not account for your refrigerator. A counter-depth refrigerator is really around 30" deep, not 25", so that's another 5" off the aisle with the refrigerator...that aisle is now 35". Even if you split the difference (2.5" on each side), you now have 37.5" aisles on both sides.

• The standard counter overhang is 1.5", not 1". Yes, you can reduce the overhang, but then you won't be protecting your cabinet's doors and drawer fronts plus pulls/knobs from spills. Unless you're getting inset, then 1" is sufficient. (But, that's a loss of depth...)
• If you have the standard overhang, now your aisles are another 1" narrower on each side (1/2" on the perimeter counters + 1/2" on the island)

Island is too small to work on

• There's no wall to keep things from falling off the back, so the depth really isn't enough.
• There's no landing space on one side of the sink
• You say the sink is on the refrigerator side, but it's not. You have it oriented to face the opposite side of the island.
• At 56" wide, if the sink is a rather small 18" wide with 1" overhang on the one side, then that leaves you with only around 37" of workspace - just enough to meet the bare minimum -- which is really not enough in my experience...42" or more is much, much better.

Miscellaneous other items:

• As noted above, your refrigerator is a counter-depth, so the doors must stick out past the adjacent items -- counters, cabinets, walls, etc.

• Corner susans are a 36" wide in each direction, not the 34" you show.

• When you have a taller pony wall behind the sink like you show, you lose space behind the sink for your faucet, etc. You have to worry about things fitting b/w the wall and the sink. A single level is more useful and frees you to be able to pick whatever faucet you want.

• 12" is really too shallow for seating. Yes, I know the NKBA says 42" high bar seating only needs 12", but the reality is that you nee need the 15". If you plan to eat any meals or even snacks at the counter, the 16" depth is not deep enough to comfortably accommodate a plate + glass -- without worrying about knocking something off the back of the overhang and down onto the lower counter.

• Oh, and as we age, bar-height seating becomes problematical, even dangerous. Even counter-height can become an issue. Raised seating is difficult for the very young and the older population.

BTW...this is the blank slate I created based on your labeled dimensions. It includes the 5'6" since you never came back to say it was right/wrong.

I am sorry I cannot comment on the kitchen layout as I struggle so much with this, but can I add I do like your idea for a TV room. I had thought about moving my kitchen to the back of my house, but then we would only have one big great room and open kitchen concept. Not having a spot to keep TV watching more secluded really bothered me.

I hope you can get everything you need/want.

P.S. I know you don't want this thread to derail, but gotta say you do some great pastry work!

buehl: Wow, you put in an enormous
amount of thought and work! I can’t thank you enough! There were several areas I was stressing
over, this appears to address much of those areas.

MW hood: I couldn’t
agree with you more. DH was a harder sell on the induction vs. gas than myself
so was being a bit pouty about the stand-a-lone vent. He sees the light again! Yes, the hood needs to extend beyond the range 3”
both sides, depth needs to be adequate – again, thank you.

The pantry is
important (canning/food storage, and I want pull-out shelving) as is the big spice/herb cabinet, thanks for
keeping that in mind.

Corner susans are a
36" wide in each direction, not the 34" you show. Something I
didn’t know, was basing first cab measurements on what I’ve got now – they are
laminate custom sizes I’m thinking.

Oh, and as we age,
bar-height seating becomes problematical, even dangerous. Even counter-height
can become an issue. Raised seating is difficult for the very young and the
older population. I concur. We don’t
use the raised bar to sit any more, but I put ‘stuff’ on it, which is why I’d
kept it. I can re-locate my ‘stuff’
(cooking items). Also, you are keeping in mind ‘retirement’, (as we age), and
having cared for both parents and getting older myself, I see how important
certain age-factor considerations are!

Counter Overhang:
Another item I was basing on our old laminate countertop. I’d prefer the 1.5” overhang you’ve added; I
now pull out my DW door to affix the pasta machine to the larger lip that
creates (another problem area which concerned me, solved).

Also, I long ago moved the kitchen table/far chair back
against the window since we don’t use it, however, ‘never say never’ when it
comes to selling or small dinner
parties (we do plan to retire here, tho’) so that lack of actual traffic space between the island and the table was deeply troubling
me. However, the kitchen nook is 5’, 1/2”.
DH said “5 and a half” and I wrote that literally as 5’, 6”. Oops.

Island: Many
excellent points! Never having one, using boxes only does not give an adequate
idea of what is needed.

Other: too much
to say I love! The trash at the butcher
block in the island looks ideal.

Other than the eat-in nook I am reasonably sure the
measurements are accurate, but seeing I made a mistake there, I want to
re-measure.

A FEW THINGS:

I need (don’t laugh!) to spend some time looking at the
layout, drawing each side – I have a harder time looking at overhead than I do
front views: Front views give me an idea of cabinet/storage space gained/lost
and where things will flow/go.

I took down the wall
and extended the Kitchen into the Great Room by 18". That's only 2"
more than you already had the pony wall + counter. In reality, you've gained
space in the Great Room b/c there are no longer any seats at a too-shallow
counter taking up additional space. I must be slow, I am a little confused
here and need to study your layout. I think
I see what you are saying… I need to draw out all overhead (tv room, kitchen,
great room), (re-measure for accuracy), to visualize how the fridge will look.
It seems to jut out into the Great Room and I just can’t visualize it, yet.

I’d love to make the tv room a full pantry – my dream! However, I’ve given up my unused formal dining
room for DH to have a ‘man cave’ – putting this sweetly and mildly, he’s very messy and not as ‘trainable’ as I’d
thot (we married late in life, both unmarried and living alone all our lives). He
offered to give me his man-cave for the whole kitchen, I declined because I
need him out of the Great Room – that’s not under debate! He’s given up quite a
lot to live here. Over the evolution of
the kitchen re-vamp, he’s also given up more space in his man-cave, and as of current plans, it’s
been narrowed to only 7’, 2.5” W x 15’, 4” L (which is tiny, only enough room for his big
tv at one end, a double recliner at the other).
I like your idea of the pass-through (and being able to close it off
(vital!). I won’t watch what he watches –
tv won’t be positioned correctly. I
watch the great room tv (news only) while working at my current prep area, then
I concentrate.

