Maybe I'm not reading your post correctly but...........what is your question?

Am I correct in assuming you are looking for overall advice as to how to reconfigure your kitchen and dining room? If so, my first question is, how much can you bump that back wall out? Is two feet the max?

Your drawing helps to see the overall layout, but it would help a lot more if you could provide a detailed drawing with complete measurements of everything. Could you get some grid paper (or print some out from online, google grid paper)? Then you can draw the actual dimensions carefully, each square representing 6". You'll probably get very specific help if GW'ers have that information.

What I'm thinking, at first glance, is this. Yes, your DR is small and the biggest problem is that it is the walkway going from your LR into the kitchen. So it makes it impossible to center your table in that room. What if you pushed your back wall out 2" (more would be better) and got rid of the round table. Instead, you could use that space for the kitchen, maybe reconfigure the laundry room and 1/2 bath AND then have an opening from kitchen into the LR directly. Close off the opening between DR and LR so you can have a long, narrow table (36" x 72") centered in the DR without any traffic flow issues. Am I helping or way off base?

What's downstairs?

Do you use your garage? I've seen garage spaces turned into marvelous living spaces. It all depends on what your needs are and how much money you have to spend.

No matter what, your project will come out fabulous if you spend this time pondering, measuring, pondering, talking to GW'ers and pondering and measuring some more, lol. When I was adding on to our home, renovating rooms, etc, I kept a tape measure in my hands at all times. My family laughed at me constantly. I knew what I was measuring/thinking, but to them it looked like I was just randomly measuring from point A to point B because my measuring antics were constant and over the top. But that's what it takes! You have to intimately know every dimension of your space and proposed space . . . and you have to know every dimension of appliances, cabinets, furniture, etc that you want to fit into the space.

"dining room never used"...figure how to use dining room zone before starting construction to add more space. Try moving half bath here-existing plumb stack from master bath can be used-then some quiet desk/computer/seating here as well. Can you break into wall that houses stove/frig?[might be load bearing]..anyway-that whole space with new opening could be liv/dining/kitchen.I'd aim for one dining zone with drop leaf or expandable table. Half bath is now moved-lots of storage avail for kitchen reconfigure....can still have laundry/cubbyhole storage down where half bath was.. add pantry perhaps...then kitchen can open up with less worry about storage.Embrace your smallish home...are you sure construction for bump out will reap you that much? People are going to want small/well designed spaces.

Thanks for these awesome ideas! Boylanite, sorry, I didn't spell out my question, which is: what is best thing to do with this strange layout as caused by the stairs being where they are. So many ideas, but how do I know which is best? Just last night I began to wonder for first time, what would it look like to put a galley kitchen where the present DR is. It would fit well. Then I'd walk past stairs, AGAIN, to a DR relocated to present kitchen. Then somehow open it to LR.

OR, what about closing off the path between DR and kitchen. Thus placing stairs against a new wall. No one would ever be walking past them 50 times anymore. So traffic gets rerouted away from stairs. w/o 3D computer program this is very hard to visualize.

Bump out if needed is limited to 2 feet out, remaining under roof soffit the same as bay windows are.

I have been hoping to finish this kitchen like a year ago, and it never even begun. :-( Thx in advance for help

Do you think it's feasible to move the stairs to an out of the way location? What is downstairs anyway? Do you need to access the downstairs from inside the house or could you live with just an exterior cellar hatchway?

Here's MyGardenWeb's layout she's asking about:

Buehl how did you post the picture? Thank you! :-D

To start, if we could do something to reroute the traffic path from the DR, would you be willing to eliminate seating in the kitchen and use the DR for all your meals?

I don't know the size of your windows, but could they be changed to counter-height? You have to replace at least some of them if you're going to make the back wall of the house line up with the bay window....

Are you pushing out the back wall the entire length of the house (i.e., laundry to DR) or just the DR side?

If you're only doing the DR side, I would square off the left side of the bay as well to make that area more useful and bit more roomy.

I agree with JudyDel, if you can push the wall out at least 4' and the window out 2' to match, it would help a lot... Part of your problem is the narrow opening b/w the stairs and the back wall...even if you add 2'...4' or more would be much better!

