I would think it depends on the requirements in your area. I happen to know a particular 1500 sq ft trilevel house (with bottom level considered garden level/non walk out/below grade) in one of my local counties doesn't count the lowest level, thus they think the house is 2/1 and is listed as such in the mls. Yet, the exact same floorplan in a neighboring county is listed as 3/2 because they do count the lower level.

Not exactly your question, but an example that my area's mls is based upon county records and/or tax assessor info. So no cut and dry answer...

Not an expert here. But there would be little point in specifying a difference between heated and nonheated if all one had to do was place a plug-in space heater in the room to qualify as heated.

I, too, can't imagine a portable would count. I think they mean what heat is provided by the integral building systems.

Hi Live Wire,

I'm a realtor, and unfortunately, I see inaccurate listings all the time. I've seen a what's been described as a wet bar in a finished basement be a table with 2 glasses, a couple of bottles of wine in a smelly 1/2 done basement, or a ravine used for drainage with 3 trees described as a "creek" on a wooded lot. It's not the way it's supposed to be and it's one of my bigger pet peaves because it gives Realtors a bad reputation. But just like you assumed (and reasonably so) when the listing said the house was "heated" that it meant that the whole house was heated and heated by the same source, any future buyer is going to have the same expectations as you did.

Contracturally, the sellers were/are obligated to disclose that there isn't/wasn't any built in heating system up there, which also makes me wonder if they even obtained the required permits (if they are indeed required in your area) to convert the attic to begin with, but that's a different can of worms. Anyways, since it wasn't disclosed originally like it should have been, I'm also wondering why it wasn't discovered during inspection so it could be addressed before closing. That said, in the area that I live in (Michigan) weather and heating bills are a big issue for buyers. I'd be concerned about how those heaters (hard wired or otherwise) affect an electric bill which as I understand it, can be considerable. I don't know what climate you're in, but I think it would helpful if you spent some time researching alternative heating options for both the bonus area and that bathroom combined. Ideas that first come to mind are a small separate furnace, or if your furnace can handle the load, adding the additional duct work to include those rooms.

Maybe you can post a thread in the heating & a/c forum to find out what low cost alternatives would work best for the area you live in. I'm sure whatever you end up doing you want to do it once, and have it right for while you're living there as well as when you go to sell. Good Luck and I HTH--Lukki

Flyleft, I'm so sorry, I was in the proofing stages of my script and obviously got the name wrong. I was thinking about Live Wire Oak and well...what can I say...I'm a dork!

Anyways, I hope live wire doesn't see it! I'm embarrassed. Still hope my input helps and please let me know if I can answer any other questions for you. Take care!

Portable heat does not count. In fact, where I am, you might have trouble getting a mortgage. It is very easy to install an electric baseboard (but not cheap to run depending on where you are). You didn't say what type of heat you have...do you have a boiler or a furnace? You mention ductwork, which usually means you have a furnace and forced air (although we have hydro-air - a boiler, air handlers and ductwork). If you don't have a boiler it would be expensive to add a hot water baseboard (which I think is what you mean by hydronic heat?).

flyleft, Fannie Mae guidelines specifically state that a room or area must be heated and cooled in the same manner as the rest of the house to be included as part of the gross living area (GLA). There are lots of other stipulations, too, concerning things like ceiling height, ingress and egress, etc. Often people are surprised when their square footage is substantially less than they thought, especially when there is a large bonus room with sloped ceilings. (The square footage measurements start at the point on the floor where the ceiling is 7ft. high.)

If you want the bedroom to be included as GLA you must heat and cool it the same way as the rest of the home. This rule applies in all states of the United States, btw.