I sure wanted that 2nd super susan. Again, I need to draw out each side to see
where I can put things.

I’ve never been wild about ‘open concept’ to the great room and
would miss the somewhat private
feeling and separation the bar/counter with overhead cabs give when working in
the kitchen. Would rather keep it, but let me 'chew on it'.

Need a place for a wine fridge. I'll look at wine fridge measurements but
the single seat at the island seems about right, and we won’t use that single
seat... though I kinda like that too!

Give me some time to look over this please (have to work today and Saturday),
and please hang in there with me! Thanks
buehl!

mobuddy89: Thank
you for your input – I am excited about
having a separate (albeit tiny) room for us to keep our ‘mess’ and tv viewing
away from most the house (and buehl’s idea of a pass through is genius!) and
have read some are moving away from formal dining rooms (bought the house for
that, used it twice in 19 years!)

Oh, you’re not alone in the struggle! Thank goodness for those who’ve been through
this process. While we can opt to keep
what we want, discard other ideas, it’s wise to listen to others, re-think our
preconceptions, get new/improved ideas.
I’d make a million mistakes I’m sure!
I’ve stressed, cried, and struggled.
We all need help in something.

P.S. I know you don't
want this thread to derail, but gotta say you do some great pastry work! I
almost didn’t post the photo collage as it seemed almost like a ‘brag’ when I
put it up, but realized we all have different needs and it’s hard to express
this with words at times. Thanks for your kind words. Too many hobbies!

''...to visualize how the fridge will look. It seems to jut out into the Great Room..."

The refrigerator has decorative door end panels to make it look almost like furniture and built-in. You could take 2.5" and put in a 24" deep or so wall, but the doors will still have to stick out past the wall to open fully. (If you turn the 2x4 studs 90 degrees, a 4.5" thick wall becomes 2.5" thick. If you need outlets or possibly light switches on the wall, that may not work, but I think it would be fine in this case. Although -- I like the look of panels better than a wall, but that's my personal preference!)

Actually, there were three reasons I put the refrigerator there...

(1) It's on the periphery and lets outsiders access it without getting in your way while working in the Kitchen. You could probably take another 3" or so and have an even wider aisle if you like -- but I would not take any more than 3" so the aisle b/w the table and island remains wide enough for traffic.

(2) It helps the overall workflow -- it's near the island Prep Zone and the Cooking Zone.

(3) It hides the Cooking Zone a bit

Oh, and a fourth -- it's closer to the entry where groceries are brought into the house so it makes it easier to unload groceries.

.

Wine cooler/refrigerator...it could go in the island. If you don't need the seat, that would be the perfect location for it! Most are 24"W x 24"D, but I think there are some that are 18"W x 24"D.

.

"...the bar/counter with overhead cabs..."

I've always found those overhead cabinets over a peninsula to be an annoyance -- when you want to talk to someone, you have duck down to see them. And, not that I think it's important if you plan to live in this home "forever", but those overhead cabs are now very outdated.

Take your time -- it's a holiday weekend and the Forum is always slow during these times. Spend some "down time" with your DH!

If I have time, I will re-do the layout with the 5' 1/2" measurement instead of 5'6".

Oh, the trash -- did you mean you like the idea of an 18" trash pullout next to the prep sink? If so, I'll add that along with the wine cooler to the layout. I'll probably remove the seat at the island to maximize space. With the table so close, you really don't need it -- unless you want to sit while working at the island. The table is close enough for visitors.

@2Many, I have also done some pastry work so it is easy to appreciate your efforts. Given that, I know you are not into finishes yet and I don't remember reading, but do you do tempering of chocolate? What do you like to roll your pastry doughs on? I am not one that could handle marble counters and the etching, but I do realize its importance in bakery (it is not only nice for the looks!). I bought a marble board for this purpose and I don't worry about it etching as it is truly utilitarian.

I know you want to back off on pastry, but I would think about how you want to incorporate some potential work into your layout.

buehl: Fridge: I think I’d
want end panels matching the cabs, as you said, but need to draw it out, stare
at that space a bit (ha ha). Oh, and a
fourth -- it's closer to the entry where groceries are brought into the house
so it makes it easier to unload groceries. Thank goodness for women who
actually buy a ton of groceries and think like this!

I've always found
those overhead cabinets over a peninsula to be an annoyance -- when you want to
talk to someone, you have duck down to see them. The current overhead at the peninsula are a
bit higher but still within reach for me, so the top of my head actually clears
them! I see your other points, too.
Below are my first plans, with upper cabs at same height as current ones, to
give example. Ignore the blue circles… you
know what those are for! Yes, outdated, but as with open concept, I do prefer some of the outdated looks for various reasons.

Wine fridge: yes,
I think my average measurements for an 18 or so bottle dual zone are at most
(for now, they keep changing the darned things) 20” D x 14” W x 26” H (just
looked quickly at Amazon for averages).
Not a built-in so we can change it out when/if breaks. Do need a few inches for the vent in the back
and perhaps a bit on the sides for heat.

Oh, the trash -- did
you mean you like the idea of an 18" trash pullout next to the prep sink?
If so, I'll add that along with the wine cooler to the layout. I'll probably
remove the seat at the island to maximize space. Yes, love that idea. I’ve got
one of those step-on to open trash cans and love it coz it’s hands free and my
hands are often covered in food, but having the trash can at the island (where
the butcher block will be) seems so handy: Pull open the trash cabinet and swipe! I don’t put everything in the disposal. Now…
if you think of a way to make it hands-free?!
JK!

I hate to pile anything else on here: DH roasts coffee
beans, makes our coffee (did I mention he was messy? Real messy?!) and our
coffee maker, grinder, roaster, espresso maker are scattered about (along with beans, grinds, chaff, water)… would love
to have a coffee bar that doesn’t take
up my space. There seems to be no room
for this.

I'll also ask this: I use a toaster oven (ancient) also. Just read the other day someone suggested a microwave/convection oven to do away with the toaster oven. Do you know if that works? My microwave is not convection.

