I love this place. I have used this as an "expert forum" and have used it extensively while remodeling our own home and projects. I am very grateful for and impressed with the level of interest and expertise that youre showing in the problem.Based on this I will give you broader understanding how it works. Home has been in my family for 50+ years. It is shared and owned by 7 siblings (with spouses, children). We are now in our 50s and 60s with children and grandchildren, etc. Collectively there are 59 people in immediate family. The ages are from newborn children, seventeen children under age of 15, and then on up to 92 years of age. The home is the physical place that keeps us all together. There has been no changes or upgrades to the building over the last 25 years since fire destroyed home. We are now willing to tackle some dramatic changes. The home is used extensively four months of the year. Three families, sometimes more, may be using the house at one time. Two families are in the main house and one family in guest house (not shown.) The guest house will be subject to another posting - we are doing a complete teardown and rebuild this fall 2009. So we have a second kitchen in the guest house and a fairly large outdoor grill for grilling. Kitchen problems: During the week there may be one or two cooks in the kitchen along with family popping in and out for breakfast, lunch, drinks, etcetera. We commute back and forth to work from this home and our children still maintain their activities. Dinner time could be one family during the week. On the weekends it is a free for all. There could be as many as 4 or 5 (unwanted) cooks bumping in to each other in kitchen. My sister-in-laws are excellent cooks. They range from home made pizzas to gourmet cooks. All family members are free to use the beach, main house and on Sundays everyone is welcome (my big fat Italian family). The kitchen orientation has the cooking food prep area to the back of the kitchen or the north side of the kitchen. The south side of kitchen faces the lake. The east side of the kitchen is an exterior wall and west side butts against staircase and is limited. seating area with a beautiful view of the lake opposite. There is a formal large dining room off to the right facing the lake where most of heavy eating is done. However, sticky fingers, younger kids are relegated to kitchen area so we need some type of low maintenance eating area in the kitchen along with quick breakfasts by family residing there in the week. The new kitchen will accommodate or have 5 burner 36" range and oven combination w ventilation 2 refrigerators - one mostly for beverages and trays casseroles, etcetera 1 microwave 1 dishwaser (love to have 3) but very limited space Toaster oven Toaster Coffee prep area I will try to post pictures of what currently exists in the side entrance laundry area. The men and few family members insist the current seating w minimum of four people with as many as six if possible. Because of the small kitchen we feel the range is either on north wall or the east wall allowing ventilation to exterior. The home is not air conditioned. Overall, the kitchen is 17.5 feet North to South, 13.5 feet east to west. The pantry in the photographs with the double doors which will be removed is approximately 45" and can be totally removed and it would blend into the formal dining area (not shown) The window on south wall facing the lake/beach, and is 6 feet wide. The window on the east wall over the existing sink is approximately 87" in length. Which leaves 15" from north wall to edge of window. Very limiting factor. We are stumped how to get useful functional island that can accomodate seating in such a narrow kitchen. The width of the kitchen does not really allow for useful functioning island with circulation around it The pantry area to the north of the kitchen is approximately 36" square. Currently that is where one of the fridges sits. Structurally the exterior walls of building cannot be moved. They are heavy poured concrete w stone veneer. Approximately 85" of west wall running from north to south (where range is currently) Is there a chance of extending the sink run toward the dinette area? Yes. How far is the is clearance between the island and the sink? Proposed island is 36" Where do you plan dish storage? (Paper plates lol). This is a problem that we have to work out. The island in proposed layout was temporary unrefined thought. Is it possible to move the doorways? It is not possible to change access to room to west nor change access from the north but both openings can be increased in size. Obviously not less than 36". Is it possible to move waterworks? Yes can be moved anywhere in the kitchen. I wonder about the choice to increase fridge space at the expense of pantry space. The home is empty during winter months. There are currently 2 refridgerators in the kitchen. One is located what we referred to and have not shown what we call a small pantry area along with side entrance on the north wall (not shown) The idea is to remove fridge from small pantry area and make the area an area recycling bottles, beverages, garbage, laundry, mudroom entrance area on the north side of the house. (Not photographed) By the way, if somebody can recommend good software program, wed lay the whole house to help solve the problem. During parties food is buffet style on the tiny u-shaped island. Usually a line out the door to dining room, cleanup which as mentioned can only have one person at sink, and usually delays dessert and coffee prep. We keep dishes bake ware and utensils up there. If family has a preference for a certain utensil or coffee pot they can bring it up. I wonder if an otr mw is the best choice for a multi-use kitchen? If consolidating cleanup and range and island in the same "one butt" space is a good thing? In this In this layout the oven door and dw doors control access to the water. Someone using water will have to move out of the way of someone who wants something from the base cabinets in the islandette. I think, but am not sure, you end up with less prep space than in the current layout. This is also a current problem - very limiting. Is this a vacation house? Yes. Are the two refrigerators shown actually a separate fridge and freezer? They were both refridgerators - freezer in other house. I see two microwaves? Is one actually a convection oven? That is a mistake by the kitchen designer. We only want one microwave oven. When you say cooking is important...by how many people at the same time? Four to five. The place between the refrigerators will never be used for prep with the only sink so far away. Thats very true. I was hoping to have a drink area/coffee prep, wine glasses, regular glasses, cups, saucers, etcetera on this wall. If you have a lot of countertop appliances maybe this is ok, I am not sure how the kitchen gets used. Additional appliances not shown are : Toaster oven, coffee pots, This kitchen is very small for multi-family use. Tight aisles, little storage, little workspace, limited/shared landing space, etc. Do you have a separate pantry elsewhere? There is a small space (not shown) with a side entrance door, another fridge, a utility sink, washer and dryer which we would like to use as storage for paper plates, paper goods, beverages, recycling (a lot in a small space) As others have asked, does everyone work in it at once? We also have a guest cottage - we use that kitchen along with an outdoor grill. Family members also prepare trays, dishes at home and bring up with them. Never enough room in the fridge to accommodate casseroles, trays, etcetera. Sister in law prepares home made pizza up there. How does it function as a multi-family kitchen now? What are the things that work? Don't work? I have tried to get feedback - the people that dont cook dont care. The men think it is important to keep view out the window and seating area. (ugh). They do not want to sit on stools. As I said theyre not cooking and preparing though. Is the seating area off the kitchen in the pics the only dining area? I only see 4 chairs. If you could expand into the table area you would dramatically increase your options and make it a true multi-cook kitchen. I agree with you. I envisioned putting the stove on this wall and putting a very narrow island down the middle of the room with chairs/stools that could be pushed underneath. Like a cozy up bar, etcetera. I thought the two fridges would have been great centered on the current pantry wall, along with additional small prep sink. possibly under. We are very open using that exterior wall. Do you have a layout (can be hand-drawn) of how the kitchen fits in with the rest of the first floor? This is useful for a traffic flow analysis as well as where things would "fit" best. I do have a layout which I will post tomorrow. Husband left it in the office. It looks like the table area looks out over the beach (reflection of beach in windows)...is that the case? Is it right on the beach? Yes, it does look out over beach and it is right on the water. Heres an outside partial shot. I wish I knew how to write on pics to point out which windows are where. But this is the general idea. Before the beginning of season, the existing pantry is filled with paper goods, basic canned goods, snacks, beverages and miscellaneous dry goods. Thanks!

