Hey Canicci!

Peas in a Pod here! When you are interviewing potential KDs and GCs, you can ask them about this. My GC is someone who can do things either way depending on the client. Generally KDs don't want people like us as clients because we are "high-maintenance" or "too fussy". Too bad! It is my kitchen, we are paying for it and we are the ones that have to live with it. I also do my best to treat each and every one of the contractors as a human being, taking a few moments to get to know them and to THANK them for the work they are doing. By doing this, I generally have no problems with contractors. YMMV.

Seriously, a KD might be more flexible right now, but they will want you to use their products etc. The other problem with KDs is that most of them will do your design, order your cabinets and possibly your sinks and faucets. After that, you are on your own. That means, any changes in flooring, lighting, appliances, paint, windows, GC recommendations and more are up to you. If you are like me in wanting to be "Green", it becomes even more challenging because not that many places have that blend. We have been lucky in that we found such a place, (after we chose our KD) and we have been able to use their expertise in the "other areas" which has been invaluable.

Most importantly, when interviewing KDs and GCs, trust your gut! You will be spending a great deal of time with these people for weeks to months, often under stressful conditions and you have to be able to work things thru. If you have any doubts about someone, pass on them. You might not find out right away why, but eventually you will, and you will be thankful that you passed on them and potentially unhappy that you didn't.

It is a fine line between being a " " and getting what you want. It also helps to be calm but clear in all of your communications as well.

I am going the self-design route. I shopped around for a contractor and hired one that is specifically in charge of the demo and putting everything back together, installing the cabinets, fixtures, electrical etc. I am not purchasing anything through him.

For cabinets I went to several local showrooms with a layout to get rough pricing, decided which line I wanted (Brookhaven), had them measure, make the drawings and order the cabinets. Everything else I am designing, choosing, and purchasing on my own - WITH THE INVALUABLE HELP OF THIS FORUM!!! And yes I went to the local granite place to pick a slab and they will template and install.

I did not formally "hire" a KD - although the one from the cabinet showroom technically acted as one as far as the cabinets were concerned. I did ask her a couple of questions about whether a certain sink would fit in the counter OK - but I considered that related to the cabinetry install.

It is certainly more work this way but I have saved money no doubt and most importantly I am getting what I want! I hope it works - demo is supposed to be in around 6 weeks, as soon as the cabinets arrive!

Good luck!

Tina

I'm doing pretty much the same as Tina. My GC is flexible. He said I can order everything through him or get everything myself and he will install it all, etc... I didn't like the line of cabinets he had, but I may use his granite/tile connection as he says he can save me money, but that's only if I see what I want. You have to be clear upfront with the GC when you interview them that you are buying everything yourself. Also, when you are shopping for granite, fixtures,etc, make sure to mention that you are working with a GC but buying all your own materials as they will usually give you the contractor discount. Good luck!

I never used a KD. My GC is very flexible. He buys when he can save us money with his discount. We buy when we see something we like and he doesn't have a better source. He has also sent me to certain stores I might never have found on my own - like a store that only sells knobs and pulls! I agree with earth_pal, trusting your gut is very important. And I asked him up front how he felt about me buying things on my own, to make sure this wouldn't be a problem. I feel fortunate to have found a "good" one.

I've worked with all types of customers. Many have had very specific ideas about what they wanted in their kitchens, and those are actually easier to work with than those who don't have a clue as to what they want. The only caveat would be that a client who has very specific wants needs to be realistic about the budget required to actually pay for those wants. You're not gonna get a marble and soapstone upscale kitchen for 10K.

However, I'd like to say that although you can certainly use me as an "ordering agent" and not use my design services, you will get a much better kitchen if you do work with me on ideas. For one thing, not all cabinet lines have the offerings to be able to accomplish certain things. For instance, in my super budget cabinet line, you've got a 30" or 36" pot and pan drawer offering and that's it. Move up a grade, and you have a 24" drawer thrown into the mix. Move to the mid budget line, and you've got a 27" an a 33" added to the mix. Etc.

The real value of a kitchen designer to someone who has very specific ideas about their kitchen comes from knowing the cabinet lines that they represent and what is possible in those lines, as well as the clearances that will make your kitchen actually work and be able to open the doors properly. We also may have ideas about finishing touches that you may not have considered, such as a particular molding stack, or a certain way to integrate an island's back panels with decorative corbels and panels. Those aren't things that someone who doesn't know cabinetry will be able to help with, and they aren't things that a "cabinet ordering person" will know to check or to suggest.

