I would be happy if I could push the kitchen out to this:

I might be able to get the garage door in but I am not sure if I would still have space for an eating area.

What about this? I removed the wall between your kitchen and great room.

You get easy access to the slider, a door to the garage, a 14' long stretch for you and your kids to stand at, no lost or hard-to-reach corners, you can put seats on either end of the table when you want to seat six, and now you have a pantry.

I can also see an argument to have the counter spans to the left of the sink and the right of the stove be 2.5' wide and the center counter span 4'. It would just be personal preference if you want a larger span in the middle or on the sides.

This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 22:01

Can you remove the wall between family room and kitchen area? That's not clear from your post. Also, do you have a fireplace in your family room or does it only have a large window?

Is the breakfast/dining area the only dining space in your home?

I have an idea but I need to know more about your space to know if my idea would work.

I had some time to kill so I drew up my idea anyway. This *does* require removing the wall between kitchen and great room. It also turns the great room into more of a keeping room or a great-lette room, if you will. ;-) Not sure if this is within your budget or desirable. I saw that you have a "formal" room so that could become your larger sitting area.

I used the small wall jog for a walk-in pantry. That will provide loads of storage, plus it means no corner cabinets. It will be somewhat like this but with the fridge at right angles to it, not next to it,

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Portland Architects & Building Designers Whitten Architects

You have generous counters on each side of the range. I'm assuming, given your small space, that you'll have an over-the-range MW.

No need to change out the sliding door with this plan. I'm hoping that the slider is a left opening, not a right-opening one so that you have a larger buffer area around the range.

The island is long enough for a 30" single bowl sink, a 24" DW and a 24"-25" cab on the other end of the island (depends on how wide the DW support end piece is).

The banquette backs up to the island like this:

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[Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Morristown Interior Designers & Decorators Marlene Wangenheim AKBD, CAPS, Allied Member ASID

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Morristown Interior Designers & Decorators Marlene Wangenheim AKBD, CAPS, Allied Member ASID

I drew in a couch, chair and coffee table but you could also do a smallish sectional like this one:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Mill Valley Interior Designers & Decorators EJ Interior Design, Eugenia Jesberg

Is this your TV viewing room, too? I didn't take that into account but perhaps you can set a low entertainment table and TV in front of the window. Not ideal but the space has limits. If that's a fireplace, not a window, then the only option I can see is to mount the TV above the fireplace. This is my least favorite option. It puts the TV too high for comfortable viewing, IMO. But as I wrote, your space has limits.

Can you convert the patio door in the Kitchen to a window and then put a door in the Great Room (assuming you have the window, not the FP)?

[Edited for typo]

This post was edited by buehl on Wed, Sep 10, 14 at 0:38

About that optional Kitchen design - note the placement of the patio door - it's shifted down (toward the Great Room) to make room for a counter on the "top" wall. It looks like there's barely 2' b/w the top wall and the door - not counting door trim (from what I can tell). Even if door trim is included, you really need at least 26" (preferably 27") b/w the top wall and the door trim. If there isn't enough space, then a standard counter (25.5"D) will not fit there - you'll need a shallower counter and, most likely, shallower base cabinets.

There may be enough space, but since there are no measurements on the layout, it's difficult to tell.

Can you post the layout with all measurements labeled? We need the width of all walls/windows/doors/doorways and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway.

Oh, and I recommend reading the Layout Help FAQ if you haven't already (see below for a link to it).

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Wow. Thank you everyone for your time and helpful replies. The wall can come down, but it has a lot of services (mostly plumbing and heating) running through it. We can pare it back to about 6" on one side (near the garage door) and about 12" on the other (near the door). There will be a lower hanging beam (12" or so) as the services run through the joist cavity in the ceiling. The stubs of the original wall will also need to increase in width for the plumbing and heating runs that need to make it upstairs ;)

I really like the island and pantry Lisa! I would never have thought of a pocket door pantry. We are big home cooks/bakers and really need somewhere for supplies at the moment. As for the budget, it is flexible. I want something that works and would prefer not to spend a mint but I really would like to fix this...

We do have the fireplace option so moving the door to the family room would likely mean putting it on the wall without windows (near the staircase).

Measurements on either side of the sliding door are 25" on either side (to the rough opening) or 22 1/2" to the existing door trim. The original drawings are the framing plans from the builder. They are accurate and I thought that they showed everything but I will draw it out and post a simplified sketch this afternoon.

Having narrow walls on each side of the space will decrease the island and table area quite a bit in order to keep decent aisles through the area. Would it be possible to run the plumbing and heating runs through columns between the back of the island and the banquette like this?

