Check with an antique store that deals with antique art. Maybe it is worth something.

OR:

3 choices:

1. Ask the seller if he'll pay for the return shipping because it was not at described. Or ask if he'll give you a partial refund. He may agree.

If he doesn't, then

2. If you paid with PayPal secured by a credit card, go through your CC company. You'll get your money refunded in full.

3. File a "Not as Described" dispute and maybe, but not likely, you'll get all the money back.

The print is very faded, has moisture damage (and possible mildew or some sort of stains under the glass,) and print is crinkled at the top.

That would be reason enough for me to send it back, but I wouldn't expect to be out anything for shipping. They misrepresented their item, probably through oversight and not intentionally, but the fact remains that you didn't get what they advertised, or what you thought you were getting. I wouldn't be comfortable giving something as a gift that I felt was damaged, nor would I want to go to the trouble of trying to sell it on Craig's List. As for the true value of the item, I wouldn't have a clue about something like this -- but the bottom line is (I think) that it's inferior, quality-wise, to what you thought you were getting.

Their response to your expression of dissatisfaction sounds like a "canned" response to me. I'd email them again, explaining how you feel the item was improperly represented, and tell them that you expect them to reimburse your shipping costs for the return, as well as the purchase price. It will be hassle enough that you have to repack the thing and take it somewhere to be shipped. You shouldn't be out any money here.

I'm really sorry this happened. Disappointments are usually few and far between on eBay, but sometimes it does happen. :-(

I wouldn't want to pay the return shipping and it can be hard to get a seller to agree to refund you the WHOLE amount. You can ask the seller to refund you the shipping (both ways) and if they refuse go straight to PAYPAL and lodge a complaint. Yes, they did say the print was in very good condition and beautifully framed. "Beautifully framed" might be subjective but very good condition has standards that they did not meet (water damage alone!)

In any case, whether you decide to keep the print or not I would encourage you to leave honest feedback, something to the effect of : damaged print described as very good condition. This helps other e-bay buyers in the future.

Unfortunately, eBay rules specify that refunds do not include shipping charges even if the item is not as described. I think it's unfair but that's the way it is.

Sometimes, the seller will agree to refund shipping just because it's good PR if the buyer is non-threatening when voicing a complaint. But you can't force him if he refuses.

I'm sorry that happened to you. As monablair said, if you dispute it through Ebay and win, you still will have to pay to ship the item back and you may not be refunded your entire amount.

I had a similar situation a few years back with an item I bought. The buyer in my case refused a refund, so I had to take it to ebay, and they sided with me, but to send the item back would have put me out about $20, so it wasn't worth it.

I'd suggest weighing the pros/cons of keeping/sending it back. At least your seller is being cooperative...that's definitely better than the experience I had above. Good luck!

I only ever received one defective item off eBay and I also lost the return shipping costs. It was a pricey French handbag and I was really annoyed to discover it was probably seconds...very poorly sewn seams. That woman had no business selling that bag as "new". I found the process with the seller to be very aggravating.

For thirty-some bucks, I'd probably give it to charity and call it a day. You have to figure out how you feel about the "wrongness" of the misrepresentation vs. the hassles of packing, shipping and waiting for a refund.

The canned response makes me think this is an ongoing problem for the seller...?

newhomebuilder: I don't know if you read about my experience last year with some defective (and definitely not as advertised) Bergere chairs I ordered on eBay, but based on that I can tell you that going through PayPal to issue a dispute will not get you anywhere--other than a complete waste of time and aggravation. Bottom line, is their stated policy that you agreed to upfront when you went through PayPal (and I've seen written evidence of the policy), is that even if an item is not as described, PayPal expects you to pay the return shipping before you can be given a refund for your purchase. You can argue until you are blue in the face how unfair that is--that is their policy and you agreed to it. In my case it was close to $200--so there was no way I was going to absorb that cost to return ship what looked to be sold by a fraudalent seller (he told me to make a claim through Greyhound for items that I was able to prove by a professional were damaged prior to shipping). In the end, I launched a dispute with my credit card company and received a full refund that way (including the shipping). They said I was in no way obgliated to pay return shipping for a defective item--though should return ship at seller's expense if they wanted it. I return shipped COD. They did want me to provide evidence that I had attempted to resolve the issue with the seller--so I kept a record of dates and names of phone calls and emails I had made with both PayPal and the seller.

