The measurements are 14'11" (sink/banquette wall) x 15'7". I'm okay with no island but I'm imagining this big cavernous space without it. There is a 33" aisle at the top of the island, 44" on the peninsula side and 41" on the fridge side. I put the island closer to the "top" of the kitchen so the island and oven wouldn't intersect. All can be shuffled around or resized. Right now the island is 42"x42" The sink in the peninsula would solve the fridge/sink distance problem but the space for the sink and dishwasher become scarce. UGH!

Our house came with a small prep sink in the island and it has never been used. Prep sink, in our kitchen, is a complete waste of space on the prep island, because the main sink is right behind me. I need the counter space. It is coming out when we remodel this year.

Nope...it's all a function of how you work and you use the space. I'm thinking that a movable island would be nicer here as well...or if it's a matter of banging hips on corners, how about a round island? Nothing says it has to be square.

[Traditional Kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107)

[Traditional Kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Cincinnati Architect RWA Architects

It is of absolutely no importance whatsoever whether anybody else has a prep sink or not, unless they have your exact layout.

No one is doing anybody a favor by cooing, "Doo what you lurrve!" if someone ends up with a dysfunctional kitchen as a result.

Your layout, as drawn, is very difficult to work in. Print out your plan, get a pen or pencil, and then trace your steps in doing preparing multiple dishes with and without a prep sink. Add in another line for cleanup, snacking, unloading dishes and the like. It won't be pretty.

I agree with everyone who said of course not, but it's your subject line that says clearer than anything that it doesn't belong in YOUR very nice kitchen.

I also agree with Hollysprings and anyone else who said get rid of that island and that nice kitchen will work well (and feel good). That little block's main function seems to be to dictate to you where you can walk and double your steps in the process. It's NOT a cavernous space that needs to be filled, it's a compact but spacious area that allows you to move freely about.

BTW, I suspect you are a victim of the current mentality that requires every available spot to be filled with built-ins, a really serious problem these days with so many open floor plans. Some people can't stop until their runs hit a doorway or other barrier in another room entirely. You at least have walls that protect the rest of your house from that but are still teased by the potential of an area that can still hold...something! Needs filling! No. It doesn't.

If you don't want to give it up on paper, you might buy it but not bolt it down. Just set it there in 3 dimensions and live with it. At very least, be sure to lay flooring under it and keep any extra pieces you might need to give yourself the option of removing it inexpensively.

Sounds like your kitchen is larger than mine, but it looks smaller in the drawing. I have a roughly 3 x 7 foot island that works fine, and your seems smaller and uncomfortable. You can get away with less than 41 or 42 inches if you don't have a congested workflow. I have 2 sides that are 36-37 (after counter overhang) and they work efficiently and effectively. You can get too wide (yours are not -- but 4 and 5 feet...?).

That said -- the 33" is too narrow, especially in that location. The diagonal sink narrows it at one corner and you have a range that is going to have to be brought in and installed, serviced at some point and possibly replaced down the road. While you do have more than the 24 inches of an appliance depth, don't forget that many stick out to 27 or 30 inches with handles and such. You just aren't giving your installer, service tech or your poor cabinets and counter any clearance to work with.

Back to your original question -- you don't have to have a prep sink. I'm not sure that it enhances your plan that significantly. If I had one sink, I'd probably want it where the prep sink is for cooking work flow as well as the fact that clean or dirty dishes aren't having to go around the island to the back of the kitchen. So no, you don't have to have a prep sink, but you do need a better layout (IMO) and you need to make sure your drawings and measurements are accurate.

If those are pics of your kitchen as it is now at your link, then you need to ditch the island.

If it's just the 2 of you then you shouldn't really have a problem carrying a pot w/water to the sink safely. If it's too heavy for you (it would be me) then have dh carry it over. And really, how often would that be needed?

Another idea...with all these windows and doors in the kitchen, can you flip the kitchen and dining room? The banquette would be cute in the dining room, you could still have your sink on the peninsula, but have the range and fridge on the other side, where you currently have the dining room. Would this work?

xtacie,

You have a potentially very cool kitchen space to work with.
But I think you should do a new post to ask for layout help.

What would bother me is that all three major "appliances" -- stove, sink and fridge -- are on separate, non-continuous runs of counter. I would try to find a way to get at least two of the three on a continuous run of counter. Why? Because for many of us, the counter top run between two major elements is the main area where we cook and prep.

I feel that the collective wisdom GW should be able to rework your layout for even better function.

In your current plan
1. I don't think you absolutely need a prep sink and
2. the layout looks tight with the island.