Take your time
Thanks so much buehl. I understand this
is an ever-evolving process, and appreciate your patience. Hard to fit work, et
al into this but I want to get it done so we can begin. However, I’d rather get it right, then get it done fast.

buehl: Forgot to add this: I like the 30" single basin (apron front) that you put in, as opposed to the 33". DH wanted the 36" (not sure why). I think the inner dimensions of the 30" are plenty big enough for the largest items.

mobuddy89: Yes, it’s important to think about materials for countertops
(at any stage), as well as layout for different tasks.

I currently also use a utilitarian only marble slab and will
continue with that. I do tempering
(changing to induction fits into that need well, I’m thinking).

I’ve got the original laminate countertops for rolling
doughs (fondant, pastry, modeling chocolate, pasta) and am thinking I’ll go with quartz. Really wanted granite, but am re-thinking the
care required – I can be very messy while cooking. Sometimes utilitarian must override looks –
darn it. I think either will work far
better than laminate – and I need a very large space for all of that as I often
work on multiples at the same time. Tho’
I’ll back off on the pastry work as I get older, I still seem to require tons
of prep/work space for pastas, doughs, and other prep work. Laminate has the advantage I can scrub hard, get rid of food color stains. But I don't care for the way it looks.

I’ll use butcher block (which I intend to incorporate into
the island) for veggie prep (much of the 48” workspace on the Great Room side of buehl’s
island) – something I do an enormous amount of.
On buehl’s plans, there’s a 39” x 42” workspace on the other side of the
prep sink which I think might suffice for dough work in addition to the area
across from it – that will all need to be smooth surface, I’m thinking.

What surface to you use for pastry dough work? Do you find one surface better than the other? I make a lot of pasta to freeze now, and the dough's are much the same.

I was blessed to take a pro-level 12 week baking course in Switzerland many years ago (we lived in neighboring Germany). I really enjoyed the pastry work on the granite top. We did our tempering on it and rolling out of some doughs (had a beautiful pastry sheeter to use). It was pretty close to Saint Cecilia granite. Never stained. If I did a lot of breads, I would consider a John Boos top but for pastry and chocolate, granite.

First I'm so glad you talked your hubby into an induction cooktop and a separate hood. As we age, it's just a better choice. Plus with the low simmer, think about what you'll be able to do with things such as melting chocolate. And since I believe you're coming from electric, it should be an easy change for you. Plus it's just safer in terms of health reasons.

And those desserts look positively gorgeous and scrumptious. If I lived nearer to you, you'd be my new best friend. ;)

I love what buehl came up with for you. It works very well.

Also, you are keeping in mind ‘retirement’, (as we age), and having cared for both parents and getting older myself, I see how important certain age-factor considerations are!

That's why we are switching to counter height in our new build. Plus this way we have the extra space to use on the counters.

putting this sweetly and mildly, he’s very messy and not as ‘trainable’ as I’d thot (we married late in life, both unmarried and living alone all our lives)

LMAO. I understand completely. Mine is not trainable either. We met 13 years ago and in my new build I decided I can't fight it, so I'll make it easier on myself. (Please explain to me why DH needs 3 weeks worth of receipts and coin from his pockets on his night stand? LOL)

That's why DH will have his own coffee/breakfast/beverage tall cabinet. If he leaves the pods on the counter, or the dirty spoon, I can just closet the cabinet doors. (He does eventually put them in the DW)

It's why the dog now will have her own appliance garage. We feed the dog RAW and she has besides the bowl that needs to be cleaned out every single time, lots of vitamins and specialty things she takes. Now when DH leaves them out on the counter, I can just shove them back into the appliance garage and it's out of sight.

(Plus he will have his own office/man cave)

I hate to pile anything else on here: DH roasts coffee beans, makes our coffee (did I mention he was messy? Real messy?!) and our coffee maker, grinder, roaster, espresso maker are scattered about (along with beans, grinds, chaff, water)… would love to have a coffee bar that doesn’t take up my space. There seems to be no room for this.

How about making an appliance garage to the left of the cleanup sink under the cabinets there?

I sure wanted that 2nd super susan. Again, I need to draw out each side to see where I can put things.

Make sure when you draw everything out, you draw it out as drawers and not cabinets. Drawers are so much more efficient, easier as we age and can store more than a cabinet. Even a cabinet with roll out shelves!

Corner cabinets tend to be the least efficient. I'm personally doing corner drawers.

I’ve never been wild about ‘open concept’ to the great room and would miss the somewhat private feeling and separation the bar/counter with overhead cabs give when working in the kitchen. Would rather keep it, but let me 'chew on it'.

Put a header up and while it won't be a true separation, it will give you a visual separation between the rooms. This can be a drywall header, or a wooden beam or???

Don't know what height your kitchen ceilings are, but if they're tall, you could even drop the ceiling in the kitchen a bit to visually change the feel.

Oh, you’re not alone in the struggle! Thank goodness for those who’ve been through this process. While we can opt to keep what we want, discard other ideas, it’s wise to listen to others, re-think our preconceptions, get new/improved ideas. I’d make a million mistakes I’m sure! I’ve stressed, cried, and struggled. We all need help in something.

Very wise words. I know my house and my kitchen would not be what it is today (or will be very shortly) without having the help of all the people on these forums. But even when it's hard, one needs to listen to the advice with an open mind.

Not a built-in so we can change it out when/if breaks. Do need a few inches for the vent in the back and perhaps a bit on the sides for heat.

And they will break! Smart. That's what we did in our condo. Had a slide in one that could be replaced easily when it broke. Made the space I believe 19"-20" wide for an 18" cabinet? Don't remember. Good thing too because 8 months after we sold the condo, the wine fridge finally bit the dust. Our buyer I believe did find another one on Amazon.

Now… if you think of a way to make it hands-free?! JK!

Not a joke. They actually do make one that can be opened by just pushing against it with a knee or elbow. It's made by Blum. See? Your prayers are answered!

Really wanted granite, but am re-thinking the care required – I can be very messy while cooking. Sometimes utilitarian must override looks

I've had no problems with granite and rolling out dough, pastry, etc.

I'm not a fan of corner cabinets. I would rather have the storage in drawers on either side and have a blind corner if it meant that other cabinets on my run would be small like the 12" wide cabinet next to the pantry. To me a 12" cabinet is useless except to collect junk. ( I say that having one in my rental in FL and I hate it.)