It would also help if we had actual measurements...see the "Read Me" thread (linked below). Scroll down to the "Layout Help" topic.

Here is a link that might be useful: New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!

I clicked on your link, then clicked on the picture, and copied the code in the box labeled "HTML Code" on the far right of the page.

I then pasted it in the "Message" box here, previewed, and submitted the post.

Could you relocate the stairs to be sorta inline with the hall next to the master bath? That would let you have one large kitchen/dining area instead of two different too small eating areas. You could even create a passage through to the family room, which would help traffic a lot.

Moving stairs is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as a bumpout. A small bumpout is proportionately the most expensive space you can add. That first 2 feet can cost you 30K, whereas if you did a 15' one instead, you might only be at 50K.

hi,

It seems that you will benefit from having a one hour consultation with an arquitect or a good general constructor. You will need to know which walls are load bearing and what costs of different projects might be. We were told that bumping out the kitchen by 2ft would be a great solution, that it is not that expensive because the 2ft would extend over existing foundation. But in the end, we could not find a constructor willing to do it, so I am not sure how true this is.

I am assuming you use your garage?

I have no expertise with layouts but what if you moved your kitchen such that you used the area with the bumpout as part of your cooking/prep/etc? Get rid of the table and use the dining room to eat. Then open up a doorway on the wall that currently has the stove so that the main entry to the kitchen would be from the living room instead of having to go through the DR. Someone else can probably help you with a layout that would work, but if you could open up the wall where the stove is, then use the wall next to the bathroom as well as incorporate the bumpout into the plan, that might be a reasonable alternative to moving stairs, adding on to the back, etc.

Is it possible to trade the kitchen and the dining room, including opening a doorway from the living room. Then, maybe take out the angled bay and do a box bay with a sofa or a built-in banquette. Do a bar/coffee bar in the dining room using the old plumbing?

Absolutely consult an architect or good contractor. The #1 thing you can do for your home without major addition is to relocate those stairs, to a shed addition for instance. If not economically doable (i.e., cost outweighs value added), accept and decorate that afunctional "DRM that never was" as a nice hall, maybe with a desk allowing it to perform some additional function, best leading to an extension if possible though.

BTW, must you have an attached garage? If not, that extremely valuable space there might be much better used as part of your home's living area.

Thank you all! I'm responding to many of your ideas. Yes I plan on replacing bay windows with counter height type, so that cabinetry can go beneath them And yes if the wall isn't completely bumped out, I will square off the bay to place furniture or cabinets easier within. I found out that adding 2' to the back will reach edge of roof and no more, and this won't require extending foundation so cost is reasonable. Moving stairs against master bath would be perfect... but it means rebuilding/moving the full bath that's in the basement, which is stupidly NOT IN LINE with the upstairs bath. I can't use the DR as it is now to eat. It's too small and feels too far away from everything.

Can anyone envision if I closed the connection between Kit and DR, with a wall, so the stairs are against it, and the rerouted traffic? How would you envision the spaces being used, does this make sense to do? I haven't yet fully thought it through, it's just an idea I am trying to play with.

Where the roofline is in relation to the back wall isn't the important consideration. It's where the foundation ends. I doubt if the foundation ends 2' out from the back wall. That means a new foundation will be needed, as well as engineering the load bearing processes of the roof, as well as just about everything else. A 2' addition is just as complicated and expensive as a much larger addition but without the gain of any real space.

The most economic approach is to repurpose existing spaces. Perhaps that may mean moving the laundry room into the current dining room and making it a large pantry/laundry/bath area. Then you could annex the current laundry and garage areas.

I am no design/architectural expert . . . but I always thought you could cantilever up to 2' without the need to extend the foundation.

I have a 2" bump out in my dining room with no foundation. I've seen much bigger ones with no support. I think last year fine home building magazine did an issue on bump outs. It was amazing how much difference 2 ft can make.

Yes I was told 2' can be cantilevered and not require extra foundation... But if I bump out I will have to stop at half the dining room, so not to cantilever above the basement bathroom window (another annoying obstacle to my planning).