1. If you should decide to remove prep sink and/or island, be sure to do as Marcolo suggested and trace your paths as you work on a layout.
Use different colors for prepping, cooking, cleaning up, and emptying DW.

Mark several trips in each color--eg, for prepping, from fridge to sink to prep area, from prep to sink, from prep to fridge, from prep to range, etc.

Maybe I have misread your layouts, but. . . .

2. Do you plan a table in that banquette window corner? Is there room? Doesn't look like it to me.

3. I think a few people here have placed cabs in front of windows which end below cab level, leaving a bit of clearance. If no table is going in the banquette area, all of that seating sure looks like wasted space to me.

4. As a matter of fact, the whole wall that the fridge is on looks like wasted space. If the peninsula were shortened to widen the passage into the dining area and hall, could cabs run along the entire fridge wall? Assuming you figure out a way to deal with the windows?

5. I would certainly explore how to put cabs across windows without changing the exterior of the house. I bet it can be done.

Hi xtacie,

Following up on Bellsmom's comments, I know that I have seen designers successfully run kitchen cabinets in front of windows. It can be done very badly too!

Here is one successful (I think) way of doing it in the Canada House and Home "Modern Country" kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: House and Home Country kitchen

What Francoise .... and basically every other single person on here has said: post a layout with dimensions. You've certainly got everyone supersaturated to chime in with layout advice now! These people around here (not me) are unbelievably smart about laying stuff out. Let em have at it and you'll be the happiest baker/cooker in a functional kitchen in no time at all.

BTW, I may have been one of the first to suggest a moving-island type thing, but that's because I was too chicken to say what eventually outed, which was: lose the island, you have plenty of space to. I think those moveable island -things can be a real pain. If you live in a tiny space and are in the zen of remaking your space all the time for specific activities, then they're great. If you're in a house, aren't 20 and want something that just works, I don't think this setup is ideal. Especially when there's no good wall to roll the things away to or underneath. So just sloshing it back and forth isn't good, you'd want to be able to stash it, and you'd have to be in stash-mode... I'm guessing these aren't good options for you.

However, again, let em have at your plans and it will be fantastic in the end! (you've got to relax a bit in your expectations though. Sometimes your fantasies can get ripped right across the room without even realizing how grounded they had been!)

Gee ... maybe I should post a title like this for my layout question (which to be fair isn't even about a kitchen so it's hardly surprising no one's bit). Maybe: "do I HAVE to have a drier???" ;) just in case you're interested... ;)

If you did something like this you could lose the prep sink, still have the extra prep space and keep a nice clean walking space in the kitchen 'triangle'.

I have no design credentials but I wouldn't want a gap between my only sink (prep + cleanup) and the stove, essentially putting a travel route between them.

Here's the 2D image with approx. measurements. The windows over the window seat are only 28" high -- thus limiting the use of space there. The entrance between the proposed stove location and corner sink is also a constant but I think everything else can be adjusted. Am overwhelmed by all the great feedback I'm getting!

Another idea -- take what cam posted but put the sink opposite the range in that U -- on the peninsula, and move the fridge over to the wall between the windows. Make the area where the sink is now a coffee/beverage and extra prep space. Put the fridge between the corner windows and make that wall where the fridge is drawn now a tall wall of pantry and dish storage. Think of a hutch with display for dishes or shelves for cookbooks flankd by the pantries.

Before I ask for more specific dimensions, I want to suggest you watch the video that comes up on the link francoise47 posted. Especially look at the segment about running cabs across a window. The windows on the corner and along the wall opposite the fridge are the big limiting factor in the kitchen as I think you want to develop it.

And now my questions:

1. How wide is the sink window? How far from the corner? Or is it right at the corner?
   2. How wide are the window seat windows?
   3. Distance between the window seat window and the window on the other side of the fridge?
   4. Width of the window on the other side of the fridge?
   5. Do you want to keep the peninsula with seating toward the dining room?

If you can't post a layout with these dimensions on it, I will do one for you. It will really help the gurus make suggestions.

Thanks for the all of the help! @Bellsmom here are the requested dimensions. Hopefully this format is what you're looking for. Proposed window seat length is 60" on each side. Feel free to correct anything! @lavender lass, we don't have a true dining room... We're opening the kitchen into a long family room/great room where our dining room table lives.... We are now entertaining the idea of moving the table into the existing kitchen space and doing the flip like you suggested. That also got us thinking about moving the door.... The entrance into the kitchen comes in from the foyer and I've added a possible relocation of the entrance. This will keep me busy for the day! I'm still playing with cam's idea of the "L". SO creative!!! I watched the video that Francois 47 posted and while it looked great there I'm still not convinced about putting counters in front of the corner windows as 10" would be visible from the front of the house. Thanks again EVERYONE for all of your help!

