Presumably the wall behind the cooktop is high enough to protect from inadvertent hands going over it from the stairs and touching a hot pan?

The only thing I'd change is to go to a standard fridge rather than the french door, and move it left next to the pantry. This would give you a landing counter between the fridge and the ovens to drop groceries and or hot stuff from the oven.

Hi, Capesunseting. I miss those kids-all-over-me days. They used to follow me everywhere, even into the bathroom, a lonely place these days. :)

You have what looks like a nice setup for a very pleasant compact place to work. I notice that your sink counter is a bit longer on the dining room end than the stove counter. Would it work to extend the stove counter just that much longer and wrap it around the end of the stairwell as shallow lower storage and food serving area? Just those few more inches on the stove run would be very nice to have.

I'm also wondering if, if it were mine, I might like to switch the dishwasher to the dining room end and slide the stove down that way just a bit too to create a sort of dedicated prep triangle at the other, fridge-stove-sink end, and a cleanup end at the dining end of the sink. One thing I am really liking in my own for-real kitchen is a nice deep sink to drop used pots and dishes out of sight into until I can get to them.

Without seeing how the traffic flows, I am wondering what the doors lead to on the side of the double ovens? I would be concerned with that side, you have a narrow passage, so I would keep the french doors or double door. Depending on how much baking you do, I would opt for a range, rather than a cooktop, slide the frig to the pantry and make the space to the right counter. You could also move your undercounter bev cooler to that wall or have a micro drawer, then you could have drawers for pans on both sides of the range.

I think a separate beverage cooler in such a small kitchen with a 36" refrigerator is trading storage space for something that is not really necessary.

My concerns, some of which have been mentioned already, at least to some extent:

Will you have enough wall, also, to keep spatters from going over onto the steps? The thought that you'll be able to overlook the stairs doesn't seem safe to me.

Do you need the wall sections at each end of the stove run? They use space that could be cabinet space and block access to the counter, especially from the fridge/pantry end...But, again, it depends on the height of that wall. But if it's short enough so it doesn't block the counter, why have it?

Love Rosie's suggestion to lengthen the stove run counter and wrap around the front of the stair area.

I would want to swap dw and trash.

Also wonder about the oven opening into the doorway, but don't know where that goes, so if it's a real concern. Am thinking that with a French door fridge next to the oven, you could dent the right door on the oven handle. A fridge that hinges only on the left would suit better in that configuration.

Like Palimpset, I would favor more storage to the beverage cooler.

Best wishes!

First of all, thanks to all of you that responded. Im going to try and answer all of your questions and hopefully the design will make more sense.

 rob_p
"Presumably the wall behind the cooktop is high enough to protect from inadvertent hands going over it from the stairs and touching a hot pan?"
---Yes, thatÂs why we placed it in the middle. The stairs going down are steep and by the time you get to the cooktop area, not even a 6 adult can reach over. The ½ wall is 3/4s of the way around the basement stairs and itÂs 42" tall.
"The only thing I'd change is to go to a standard fridge rather than the french door, and move it left next to the pantry. This would give you a landing counter between the fridge and the ovens to drop groceries and or hot stuff from the oven."
---I had it that way in the original plan, but I had concerns about entry into the kitchen. There are two ways to get into the kitchen: (1) through a narrow passage immediately next to the stairs and through a doorway size opening into the DR. If we move the refrigerator from the middle of that wall to the left corner, it will block traffic coming up the stairs into the kitchen as well as traffic coming into the kitchen from the front door and the hallway (behind the pantry) that leads to the bedrooms.
---I figured that if we have it in the middle of the wall and it was FD, the refrig would not eat up a lot of floor space when open and wouldnÂt eer block the entry. I was hoping that it wouldnÂt be that much of a pain to have the "sink wall" behind the oven be my landing pad for hot stuff. Is that a bad idea???
 rosie
Hi, Capesunseting. I miss those kids-all-over-me days. They used to follow me everywhere, even into the bathroom, a lonely place these days. :)
---Hi Rosie. I hear you! My kids are 5, 3, and15 months. The MAIN reason I wanted to do this renov is b/c I feel trapped in the kitchen and disconnected from the kids when IÂm trying to cook or clean up (which, as a stay at home mom, seems like more than ½ my day!)
"You have what looks like a nice setup for a very pleasant compact place to work. I notice that your sink counter is a bit longer on the dining room end than the stove counter. Would it work to extend the stove counter just that much longer and wrap it around the end of the stairwell as shallow lower storage and food serving area? Just those few more inches on the stove run would be very nice to have."
---I totally agree with you and that was my initial design, but after a lot of struggling, my architect helped me realize that it would mean the end to my "dining room" as a real room and would "force" an addition to correct the problem. IÂm a realtor and weÂre in a sought after area 8 miles outside DC. Even in really small houses (ours is a ranch with 1,440 sf on each of two levels), for some reason buyers here always want to have real DRÂs. IÂve seen properties suffer when people change their DR to an extension of their kitchen. So, my compromise is that IÂm going to buy a piece of furniture (may have one made by the kitchen cabinet maker and with same/similar countertop, at counter height) that is basically removable so if my DH gets transferred or we want to move up to a bigger house, I can stage the house with or without it, depending on feedback.
"I'm also wondering if it were mine, I might like to switch the dishwasher to the dining room end and slide the stove down that way just a bit too to create a sort of dedicated prep triangle at the other, fridge-stove-sink end, and a cleanup end at the dining end of the sink. One thing I am really liking in my own for-real kitchen is a nice deep sink to drop used pots and dishes out of sight into until I can get to them."
---IÂm not sure I understand what youÂre talking about when you say, "slide the stove down that way just a bit too to create a sort of dedicated prep triangle at the other, fridge-stove-sink end, and a cleanup end at the dining end of the sink." IÂm certainly open to changing the position of the DW, but my thought was people walk into the kitchen, scrape their plates into the trash and hand it to Mommy to put in the DW. Did you mean slide the cooktop over to the right toward the refrig?