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[Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Seattle Architects & Building Designers Dan Nelson, Designs Northwest Architects

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Toronto General Contractors Dagmara Lulek Royal LePage

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Chatham Architects & Building Designers Polhemus Savery DaSilva

You'd have to increase the depth of the island a bit to accommodate the posts, which means taking a few more inches from the great room area, but I think it would be worth it.

Okay, here are some measurements. In red, I have drawn the best case of removing the wall. Structurally, I need 3 2x6's to hold the beam, so I can get each side to 5" (at a minimum). I brought the one side out to 12" (and widened it) because I need somewhere for the plumbing and heating ducts. If I put the services into a column, I could get this back down in size.

Lisa, I am really open to anything! The less I need to move the plumbing stack, the better as that will be a major hassle. I just counted and confirmed: There is 1 plumbing stack (4" diameter), 2 forced air heating runs (a round 5" and 6") and 2 1/2" copper water pipes in that wall. It might be possible to combine the heating ducts into a single 7" square duct and split it in the joists above, but I am not positive. One way or another, all this needs to make its way to the upper floor. Unfortunately, in my climate, none of this can be moved into an exterior wall.

Just so I'm clear here, this new floor plan is oriented totally differently from the original ones you posted, right? And if if it were in the same orientation as the original plan, it'd look like this?

Also, what are the dimensions of the red lines you drew in for the best case scenario wall stubs?

Yes. I am sorry, I sketched it on my laptop while sitting in the kitchen and didn't even think of what orientation the builder's plans are in. My house is a mirror opposite of the plans which makes things complicated. I will redraw it to match and post it tomorrow with those measurements.

Best case, if I have to hide the plumbing/heating in a stub wall is 5" and 10-12". If I have a pilar in the island area for these, then I can probably do 5" on each side (I need 3 2x6s which is 4.5" + the .5" drywall on each end).

Here are the revised drawings to match the originals.

I have also put a much higher resolution version of the original floor plan in the link below as it has various other dimensions.

Please do not hesitate to ask for anything you need!

Here is a link that might be useful:

Thank you, that is MUCH easier to work with.

1) What are the needs of your great room? Do you watch TV in there, or is the fireplace the only focal point? If you watch TV in there, what are you feelings on placing the TV above the fireplace? Do the windows flanking the fireplace go all the way to the floor, or where do they stop?

2) Do you need all the space currently allotted for the garage, or could some of that be annexed by the kitchen?

The great room is our family room. Having young kids, it is also a toy room. The fireplace is the focal point as our tv is in the basement. We have discussed putting one above the fireplace as it would be easier to watch the kids during their tv time while cooking dinner but it hasn't happened yet. Likewise, we have discussed adding windows (or moving the door) into the wall of the great room that has no windows. The house was designed for a narrow lot but we have a wide, pie shaped lot. We can't add windows or a door to the wall in the kitchen/eating area as we are very close to our neighbours on that side.

We really cannot annex space from the garage as it is already very narrow. Other issues are that there is a good 12" grade difference and the wall is load bearing with heating, wiring and plumbing (except where the optional door is shown). That is really the only place a door to the garage can be put without major hassles.

The windows are large, but do not extend all the way to the floor. They are 14" off the floor (too close to make a comfortable bench, unfortunately) and 12" off the ceiling. Ceilings are 8' throughout the house.

This post was edited by grahamw on Fri, Sep 12, 14 at 19:19

What would you think about turning the two windows in the great room into french doors to the backyard? Are the windows wide enough to be doors? (Framing for windows and doors is identical except for the few pieces underneath a window, so it would be an easy (inexpensive) swap if the windows are already as wide as a door.)

Then the sliding door in the kitchen could become a window and either the kitchen sink or the kitchen seating could go under it.

Thanks for replying Julius. The widths on the windows are 36" and would therefore seem perfect to swap. However, my only two basement windows that are directly under these so converting either or both to doors is problematic.

I have thought about putting a single french door in the corner of the great room (near the staircase). A door there would lead directly out to our shed and garbage storage in the side yard and would be convenient. However, this leaves us with few walls for seating/couches in the 'great room'. It could work, but we go back and forth on the idea. One of our biggest issues with the current kitchen/eating area layout is the access to the backyard. It seems there is always something in the way of the door and there is no place for the kid's shoes, boots, coats, hats, etc.

If we were to convert the existing 72" wide opening to a window with seating, then I think we might be able to leave the wall between the eating area and great room in place and convert our u-shaped kitchen into an L (perhaps with a small roll-away island or something for additional workspace).

Okay, here is my idea, assuming the french door idea works (I kept the pantry idea you'd liked from before -- I also thought that was clever). One square on the graph paper is 1 sq. foot.