So with that in mind, I made a few changes to beuhl's layout.

First I added the appliance garage under the cabinets to the left top. I made it a 36" wide appliance garage.

I voided the bottom corner cabinet. Or another solution would be to make it a cabinet drawer that opens onto the TV room side. While it won't help for kitchen stuff, it might hold things like extra blankets or whatever for the tv room.

I moved the sink down towards the pantry 12". This now gives you a 27" wide storage drawer to the left of the clean up sink. The glass storage above to the right of the sink is now 24" wide.

Additionally, the cabinet to the right of the stove is now 38" wide which allows for a lot more things to be stored.

Hands-free trash ==> Blum servo drive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03SZ6NW8I5s

mobuddy89; cpartist:
So great to hear about granite being durable, it was my first “pretty” choice… I’ll
revisit granite for sure now, was concerned about staining. John Boos makes me
drool and I didn’t realize they did countertops! The things you learn…

cparist: First I
had to change about the induction! He
was the harder sell. Again, I thank you
for your wisdom, and when I get older, I will thank you over and over.

I’ve been talking to DH about counter height in the bath
reno’s (later!).

(Please explain to me
why DH needs 3 weeks worth of receipts and coin from his pockets on his night
stand? LOL) Oh you made me laugh so hard! I’m not alone, I’m not
alone!!!! If only he’d keep his
messes to his nightstand! What’s up with wiping chip-dusted hands on his pants,
too? Which brings me back to granite staining concerns… we’re both messy in the
kitchen. I see people doing stain tests,
that scares me. Guess when we get to that bridge I’ll be doing my own.

How about making an
appliance garage to the left of the cleanup sink under the cabinets there? Well,
that’d be perfect, except I want that workspace for myself!Well, let me think about it some more… might be where it must go.
Hmmph.
Corner drawers?
Huh? Picture? Wait, I found
one! Is this what you’re speaking of? What
will they think of next? Well, that’s
going in the plans! Yep, going with drawers on the base cabinets (again, thanks
to you, buehl, and so many others posting!).
What about the extra tall things I have tho’ – not many, a 2-drawer base
cabinet?

Ceilings are 9 ft tall.
I need storage for china and other things I use rarely (and pulled out
the the dining room), so would like cab’s going to ceiling with moulding (planned
for 2 sets of upper cabs, stacked, coz I don’t want to open a tall door).

Keeping an open mind is difficult when you’ve got ‘set’
ideas and are told differing opinions, but it’s good not to be stagnant in one’s
life. We can all learn from one another.

Replaceable – and that’s
also why I am moving away from a built-in micro, leaning toward a garage to
hold ‘average’ sized microwaves but am learning there’s no such thing! However, buehl’s 15” deep uppers all around helps
with that issue.

caligirl5; cpartist:
What!!! I bet DH could make that! It’s what I call a push-pull (but I didn’t
think to use it for that trash cab).

.

cpartist: I'm not a fan of corner cabinets. I would
rather have the storage in drawers on either side and have a blind corner if it
meant that other cabinets on my run would be small like the 12" wide
cabinet next to the pantry. To me a 12" cabinet is useless except to
collect junk. That makes sense…

So with that in mind,
I made a few changes to beuhl's layout. You’all work too fast for my
brain. But I’ve been working and attempting
to study the new layout every few minutes (not
ideal)…

First I added the
appliance garage under the cabinets to the left top. I made it a 36" wide
appliance garage. Oh, I see where it is now… kind of.Seriously, I need to draw the ‘side views’ version of this. I am apparently daft when it comes to looking
at overhead views.

Ok, I just deleted several questions… because I got very
confused but I see now… I have to spend
time looking at these, and drawing what I call the side views.

No, he won’t put his blankets up, he’ll leave it out, and I need that space! (big grin).

Last question, then I back to work for me… uh, there’s a 59”
space between the island and the table where the island chair will be removed (buehl,
if you’ve addressed this please don’t be frustrated, I’m clearly sloooow in
reading layouts and understanding changes to them!) Could that not be used somehow? I’m guessing not unless I did something odd
with the island, and I don’t think I’d like that. Great, now I’m typing my thoughts.

Ok, honestly, I'm not totally thrilled with the open concept, and I don't want to put a header or lower the ceiling, just not the same... but, if it works better, it works better.

Thank
you everyone! Sunday I’ll look all this over thoroughly! I can’t believe all the great ideas!

I'll add one more thing: noticed a comment regarding dishes in drawers in base cab's on another post. I do keep my my most used dishes in drawers right beside my DW and love that. So much easier than reaching overhead when unloading.

You have to read Karin_mt's threads here on this forum about checking whether it's truly a granite or quartzite and how to tell if it will hold up. I had a busy granite and it never stained in the 6 years I had it.

Yes that's the drawer cabinet I'm talking about. However it works in my kitchen because the drawers on my cooktop/oven side are 42"w, 42"w, and 36"w. You do have the two larger drawers on the island, so I'm guessing either way will work. It's what works best for you.

Ceilings are 9 ft tall. I need storage for china and other things I use rarely (and pulled out the the dining room), so would like cab’s going to ceiling with moulding (planned for 2 sets of upper cabs, stacked, coz I don’t want to open a tall door).

I'm doing 2 sets of uppers for my 10' ceilings, although most of the upper, uppers will be for showing off my "stuff". Things like pretty plates and glassware.

and that’s also why I am moving away from a built-in micro, leaning toward a garage to hold ‘average’ sized microwaves but am learning there’s no such thing! However, buehl’s 15” deep uppers all around helps with that issue.

I don't think beuhl designed it as a built in MW. I think she designed it to go on a shelf right below the upper cabinet.

Ok, honestly, I'm not totally thrilled with the open concept, and I don't want to put a header or lower the ceiling, just not the same... but, if it works better, it works better.

A header or beam would be to delineate the two different spaces. There are lots of things you could do to visually define the kitchen as separate from the living room. I actually have an idea that's similar to mine since you now won't have a seat at the island. Headed to dinner right now, but will try to work on it after dinner.