We discussed turning the current DR into a hallway of sorts with half bath and laundry w/louvered doors on the right, stairs remaining on the left. But perfectionist me could still not commit! Worried how it would look to enter the home and see a hallway in front of you. IF I DO THIS... what stuff should I keep in mind to make the house look beautiful and well planned, and intentional? How do you envision flow? What are pros and cons of open LR/Kit vs a Walkthrough opening?

Do you have a layout/drawing with measurements (each window/wall/doorway and the distances b/w each of those)?

You have a small house overall and until we have better measurements, it's difficult to say what will work and what won't.

Can the Bay window area also be bumped out 2' so it's still 2' or so beyond the new DR wall? I'm asking b/c right now, it looks like even with a 2' bumpout in front of the stairs, you don't have enough room b/w the kitchen/stair wall and the back of the wall to put a counter run in and still have a workable aisle. But, if the entire bay window can also be bumped out, you might have enough room...again, without actual measurements, I cannot say.

Here is layout with all measurements. I am trying to stay underneath the soffit when I bump out. So the large center window in the bay is the maximum distance out, and the rest of the walls and windows would line up with it. I need to decide how much of the wall to bump out, or square off, and how to best utilize the interior space.

This house can look really awesome if only the flow was open and comfortable, with a bigger kitchen! As you can see, there are doors and walls all over the place. :-)

The tiny squares with x's are the A/C vents. The long wall dividing living and kitchen is load bearing.

Yay, I uploaded the floor plan! I don't know why it's sideways, sorry

Unfortunately, some crucial measurements are missing. For example, how wide is the aisle b/w the stairway wall and the outside wall? Here's a pic of what's needed (all inside measurements, not outside):

A: ______________
B: ______________
C: ______________
D: ______________
E: ______________
F: ______________
G: ______________
H: ______________
I: ______________
J: ______________
K: ______________
L: ______________
M: ______________
N: ______________
O: ______________
P: ______________
Q: ______________
R: ______________
S: ______________
T: ______________
U: ______________
V: ______________

Buehl, here are the measurements you wanted, listed the same way you did:
A: 36"
B: 54"
C: 34"
D: 60"
E: 24"
F: 34"
G: 9"
H: 36" incl. door frame
I: 23"
J: 71" incl. window frame
K: 16"
L: 25"
M: 47"
N: 32"
O: 88"
P: 45" to outside walls
Q: 32"
R: 86"
S: 118"
T: 114"
U: 192" (exactly 16')

I don't have a compatible computer program that allows me to enter all the measurements, so I totally appreciate this help :-)

I am reposting the current layout, with the interior measurements included for my tiny kitchen. Goals are: Good traffic flow, a large and comfy place to eat and do homework etc, massive kitchen storage increase, ease of connection between living and kitchen. Everything I've thought about seems to have a serious drawback or sacrifice. I guess that's going to be reality in my case, but how will i know which is the best plan to go with? I would really appreciate help. Thanks!

BTW...you're probably not receiving emails of follow-up postings, even though you checked the box requesting them. This is b/c you don't have the email option turned on in your profile. See the "Read Me" thread for more information. Scroll down to the post with the subject "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process".

Looking at your further diagrams, it should be fairly easy to move your powder room to be back to back with the bathroom (door to the hallway) and move the laundry to the current DR as well. There might be enough space left over to have a pantry also. Especially if you combined pantry/laundry areas. Then bump the current laundry wall into the garage by the amount it would take to line up with the kitchen wall, and now you have a nice large space for both kitchen and dining, with the dining area using a banquette in the bay window for seating. You could then have an opening between the kitchen and the current family area, making the whole area more connected and yet open feeling. You wouldn't need to relocate the stairs or bump out the back. With a basement and the adjacent bathroom plumbing, as well as the plumbing where the current powder room is, this shouldn't be expensive or difficult to accomplish.

The only "if" in this scenario is would you be willing to lose space in your current garage in order to have better traffic flow and a more unified space in your living areas?

If you seek even more space after thinking about Green Design's ideas,you might ponder a downstairs move of the laundry. Ranch homes often have the laundry on the lower level. You said there is a bath downstairs-would a laundry/storage-designed space also for hobbies,etc be a consideration for the lower level?