 jberg
"Without seeing how the traffic flows, I am wondering what the doors lead to on the side of the double ovens? I would be concerned with that side, you have a narrow passage, so I would keep the french doors or double door. Depending on how much baking you do, I would opt for a range, rather than a cooktop, slide the frig to the pantry and make the space to the right counter. You could also move your undercounter bev cooler to that wall or have a micro drawer, then you could have drawers for pans on both sides of the range."

---the doors, while not shown on the drawings, will open OUT to a large deck that can be accessed via the kitchen and the DR, so I can have circular flow. The deck may be a phase two item b/c of $ and we didnÂt want to prompt lots of questions when we submitted the plans for bidding w/o showing a deck. I hope that makes sense.

---I am in love with the Advanitum *speed cook* technology (IÂve got 3 kids under 5!), so thatÂs why I have it as a double oven. You are not supposed to put it under a countertop, hence the double oven set up.

---For reasons stated above, if I move the frig out of the middle spot, it severely interferes with the entryways.

---I was including a 2 drawer refrig on the cooktop peninsula b/c it will make the milks, juices, fruit snacks, condiments, deli meat for sandwiches and coffee creamer readily accessible w/o crossing over into the cooks work area.

 palimpsest
"I think a separate beverage cooler in such a small kitchen with a 36" refrigerator is trading storage space for something that is not really necessary."

---thank you for your honesty. IÂve been wondering about that too, as it could be a big savings on the appliance costs. My main reason is that I was hoping that it would make the milks, juices, fruit snacks, condiments, deli meat for sandwiches and coffee creamer readily accessible w/o crossing over into the cooks work area. And also compensate for the fact that I have to do a counter-depth refrig (canÂt recess it).

---I guess I could give it up, but I wonder, if for flow and keeping kids out of the cooking area if I should just sacrifice the storage???
 rhome410
"Will you have enough wall, also, to keep spatters from going over onto the steps? The thought that you'll be able to overlook the stairs doesn't seem safe to me."
---Yes, I think so, the wall will be 42" tall.
"Do you need the wall sections at each end of the stove run? They use space that could be cabinet space and block access to the counter, especially from the fridge/pantry end...But, again, it depends on the height of that wall. But if it's short enough so it doesn't block the counter, why have it?"
---great catch! Thank you. I will discuss getting rid of that with the architect.
"Love Rosie's suggestion to lengthen the stove run counter and wrap around the front of the stair area."
---As mentioned above, I canÂt do that b/c it will eat into the very NARROW dining room that I have.
"I would want to swap dw and trash."
---Why? Not sure I understand. DoesnÂt it make sense to scrape into trash first, rinse in sink and put in DW?
"Also wonder about the oven opening into the doorway, but don't know where that goes, so if it's a real concern. Am thinking that with a French door fridge next to the oven, you could dent the right door on the oven handle. A fridge that hinges only on the left would suit better in that configuration. "
---Totally agreed. But, the drawings are not correct in that itÂs supposed to swing OUT onto the future deck. ItÂs complicated. ;-)
"Like Palimpset, I would favor more storage to the beverage cooler."
---Would you still feel that way if youÂre trying to keep the little ones from crossing over to the other end to get something out of the refrig? If I didnÂt have little kids, I think maybe I would agree, but IÂm still struggling with that decision. Does that change your mind?
IÂm sorry for the long winded responses, but I wanted to make sure I addressed everyoneÂs comments. This forum is so great, but I think b/c my drawings didnÂt show an overview of the adjacent rooms/spaces, it was hard for people to see why I might have made some of the decisions I had. With my answers, IÂm wondering if now you would agree with me or if IÂm still on the wrong track re: appliance placement and need for refrig drawers.
Buel, if youÂre out there, IÂd really love to hear your $0.02 too! Thanks so much, everyone!!!