With respect to appliances and fixtures and electrical, I ordered them myself. I remember my electrician being fine with it--happy with it even--saying something like "I'm an electrician, not a salesman", and my GC felt the same way. That's because they are both well aware how time-consuming it is to choose, order, and receive that stuff. You will save $$, but keep in mind what your time is worth too.

When buying everything yourself, you will need the expertise to choose these items, i.e. the correct sizes, brands that work for you, various technical requirements (particularly for electrical items), plus the aesthetic sensibility to choose the right things. This forum will be the greatest help in that. Then, shopping for these things takes enormous time. Then, once purchased, you need to keep abreast of lead times, backorders, safe storage of items once they come in, and inspection of items to make sure you received the right things and they're not damaged in any way. There will likely be a few returns--you'll need the perseverance to deal with that too. Now do you see now why contractors charge a mark-up? It's a lot of work. And it's stressful too.

Having said all that, I'm glad I ordered everything myself, not so much to save money, but because I liked the "control" it gave me. I would do it again absolutely.

Regarding my granite, I felt I needed the expertise of a professional to help me. I used an interior designer who charged by the hour. It was worth every penny. I know I do not have the "eye" to pick out a granite from the enormous selection out there, and was happy to have her help. I discuss the process in the linked thread below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread about KD and Granite

I definitely went the route of doing designs of the kitchen myself. Since I have two 45 degree angles in my kitchen, I knew the most important part of the remodel was getting either semi-custom or custom cabinets. So, I first shopped for cabinets. I went to Lowes, Great Indoors, and 3 local independent dealers....Here's my experience:

1. Lowes was expensive (I was looking at the Schuler line) the "free" KD did not impress me, I spent 2+ hours with her and didn't get the feeling she could do much more than place cabinets in a program.
2. I tried to get a quote on Omega from Great Indoors....I was running late for an appointment and the KD left before I got there. I decided to look elsewhere.
3. 1st independent - Rep'd a few lines including Kraftmaid, I didn't get a good vibe from her, she didn't ask me anything about how I cooked or what what my family was like, she went straight into "what granite do you want".

4. Had seen ads in local publications for a locally owned shop that rep'd two lines and could do custom cabinets. This is ulitmately who I chose as he worked well with me and gave me both aesthetic advice and cabinet construction advice. We had some bumps along the way during construction, but everything was handled to my statisfaction. Problems will arise and it's the ability of both parties to work toward a solution that makes everything a success.

5. 5th was a full custom shop with a GC that had done my neighbors house. I just didn't get a good vibe from him.

I ended up going with a GC (I interviewed a total of 3) that works mostly by himself that came highly recommended from another neighbor. He has been wonderful! He let me get as much stuff as I wanted (I just made sure I had it well in advance for him). He also, picked up all the can lighting and under cabinet lights, and plumbing electrical stuff. I did get my soapstone separately too, but the GC could have done it.

Sorry so long...I think you said you were in So. Cal...so if you need recommendations I can give you a few depending on where you are.

I hired a GC that can do it all or let you do it all. I ended up being somewhere in between. A few interesting items:

Background: I remodeled most of the house (except bathrooms), enclosed a patio area, added exterior hardscaping, etc. The GC that I hired specializes in kitchens and baths and likes to cook.

Cabinets: He sometimes builds his own but decided that we'd save time if I purchased them separately. After demo, the GC measured everything up and came up with a preliminary arrangement. He had good experience with a particular cabinet sales lady at Lowes. So I met the GC at Lowes, picked out the cabinet style and tweaked the arrangement a bit. The sales lady, with some imput from the GC, took care of the order, including cabinets, fillers, molding and additional finished plywood.

Granite: GC's fabricator had a couple of preferred yards. I went to one, gathered samples, mulled over them for a while, and then picked out slabs when the time came. BTW, the granite yard staff wouldn't tell me the price of the slab. They did, however, let me know the relative prices of the samples I selected.

Plumbing, lighting, surround speakers, hardware and appliances: I shopped these items out on my own. GC installed.

Doors: GC picked the interior doors. I picked the fancy front entry door. GC picked the rear doors (three sets of French doors, rear entry door, bedroom door and sidelights) based on my requirements for low exterior maintenance and paintable interior.

Flooring for living room and bedrooms: I purchased the flooring through a warehouse, GC picked up and installed.

Flooring for kitchen: This item was the last to purchase, and I suffered a complete shopping breakdown. GC went to the tile store and picked out three samples. I chose one.

The GC was really good about keeping my shopping on schedule. I had purchased a number of items prior to demo. But I still had a lot of things to purchase throughout the remodeling job. He would tell me that he needed some item in three weeks. Then I would finalize my decision, make the purchase and arrange delivery. Basically, work didn't stop because they were waiting for something.