Thank you for the support and advice. I rushed to post this, because my daughter was waiting on me to go shopping and I am just back home.

I should have explained that if I gave it as a gift, it would be to a friend who loves roses and antiques. I think she would like the print. The moisture problem is at the very top (not seen in the photos) and is not that noticeable unless it is held up toward the light. Same for the tiny spots that look like mildew. However, I would have to ship the print to her, too. lol

I will ask the seller if they will refund the shipping (to have it shipped back) along with the full refund and shipping charges ($32.50.) If they refuse, it is not worth a fight. After doing a little more research on the print, I'll just try my luck with CraigsList and be honest about the condition.

I will take a photo for y'all tomorrow and try to show the damage and frame. Maybe someone can identify the approximate time of the framing. I'm thinking late 60's or early 70's.

Thanks for the responses!

newhomebuilder, it looks like your seller has had this very problems recently.

Looking at this from the seller's point of view, they may think they described it accurately, but seeing the number of listings, I bet they didn't look at the item as carefully as someone who had just a few items listed would. The seller probably thinks you wanted to get a discounted price from them. From your line that you were going to give a neg but wanted to talk to them first, they probably saw that as being pressured. I've had sellers do that to me too, and I've had buyers do it also although they usually asked for the discount in the first email.

I would take pictures of the areas showing the damage you've described and send those to the seller, and in the email say something like, "As you can see, the print is mildewed, etc and will need restoration work. This is something I did not expect when I placed my bid. Since
this does make the print 'very good condition', I don't think I should be out expense of the return shipping. This is what it will take for me to be a satisfied customer." And don't mention anything about feedback. JMO

marti8a - I knew the seller had a couple of negatives, but I couldn't find the specifics.

It is obvious that the seller didn't even look at the print closely, and just assumed that it was a Philip Reinagle, which most Thornton prints are. Could be to my advantage, value wise. I will have to check and see.

Seller had three other Thornton prints for sale and I think they came from the same owner, because they were all similar in size and framing. Perhaps two of them were Reinagle. However, if you are going to sell something, you need to get your facts straight and report the condition more accurately.

Oh I agree. I bet this seller bought a bunch of stuff at an auction or estate sale, gave them a quick glance, saw the biggest name on it, didn't double check anything, and listed it.

That's one reason I don't like selling used things anymore.

Wait and see what the seller says. I was a Power Seller on eBay, we do make mistakes! A good seller will offer you a full refund including your shipping cost for return on an item that was this badly described.

If the seller is not willing to do anything, did you pay by PayPal? You can file a claim with them, they find for the buyer about 95% of the time, but you will be responsible for shipping it back.

If you do want to keep it for your friend, ask the seller for a discount. I did this often, and found that many buyers were just fine if I offered a nice discount; no hassles with returns.

Just not worth the bother to dispute. The seller has offered a full refund, but I would still have to pay shipping to either get it back to him, or to PayPal if I disputed. I would be out $15, so I might as well keep the print.

