Wow. I'm so happy you're finalizing. It looks wonderful. I love that you have decided on a peninsula and have otherwise simplified the lines for a serenely clean (in both respects) and cohesive view that way. IMO, this will work best for you regardless of style.

There might be a couple things I would do different, but not because they're better, because I'm me. For instance, because we have one main cook and one occasional assistant, I'd shift the sink to maximize my primary work space. Probably. Even for me, it's not that major an issue, like most of the rest.

Regarding the dining room wall, it's a great idea. I'd prefer to avoid a too-utilitarian kitcheny aspect by using the storage to frame a large recess in the middle of the wall for art display. To reward the eye for going that way. Unless you set a loveseat in the bottom, or some such thing, the cabinets below the niche would create a shelf, but IMO that would be a very good thing, both for display and for serving duty at dinners. I'd do the shelf in a different material from the kitchen counters.

As for fussing the details, everything has a tradeoff. People who think they've achieved perfection do because they are happy with what they chose and blew off the alternatives they let go. Some only liked one style to begin with, making it easier, but it's really mostly a matter of attitude.

You're fortunate in liking a broad range of style (so many possibilities to play with). But, both your tastes and what is possible to achieve in a kitchen will continue to evolve, making design flexibility a far more desirable feature than momentarily having it all in one, even if that were possible.

So maybe get ready to start choosing so you can throw the brochures and printouts for the discards in the trash and forget about them? Don't let yourself be one of those people whose real final kitchen just can't measure up to the impossible, imaginary perfection that wasn't achieved because it could never be. (There's a pretty common if-only syndrome where discarded choices start looking better in memory than they ever did for real.)

It's pretty unlikely this'll be your last kitchen, anyway, right?

1- I like the 12" deep full height pantry idea.

3- I think 4 drawers for the 12" cab would be better. What will you have under the sink? You can have 2 drawers there as well. Did you consider toe kick drawers?

4,5- That sink looks great, and if you get it you don't need to center the sink, Just move the cutting board to the left, and you have the sink in the center!
Even if you get a 30" one I don't think you should center the sink. I wouldn't want to be too close to the range and believe most prep is done b/w the sink and the range.

6 7- Except for 1 kitchen I always had uppers at the sink and never felt any discomfort. I liked the way uppers look, and yes to no uppers on the range wall.

Thanks, Rosie. Your words are wise. After this, I do need to finalize finishes and COMMIT to material choices. I should tape your words about that on my forehead.

In a house this small, I guess the good and the bad part is we are really only talking a matter of inches. I'm not sure when those inches make a difference and when they don't - I do know that when it matters, it can matter a great deal. lol Are you saying you'd bump the sink further towards the fridge?

I know you are in favor of doing the hutch/counter area in the DR. I don't know if I am getting design fatigue or am just landing on the side of "I like the look and I need the storage". I'll keep mulling that, though. I just don't see a counter there being very functional for dinners - and we'll have our entire peninsula to pay spreads out. I'm MORE concerned about whether I can spare the foot of depth in that room! The glass cabinets above at least help lighten it up, yes?

It's likely my last kitchen - and first. You never know, though!

Thanks, Sena! I'm thinking the sink is probably going to have to store the cleaning supplies and bucket, as it does now. I have considered toe kick drawers and drawers there, but we are really trying to be low-budget on the cabinets and I'm pretty sure that is not an option with the 3 frameless cabinet companies we are considering at this point (Barkers, Bellmont or IKEA).

Love your rationale about the sink. It does seem like it would allow the work versus clean-up zone to switch around a bit. I like the idea of flexibility and making the sink do double-duty for us. I've been nervous about a single basin sink given this is a 1 sink house and we have to rinse recycles, stack dishes, clean dishes and prep at the same sink. I thought this might make a single sink work better. I've heard the same things about the primary prep area being between the sink and range.

I'm so relieved to hear another person testify that uppers at the sink have not been a trip to hell for them. I'm not sure I would do a BS window if I had it to do over again but we have it and it definitely has appealing features and we need to work with it, not against it.

The specific feedback to these question areas is VERY helpful, along with anything else that jumps out at people.

I just got back from the lighting galleries. Figuring out that recessed lighting AND they had the light I've been ogling for 2 years in stock - cheaper than on-line!! So, I bought it! I am now the proud owner of a range and a DR light. Go, me! lol

Wow.. this is a lot .. you did a great job laying out the issues and providing visuals.

1. I do like the tall 12" deep pantry idea - as long as you are comfortable with a pretty narrow space for dining - it looks that the usable width would be about 8'.

2. Fridge size - I would recommend staying with the 30" vs a 36" given the dimensions of the space.

3. Drawers - I may have missed where the garbage pull out is - but given the size of the kitchen I would think of having garbage under the sink and putting doing drawers where ever you can.