The upshot is that you need to find a GC or KD that is willing to let you pick and choose what you want. But you also have to (1) keep on top of things to prevent delays and (2) be willing to work with the GC or KDs subcontractors and suppliers when necessary.

Thank everyone.

When we start to look at GC and KD, I'll keep in mind all your suggestions. I will need the advice from professionals, and know that someone that designs kitchens will have ideas that I would never think about. I will pay for the professional advice. I'm not trying to avoid paying people.

I think my main concern is about how much control I have over certain things. I know I will be picky about location of cabinets, appliances and counter tops and I do not want to have a situation where I can only pick from what the KD or GC offer. Other items, I'm not so particular about.

I'm not going to do the kitchen again anytime soon, and as someone said, it's your kitchen and you have to live in it when the KD and GC move on to the next job. I'll be very upfront and see if the KD/GC are willing to work with people. I can also compromise if something I want is just not going to work. I hope I won't be a high-maintenance client.

I've already had an argument with DH over it. He was talking about some of the recycled countertops like ice stone. I told him about some posts I've read about etching. That would drive me crazy. I want a countertop that I can put a hot pot on, that is easy to clean/maintain and that I don't have to worry about stains and etching. And that may not be the countertop that DH wants - he is more form over function. But as the cook and cleaner, I'm all about function and I'm the one using the kitchen more. He'll be great at choosing the colour of the counterop as I'm hopeless with colours, but the type of countertop has to meet my requirements or we're not getting it.

Live Wire Oak - thanks for the reminder about budget. I can see the difficulty when someone wants something that they can't get on their budget. It's one of the reasons I'm hanging out here to get ideas and work out what I do want and what things cost. I will need help with all the decorative touches and how to integrate the kitchen into the look of the rest of the house - this is an area I truly struggle with. I will get a KD to help us. I just want some flexibility in what they can provide,and what I can get on my own.

Marcy 96 - thanks for the information about contractor discount. I thought the contractor would have to be with you to get a discount. Nice to know that I might be able to get it when on my own.

ackchicago - what I good idea to hire a KD by the hour for help with certain decisions. I'll have to remember this.

i know that getting things myself will be more work and I'll have to have them in enough time. I actually think I'll be a more inbetween person. Some things I want to get on my own, and other things I want them to get.

Becktheeng - We're in the Valley, in Glendale actually. But I have no problems with driving to where ever we need to go to get what we need... I would love any recommendations you have. I will post for other recommendations as we start to organise things. We're still in the "next project is the kitchen" and I'm starting to gather ideas.

Canicci - just for clarity, I hired an interior designer by the hour, not a KD. I don't know whether KD's will do hourly work, or whether they instead will only work on an entire-project basis. I used the interior designer for her sense of color and pattern, as I am hopeless at that. I didn't ask her advice for my kitchen itself. She helped me choose my granite, and also helped me later with my backsplash (BTW, backsplashes are a bear to choose!). Other than that, I planned/laid out/purchased everything else on my own.

I'm down in the South OC, so I'm not sure my guys would travel to the valley. I know my soapstone guy would if you are interested in him....Soapstone Werks in Escondido.

I know there are people on the board from that part of So. Cal. You could probably get some references. I definitely found it helpful to talk with GC's when trying to scope out my work (it was more than just the kitchen). As I remember you are considering bumping out the house, so that could require an architect, but definitely an engineer. A good GC will have worked with engineers and may have a recommendation. I interviewed 3, all from references (2 neighbors and one from my cabinet guy).

AKChicago,

You aren't kidding! I am working on that right now and am thankful that I work in fused glass cuz I might be doing some of the backsplash tiles in addition to the knobs/pulls. We are getting DeWil's cabinets in alder with a butternut finish and Vetrazzo Floating Blue countertops which is an aqua/turquoise color with some gray, amber and white in it. One tile person I talked with the other day told me "we are using an accent color as our main color and no one does that. And why didn't you get white cabinets?" Needless to say, we won't be ordering tile from her.

Canicci...
keep checking in with us. We haven't done demo yet but hopefully by January, I will have had a few months, including Christmas Day!, to have tested out our Vetrazzo countertops and I will be able to answer your questions regarding the recycled glass countertops. Ironically one of the reasons we chose these countertops over some of the other green options is how few of them you can do the hot pot on if needbe!

Budget... start saving now if you haven't been already! My husband just sent me the latest revised budget and... Well, our remodel will our presents for this year's BDs, last week's 20th Wedding Anniversary and of course Hannukah/Christmas!!