Here are some photos I took this morning.

eBay print compared to my 1981 book plate. See how vivid the colors are as compared to the framed print? For some reason, both the seller and my photos show the print to be more colorful then the actual print is to the eye. lol Believe me, the print doesn't look that great in person.
{{gwi:1873902}}

Chintzy Frame
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Print notations
{{gwi:1873905}}

Crinkling on upper edge
{{gwi:1873906}}

Mildew? You can just make out some spots if you look in the beam of light above can light reflection
{{gwi:1873907}}

While I realize that some fading is expected with older prints, my print has had more than it's share of sun and is not in great condition. I wanted to show you the old print I found by the engraver Earlom. Although this print shows some aging, see how the colors are more vivid than my print. (see link)

Here is a link that might be useful: Antique Roses

1) You're certain that book plates are accurate representations of the original work of art? Publishers frequently sharpen and play with colors.

2) Why would you want to give a friend a piece of art that you wouldn't want in your own home? It's good enough for her, but not for you? Maybe her eye wil be as good as yours and see the little imperfections.

3) Get the bad karma out of your house: Post it on Craigslist and be done with it. OR: Return it to the dealer and get the opportunity to post negative feedback (which you CAN even if he/she accepted a return, as long as you state ALL the facts). Posting negative feedback can help the next prospective customer of this vendor down the line. And I think that's the most considerate thing you can do.

QUOTE
1) You're certain that book plates are accurate representations of the original work of art? Publishers frequently sharpen and play with colors.

No, I am not certain that the colors in my book are exactly correct, but I am certain that Thornton prints have more vivid color. Remember that I have owned two of the original large print plates. Sold them to an art dealer in D.C. who is an expert in Thornton's. The prints were much more vivid than this eBay print. Even back in the time these prints were originally painted, Thornton's Temple of Flora works, had a contemporary flair.

"They were first printed in color and then finished by hand, making it one of the earliest works to use this method. The prints have a bold, dramatic impact unlike any other, the result of not only the superb engraving and coloring, but also Thorntons use of classical landscapes in the backgrounds."

If you are not familiar with them, see below link. Besides, if the eBay print came from a book, then it should certainly be brighter than it is.

QUOTE
2) Why would you want to give a friend a piece of art that you wouldn't want in your own home? It's good enough for her, but not for you? Maybe her eye wil be as good as yours and see the little imperfections.

Funny thing that you should say that. I discovered when taking photos of the print, that it actually looks good with my brown study. I have the perfect spot for it, too! Although I am not crazy about the framing (and I think the thing might fall apart if I try to take it out) I have toyed with the idea of keeping it.

My friend would love it, no matter what.

QUOTE
3) Get the bad karma out of your house: Post it on Craigslist and be done with it. OR: Return it to the dealer and get the opportunity to post negative feedback (which you CAN even if he/she accepted a return, as long as you state ALL the facts). Posting negative feedback can help the next prospective customer of this vendor down the line. And I think that's the most considerate thing you can do.
I received a surprising email from the seller, after I emailed him about paying for shipping. This is what he said.

"How about we pay for it as well if you will send it usps. Fair enough? Just mail the receipt."

Hmmmmm.....I didn't expect that, so either he is a member of this forum, or he is trying to avoid bad feedback. He has been so accommodating, that I would hate to give bad feedback, though.

Now I have to decide what I want to do with the print. lol There is no guarantee that the seller will send me a refund once I send the print, so I am still undecided about sending it back. Plus, it's still going to be a pain the wrap, get it to the post office, and make sure it is insured. The seller could claim that he never received it, or that it arrive broken, and I may be out the entire amount!

Oh law, I think I may just try my luck on CL and if it doesn't go, I'll keep it. It will be a good reminded to me to never by art off line again. lol.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tulips

I think most good sellers on ebay will do that. If you still have the original packing, just repack in that. You can print your postage online, opening an account at USPS is free and you can pay for the postage & insurance with a credit card, print it, tape it to the package & request a pickup.

marti8a - Thank you for that information. How would I know what the weight is? The print was in a huge flimsy corrugated type box, but was packed with plenty of bubble wrap and air bags.

The seller does have a pretty good rating. Also, he seems to be willing to work with you, so I would be very hesitant about leaving him negative feedback. Rather than go through the trouble of CL, and having people come look at it, I would either do as someone suggested, donate it, or send it back and hope that he does refund your shipping also.