Regarding your responses to my post: :-)

Why move the dishwasher: It doesn't have to do with the path of a dirty dish as you outlined...For one thing, most dishes gather in the sink first, so they're already past the trash in your plan. Once there, it doesn't matter which direction they go to scrape into the trash then back to the dishwasher. But mostly, the open dishwasher will be better to have toward the dining side of the kitchen and out of the way of the work area. Where it is now, if open, it interferes with the fridge to sink to stove path of food, and even will just be in the way if the cook wants to get to the fridge.

I'm still concerned that the fridge door will hit the oven handle (damaging one or both appliances), which I don't think you addressed. I think in your response to me you were talking about the set of doors that go to the right out of the kitchen by the oven? Also, my concern with the oven in relation to those exit/entrance doors was not about the doors colliding, but about a hot oven door open across an exit/entrance path.

Ahhh, 5, 3 and 15 months. How cute. Does the puppy follow you around too?

I agree with protecting your dining room and with those who feel they're treasures to be developed to their full potential.

What I meant about the stove was to move it a bit toward the dining room, like the DW, leaving as much counter space as can reasonably be scrounged on both sides at the fridge end. Those two stretches of counter would form the arms of your work "triangle" at that end of your kitchen. The dining room sides of the stove and sink would be for serving/staging and cleanup respectively.

Dear rhome410,
"Why move the dishwasher: It doesn't have to do with the path of a dirty dish as you outlined...For one thing, most dishes gather in the sink first, so they're already past the trash in your plan. Once there, it doesn't matter which direction they go to scrape into the trash then back to the dishwasher. But mostly, the open dishwasher will be better to have toward the dining side of the kitchen and out of the way of the work area. Where it is now, if open, it interferes with the fridge to sink to stove path of food, and even will just be in the way if the cook wants to get to the fridge."

---Thank you! Now I get it! I will move it to the other
side. Thanks for the awesome feedback. By the time I would have realized that it would be too late.
"I'm still concerned that the fridge door will hit the oven handle (damaging one or both appliances), which I don't think you addressed. I think in your response to me you were talking about the set of doors that go to the right out of the kitchen by the oven? Also, my concern with the oven in relation to those exit/entrance doors was not about the doors colliding, but about a hot oven door open across an exit/entrance path."

---yes, I thought you were talking about the doors to the deck. Im not sure what to do about this dilemma. I know one way to help would be I could train myself to lock the French doors when I will be taking stuff out of the oven.

--Re: the refrig door hitting the oven door, is it possible that if I get the Samsung CD refrig that the door wouldnt open that far anyway? I guess I could get a left hinged counter-depth refrig (I saw a few 600 series subzeros that were discontinued and being sold by appliance dealers on craigslist). If I did that, maybe getting a panel-covered refrig would help with dings??? Your thoughts?

Hi rosie,
"Ahhh, 5, 3 and 15 months. How cute. Does the puppy follow you around too?"

---Ha ha ha. If I had a puppy I think theyd have to come and take me away. :-)

"I agree with protecting your dining room and with those who feel they're treasures to be developed to their full potential."

---its a shame, but I gotta do what the market wants b/c I know this is not our forever house.

"What I meant about the stove was to move it a bit toward the dining room, like the DW, leaving as much counter space as can reasonably be scrounged on both sides at the fridge end. Those two stretches of counter would form the arms of your work "triangle" at that end of your kitchen. The dining room sides of the stove and sink would be for serving/staging and cleanup respectively."

---would you move the cooktop even if it made that area look unbalanced? How many inches over would you move the cooktop toward the left side? The good thing about the Miele induction is that it has a shallow clearance (4" I think), so theoretically it could be done, but then Im fooling with the venting above too, which would really tweak the symmetry I dont know about that one, now that I think about it. Ah!!!! I hate this part of trying to figure out the puzzle

Getting a single-door, CD fridge that hinges only on the left would solve the whole problem about possible door interference between oven and fridge. It is primarily the style of the oven handle and how far it protrudes, and at what angle, that will decide how far you might be able to open a French door fridge's right hand door before they collide.

The fact that your exterior French Doors open out will slow down anyone coming through the doors who might run into the open oven. It's probably just one of those compromises you have to have and something your family will get used to.