Ah, your last paragraph, reminded me about something we haven't mentioned yet... the balancing act of getting what you want along with what your spouse/partner wants. I am lucky in that my DH eventually realized what I did after a week of remodel research... we were going to spend more money than we had first thought for a basic kitchen and for something reasonably nice it would be more. Adding the green factor has cost us some more money but we know in the long run on resale, it will come in handy. Course, I live in the SF Bay Area! ;)

But seriously, it really does pay to balance how their needs and wants fit into the puzzle known as Kitchen remodeling. It is thanks to my DH of thinking about extending into a nook area that we were able to make a lot of things finally work for us in our design stage. And he is the one that gets to let the electrician in the door tomorrow morning at 7am while I am still getting my beauty sleep! ;)

becktheeng - I will ask for recommendations from people here that live in same area. DH's uncle is an architect and DH wants to talk to him about what we can do. He lives in another state, but he's designed houses/buildings around the country and world. Our job will be very small in comparison to his normal work, but DH wants to get his advice. An architect, who used to work for his uncle, now lives by us, so we may talk to him after we talk to our uncle at Thanksgiving. We'll also ask around and see who other people recommend.

I would love to bump out the breakfast nook and laundry room, I did a quick measure and it would be 94.5 square feet before it interferes too much with the back yard . We'll have to see how much extending would cost compared to redoing our current floorplan.

AKChicago, We've already got some money saved for the kitchen, but we do need to save more. As I'm reading here and starting to think what I would like, I've realised it will cost more than I thought, so we do need to save more. And then I'll have to sit down and really think about my "want" list and what we don't need to do.

DH will be involved in all the kitchen plans. But I do think that as the main user of the kitchen, my voice will be a little louder. We really need to improve the function of the kitchen. I just made a pie and it would be wonderful if I didn't have to move everything to roll out pastry. DH doesn't cook and I want a kitchen that is easier for a cook to work in.

Canicci,

oh my dear, of course YOUR vote is the tiebreaker! I just wanted to mention that sometimes our spouses/partners see things that we don't and actually do come up with an even better idea than we do sometimes! ;)

For example, when we were getting ready to visit the Vetrazzo factory to pick out our slabs, my DH asked me if I could be focused and not be distracted by all of the cool countertops that we weren't buying etc. I replied that while I appreciated his concern, that I had spent x number of months on this project, and that this was one of the "fun things" for me and that I would like to be able to enjoy our visit. This is what I meant in my first posting about the balancing act between taking care of business and being a b... Turned out that my DH had lots of fun at Vetrazzo and was glad that we looked at everything else that caught our eye before we left! Happy Ending!!

Maybe your new kitchen will inspire your DH to take up cooking or baking?

earth-pal, it sounds like your trip to choose counters was fun. I am going to need DH's help. I don't do aesthetics. And I get paralyzed if too many options. We got quotes on our driveway and one place that we decided against, said they would match the quote we were going with. Price wasn't the deciding factor, but I still ummed and ahhed. DH was the firm one that said to stick with original decision. I also think I'll need him to reel me in, I see such lovely kitchens, and I want it all.

I'm also the worrier and the one that wants to be prepared. Friends got caught out with their remodel and had to do extra because of city regulations. Once school goes back, I'm going to take myself off to the city building. I know they use the CA building code, but I need to find all the city amendments. I'm not going to just trust the architect or GC on this...but I used to be a law librarian, so it is kind of my area to figure out what legally they will let us do, and then we can design around that.

I read all of the posts and have a similar question. We hired a KD recommended by a friend who was in the middle of her remodel. We did not interview a number of people. Just wanted to get started. We've already paid him quite a bit. He started with the pitch of "i can do as much or as little as you need...." We've agreed with him on a set price cap, which we've paid. I've already told him that we are getting other cabinet bids along with his preferred cabinet company bid (he reps one line). Anyway, the personalities do not mesh, he really is a talker and we have 2 little kids and hardly enough time to talk to each other let alone him. If I ask a question, its a good 1/2 hour at least. We dont want to pick up the phone. Its not fun. But, now we're in the middle, kitchen is gutted and contractor is pulling his hair out, but we dont have a set kitchen plan yet. I've finally put my foot down today and made some decisions. He may be used to dealing with people with unlimited budgets. We dont even have a guide to give my contractor for the lights... the kd has never even mentioned lights... and my GC is asking where we want our electrical. I wish I would have found this site sooner before I hired him... but now .. we're in a temp kitchen (aka laundry room) and I need to get this done...
Any recommendations for how to get this guy moving away from his own cabinet company line and on to important decisions that need to be made about the kitchen to keep my gc moving? Another problem I have is that this kd sort of billed himself as an architect/interior designer/ and kd and now my gc is telling me his "plan" is not accurate with the numbers or scale!!! He's also really angered my GC... talks down to him, orders his crew around... I would be afraid my GC would walk but he likes us and I know he wont. We need a KD intervention.... should I just part ways and finish it ourselves? is there hope?
(also, cabinets I'm thinking of are inset flush by Kountry Kraft? or Aristocratic?).