Hi you all,

Thanks for your replies. It is as I suspected, although kswl's post makes it a little bit worse...I was figuring that we just had to accept the fact we were had to a certain extent, because of the basic desirability/"in demand-ness" of the house (and lukkirish, I could tell you stories about our realtor and her "inspector"--yes, *her* inspector...we erred naively back then by accepting the inspector she recommended -- our remodel has been a process of discovering one horrible inspectable danger after another -- it's a marvel we didn't die in a house fire before we could get to things here)...just maybe hoping we could get away with something that other people got away with, but that's never our luck. :(

I was *really* not hoping to hear that we'd have to run the gas furnace forced air ductwork up to the second floor in order to have it qualify as heated sq.ft. That really *stinks*. I don't even know if it's possible, given the layout of our house. What would happen if it's not physically possible?

There are doors, big windows, decent ceiling height (the room goes from about 5' to about 15', the mass of it above 8'--but I'll keep in mind the idea that we can only count what's above 7'--that's *so* helpful and it will still be a huge room), has a walk-in closet, separate bath to itself. It's a great space, just doesn't have built-in heat.

Slunking off to try to figure out how we could conceivably run ductwork up there...*huge self pitying sigh*

The answer is no. I'm putting my house on the market and I have a sun-room in which I put the same type of electric baseboard for heat. Works great and we enjoy the room. Had the Realtor in and she said it must be listed as a 3-season room. If we put in 'real' heat, we would need a permit and our taxes would skyrocket as it would be considered an addition. So we can't list it as a room, but as an enclosed porch.

Having lived in Mass, where we have a large stock of old/historic homes, I have seen this system used ...

www.unicosystem.com/Home/HomeOwners/SpecialtyAreas/tabid/318/Default.aspx

I believe 'This Old House' has used them for some of their projects.

Here is a link that might be useful: unico

Fly, if I may? Are you selling soon? In my experience, sellers get very concerned about disclosure and re-sale, and it's not always a big deal at all.

So you have an awesome upstairs "suite", that technically cannot be counted as heated/cooled sq footage unless you tie into the central HVAC. It's really not that big of a deal, IMO. You loved the house, and your DD loves her setup. Other buyers will feel the same way.

So here's what you do; install whatever secondary heating works best for the suite, then when/if you go to sell, have your Realtor make a note in the MLS listing the sq footage both with and without the room, and do a brief explanation.

House has converted attic space with separate heat source adding an additional 400 sq feet.... In our area, you see this sort of thing all the time. As long as:

1. It's disclosed
2. It's up to code (depending on your area; here the inspectors don't inspect for code, just for functionality)
3. It's a desireable usage of space

then buyers generally don't have a problem with it. The key here, again in my experience, is that it has to be an appealing usage of space. Remember that house purchasing is a very emotional decision. If the layout and function of the suite is well done, but it happens to have a secondary heat source, buyers will often "forgive" that and buy it anyway.

Now if it's a poorly done addition with too-steep stairs, sweating windows, uneven floors and the space isn't a desireable room, the "heat source" is a plugged in space heater, then yes, you'll have a problem. It doesn't sound, though, as if you're in this camp. ;)

In our last house we'd converted a second living room to an small office and 4th bedroom. We never did frame out a closet for the 4th bed, so *technically* it couldn't be considered a bedroom.

When I listed it, I simply disclosed that fact in the MLS. "4th bedroom has no closet, could be game room".

My house sold in 7 days and with multiple offers because it was well done, we disclosed EVERYTHING, and it was a desireable change.

I see houses all the time that have secondary heating/cooling. The best way to handle it is to make sure it's appealing to buyers, and just disclose the sq footage separately.

(I haven't had all my coffee yet, so I hope all of this makes sense. I'll come back in a bit and re-read it!)

Fly,

When we bought this place the heating was kaput!..and had been done in a umm.... creative way when it had been remodeled back in the 80's so we had to redo the whole thing after we saved up our pennies!.. (no real heat for 3 years in our 5K foot house...brrrrrr).. anyway when we were ready we did a Unico system.. the delivery pipes are very thin and can be snaked through walls and closets with little problem.. Find someone who have put in a lot of them.. they are good at finding ingenious ways to route the pipes and keep the main systems tucked away.. even in the garage!

maddiemom

I would just like to add another point of view to this discussion.