I only suggested flipping the dining area and kitchen, because we're considering the same thing...after a GW member suggested it! It will bring the kitchen closer to the 'action' which is usually the main seating area/TV, in the evening. It will also give the dining room a better view and access to a sun porch.

Sometimes, considering all your possibilities (no matter how seemingly unlikely) really opens up your options. Best of luck with your planning :)

It's given me a whole new perspective!!! It's amazing how one can look at a space and see so much more than another. Even just making me consider moving the door has opened up so many more possibilities. Thanks tons and good luck with yours as well!

Hi xtacie,

I agree that moving the door as you suggest in your post above does open up many possibilities. I've been sketching away -- but alas I don't have a scanner handy right now. I look forward to seeing what you come up to. Have fun!

Thank you, Xtacie! Looking forward to seeing your new drawings :)

Flipping those 2 rooms would allow much better use of the windows. They would be a feature instead of an obstacle.

xtacie
This is a first rough layout using what I think you meant as a possible new entrance to the kitchen. Some things are gone that perhaps you didn't mean to be gone, like the peninsula at the bottom.

Pros to this layout:
1. There is enough cabinet and counter space that I think the corner seating area and the wonderful windows are a real plus to the kitchen. I put in a tiny table. Not sure if there is room for one.
2. The work areas and paths are pretty compact. Keeping the corner sink which you love, I think it is a workable kitchen.
3. The windows will make this a light and lovely room.
4. I put in two smallish pantries. There is room to make the one on the right larger, but personally, I would love to remove it because it blocks the open roomy feel of the room.
5. The roomy island with prep sink will be a wonderful place for prep. The sink, fridge, and range are all fairly close. There is room under the island for two rows of 24'' deep drawers 4 1/2 feet wide.

Cons to this:
I. small landing area to the right of the range, only 18''. I would like more space there and more to the left as well, although there is about 42'' there which isn't too bad.
2. all prep will probably be done on the island. (A great place to work with the windows on the opposite wall.) The long span on the wall opposite the fridge doesn't really have a purpose.
3. The aisle on the right of the island is only 36''. If you feel that is too tight, you could make the island narrower or the cabinets against the right wall narrower.

Hope there are ideas here you can consider. Thanks for letting me play.

Bellsmom -- looks like a great plan!

I'm curious to hear what xtacie thinks of it.
One small suggestion is to remove small the pantry next to the fridge
to give more counter space on that wall. Perhaps put the dishwasher to the left of the sink.
The hutch or desk area could be transformed into a 15 inch deep pantry/bookcase
for more walking room to the banquette area.

Oh, I like Bellsmom's plan, too! If it's a dish hutch and pantry...why not make them 18" deep and then you'd have 42" for the aisle?

Changes I would make right now:

1. DW to left of sink as francoise suggested. So more cooking pots andpans can be stored by the range.
2. Trash on island by prep sink. This is where you generate most of the garbage.
3. Unless you need the storage, yes, consider making the right wall cabs into 18'' deep cabs, pantry, whatever. 18' is plenty deep for a pantry. More than enough, actually.

I really think this can be a lovely kitchen. Astonishing how moving the door opened it up. Wish I had room for that window seat corner!

I would rather have the working side of the island a bit narrower than the "hall" side if you can only have one wider side, but making the hutch and pantry 18" deep would allow better space on both sides. It would also make it easier to slide out of the window seat by not having to slide past the cabinet side to get out.

Oh my!!! I can't believe all of the work you've put into this! I haven't studied it extensively because I just got on the computer and wanted to say a quick thank you. The plan looks awesome. The only thing I see now to comment on is the sink base size. I'm in love with the kohler 33" stages sink and need a 42" base if I put the sink in the corner. I'm not a dish displayer/hutch kinda girl but the more pantries the better. (I am however a wino so a wine cabinet may work beautifully :o) I'd prefer 18" depth pantry anyway so the clearance is perfect. I'll be spending the day playing with this so I'll check back in soon. OMG!

After playing with everyone's suggestions I've been designing with lavender lass' suggestion about swapping the room setup. This is what I've come up with and I have to say so far I'm pretty excited.. I put the sink in front of the low window (this window doesn't look out over the front of the house) so I think it can work. I've got the sink and DW pulled out from that window a few inches (hoping I can still make the window usable) and that in turn allowed me to use a regular sized fridge. I'm okay with the range in the island because the seating is at the other end. I'm hoping the 42" cabinet in the corner can be used as a garbage/recycling area and I've put the microwave drawer to the left of the range. There is a 36" wall where the corner wall cabinets are and the rest of the cabinets are only 36" high creating an open credenza-like divider between areas. I'd like to make that storage useful from both sides but I think if I make it deeper the eating area may become too tight. Please let me know if I'm way off track here! I will do a post following this with a top down 3D view. Thanks to all for allowing me to see things differently!

here's a top down view with cabinets....