Had an idea, but realized it wouldn't work.

However here are some header ideas to show you what I was thinking:

Volunteer Park Residence 05 · More Info

Kitchen - Rustic · More Info

Kitchen and Bath Remodel · More Info

Chewuch · More Info

Eat in Kitchen with Fire Place · More Info

A couple more...

First, I fixed the Dining Nook's dimensions.

For the Coffee Center, I took 25.5" from the depth of the TV room for a Coffee Center in the TV Room but close to the Kitchen.

The door the TV room is moved to accommodate it...and the Pantry & Spice Cabinet moved as well.

That actually gave you more cabinet/counter room -- 6 more inches! So, there's now an 18" cabinet to the right of the DW.

I removed the seat at the island and put in an 18"W freestanding wine cooler.

In Layout #2, I kept the same island depth of 42".

In Layout #3, I increased the depth of the island by 9" (to 51"). This gives you more workspace on the "top" of the island.

I also moved the table to the far right and put in a bench. That frees up space for the aisle b/w the table and the island.

In both, I added a 9" cabinet to the left of the prep sink to give you more work depth on the top of the island. It's a perfect place to store cutting boards!

I kept the corner susan b/c it does provide functional storage as well as moves the sink 12" away from the corner.

The 18" cabinet and 24" DW provide you with plenty of workspace on both sides of the cleanup sink and/or space for dirty dishes while allowing you to still have workspace on all sides of the sink.

Layout #2:

.

.

Layout #3:

.

Turning the wine cooler to face the Great Room.

Also, those small circles are support legs for the counter.

Layout #3 gives you a lot more storage - you now have 51" of full-depth storage on the back of the island.

.

BTW...you asked about the 18" extension.

In your original layout, you showed:

• 4" thick pony wall
• 12" overhang
• Together, they extended 16" beyond the sink counter.

That's where I got the 16" you are already taking from the Great Room.

So, using the 16" by taking down the pony wall and eliminating the counter + 2" gives you the 18-inch extension.

buehl; cpartist: Love,
love, love!!! First and most importantly, DH and I thank you both for your
time, work, and contributions (you two make a fantastic team). Your inputs are not in vain - once I printed the 1st layout last evening,
I could *see* it. It flows, it
works. I’m amazed, and a convert to open
concept (should I love you or be angry with you? I choose love!) Showed the layouts both of you worked on to
DH last night and he could see it right away too. He read through the entire
thread this morning to better understand things

The new layouts this morning (#2 and #3) are even better… you’ve kept our needs in
mind, come up with creative ideas, more of everything, and it continues to work
so
beautifully. If you charged for
this, we couldn’t afford you! Didn’t
mention this before, but the 27” deep bases, 15” deep uppers… wonderful! I could go on and on, but don’t want to turn this into a novel.

Today I’m working on what I call the ‘side views’ and I’m
sure I’ll get some things wrong so I politely request that you both (and any
other GW’ers with ideas) hang in there with us through this process as we ask questions
and request advice (DH and I both have some already, but I want to work on the
side views first, and show DH the various layouts with the other rooms added,
as there are bound to be more questions).
We value your experience, ideas, and opinions.
Going offline now, just wanted to let you all know,
your time and input(s) have not been wasted! Thank you

buehl: Briefly... if you post more layouts, could they possibly be a bit larger than 500 x 376 pixels? The first layout was 960 x 720 and we can read it, while the others blur when printed or while working on in my old photoshop software. I know this goes against rules/advice for posting pic's, so if you can't, I understand.

I think the problem is the software for this site lowers the pixels for the photos. I know I've posted quite large photos and they wind up at a set pixel length and width.

I only offered some suggestions based on my own experience and on buehl's really excellent designs. Please give her all the credit as she deserves it.

cpartist: Stop being modest. Yes, buehl has worked hard on
the layouts, but you’ve added a lot. I’ve
seen many posts where you two work well together. buehl is amazing!

I believe you’re correct – I’ve uploaded images
in similar sizes and some enlarge too much (that pastry image) and some get their
pixels squashed (the plans I drew up)! buehl is about to hate me...

buehl: You are going to hate us… I started working on side
views, trying to figure some of the dimensions you’d not put in… and realized
something was way off. Our dimensions. I’m so
sorry! DH and I re-measured (twice) just
now and we’ve got them accurate – if you add them up they seem off by a smidge due to the walls not being plum. You’ve/we’ve got more room at the big sink
wall with the pass thru, and for the extra width you added to the island, if
that softens the blow. Please don’t be
too angry. I’ve drawn up the dimensions as they truly are/will be when the wall
is moved back between the TV Room and the Kitchen… the drywall separating the 2
rooms is 4-7/8” thick but I put 5”. The
kitchen wall that now reads 156-3/4” – just leave at 156 since that’s what you’ve
worked so hard on. I sincerely apologize. I’ve made the type as large as possible in
case they get pixel-squished.

Also, DH says since there is a coat closet on the other side
of the drywall at the fridge, he wants to put in an access panel there in case
the plumbing fails – for easy access. That fridge is kinda heavy for us. Great idea, huh?!
Take a break from us, we can get back to the
layouts when you’ve got time. I say ‘we’ euphemistically, as you’ve done all the work. I will work on them also! I’m behind on the
side views now, so it’ll take me longer on those as well.

Ouch!

Yes, ouch for
buehl. To be very clear buehl, the only
measurement that changes in your layout is the pass-through wall. Rather than 178” it’s 183.5” – another 5.5”
wider. This gives us either a wee bit more
room for drawers/cabs or a bit wider opening to get DH’s recliner through the
doorway (or perhaps a bit of both?).

The open concept area at the fridge edge and island’s end is
also 183.5, not 182, only 1.5” wider. No
changes there unless you’d planned them.

DH thinks the coffee bar in the TV room is genius – I concur
and we’ve been discussing ideas for incorporating a mini-fridge underneath and
his tv above. I love the new location of
the pantry! Makes the kitchen appear larger and it continues to flow
beautifully. Genius.

No worries! You did much, much better than my KD did!

Interesting about the picture sizes, I didn't do anything different!

.

CPArtist...you have been a big help and inspiration! You quite often have great tweaks that I miss.