I live in a three-story custom log home, with an electric furnace in the basement and a wood stove on the main floor. The top floor has NO heat system whatsoever, and there are two huge bedrooms, a full bath (the only full bath in the house), and a good sized sitting area on that floor. The only heat that gets to those rooms is whatever comes up the stairs from the wood stove, which is actually quite a bit.

Half of the basement is finished, and there was a wood stove there, which we have removed. There are no heat ducts in the basement that I know of.

We have installed hydronic radiant heat under the main floor of the house. It's fueled by an outdoor wood furnace, and because the hydronic tubing is in the ceiling of the basement, it heats both the main floor and the basement (the entire basement now, not just the finished side).

However, there's still no heat source on the top floor. Now that we rarely use the wood stove on the main floor, the upstairs is cold most of the time. My computer is up there, and I use space heaters to keep warm enough to type. :-)

So, does this mean that when I sell my house, I count the entire upstairs as unheated? I don't think so, as the wood stove still works. I'm sure it was included in the square footage that was in the MLS listing when we bought the house, even though the ductwork for the electric furnace doesn't go up to the top floor.

The entire house is cooled the same way, by opening the windows. :-) (Actually, it stays cooler if we keep the house closed up.)

So I agree with reno_fan, it just depends on how appealing your house is. (We also have a room that can't technically be called a bedroom, because there's no closet. Which I find ironic, because very old houses never had closets in the bedrooms, they used armoires or hooks to store clothes.)

Just to be clear, the problem is not necessarily in finding a buyer for the house. A potential problem is the appraisal, upon which most mortgages depend. If the buyer's appraisal does not include the area in gross living area, the estimation of value could come in less than the contract price. Alternatively, the appraisal may reach the contract price but seeing a lower GLA than expected may give the buyer reason to change his or her mind.

If the area in question is heated differently from the rest of the house that part will be valued at roughly the same as a finished basement, which is also not considered in GLA.

All this may not affect the eventual sale of your house at all, but whether or not you tie into the existing heating---or put in an auxiliary heating source that is the same as the rest of the house, for example an additional heat pump---WILL affect the GLA and therefore the value of your home.

When listing a house with iffy square footage like this, here's what's common in our area. Of course, YMMV.

We figure square footage on the room with the 7ft ceiling height minimum. Then we deduct 1/2 the room's value if there is an alternate heat/cooling source. So if the average value is say, $70 per square foot, we deduct that room's total square footage, then add back that room at $35/sq foot.

I've been told by appraisers that they're only allowed to give that 1/2 credit if there is an alternate heat/air source, so that's been a pretty reliable method of pricing home for sale.

I had a buyer once who questioned the price and square footage of the house they were buying that had not only a sunroom, but a HUGE converted attic area with a different heat source. They thought the price was a bit high, so we called the listing Realtor and asked how they arrived at their asking price. They had disclosed the full square footage, but had only allowed 1/2 value for the 2 "bonus" rooms, and their asking price reflected that.

I think you're safe if you do a good job, do what works, and just know that you'll have to adjust the numbers a bit for that room when/if you go to sell.

L*rdy, I love this forum :) Such amazingly good and thorough information from all of you! *big group hug* :) I have to run--just checked here fast--and have lots more to say when I get back.

Whoever told you that they were allowed to give "1/2" the amount of value for a bonus room or basement or room with alternate heating was violating USPAP and Fannie Mae guidelines, reno-fan. I'm not at all disputing that s/he told you that, not at all--just that homes are not valued that way. I am an appraiser and can tell you roughly that a home with a value of $70 per square foot will have a finished basement value of at most $15 to $20 /square foot, and the rooms with alternate heating and cooling will be valued the same way.

There is some regional variation and custom, of course, but the way Realtor's arrive at an asking price and the way appraisers determine their estimate of value are two entirely different processes.