Thanks. I definitely want both seating areas -- they will get used. If I put the fridge and pantry near the doorway, we've got max 4.5 ft aisle. I need 22" for fridge door clearance and then space for people seated at the island. I think that's tight. I am thinking of putting the fridge toward the end of the run closer to the bottom of the U where there is no island. I would put a 15" cabinet before the fridge to give some space to open the door, and then the pantry after. Maybe do the upper 15" can with no door and store dishes and bowls there. Thoughts? Fridge further to the right (closer to the door) or left (closer to corner with range). Thanks!!!

Any benefit to having the refrigerator at the end of the short wall vs end of long wall? The advantages to having the fridge on the short wall are that it's closer to the entry, where groceries are brought in, and so more convenient for stowing perishables, and more convenient for anyone coming from the bedrooms and living areas. The island can be moved toward the table to make the short aisle a little wider--maybe a moot point since you are omitting seating on the back of the island, and the long aisle will be wider. OTOH, it's nice to have the fridge near the dining table, if you need milk, salad dressing, etc., during the meal, but having it on the end near the table means it will block the light from the sunroom slider. You have the windows on the end to help alleviate that problem, and you might consider making the window over the sink wider, but that's more $$$, and you lose upper cabinet space. Another advantage to having the fridge on the long wall is better functional line-up--fridge-->sink-->prep-->range. DW and sink can also stay on the same wall, without DW being in the prep space. ... would I just add 6" filler panel between the range and sink to meet the 36" recommended distance? Did you mean range and DW? You could add a 6" or 12" slot for large cutting boards and/or baking sheets--I keep both in the same 12" filler cabinet that was plugged in between the end of a cabinet run and the wall. It's beside my baking counter, so a perfect location in my kitchen. If you're moving the DW, you have the option to use a 36" drawer base, great for pots and pans, convenient to the range, although usually in that case, you'd want the trash pull-out in the prep space between the sink and range, rather than on the left side of the sink. With the DW on the short wall, you can't move the sink any closer to the corner, and still have space in front of the sink to load the DW, so I'd leave the trash on the left side. That presents another problem--you'll need a 2-3" return panel on the left side of the DW, to support the counter (plus the fridge panel, if you decide to enclose it), so there will be only 12-15" between the open DW door and the perpendicular counter, to stand and load dishes into the upper corner cabinets. You could keep dishes in drawers in the island, which puts them just behind your prep space, or maybe in drawers facing the fridge: In your kitchen my preference would be the one you said you liked, with the sink, DW, and fridge on the long wall, and if you put an 18" deep pantry cabinet on the end, then there would be more space for the table. Think about the way you cook, and access the kitchen--maybe that will help you decide.

@B F, I went with drawers on everything below the countertop (except under the sink). I will store all dishes in a drawer to the right of the sink along with most glassware. This way I no longer have to hang over the open dishwasher door to reach the cabinet above it! The drawers are my gift to me, well, along with a waterfall edge counter on the peninsula (not in the CAD drawing). I saw dishes stored that way in a Houzz article and can hardly wait to implement it. @chispa you're right about the tile description. I knew I wasn't describing it properly. Thanks for the picture, I absolutely L-O-V-E that look. We have a GC who is very meticulous and his tiler is too. He did a great job on our hall bath upstairs. After seeing your picture I like the look of the white grout so I think I'll end up going with that. I love zellige tile but it's too thick for my wall. This reminds me of it. @Sabrina Alfin Interiors thanks for the suggestion. I have some interesting pieces that we collected while living in Europe. The idea of a groove or flange to help keep everything in place is great. I'm specifically thinking about a round wooden bread board with "Give us this day our daily bread" in Dutch carved along the edge (from The Beguinage in Brugge, Belgium https://www.visitbruges.be/highlights/beguinage) and our fabulous espresso cup set from Rome with orange Vespa scooters on the cups. Going through our goodies for display will be fun! I tried to thank you in the app but it is not responding so thank you for the advice, it's much appreciated!