You have also been a big inspiration for our future build. I've gotten many, many great ideas from you!

Thank you buehl. Your advice was in the back of my mind the whole time I was designing my kitchen. (Yes I switched the prep sink and cleanup sink but believe me I spent many agonizing hours thinking about it both ways. Hopefully I won't regret my decision. LOL.)

2many, the extra room gives you a chance to change the end cabinet on the right of the fridge to a 23" cabinet instead of the 18" it is now. Bigger is always better (at least in this case.)

OK...here are the new dimensions in a blank slate - before any changes from your original layout.

Kitchen & Dining Room:

.

TV Room:

.

And here's Layout #4 -- split into two pictures so, hopefully, the pictures won't be reduced in size.

Note that I put in more detail in the TV Room....I think your husband will like it, it gives him "his" space, complete with everything he needs while watching TV!

.

Kitchen:

.

.

TV Room:

.

.

Kitchen Zone Map:

Note the alternate table and island.

.

buehl; cpartist: Again, we are in your debt. Today I'm working on your Layout #4, kitchen and TV rooms - preparing questions, inserting ideas... Making a few alterations to TV Room (moving recliner/tv), moving the wine fridge back to kitchen because I loved that... May take me a day or two, so again and again, I politely plead you both hang in there with us throughout this process. We need your input, ideas, and help. I won't comment here on everything we love, but suffice to say we are thrilled, and I so want to delete my awful original kitchen plans - will leave them in hopes others can learn from my mistakes and see how things can flow, work more efficiently, and look far better if one is willing to change one's mindset. DH and I are fortunate that we can move plumbing, a wall here and there.

buehl: Quick question - at the 36" corner susan (whether it is a lazy susan or corner drawers) are those measurements 10" next to the sink and 10" next to the 26" W you have marked as 'trays'?

DH and I suffer the same affliction: we can’t ‘see’ layouts
until printed. The new layouts print
beautifully – thank you! Providing the blank slate dimensions is so helpful as well.

cpartist: Quick question: the extra
room gives you a chance to change the end cabinet on the right of the fridge to
a 23" cabinet instead of the 18" it is now. I’m not seeing 18” to
right of fridge, did you mean to the right of the DW? DH may need a bit more space to get his
furniture through the door… buels’s layout #4 addresses this, but I’m thinking
of perhaps dividing some of that space to create a wee bit more cab there and widen the TV Room doorway if that will be enough (??)

Yes I meant the right of the DW.

Buehl gave you a 38" wide door opening to the tv room. That should be more than enough room to get a lounger in there. I wouldn't be concerned.

I can also answer your corner question. The corner susan or corner drawer would need 12" on each side of the corner, not 10".

There are 12 inches b/w the corner and the sink. 36" corner susans (or drawers) are 36" in each direction. Those 36 inches are 24" x 24" in the corner and another 12" on each side of the corner --- for a total of 36" x 36".

I took the difference b/w the old & new dimensions and split them b/w the doorway and the cabinets on the left.

• That made the 18" cabinet in Layout #3 that is to the right of the DW 21" -- thus giving you better storage and more workspace
• The doorway to the TV Room is now 38" wide -- is that wide enough for the recliner? You didn't give us the dimensions of the recliner, so I guessed.

Note that Layout #4 with all the measurements still has the Wine Cooler in the island. I only took it out & put it in the TV Room for the Zone Map so you could see possibilities.

I will wait until you're ready to do any additional work.

Have fun & happy Independence Day! :-)

Cross posted!

BTW...both the corner susan and the corner drawers are good options. Use whichever you prefer!

The corner susan or corner drawer would need 12" on each side of the corner, not 10". Thank you, I wasn't sure and couldn't tell, so was guessing and knew that guesses don't work in real life!

I took the difference b/w the old & new dimensions and split them b/w the doorway and the cabinets on the left. Wonderful! I didn't see that - not there yet... Thank you! Yes, 38" is more than enough room. Is there ever anything you don't think of or know??!! (Compliment)

...still has the Wine Cooler in the island. Again, I missed that but I'm not on the kitchen layout yet, and made an assumption. Duh. I'm still working on side view of tv room coffee bar to make sure tv/coffee brewing will work (steam might harm tv so need to get the drawings exact) - now using graphs as suggested.

Have fun & happy Independence Day! :-) DH is working on a hobby, I'm working on this, leftovers (oh the horror!) rather than planned BBQ tonight - we'll celebrate tomorrow! Thank you both! You two, as well : - )

buehl; cpartist (and anyone else!): Questions/advice/critique
please! I had to make some (small?) changes and once again need help, please.

buehl, thanks for not being angry with us. Life lesson #362: Measuring Mad Makes
Mistakes (DH and I had a tiff that day and communication suffered). I don’t mean to be so repetitious or embarrass
you, but we can never thank you enough
for all your time and work!

cpartist: thank you for commenting on not going with built-in
MW and wine fridge – wasn’t positive if that was the direction to go… now I am.
You told me about the corner
drawers (vs. lazy susan) but said you didn’t care for them. I love them!

Will divide this in a few posts so questions or revisions
might be easier for you.

Layout #4: TV Room
Only

DH wants a specific look in his TV Room, so we’d planned to
build his TV Cabinet… and now we will incorporate that wonderful coffee/snack
bar! Tho’ older/slower, we are both
DIY’s, capable, and creative; I’ve both made and refinished furniture.

Keeping the coffee bar, mini fridge, MW. Won’t
use the sink b’coz DH is installing water filtration system under the sink at
the pass through, and he always uses filtered water for coffee.

Need reclining seating (legs/feet up) (space is too narrow
for two recliners and table between), so our only option is a double recliner
with console in the middle for drinks/snacks.
Therefore, I’ve moved that back to the other wall. Off Topic: This
leaves no room for side tables so we are doing wall lights above and slightly
to each side of recliner.

Below is revised overhead layout of TV Room. TV must clear the grinder, coffee maker,
espresso machine (roaster stored in kitchen, to be used on stovetop at vent). Coffee
maker, grinder, espresso machine will go on slide-out to keep it away from tv
screen while using (bar is 25.5” deep for this purpose as you’d already
planned). May incorporate a garage, not sure at this point in design. Cups, snacks, raw beans, roasted beans go
below coffee bar as will the mini fridge, microwave.