For the smaller sink side I would do four vs three drawers as they are not very wide - and four drawers gives space for differentiating things - ie silverware drawer, plastic wrap drawer, baking utensils or tea drawer, dishtowel drawer.

4. Sink Base - I think sink bases are mostly a waste of space ...and in a small space would stay with a 30". However... you need to have what you really like!

5. Sink Location - For the corner cabinet - have you considered doing a 33" versus a 36"? This would allow for larger cabinets on each run - for example 21" drawers on the sink wall, OR moving the sink down 3" and allowing a 15" set of drawers near the refrigerator; and a 15" next to the range.

6 & 7 - I would revisit the uppers. The space around the range looks tailor made for uppers. I have a friend that has a similar kitchen and the uppers surrounding the range are gorgeous ... she only wishes she took them to the ceiling. She also put in a larger window over the sink and we can't believe the difference this made in the whole feel of her kitchen. I'll see if I can get pictures for you.

8. I recommend your cabinet plan be final before planning recessed lighting. Will also take picutres of the recessed lighting in my friends kitchen. Her kitchen is different in the placement of the refrigerator ... and she does not have counter seating ... although she has an opening to the other room. Nontheless, I think it is substantially simialr in size and placement of range, sink.

Whoo Hoo, Steph! I know how it feels to get close to nailing down a plan, and second-guessing every decision.

I just completed a small kitchen remodel, and I firmly believe that inches DO matter. Here are some of my thoughts, based on what I did (so of course it's the right way):

In general: the best way to maximize use of space in a small kitchen is to figure out what will go where, and make sure you have room. You'd hate to plan for your stock pot or roaster to go a certain place, and discover too late that it doesn't quite fit.

Definitely 4 drawers instead of 3. My 4-drawer stack has increasing depths top to bottom. 3 drawers give you greater measured height, but you have to stack things, making that extra height less efficient.

I have a drawer over the trash in my new kitchen - it's the silverware drawer. There is still plenty of room for both trash and recycle bins. I think that extra height would be wasted space - you'll probably empty the trash before it ever gets close to the top of an extra-tall bin.

In my kitchen, I put in a 30" sink base to maximize the space on each side. I just have cleaning supplies underneath. If you could squeeze down your sink a little, you'd gain 3 valuable inches in the drawers by the fridge.

I have a 9"-wide cab for cookie sheets, with a little drawer above - cookie sheets aren't that tall. If you put that next to the stove, you can put utensils in the drawer.

I put a diagonal super susan in my corner, with a drawer above (I put a knife insert there). Some people don't like diagonal corners, but I can put my MW on the counter in that corner without losing counter space (and I gained a drawer!). I had custom cabinets built, though - I'm not sure you could get such a thing in your line (even if you wanted it). Does your corner have a lazy susan, or just shelves? There are tons of clever corner space solutions, but they are usually pretty expensive.

Good luck with your final decisions!

Just to clarify, Steph, regarding "hutch" in DRM, no. I was really suggesting using the storage to create art display to make that wall beautiful to look at. If the storage wrapped all around the display area, that would create a 12" deep shelf. Couldn't get away from that, but it wouldn't ever have to be used for anything, just look very good.

Say, if you want more inches in the dining room can't the 'wall of tall' be built back between the studs? Then you can have 4" less of that wall of tall sticking into the room. Like this one in cindyandmocha's kitchen reveal. Link to thread below where she explains it.

Here is a link that might be useful: between the studs pantry

miruca - Thanks for weighing in! I agree, a smaller fridge would look better. We just have to figure out how it will function. I'm amazed at how much crap we have in our fridge and freezer even during reno, where we are really not cooking! I also wish the small fridges with bottom drawer had the bells/whistles of the bigger fridges, but it doesn't seem they do.

The garbage pullout is to the left of the sink. It's one of the things I have really wanted all along. I hear you on the generally wasted space under a sink and the benefit of putting the garbage there. I have to say, though, I really use my sink cab for those cleaning supplies and bucket - and I am really liking that sink I posted. We had a 36" sink base in the old kitchen, but maybe it is too big. I'm still weighing that. Maybe I need to shop for yet more sinks! (ugh!)

We did look at a 33" corner cabinet, but what I understand is that it gets difficult to put in good super susans without 36"?

I'll draft up another layout with uppers around the range, just to visualize it again. I hope you can take pics of your friend's kitchen!

If I do go with uppers at the range, I worry about BS given my glass on the other wall. I also wouldn't be able to have my floating shelves on the side of the range/bump out, which seemed like it would be handy.

annkh - Thanks for the whoo hoo! I could use one about now!

That's 2 votes in favor of 4 drawers instead of 3. Interesting. The one in the display room seemed so small it was hard to imagine things fitting in it. I'll have to go down there again.