Regarding Laundry Room downstairs...I grew up in a rancher with the LR downstairs and it's still there. My 76-year old mother has no complaints about its location today! (She's in great shape w/no knee/hip/ankle/foot issues, so YMMV.)

When we built our house, we stole the laundry area for a pantry (and with the remodel that space is now where my ovens + pantry are) and put the washer & dryer in the basement...the only complaint I have is that we don't have a laundry/utility sink in the basement and now that we have a front-loading washer, no water source down there.

Would I do it again? Absolutely! IF we put a first-floor master suite addition on our house (after college!), I will probably add a first-floor laundry room...but until then, I"m OK with the washer & dryer in the basement!

BTW...even when I was pregnant, I didn't mind the basement location.

Mygardenweb,

I am going to strongly disagree here about the laundry in the basement... I had a ranch with the laundry in the basement and I absolutely hated it. I had piles of dirty clothes with two young children, and each time I decided to do the laundry meant three trips downstairs (putting the clothes in the washer, then in the drier, and bringing them back). I think having the washer and drier next to the bedrooms was the single best improvement in my life of the last 20 years...A stackable washer and drier will save space and can be put in a small closet next to the half bathroom.

I guess it might depend also on how big the family is, how much laundry is there to do.

I am looking forward to hearing whether you use the garage or live in a milder zone where it is not really needed.

I am without power almost 4 days...viewing your msgs on little smartphone...thx so much I wil reread everything on big screen when I have l8ights back on. Hope evryone is well and thx again

Moving rooms: make the current DR a combination laundry room, pantry, mudroom. I would suggest also (as someone already has) move the second bathroom there - unless - it's needed in it's current spot as a clean-up bathroom when coming in from the garage. If it is needed move it down to where the washer/dryer are currently, if possible.

Open up the wall between the kitchen and living room creating a great room idea.

If you were going to close the wall between the kitchen and DR would it be the kitchen wall or the DR wall that you would close off. I think the kitchen wall is the one to close off. The door then would go into the mudroom/laundry room newly created. Although I put your pantry there. But the pantry could also go where the small bathroom currently is and if you closed that door off would you still need one for the kitchen going into the back?

Anyway, food for thought.

Four days without power. Hope it's back up and you're luxuriating in normalness. :)

Well, when you're ready to tackle this, I think the general idea described by GreenDesigns sounds like a really good way to go. There's a lot of space that could be better configured over behind your garage, and in the back of the garage? (Although you've never said whether you guys would consider converting any unfinished garage space for living.)

Regarding the idea of making the "DRM" a hall visible from the front door, allowing a view right through the house from the entry is a very time-honored configuration, in large expensive homes for elegance and light and to provide a view to the garden, in more modest homes for air conditioning and light and to create a feeling of spaciousness, as well as that pretty view. A classic means of creating a very inviting first impression on entering.

Doing that would also allow you to move your door to the back garden there, freeing up wall space in other areas where it might interfere with counter placement or a create traffic problem (like with dining chairs). It would also allow you to take ideas from some of the wonderful, charming multi-function halls shown in design magazines to make this space a delight to walk through. I remember the term "a luxurious waste of space" a designer used to describe something she wanted in her own home--because she understood the tremendous influence it can have on a home's overall feeling. Much more than just pulling its own weight.

Hmmm, hopefully just doing catchup at this point. Bump.

Hi I am here, power is back on, and so happy to get back to normal routines again. Still thinking and drawing and measuring... Methinks laundry needs to stay on this floor. I go to those machines so often, checking if they're done, or just drying something a little bit.

I am now sketching out the 1/2 bath in the Dining area, removing it from back of house. Maybe entry bench/place to hang coats next to it. But now, where to put the patio doors? Currently there is a regular swing out door to deck right in front of the stair landing, of course this must be removed and placed elsewhere. If my kitchen will have cabinetry and sink under the window that used to be bay, and new DR will be somewhere in kitchen/LR, then where does patio door go? That's my new question for you guys! I REALLY wish I had a good Mac compatible design program so I can see 3D renderings of all this.