Question: He says he won’t mind walking to get water from sink
at pass-through – is this functionally
correct for him? (please say yes!)

Question: To make tv low enough for comfy viewing with head
back on recliner (spent some time mimicking this, ha ha!), needed to lower the
bar to 30”H. DH says that’s fine, but
what do you think? He’s 6’ tall. I don’t see a way around this.

and now for the kitchen...

Layout #4 Kitchen, Overhead:
See Layout below

We love: Work triangle; 27” deep base, 15”
deep uppers (3” is a lot!); new pantry location and position (as you say, think
about how much time you spend in zones, how much time you spend at each
location in comparison); work zones are spacious; pass through is thoughtful – gives cleanup person
something to look at rather than wall, opens up the room and allows window light
from TV Room window to come thru; cutting board storage location; prep sink is
generous so can also wash dishes as I work w/o leaving triangle; location of
cleanup zone to dish/glass/silverware drawers and cab is ideal; love the legs
beside the wine fridge… I could go on, but you get that we love everything!

I’ve made a few changes IN RED (and feel like one of those
awful teachers who slashes homework with nasty remarks! Needed a color that would show up!), although
some are not changes, just measurement guesses I believe are correct.

Added old heavy wrought iron trellis on eating nook wall to
hang cast iron skillets as I’m tired of bending/lifting for them – use cast
iron often.

Want to keep table and chairs as they go with future aesthetics,
table is 40” x 40” so I changed that… which I thought made that generous 51”D island too wide. Narrowed it back to buehl’s original 42” D. But
so loved the size of it that I changed it back…

NKBA Guidelines says: Traffic Clearance at Seating: In a seating area where no traffic passes
behind a seated diner, allow 32 inches of clearance from the counter/table edge
to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area (done already). If
traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36 inches to edge past
or at least 44 inches to walk past.

Question: So if we keep the island at 51”D
(2, 24 base cab’s) is 44” from countertop to edge of table too narrow?
Everything else is so spacious now, I don’t want to make assumptions. Question: Would you push the island
over to the fridge side 1”??

Realized
making the island 102” and having to extend it further into the Great Room
would mean a too narrow walkway between it and furniture in the Great Room
(yes, furniture changes, but saved years for these pieces and they will never
be replaced and can’t be repositioned).
The fridge is fine as is, no furniture in the way. DH and I spent a day measuring, discussing,
and I had to cut the island to 95” with countertops (92 cabinets only). I literally cried over the loss of the
cutting board cabinet. Also, to keep it
at 92 (wanted every inch I could get) I bumped the whole island up 1” toward
the DW and sink.

Thinking I
can make or buy cutting boards/cooling racks/cookie sheet tray holder and put
under sink base…
Questions: Do you see any measurements I’ve guessed
wrong? Anything you would revise given
measurement constraints? Slash away if so!

Question: At the 102 x 51
island there is a measurement of 48”, at the 96 x 42 island it reads 39”. Even DH spent some time studying it and
neither of us can figure it out… inquiring minds need to know : - ) See image
below

Okay, Fridge 'side view' is next...

(buelh and cpartist, there are new posts w/questions above if you get to this one first) Fridge Side View: Critique please: Below is the only side view I’ve
gotten done (work is getting in the way, ha).
No changes, but wanted to be sure this was correct, and also need opinion on stacked upper cabs. I went for function: topmost cabs used for
storage mostly, they are 18” H, and below them 30” H – I can’t reach taller
than the upper shelves of a 30” high cabinet without using a ladder, something
I wish to avoid for items I use daily.

Drawers are
the same, later I’ll work on heights and numbers of – need to finish side views
so I can make my Organization Map to know about drawer heights.

Will work
on side views of the rest of the kitchen day after tomorrow (work) and I know
we’ll have questions. DH now refers to
you both by your screen names (he’s rather manly and gruff and this tickles
me!).

And
finally, thank you buehl for thoughtfully marking the various zones w/o
measurements in the way, for marking the DW and drawer pullout at the clean-up
zone (which has now decreased by 1”), and thank you buehl and cpartist
for answering our questions in such a way we understand them. I thank you both for being patient with me as I rebelled against wider aisle space; changing my original design. You both were right.

PS: Board
etiquette question: This thread is long, do I need to start another or do I continue
on this one?

thank you for commenting on not going with built-in MW and wine fridge – wasn’t positive if that was the direction to go… now I am.

My MW is a built in drawer MW and I love it. I said not to go with a built in wine fridge because they tend to need to be replaced every 6 years or so.

You told me about the corner drawers (vs. lazy susan) but said you didn’t care for them. I love them!

No I said I love them. I'm putting in the corner drawers in my new build.

Question: He says he won’t mind walking to get water from sink at pass-through – is this functionally correct for him? (please say yes!)

Yes. I think it will be fine. It's about 10-12 steps. Try it.

Question: To make tv low enough for comfy viewing with head back on recliner (spent some time mimicking this, ha ha!), needed to lower the bar to 30”H. DH says that’s fine, but what do you think? He’s 6’ tall. I don’t see a way around this.

Make the coffee bar narrower in depth. The get a mantlemount for the tv for when you're watching. I'm getting one for my tv over my fireplace. :)

I won't comment on all the numbers as I haven't had dinner and my head is spinning right now, but will comment on your upper cabinets. Doing a 30" upper with 18" above that is going to make the upper look top heavy and push down on the 30" cabinets.

I would do a 36" high upper, a 12" high above that and then have your 6" crown.

At the 102 x 51 island there is a measurement of 48”, at the 96 x 42 island it reads 39”. Even DH spent some time studying it and neither of us can figure it out… inquiring minds need to know : - ) See image below

48" is the width of two cabinets together underneath. The 51" is what it would measure on top with the countertop because you need 1 1/2 inch overhang on both sides. So 48" cabinets plus 3" of overhang = 51".

The 39" is a 24" cabinet and a 15" cabinet underneath. The 42" is what it would measure on top with the countertop because you need 1 1/2 inch overhang on both sides. So 39" cabinets plus 3" of overhang = 42".