And...another vote for a smaller sink. I hear what you are saying about the inches being valuable somewhere else. I just really loved the functionality of this sink! Lowe's carries one with these kinds of features for a 1/3 of the price and 3 less inches, but it just looks cheap compared to this sink. Hm...

I like the idea of cookie sheets at the range, but I really need a spot for spices and oils. I know the range isn't considered the best place for it, but we'll have induction/electric so I don't think it will be that bad.

The corner cabinet as designed would have a susan of some type - and I opted away from the top drawer because I wanted to be able to put tall items in there, like my blender or stock pot.

And, most importantly, I need to find your reveal! I've been avoiding reveal threads lately, to be honest, as I wallow in details! Congratulations on your new kitchen!!

Rosie - I know you didn't mean hutch-hutch, though it creates kind of a hutch effect at least when there are uppers and lowers used. I could skip the uppers and just go with lower cabinets. But, once again, I worry about losing that much storage...

Deedles - I know! I love that built-in pantry! How clever is that? Alas, this is an exterior wall so I can't do it here. A while back when that surfaced, I showed it to my partner and we contemplated doing it in the LR area. We even considered doing it down the whole wall, encasing the french doors. We nixed it, though, because of my concerns about our ability to pull it off in a way that didn't look amatuerish and imbalanced. The space needs in this house are that great, though... We could fill it all up in no time...

I took a little bit of time this morning before getting ready for work to lay out a kitchen with uppers on the range wall and to play with the lowers, too.

The first 2 shots are the uppers on the range:

It's more a visual thing at this point, really, I think. I'm not going to gain that much in terms of uppers and I lose the floating shelves. The corner cabinet will function better than the other option, but I'm not sure that is a big deal to me and I think those upper corners are rather narrow?

It's not a bad look. I kinda like it, in fact. However, it does create some dilemmas with the BS window wall in terms of what in the world to use there for tile. And, obviously, bye-bye to the tile to the ceiling nook.

I also despised my narrow uppers on each side of the range in my last kitchen. They got terribly messy and things got lost and jumbled and stuck in the back and ugh! I guess I could look for 12" pull outs for each side of the range on the top and go with a 36" range hood even though we don't need it with our induction range. Then it becomes a height issue for me again, but nothing new there. I had just hoped to minimize that in the new kitchen.
For cost, it will cost more in cabs but less in tile and kind of break even, I suppose?

This all assumes the company we end up going with offers a corner cabinet like this. I'm not a fan of diagnonal corner cabs and really don't want an upper blind corner...

Votes?

2 - The drawers/sink -
Then I played around again with a 30" sink base and eliminating the garbage pullout (ouch). I was able to replace them with 2 18" drawer stacks is all. I'm not completely sure that the trade-offs are really worth it here? I'm also not sure that I like it better visually...

I was really pretty psyched about a garbage pullout, so that's pretty hard to look at giving up. I had garbage at the sink in this kitchen and I didn't like it a bit. We also really use our sink cabinet for those cleaning supplies etc and I don't have a broom closet, so that's tricky.

And, finally, as much as I love drawers, I like continuity a lot. The thing that appealed to me about the exterior lowers all being tall doors was that it seemed so streamlined and consistent. Especially with long horizontal pulls all the way across.

Oops - forgot to add the picture of the drawers/no pull out/smaller sink -

Thoughts?

This post was edited by Steph2000 on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 14:00

Maybe you've already addressed this, but the uppers on the window wall...I would switch the hardware on the left one to balance with the far right. The cabinet should be easy to reach from the countertop, not the fridge, right?

Have you thought about a plate rack or glass (even frosted) over the sink? It might break up the long run of solid uppers...unless you like that, with the window/backsplash. At work and didn't have time to read the entire post. Just a quick comment :)