Poor adherence to Fannie Mae guidelines is partly what got us into this housing crisis. Every appraisal is now subject to the closest scrutiny in today's climate, and that will likely continue for the next few years at least. Conforming to standards when valuing a home is absolutely necessary if the value figure is to mean anything. It's not anything to worry about, flyleft, but you should understand this issue as it relates to the eventual sale of your home.

Eek. Then *several* appraisers have given me misinformation. I attend all appraisals, for both my sellers and buyers, and the 1/2 rule is something I've heard repeatedly, perhaps because there are so many finished attics in our area. The only time I've seen appraisers give 10-20% value is for an enclosed patio, for example. They don't count that as square footage at all, but will give it a value for being an enclosed patio.

Some of the appraisers are frightening. I had one guy who literally thought that a built-in spa adjacent to a pool was a "kiddie pool", and he didn't know how to value it. I thought he was kidding, and when he didn't laugh along with me, I realized he didn't know what a spa was. :::Shudder::: I just hate when one or 2 guys like that get into the business, as they make it look bad for the rest of us. Kiddie pool. Omg.
Of course, we're in a state that is so laid back it can be scary. We actually still have counties that have NO building inspections whatsoever. That's right. NONE. Nice, huh?

And our inspections and appraisals are very "mild", based upon what others have said coming from other states.
I'll have to assume that by "mild", that may mean not thorough!

Reno-fan, I know appraisers who haven't ever heard of a Subzero refrigerator!

I took the initial appraiser class when we bought a large property with acreage and the house had been about half-renovated. I knew we were going to have to finish it and also knew we wouldn't be living there "forever." My last child had gone off to boarding school and so I took the class to learn exactly what features give a home value.

The course was very informative, and I was actually recruited for a job right out of it. :) I did appraising professionally for about a year, and enjoyed it very much! I still take continuing ed classes to keep my license current although I am not working at it any more. One of the first things I did when I finished the course was appraise my own house. That experience was invaluable; my boss came down and helped me measure it (it's about 6500 square feet with some odd angles). We found that the appraiser for our mortgage had measured wrong, used incorrect information and generally had done a half-baked job. I called the bank where we were getting a HELOC to finish the renovation and brought it to their attention.... that resulted in another appraisal (at their expense) and a rise in value of $110,000 in our house----all because he measured incorrectly!

Anyway, I am still active in our state's professional organization, and that's one reason I follow these threads with such interest :)

kswl, your help is invaluable, as is yours, reno. It makes clear to me that at least in the past, during the sellers' market, there was fungibility. Sounds like now everything will be much tighter. It was odd--our appraisal came in higher than the purchase price, but we've been being taxed at the smaller size ever since. I'm not complaining about that, but I would like to maximize it by the time we sell. I was asking because we are planning to address it rather than buy a new space heater this year once again, and I was wondering what would be necessary to call it heated.

So kswl, what would you think of the idea of with representing it, if we choose to heat it with hardwired baseboards, as 1/2 the sf, *not* for appraisal purposes but for arriving at an asking price?

I'll have to look more at the Unico system, and *thanks* very much for calling it to my attention, chispa (and maddie), but I'm not clear at this point whether it can be *combined* with a pre-existing system as an add-on. We just replaced the furnace with a higher efficiency one a few years ago; I'm not ready to replace it all again...

kswl, if I may ask, what would you advise someone in my position? I really can't think where we could run a duct upstairs--what are our best choices?

I think you are correct that standards and accountability have become more important in the current market.

One important thing to look at is the context of your neighborhood/market area. Have the majority of homes been expanded into basements/attics or added onto? This might make some difference in how the area is calculated, as reno-fan mentioned earlier, and this would be a good question for an appraiser who is familiar with your neighborhood. Your Realtor should know a fair number of appraisers, and while s/he couldn't speak directly about your house without actually doing an appraisal (because that is forbidden by law) s/he could tell your agent generally how such areas are valued. However, it would be incorrect to use a figure of square feet divided in half. What appraisers do is calculate the square feet, then value it at a dollar amount /sq.ft. that is some proportion to the main GLA. It's a different calculation entirely from merely including the area at a reduced square footage.