I think the arrow is what is confusing. It should be facing sideways.

cpartist: I misunderstood about the MW and the corner
cabinets. I do wish to go with an upper
garage door enclosed microwave so I can swap it out – and realize I completely left it out of the Side
View above. I'm not a fan of corner cabinets. I would rather have the
storage in drawers on either side and have a blind corner if it meant that
other cabinets on my run would be small like the 12" wide cabinet next to
the pantry. To me a 12" cabinet is useless except to collect junk. I misunderstood this statement and
understood it to mean lower:

Whereas perhaps you were referring to upper:

Not that it matters. I just misunderstood.

Make the coffee bar
narrower in depth…. mantlemount… Coffee maker can’t sit directly underneath
TV no matter how high TV sits above, even if fully enclosed in a garage as
steam escaping from blooming the grinds during brewing would eventually damage the
TV. Also, if we make it narrow no room
for mini fridge. The mini fridge needs space
so as not to overheat.

That Mantlemount is awesome, but w/o going into elaborate
details, we are incorporating the TV into the cabinet in such a way it won’t
work. DH will look at this and may
change his mind tho’! As we go through
this, we learn so many new ideas and it’s such a fantastic process!

Doing a 30"
upper with 18" above that is going to make the upper look top heavy and
push down on the 30" cabinets.

I would do a 36"
high upper, a 12" high above that and then have your 6" crown.

This was why I wanted to post the Side Views and I so appreciate your input. I wasn’t sure about heights of stacked upper cabs. Since your comment, in looking at various
photos, seems the taller cabs below, with shorter above, as you just said,
makes for cleaner lines, less heavy:

Therefore, I’ll change the stacked cab’s to the 36” and 12”
as you suggested to see what it looks like.
I feel we’ll both prefer it.

I was allowing 5” for crown molding (included in that is a 1”
filler to sit underneath to even out non-plumb ceiling heights). I am thinking
the crown molding shouldn’t be over 4” in our kitchen as it might look
overwhelming in respect to the rest of the house… I do want 18”, not 15” clearance between countertop and upper
cabinets.

48" is the width
of two cabinets together underneath. Yes, it was the arrow. Thanks for clearing this up, I was concerned
we were missing some pertinent measurements a cabinet maker would need to know.

I’ve made some mistakes I think in the Side View…

#1: the 2” piece of stock (for side of fridge facing the
Great Room) is fine, just showing it here.

#2: the 2” piece of stock on the other side of the fridge
shows it stopping at 2nd stack of upper cabs, which wasn’t intended
and the measurements include it going all the way to the crown moulding. However…

#3: needs to be the microwave garage, in which case, it needs
to be wider.

Question: So, and
I don’t wish to appear stupid, but there may be rules I’m unaware of: if the
stock on the oven side of the fridge (#2) only went on the side of the fridge
that is exposed, I could add another 2” to the 24” wide upper cabs, 2” to the
lower drawer bases, giving more room for the MW garage (and by garage, I mean
garage door). See image below. Are there any rules/reasons Re: stock pieces
on this side of fridge that would make this impossible to do?

Question: Also, when
I did the side view yesterday I didn’t add it all up… I’m coming in at
(including leaving 2” stocks as original) 172” across for uppers, 171” across
for lowers. Have I missed something from
buehl’s layout?

Lastly, I understand we are asking a zillion questions and
very heavily relying on the 2 of you right now.
If at any time this becomes too laborious, time-consuming, or tedious,
please let me know.

"48" is the width of two cabinets together underneath."

and

"I think the arrow is what is confusing. It should be facing sideways."

No, the arrow is pointing correctly -- pointing toward the DW. That's 48" of dish storage in drawers facing the DW. It could be two 24"W drawer bases or any combination equaling 48".

.

"Also, to keep it at 92 (wanted every inch I could get) I bumped the whole island up 1” toward the DW and sink."

Unfortunately, if you move the island "up", you may not be able to have the drawers and DW open at the same time when unloading the dishes. I would just reduce the island to another inch or whatever it takes to accommodate your furniture without reducing any aisle widths.

You could consider reducing the sink base to 21".

.

Regarding cutting board storage -- I bought tray dividers and put them under my prep sink and store my cutting boards there.

Ok so the island is 48" deep and the drawers facing the perimeter are 24" deep and 48" wide or two 24" x 24" drawers or one 24" x 39" drawer.

I believe the OP's confusion was what the number stood for in total.

Thank you buehl and cpartist for getting back to me. Yes, I understand the 48” now; I was thinking the arrow meant 48”D, not wide.

Regarding cutting board storage -- I bought tray dividers and put them under my prep sink and store my cutting boards there. Thank you, that’s incredibly helpful to me.

Also, I understood the ‘dotted black lines’ were to show the drawers and DW open, the space it allowed – I was grateful you put that in as a visual for me. Never having owned
drawers across from the DW, I wasn’t sure how much of an issue moving the island up might be (not being able to open the drawers an inch might not be an issue for me, but it’s yet another item I need to ‘chew on’). I’ll look at it all, including reducing the sink to 21”. There’s so much I don’t think of.

I also see I’ve made mistakes on my first the side view. No MW. Forgot that! Also, I now understand the various stock pieces buehl added (which I also didn’t include).

I’m not sure there is enough overhead storage… I think I’m seeing (I’ll get it figured out!) in the 12”H topmost upper cabinet storage for candlewick/capodimonte/silver display: 24”W over MW; 60” W; 42”W; and 24”W over pantry = 150” (over 12 feet). Plus I’d have approx. 126” (minus over pantry) for utility storage on all 36”H topmost shelves. I had quite a bit more than this in the dining room, but the only other alternative is to add very high overheads above the passthrough and I need to do side views to see if that will look overcrowded. The other possible alternative is this photo cpartist posted:

Again, something to look at. EDIT: We really don't want to change the current clean lines, openness. May have to be clever with display/storage.

I’m going to work on the side views, various options mentioned with the island and options for more display cab’s, and after that I want to work on the Organization Map, as this is such an important aspect of the layout. I’ll take my time, and most likely post in a new thread.