A fireplace in the kitchen now we're talking! Please put a rocking chair in front of it for me...

Oh, I think this has possibilities! Like Aliris said...it's wonderful having a fireplace in the kitchen :)

I like the 36" countertop between the dining room and kitchen, but I think the corner cabinet could be a bit smaller. If it were more 'squared off' it would give you a little more room, by the sink.

And I actually like island cooktops (many don't) as long as you have enough space. I think you do, if you move it down 18" from the corner. Still not too close to the stools (people can move if you decide to fry chicken LOL) and it will give you some much needed prep space, on the other side.

The dishwasher and cooktop are opposite each other, but I think with your wider aisle that won't be a problem, either.

As for the dining room...it looks like it's not quite 10' deep. Is that correct? That will be pretty tight. Any change of replacing the hutch with a banquette? Then you could have windows on each side and slide the table up to the banquette, with chairs on three sides. Maybe even squeeze in 12" shelves on the dining room side of the divider? Just an idea :)

1. Your only eating area will be the dining room table, correct?
How large is this table? On your diagram, it looks as if it is 4' x 8'. Ours is 46'' x 63'' without leaves, and with leaves it is about 4' x 8'. We had ours in a 9 1/2' x 14' designated dining room and I hated it. 3 big windows, 2 doors, and it was BLEAK. Crowded, single-purpose, and dull. I made the DR into a TV room and put the DR table in one end of a large FR.

However, our DR was enclosed and NOT open to the kitchen as yours is. That would have helped.
Just a personal comment, but mock it up with tape and boxes and stuff and see what you think.

2. I don't know recommended clearance around a table, but I think you need a minimum of 3 feet to allow for chairs, seated bodies, and people passing behind, and even that will make walking behind a diner pretty tight. And 3' passage on each side of a 4' table leaves no room for furniture in the room.

2. As someone else said, you really do not want the range on a corner of the island. You want landing areas on both sides for hot pots. If you center it, you will have a 24'' work space on one side and 18'' on the other, leaving clearance for the seating.
The recommendation, I think, for hoods over island ranges is that they be a minimum of 6'' wider on each side and, I believe, on the front and back as well. I am not sure of this, but a little searching here will determine the correct figures.
Also, consider the visual effect of the hood in the open space you have. Do you want that hanging down? Can you make it a feature?

I'm adding a layout based on your latest idea below. I included a few possible alterations::

I would suggest you play with the layout you like best, or play with both of them and do a new post. This post has enough entries that a lot of really capable layout gurus may pass it by.

I hope you are having fun with this. It SHOULD be fun!

(By the way, I thought you had one of the angled sinks with two basins set at right angles that you wanted to keep in the corner. Not so?)

FINAL COMMENT: I think you should mull over your options here and start a new post with a catchy title. A lot of the layout gurus may see the number of posts to this thread and decide to pass. Starting new with new layouts might get you new ideas.

Thanks for the chance to play. ...

Thanks again for your help! I will post this under the catchy title as suggested but I consider you guys "capable layout gurus!" (Sounds like a catchy post title to me... Look for it!) Been drawing it out and things seem to be coming together... That corner area is actually squared off. Right now I have and 18" trash next to the sink and then 12" 3 drawer at a right angle. The "dead" 24" will be accessed from the dining area side (still trying to justify getting the wine fridge and what a convenient place that would be! ). I'd prefer two usable cabinets instead of a corner cabinet. I'd like the dividing cabinets/credenza to be 30" deep and at least 42"-48"high. I'd like to put the microwave there and I think that will eliminate the need for a microwave drawer. We can trim in a regular microwave and it will be at a better height.... The microwave cabinet will use 24" of the 30" depth and the rest of the run will be 18" deep drawers and the other side in the eating area will use 12" for wine storage (thinking dowels...). I'm gonna go move the range now... Good suggestions. I only had a 9" spice pullout to the right of the range but you're right in needing the prep space on both sides. I really don't want a prep sink :o(. I have my heart set on the kohler stages sink where I think I'll be doing lots of prepping and chopping and then sliding scraps directly into the sink. I'll change the whole layout to get that sink. (Thus the insistence on the 42" corner cabinet in the old plan) It was love at first sight! The fireplace is actually in the family room facing the living room. I've now moved the kitchen into the family room space and I'm trying to decide if I'll like being able to see the corner of the fridge from the couch.... The family room now is wasted space save for the end where the dining room table is so I'm hoping this open layout will pull things together. I'm going to play now and will repost tomorrow for layout help as instructed. I feel that I've found my gurus though :o)

xtacie,

Glad you are feeling good about the direction your plan is going.
I agree that with the amazing Kohler Stages sink
you will not need a second prep sink (as you describe your cooking).