KMKeenan, oh my where to start?

My first recommendation would be to post a separate thread so you can get the maximum input for your situation. If you already have, then I apologize for missing it.

My second recommendation is STOP! You and your DH need to step back from everything and evaluate what is important to you and make decisions now regarding your kitchen without having the pressure of ongoing construction going on. I know that it is easy for me to type that. But, what is jumping out at me is that you are getting ahead of yourself in this game and by continuing down your current path, you are headed for even more problems.

Generally I would say pick the GC over the ID. But in this case, I have great concerns about a GC that would start a demo on a kitchen remodel project without cabinets being ordered and no final design in place.

My third recommendation is back up and do this project the right way. You need to address these problems right off the bat.

1. Tell your GC to stop what he is doing and that you are putting a hold on your project till you can give him a final plan AND your cabinets are ordered. He might not be thrilled but in the long run, it will make his life easier!!

2. Decide if you want to stay with the ID or not. Since you have paid this guy.. I would send him a letter, expressing your concerns and putting him on notice that unless he can meet these concerns (direct short conversations included!!), then you will be parting ways. I would also start looking around for other KDs for backup.

3. DO YOUR PLAN. You can't build something that hasn't been planned, thought thru, looked at by your city's building dept., and that you can find appliances, cabinets, countertops, flooring, paint and more for without having done the necessary work. Have you even thought about what you want in this kitchen? Do you and your DH agree on most of that? Have you thought about the kitchen from the perspective of how will your kids (and their friends!) use it? These are all questions that I highly recommend you answer before proceeding any further.

4. Once you have done #3, then please have your GC start doing his thing.

Earth pal, thank you for your comments... I have not posted seperately and I will do that. We did start before we were ready. Our GC was desperate, we wanted to start while we had summer weather to minimize the headache of being out of the kitchen... and we thought our kd would move faster or that at least they would tell us when things needed to be done... Didn't happen. I do feel like we have a fairly set plan at this point. I have 2 cabinet bids coming and a third on the way. I know what type of counter top I want but not picked out etc. We are matching our wood floors that are throughout our house... and have picked the sub there. Have the appliances picked and all but the fridge are here. I know the type of sink I want, but dont have it picked out etc.
BUT, nothing has been done about lighting. There are other electrical questions etc.
I am going to talk to DH about just telling GC to stop if he has to be not rush any decision.
Typing this all out I feel a little further along but know we are in trouble and delayed for the cabinet bid.
thanks

Hi KM Keenan!

Thanks for your update! It sounds like you are a little further along then you alluded to in your first post, but you are nowhere near where I would want to be before tearing out my current kitchen!

KD move faster.... chuckle... enough said there!

I respectfully disagree tho regarding your comment about your "having a fairly set plan at this point". What exactly do you mean by you have 2 and one more cabinet bids on the way? Are these actual kitchen layouts with cabinets and appliances where you want them? Or is it approximately what someone thinks the price of cabinets for the size of your kitchen space will be? There is a huge difference between the answers to these questions. If it is the latter, then what you really have are some of the components to a kitchen in mind, but you haven't come to a decision as to how they all fit together.

I am guessing that your appliances are in boxes somewhere? Do you have the specs or the dimensions and space needed for all of your components handy on your computer somewhere? I would check your cooktop and sink specs to make sure you have the right cabinets for those items. That is where yours truly ended up making some unexpected last minute changes to our design!

Can you post a layout or a photo of the space so far, in a separate thread, so that we can all help you make this happen? There are so many people with talent and expertise on this website and I believe by doing that we can help you get past this feeling of "oh, ____" that you might be feeling right now.

Whoops, electrical... what do you mean by "other electrical questions"?? Lighting is one of those catch 22 items. It is important but it is driven by where you place your cabinets and appliances respectively.

It is easy to get distracted from including lighting into your plan. I know we did and I am scrambling to make that work in our design. The main thing I would focus on with electrical, is determine roughly where you think you want lighting and where are the respective light switches going to go? Your actual fixtures could be decided a little later if you feel that you have too much on your plate right now. And even those of us who are extremely methodical have days of where we wonder if we will ever sort thru all of this fast enough!

Looking forward to seeing your space/layout pictures!