There's no reason that you can't replace the current door at the foot of the stairs with a larger glass door for access outside. That would keep it close to the kitchen and create the possibility of a "mud" type area for the new laundry bath location. Straight in from outside to the bath to wash dirty hand after depositing muddy shoes in the laundry.... It could work.

Or you could place a large single glass door where the current window in the laundry room is located. You wouldn't even have to change the header, just rework the drywall and siding. You could also just add a pass through window above where your sink will be located and use that to connect with the exterior while leaving the door at the foot of the stairs. A lot will depend on what type of outdoor amenities you have and how you use those now.

I can see the fridge and oven (or a snack area, or a large china hutch/storage combo) located where your current sink area is against the stairs. Then you'd have an opportunity for a large opening between the family room and kitchen area, framing the dining table and banquette at the bay window. Your cleanup sink can go where the bath is currently located, and you could add a window if budget permitted. Across the galley, there's your range (venting straight up through the roof, or horizontally to the exterior through the current garage space.) You could have a bit of a peninsula where the opening to the family room is located, with stools for perching and maybe a prep sink in that peninsula.

And you're mostly recycling/re-distributing/reusing the current space that exists, which is right up my alley and always kinder to the pocketbook. You could even recycle all of the bath fixtures to their new location. But, what makes this an easy option is that you can piecemeal the project and DIY a lot of it. Putting in the bath and laundry into the current DR will allow you to keep using the old facilities until the new are ready. Then you can demo the old without losing any functionality during that project. If you put in a laundry sink, then you can do dishes in that while the kitchen sink is out of commission. :) The whole project becomes easier for your family to deal with because of the minimal disruption.

Hello! I found a website called AutoDesk Homestyler that's free, and allows me to put in dimensions of floor space, and some simple furniture and cabinets, and then click on a 3D button to see rudimentary 3d images of the space! So excited cause it's free. There's only one tilt angle available, but I can spin the room around. So it's not so bad for zero dollars spent.

I am sketching out an idea of the kitchen in the back of house, closing off the wall between stairs and kitchen. Then, after opening the whole living room to the kitchen, placing a dining table right there. Between Kit and LR. But that space is 10 feet left from garage wall to stair wall. Is this too tight for a rectangular dining table going left to right?

you can do lots of different things with tables: a drop leaf with one leaf down for day to day and pushed up against that garage side-use the 3 sides routinely but pull it out from wall for larger groups. A round 42-45 inch with chairs placed so you can walk through from liv to kitchen...a farmhouse table which is narrower but longer and place the length from kitchen down toward liv rm. Rectangular from left to rt? probably just fine as well,depending on length...if it's really long the garage end could butt up to that garage wall-place 4 chairs, 2 across from each other along the lengths and optional use of 5th chair at open end. Many ways to configure...

STILL sketching up floor plans. Recently decided I want to plan for a sunroom off the exterior kitchen wall that faces east. . My present kitchen, although tiny and shabby is wonderfully sunny and bright. I was thinking of attaching sunroom here to increase living space in the home. But will it prevent the east morning sun from shining into my remodeled kitchen? Should sunroom not be placed here? Location of sunroom/deck doors depend on where this sunroom will be. Hence, my kitchen still can't get off the ground... Going crazy.

Hi, there. Percolating ideas is just part of the process. As is the expanding project. :)

I love sun rooms and actually designed our current living room as a large one. Were you thinking of a year-round room that the kitchen is open to? In that case, although you'd give up standing in the sun, I think the sunshine streaming into the space before you would still be cheery. Our attic bedroom has a view to the south, and we really enjoy watching the early morning rays lighting up the trees fringing a nearby lake.

If it were accessed only by a door so it could be closed off in winter, would it work to put it on the east wall outside your micro-DR and bath, perhaps extending farther right? Since south is to the right, though, a sunroom there might block morning sun to the kitchen in the chilly, low-arc months. Depending, of course.

I'm not sure if it has been suggested, but I would rotate the stairs 90 degrees and put the top landing next to the living room wall where it meets the kitchen wall. Open the DR wall to the new stairs and connect the DR to Kit opening upper wall behind sink.