One thing some people do to describe the entire area of a home is to say "2000 square feet under roof" which includes garage space and everything that is heated and cooled, whether or not it is all heated and cooled in the same manner. It's funny, really, that some of the most wonderful features of a home----screened porch, sleeping porch, storage rooms---that increase the livability of the property are valued at so much less than the main rooms!

I think having that extra bedroom area, with a hardwired source of heat that is a nice-looking, very good quality unit that has been professionally installed (or looks like it) and in an area where it is either not uncommon or is common for additional living spaces to be heated in that manner, you will not have a problem selling the house. However, when you count one room as 1/2 the square footage for market purposes that requires an explanation---and then you devalue the area yourself by having to tell them why.

What do you do about air conditioning for that room? If there is an alternate heating source what is the cooling method? Or do you live in an area of the country where central air is not needed?

A window unit in one room is a big no-no (love that techical term ) in a home with central air. That is also the tip off to an appraiser that the area has an alternate heat source. Many (it pains me to say this) do not even notice baseboard heating and will not ask about the method of heating and cooling unless the room is an obvious add on, or they experience a noticeable change in temperature going into the area. They are supposed to determine the heating/cooling source and then look for vents in every room. Many of them do not and simply assume that it is all connected. You don't have to point it out to them---it's not your responsibility to do their job for them----but a window a/c ....

I know this is not the answer you hoped for. I don't think there is any way to give a square footage figure that includes the room at 1/2 or any rate because if you do, you have both inflated the square footage for marketing purposes and have deflated the desirability of that square footage by calling attention to it.

Reno, I agree with your assessment above. I think flyleft just misunderstood the "1/2" as it applied to price/sq.ft and not the actual square footage.

This is a complicated question, and as reno says your local "neighborhood," which is what Fannie Mae calls the market area, and its customs rule. After all, an appraisal is only an estimate of value based on what price the typical buyer is paying for similar houses in that same neighborhood. :)

Re-reading my post, I will also say that obviously when we list houses, we need to make sure that our methods coincide (at least somewhat!) with appraiser's methods. Hence, my asking/listening to our local appraisers on how they value additions, pools, etc. It's a shame that I've been given what appears to be illegal information! So please, please don't think I'm saying to ignore what kswl is saying, as she's obviously more qualified to answer from an appraisal standpoint, where I'm speaking from a listing price and marketability determining standpoint. (I'm sure you already know all of that, as you're a pretty savvy gal, but I don't want anyone stumbling upon this thread and saying, "Well some girl name Reno said I could value my addition this way.....)

RENO-FAN you said it absolutely to perfection!

kswl, we cross-posted! :)

:) Reno-fan, all appraisers know that an experienced Realtor can come up with a fair market value for a home without doing an "appraisal" that is within dollars of a FNMA 1004 form.... that is the power of local knowledge. I would also trust a Realtor's value over a drive-by appraisal (short form, no inspection) any day!

While we're on the subject kswl, can you explain how it happens when an appraisal comes in significantly above the listing/sales price? I've always been told that it could raise red flags with the lender, and you don't see it often, but you do see it.

When we bought our current house, our appraisal came in 60k higher than our sales price, and our lender told us that the appraiser contacted them, told them of the discrepancy, did the best he could to adjust down, but still could not get the appraisal to come in any lower.

Now, from a marketability standpoint, our house was a dog; on the market for over 2 solid years. Functional obsolescence EVERYWHERE. Completely untouched/unimproved, etc.

How does that happen? (Not that I'm complaining, mind you!)