Several here have bought some very nice artwork. You just have to be careful of who you are dealing with (check rating and feedback carefully, ask the seller questions, etc.) and do your homework on what you are buying.

Personally, I would have a problem with the mildew/mold and would not want to keep it in my house. Nor would I want to give it to a friend.

tina

newhome, is there a computer printed shipping label on the package? If it is USPS, the weight should be in small letters on one of the edges.

tinam61 - Since the seller has been very responsive,I was not planning to leave negative feedback, but will also not leave anything at all. I will ask the seller to change his other listings and be more careful in the future.

Good point about the mildew in my home. Also, I think y'all are getting the wrong idea of giving the print to my friend. It would not be a gift, I would just ask her if she would like it. Anyway, I've decided to send it back and trust that the seller will pay up.

marti8a - The seller sent the print UPS. I wish I could send it back UPS. I'll look at the package.

I'm confused. If you had owned real 18th century prints, why would you think this repro on ebay was the real thing? I don't believe for a second that it came from a period book. If it did, it was some cheap mass-produced art book from the 1970s.

People on this board constantly call reproduction art "prints". Not that you're doing that, but if you knew what the real McCoy looked like, why would you have gone for this?

newhomebuilder,

If you do end up returning the item to the Seller be sure to send it USPS with Delivery Confirmation. PayPal requires DC for proof that you actually did send the item back (in case Seller claims he doesn't receive it back from you).

After you receive your complete refund, you might give the Seller feedback - a Positive with comments along the lines of "Condition not as described. Thank you for refund". This way you give him his Positive for being a decent seller and refunding you, and also warn others about his inaccurate listing description. I think that would be fair under the circumstances.

another_linda - Both good points to consider. Thank you!

ideefixe - I never said that I thought the print was an original. It was sold as VINTAGE (not an antique or "the real thing.") As I said, the print is probably from an older Temple of Flora book and was then framed in the 60's or 70's.

While older prints from books can be worth a little money, the new reproduction poster prints (that are mass produced and sold these days,) are not worth the paper they are stamped on.

I occasionally check eBay for Thornton listings. I bid on this print, because I liked the way it looked in the photos, and thought it would make a nice addition to our home. Plus, the price was reasonable! I really didn't expect it to have any more value than I paid for it. The reason that I am not happy, is simply because it is not in the shape that seller suggested.

A Print is the correct word to use for a reproduction. The originals are called original paintings, oils,water color, engravings, plates, etc..) We had original plates.

From the dictionary

Print - A design or picture transferred from an engraved plate, wood block, lithographic stone, or other medium.

I understand about you possibly giving it to your friend now. And I'm glad to hear that the seller is being so cooperative. The print's still not what you'd hoped for, but at least you have a few options for ridding yourself of it. Or even keeping it now. In spite of its flaws, I do think it's a pretty print.

Not to belabor this, but a print struck from an original engraved plate is indeed a reproduction, but it's not a reproduction in the way a poster or other copy is. You own quoted definition says that.

This board constantly has people using "print" when they mean poster or printed reproduction, and of course, there's a huge difference.

And Vintage is meaningless, as we all know, in terms of ebay sellers.

I filed a dispute with a seller on ebay and got all my money back. There is a waiting period for seller to respond to ebay etc. but did get full refund.

Well, I have the "print" all bubble wrapped and packaged up. I wrote the seller early this morning to ask where I need to send it, but have yet to receive a response. I want to take it to the post office tomorrow around noon, while I am already out that way.

BTW - The weight on the box says 4.4lbs. and the shipping cost says it was only $10. I paid $15.00, down from the $18.00 that they originally wanted. lol Thanks again to [I think] Aunt Jen for advising buyers to ask sellers about reducing shipping cost. Apparently, my seller took a little more for shipping my print.