My only worry is that your new plan
misses a chance to have your dining table
in front of the fireplace.
Some version of Bellsmom's plans above,
which keeps the kitchen in the original location,
but moves the entrance,
would keep the dining room table in front of the fireplace.

But that is just my personal preference based on my experience with entertaining:
I've always wondered why I bother to make a fire in the living room
when my guests spend most of the evening at the table in the dining room
where no one can enjoy the fire.

Xtacie- This is what I would do, with the space. I think this makes the best use of the existing doors, windows, fireplace, etc. Hope it gives you some good ideas :)

I'd put the kitchen in the middle, with the range on the peninsula, facing the dining room. You could have it all one level or raised for seating...but I just wanted to show that there's 2' on the back side, for added safety from the range.

Your big sink is under the window (no prep sink! LOL) and the island (or work table if you want more flexibility) will give you more prep space. The fridge and microwave are on the other wall, with plenty of pantry space and room for a hutch.

The dining table is in front of the fireplace (Francoise makes a good point) and it's closer to the living room this way, too.

I liked your idea to have the corner banquette, just not in the kitchen work area. This way, you have room for a little breakfast area and a chair and ottoman. I put short bookcases in between, for cookbooks and other storage. Above would make a great place for a message center or other display.

Again...just another idea. Have fun with the planning! {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

What LL just did is what has been in my mind since I saw your last layout. I've been out to lunch and this kept bumping into my thoughts. Thinking of the whole space as a unit, this makes sense.

I may not be able to resist playing with it later, but I think Lavender Lass's treatment of the whole really works. Much better to move the DR down where there is more room. And the sitting area at the top is delightful.
Sandra

No. That is why I love double sinks. I can wash and rinse as I go, keeping one side empty for prep work and draining.

I don't have an island, but if I did, I would not put a prep sink in it. I prefer more prep counter space.

Thanks again for the great ideas! I'm going to post a link to current pictures of my odd layout to give you all a feel for the awkward space I've got. We spend most of our time in the living room and that's the reason we've left the space in front of the fireplace bare. We do entertain quite a bit but it's always casual and never real grown-up dinner parties :o). I like bellsmom's plan with the kitchen in the original location and also the new "kitchen in the middle of the room" plan equally. Let me know what you think after you see the current pics. We are also pulling out the wall at the other end of the room next to the fireplace and adding a bath and closet to the bedroom. (that'll be posting on a different thread!) That's why the fireplace looks awkward at the end of the room in the drawn plans.....

Here is a link that might be useful: current layout

Thanks, Bellsmom :)

I keep thinking that if you move the kitchen to the middle you can preserve the sink corner of the old kitchen and entrance door until the end of the reno. Just move the fridge over and get a hot plate and presto your temp kitchen complete with table. If only the floor wasn't an issue....

I tend to stay out of layout threads because I'm not very good at it. But I've got to say... LL, that is great! It's a very nice use of the space.

The only potential minor problem I see at all is that the fridge is a bit far from the cooktop and sink. A prep sink would fix that, though. :-)

Laura

xtacie
I posted this question in the new thread also. How far is it from the fireplace to the corner? I thought for some reason the fireplace was almost in the corner. But in your pics it looks as if there may be a few feet of wall there.

Laura- Thanks! I think you're right, but maybe we'll call it a bar/snack sink :)

It would be nice to have an area, where guests can grab drinks or a snack during parties, without getting into the main cooking area.

Here's the latest (maybe not the greatest) layout. I keep putting the sink back in the corner -- maybe out of habit but I find I like the plusses more than the minuses it creates....

I don't know how to put two pics in one post so here's the 3d top view.....

I like the seating area by the fireplace! The corner sink makes a lot of sense, but the seating at the island looks a little tight. The pantry storage, is nice though!

Just another idea...bring back the banquette seating in the corner (I think a countertop would be too short) and then back-to-back pantries, with a peninsula. This would give you the chance to use another countertop material (maybe wood?) and have plenty of room for two stools...maybe three :) {{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

@lavender lass -- how do you see this stuff? Every time I see your posts I'm busy for DAYS!!! I wish I had your eye and your sense of space. You guys have been SO helpful! I'll keep updating....