Since you have to keep the wall stubs and there is going to be a beam above them, that'll very clearly divide the kitchen from the living room. I originally had a lot of ideas about a table straddling the kitchen and great room, but I really think that would look odd with what is essentially a big doorway in the middle. Also, your great room has a very symmetrical focal wall -- the fireplace flanked by the windows -- and that also would make it odd for something to protrude into that space and block part of it.

So I focused on containing the seating within the kitchen space, giving you the garage door you wanted in the only place it can go, and making everything else as functional and spacious as possible.

I just saw your message about the basement windows. Two thoughts:

1) You could put a landing outside that where the great room windows are that spans between both windows and has stairs in the middle of that wall -- on the other side of the fireplace. That way the stairs are not in front of the basement windows.

2) I actually see no issue at all with putting a french door where you said on the other side of the great room. If you intend to move the TV up there, you'd need to float the couch forward anyway so it's not too far away for comfortable viewing. And from what I can see, you can fit a very large sectional an the door in there easy-peasy.

Will the kitchen seating be your only dining area?

I'm sorry if you already answered this.

I have a small kitchen too. It can work. We just need to figure out the priority list so we can offer ideas.

We do have another 'Formal Room' at the front of the house that could be used as a dining area. However, it is far from the kitchen and not used for that purpose currently. I would really like to get a proper table in the kitchen area and avoid the bar seating that is all the rage at the moment. It just doesn't seem practical with kids to me. I like nook and built-in seating and this seems the most practical given the space constraints.

I haven't taken the time to redraw Plan A based on your more recent measurements and drawing but I will.

In the meantime, here's another idea for you:

The kitchen lay-out stays roughly the same as you currently have, but it's a foot wider, which helps make it more functional. I was able to do this because I added a box bay window seat. Your contractor will need to construct the box bay OR you can buy a pre-fab bay window (get as wide a center window as possible). I prefer the former because then you can have the window set higher in the opening so diners lean back against wall, not window. If you buy a pre-fab bay window, make sure they know that you intend this to go in a dining area; you may need to make the lower window safety glass.

Here are a few images to help you visualize this:

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[Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Stowe Architects & Building Designers Cushman Design Group
The above is built on site with the windows above the seat back.

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Greenwich Architects & Building Designers Orrick & Company
Also built-on site.

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[Traditional Dining Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2107) by Grand Rapids Home Builders Insignia Homes

I moved the door to the backyard to the window in the great room. I realize that this affects the basement window. That's one of the trade-offs with this plan.

I added a spacer between fridge and wall to give the fridge door enough room to open wide to access fridge doors. That's not an issue now but it will be once you add the walls to house the plumbing and heating runs.

42" between table and peninsula counter is 2" less than the NKBA recommended minimum for an aisle wide enough to walk behind seated diners but I figure it's more room than you currently have and thus will seem palatial. ;-) The numbers in () between table and top wall are the aisle with a 42" table and the aisle with the table extended to 60". When extended, it's a snug fit but since you wrote that this is occasional use only so I thought it would likely be okay.

The other trade-off with this plan is that the garage entry into the house is not through the kitchen but through the front hall. I flipped the closet on its side and reduced its width to make room for the new door. It's not nearly as convenient when carrying in groceries but it's better than having to walk outside of the garage and in through the front door. It also doesn't eat up precious space from your small kitchen.

You have a lot of wants and needs, and limited space to fit them all in. You'll have to decide which trade-offs you can live with.

I didn't realize the formal room was actually an unused dining room. Given that, I don't think it makes sense to squish 3 rooms (kitchen, dining, and great room) into two rooms that really don't fit them well when you actually have the extra room you need elsewhere in the house. It also truly pains me that you could have a really nice kitchen with a wonderful layout and multiple work zones for multiple cooks if we weren't trying to stuff a real table in there.

So I think something like this makes more sense as a starting point:

I obviously don't know the layout of your upstairs or basement with regards to how it'd work with moving the stairs, and this certainly should be where you consult with an architect and a structural engineer, but surely there is a way to group the stairs, foyer, half bath, and closet around the house entrance so that your great room can have a bunch of extra room added to it.

The way I have it, your foyer is wider, your hall closet is bigger, the half bath can fit under the stairs going up, any windows on the front of the house wouldn't need to move or be changed because they'd just be above the stairs going down, and your great room can comfortably fit a real dining table and a TV seating area. And then your kitchen could be remodeled to your heart's content without a table in it.