Love this layout!
I had a 12" floor to 8' ceiling pantry in my small kitchen and I loved it! No more cans of corn getting buried and having to be thrown out, plenty of space for cereal, flour, and crackers. It took up the linear space between the refigerator and the hall wall. One side was tall to accomodate a broom and mop and cleaners.
I do like the "between the studs pantry" idea too, especially for small spaces. Inches can make a difference! You could have a 15" cabinet that appears to be a 12" and as we said, inches can make a huge difference.
Personally, I don't like the cabinets over the sink coming down that low-great look, not so functional. Not only will it affect how you and when you will hit your hands, but washing larger items, such as soup pots, cookie sheets, and platters will be difficult. That gorgeous window backsplash will be covered with spots each and every time you have to wash big items. You could still get the same look, but not have the cabinets come all the way down above the sink. And I do love that sink. Check with them about drainage. When they first came out with zero radius sinks, the drains weren't enough to handle and pooling/puddling happened. Stains were next to set in.
The peninsula is a great addition to a wonderful small kitchen, perfect for entertainment and homework. Yes, even we adults have homework sometimes. :) Toekick drawers are a nice addition, but I expect they will be rather expensive to have them custom built. Most RTA companies do not offer this option and many of them do not offer just doors/drawers, except dummy doors which is my next item to discuss.
Dummy doors (decorative end panels) are necessary at the end by the W/D, but you could put just a plywood panel or even a beadboard panel under the overhang a the bar area. The dummy doors would not really be visible with the stools/chairs coverning the up. Using a 4896" paneling is a bit less expensive and there should be enough left over for some shelves should you have room for some in the living room.
I like the pendant lights over the peninsula. Depending on what output your recessed lights put out will determine if you have enough or too many. Check with your lighting person.
I am afraid that a refrigerator withFrench Doors will only come in 36" I believe. If you have to special order the 30 or 33" one, you will pay a hefty chunk and lose the effect of the French Doors. The interior will be just like a regular door refrigerator-sizewise.
I think you have made a great design, functional, open and airy, and I hope to see it come to fruition. Photos please before, during, and after.

Lavender Lass - Thanks for chiming in, at work no less. This cheap-o free and easy design software doesn't allow me to play with the hardware placement. The PLAN is to have long horizontal pulls across the uppers and lowers both. With small ones where they make sense. In fact, my top contender is the one shown with the green cabinets in the OP. And, yes, the doors will open the opposite directions at several key points than is shown in my renderings...

To both LL and RoRO, and anyone else chiming in for that matter!, I had a big long post a while back about what to do with uppers with the backsplash window. That conversation convinced me to rethink the plan to bump up the cabinets or have glass cabinets on that wall to embrace the illusion of the backsplash window. I'm trying to make myself to not go backwards and do another circle on the issue. We'll see how that goes! We'll have somewhere between 17-20" between counter and upper cabinets and I'll go with a lower profile sink of some kind. I'm short so I don't want the uppers too high (plus we have short ceilings), but I totally get the point you are making. It's tricky to find the right answers for this BS window. For sure, whatever I do will have drawbacks and not please everyone... We put the BS window in when we were doing the outside for an energy audit program 2 years ago and had to guess at everything as we had no kitchen plans. Now I just have to make it work...

Roho, thanks for the enthusiasm! I'm needing a little love right now! LOL Just to be clear, do you like the original layout or the revised options to include uppers on the range wall, minimize sink size, add more drawers, etc?

Are you saying the counters stained or the sinks with the zero radius? I'm not sure I am understanding...

For the fridge, I"m not sold on french doors- just the bottom freezer drawer. If I could find a 30-33" option that had the interior options we wanted in a CD, I'd go for it. Just haven't found it yet...

We'll do some kind of paneling around the peninsula seating. Undecided about how that is going to end up looking, but it will look finished. We'll probably leave the wall part (bump out) drywall for now and consider various options down the road, including paneling or wallpaper or tile. We might look at something we can include into the hallway there. But, that's getting ahead of myself with finishes and materials and I have got to make myself stay on layout! LOL

I'm glad to hear you liked your 12" pantries. Mine won't be in such a convenient place, but it's something! If we end up finding a place to put one of those neat ones tucked into drywall, it will probably end up much more narrow as the only place for it would be on the LR wall next to the peninsula and I don't want it interfering with the walkway/sense of feeling open.

I should post some of my "during" pictures someday. It's been quite a journey so far!

For pendants at the peninsula counter, all I want is something shiny to cast sparkley light. It won't work well for task lighting, so we'll have another row of can lights down the peninsula on the working side of the kitchen, I think. I just want 2-3 little mini-pendants in clear glass or crystal that won't really catch the eye much until they are on at night, acting more as accent lighting.

The light I showed a pic of will be the drum pendant over the DR table area.

I met with some lighting consultants this weekend, and also posted on GW's lighting forum. So, hopefully that is getting close to nailed down...

Steph, I'd love for you to see my new kitchen!

Here is a link that might be useful: Ann's reveal

Annkh!! What a great redo. Thanks so much for giving me a link. I need to find your GW reveal and comment there, also.

My favorite part, for which I am filled with envy, may seem silly but it is your file cabinets. I so wanted to find space for a mail/filing station in the new kitchen. I think I'm going to lose on that, given my space limitations, but what a great (and needed) thing for many of us. I could soooo use that.

Your cabinet folks did a great job with integrating everything so seamlessly. You must be really pleased, yes?

I've spent the last 24 hours staring at uppers on the range wall versus no uppers on the range wall and my partner REALLY needs me to commit to a range hood so he can get it installed before the snow flies... I might put a vote up on the group just for that issue... Ugh, I go in circles too much!