Just about the only thing that makes that happen is a very good and recent sale in the "neighborhood" of a house comparable to the one being appraised. Sometimes you'll have a buyer come in with cash (as from an inheritance or divorce settlement) who doesn't bother to get an appraisal. That sale can set a new high---although it is usually used as a fourth comparable since that doesn't represent the "typical" buyer.

Strictly defined, a "neighborhood" is the either in the same subdivision or within one mile of the subject. Ideally the sale should have occurred within the previous six months. However, in rapidly changing market conditions some lenders ask for comps within three months. There are all kinds of exceptions to this guidline; for example, when you are in a subdivision that covers several miles and the only comps are within the s/d but beyond a mile. And a comp in the same s/d is better even if it is a mile or two away than a house just outside the s/d boundaries that is only a half-mile away. Things like s/d amenities that would attach to the subject but not the comp "outside the gates" so to speak, even if those gates are only metaphorical.

When you have semi-rural properties or areas with no subdivisions it is permissible to go further away and farther back in time for comparable sales. It's very possible that someone bought a house a few miles from you that was in some way very like your house---and bought it within a few months of your own purchase.

It's all about group behavior and not individual actions... you look at trends in sales and what other people have bought recently in the same area, try to find sales that match your subject best. When you have no subdivision, or you're in a rural area or dealing with unique properties, often the most difficult task is to identify the most important feature of a home---the number of bedrooms? the tennis court? the five-car garage? the finished basement media room? That's why Realtors are such wonderful resources for appraisers---if they will use their knowledge. They know what is selling houses in their area. Sometimes it is a school district---I've seen people pay $300K for a two-two in a highly desirable elementary school district. That's what makes the business interesting, there is something different with every assignment.

You all -- you know, I could never have gotten straight answers from a local professional...your generosity is so appreciated. If you need any editing, dramaturgical, literacy or nonformal adult learning-related advice, you know whom to ask :)

Don't be concerned about the legal aspect, reno (that is your real name, right? :)). On lists on other topics that I'm on there's a disclaimer abbreviation after any medical talk: NTBCAMA, or "not to be considered as medical advice". There's also a corollary, NTBCALA, which applies here, no worries :)

So I'm thinking that we'll hardwire something in, and when we go to sell we'll be fully open about it, and also indicate that it was sold to us as regular sf, and we've made it better (along with everything else in this house...back when we were doing the kitchen we decided to call this the "beer in two hands remodel", as an indicator of its professionalism relative to the "beer in one hand" remodel concept...). I just don't think it's physically possible to put a duct up to the second floor, unfortunately.

I'm saving this thread for the day, with any luck many years from now, that we sell.

Where is your current duct run? Is it underneath the house? In my area the attic is usually the space it is run so it is fairly easy to add to it in an attic room, but if in the crawlspace it might be a little harder.

Do you have any closets that line up with the upstairs? You could run the duct through there and box it in upstairs. Maybe if you have knee walls put in some storage there where the bottom has the duct running in it.

Ach! I didn't see this, lyfia (replies don't come to me). Thanks for your reply. The duct run is underneath the house, yes. If it had been in the attic (which we don't have -- we have one set of eaves but a cathedral ceiling in the top of DD's bedroom), I sure hope the original builder would have put some registers in upstairs rooms! But no, not in this case--the furnace is out in the garage and the runs are in the crawlspace. There aren't any closets that line up with the right room in the upstairs, unfortunately. Before we remodeled, there were, but no longer.

I appreciate your thoughts, though. They confirm for me that we've got a special situation and it will just have to be accounted for as such when we sell, and when we do, we'll be handing over a *much* better equipped and safer house than when we came in.

An encouraging update: we had an HVAC guy out today (our relatively new furnace is having problems, but it's still within warranty and will be addressed) and he gave us a *much* better estimate for finding a way to the upstairs than we'd had a few years ago, as in 1/4 the cost...Odd. The economy?

So it seems that we'll be able to get it done, make it honest heated SF after all! Yippee :)