Here's an alternative placement of the exterior door for Plan B above:

You don't lose the basement window. It does route traffic in front of the fireplace but since it's likely you'd have an aisle of sorts in front of it anyway, placing the door closest to the fireplace doesn't eat up precious space as much as a door and aisle would at the other end of that wall would.

Here's Plan A redrawn based on your latest dimensions.

The island had to shrink a bit but it's still doable. I've linked to a single bowl sink that will fit a 27" cab. I'm sure there are others. Another option is to go with a 24" apron front sink in a 24" sink cab (not always possible, ask your contractor). That would allow you to increase the island cab by 3".

Here is a walk-in pantry with dimensions nearly exactly what I'm proposing for your kitchen:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Millbrook Architects & Building Designers Crisp Architects

Because I added a pocket door to the pantry, I added a 12" pull-out pantry cab between pantry wall and fridge. This will allow you to open the fridge doors wide enough to pull out the fridge drawers. I guessed a bit on your fridge size. If you can manage with a slightly narrow fridge and/or a counter depth fridge, that would give you a little more wiggle room in your kitchen.

I had to guess on a few dimensions. You gave us only one dimension for the side walls. I assumed they are 9" wide; double the thickness of standard interior wall widths. My calculations are based on that but that's why 3 of the measurements have ?s after them.

I also had to make a few assumptions elsewhere so you will need to double check my math to see if it fits your space and make adjustments as needed. We don't need dimensions of your current kitchen so much as we need the dimensions of it as if it were an empty space. IOW, corner to corner, corner to window or door opening, etc. We're not working with your existing kitchen's footprint, we're altering it so measurements based on its current lay-out are unnecessary and slightly confusing.

The banquette & table seats 4 on a daily basis; turn it 90 deg to seat 6. Black shows the day to day seating set-up, including aisles; blue shows the table turned for 6, including aisles.

The placement is a bit awkward because it straddles the shallow side walls housing plumbing and heating and the beam, and it doesn't straddle it evenly. You could place a chandelier above the table but it might accentuate that the table isn't centered in the space. Can lights might be the better option, especially since the table placement isn't fixed.

This plan is likely your least costly fix. Structural changes include the new door from garage to kitchen and the removal and new placement of plumbing and heating ductwork but existing windows and sliding door remain in place.

If you're going to entertain the possibility of moving the stairs to create one last space (a costly proposal), you should also consider building an addition, blowing out the great room wall opposite the kitchen. IIRC, you said you had a pie-shaped lot so this should be doable.

Here is a link that might be useful: BLANCO PRECISION™ 16'' R10 Single Bowl

I agree this is a situation of compromises. I really like the A plan you have drawn Lisa. My only real concerns with it are access to the backyard, given the stub wall, and making the table placement look okay given the beam. I agree that a flexible arrangement of pot/can lights is the way to go. I may consider the pillar of utilities approach again as it would allow me to shrink that stub wall.

Relocating the garage door to the front entryway, isn't possible because there is a structural, concrete block wall in that section (used to support a steel beam that spans the width of the garage and transfers the roof load from above). The garage is also narrow so locating the 1-2 steps req'd to change grade would make it difficult to park. Relocating the two story stairwell... Well, that's out of the budget ;)

Thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to look at my drawings and offered suggestions and feedback.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas that leave the wall between the kitchen/eating area and the family room intact?

I have an idea noodling through my head but haven't had time to put it on paper yet.

If the wall stays in place, are you still trying to fit a table in the space, too? Or are you willing to have the table share space in the great room?

I guess what I need to know what trade-offs you're willing to make. Are you willing to give up the garage door for eat-in space in your kitchen? Are you willing to move the back door to the great room? Are you willing to move the eating area to the great room for a larger kitchen, keeping the back door where it is and adding a garage door?

I don't think your space is large enough to put in all that you want. Or at least I haven't figured out a way to get it all to fit.

After some more attempts, I think my last paragraph above was spot on.

I've tried multiple configurations but I can't find a way to give you all you want without some serious compromises to function. Maybe someone else will have a brilliant brainstorm but so far, each time I think "aha, that will work" the math tells me, "uh uh." I just tried another idea that came to me in my sleep only to realize that it would give you 28.5" aisles. Uh, yeah, not gonna work.

It's time for you to decide what you're willing to trade to get something of higher priority for you. Will it be the door to the garage, in-kitchen dining with seating for 6, more counter and storage space, the back door, leaving the wall in place, a full size fridge, not encroaching on great room space ... you need to tell us your whittled down list.

I had a brainwave. If you switch the locations of the kitchen/dining and the great room, you can fit everything. I included two options for possibilities with that switch. It also just happened to work that your wall with all the utilities doesn't need to move.