Can't help you with your question but what you're calling a skirt is usually referred to as an 'apron'.

Thanks, ci_lantro! Ok readers, please replace skirt with apron in my previous post :)

I like the contractor's concern about support for the 6ft (!) span. I dont know the bending strength of granite and I frankly feel that no one can guarantee that a large span of granite will not crack (depends if there are fissures in the granite already).

I am inclined to go with the large apron. Or use steel angles in addition to the wood (then you can reduce the height to 2", hide the steel behind the wood apron). Cant take chances with a heavy piece of stone.

or Cut 3" off the chair legs :) (simplest solution)

I was going to say something similar to pharaoh - look for different height chairs that will work with your table (or get them custom made if you have to)

I did this... and my granite just went in today!! No pics yet, but we did ours with a smallish cabinet under the "table" section (used as a pedestal). I didn't want posts/legs at the ends because I wanted to be able to pull up chairs (counterstools, really) all around the perimeter. I had discussed with my contractor that I wanted a very clean look... no corbels, posts, etc. Wanted plenty of knee room... but wanted (obviously!) enough support for the granite. The "table" section is about 5 feet by 4.5 feet. Overall the island is about 5 feet by 10.5 feet. He had me do the pedestal (made it a cabinet for light use storage), then we had my cabinetmaker stain a sheet of cherry plywood to match my cabinets and cut it the same shape as the overhang, but about six inches less all around. He routed slots in the plywood and inserted steel slats. The plywood is attached to the pedestal cabinet and the granite set on top. This way the steel is basically sandwiched between the plywood and the granite and you can't see it. If you look under, all you see is the pretty cherry plywood, not the "magic" steel slats. It looks AWESOME (IMHO!!!) I'm super happy.

pharoah, weissman, Thanks for the suggestions. I actually thought about shorter chairs and mocked it up, but if I do that, the seat is too far from the table top and the table top is about level with my armpits. Makes me feel like a 5 year old without a booster chair!

I'll have to put some thought into how I can do steel supports in addition to the wood.

faleash, That sounds like a great solution! I would have done something like cabs underneath, but the island is only 36" wide, so even if I used 12" cabs that's only 12" of overhang on each side and that's too short.

Hmm...maybe I should try and find a table maker. I know I've seen big tables with granite tops without huge aprons. There's gotta be a solution!

We are having a prep island with a long table attched, similar to what you are doing except our eating section drops down to table height.

Going down the center of the "table" will be a narrow rectangular "box" (made out of 2x4s, I think) that will be wrapped in beadboard and trimmed out. We will have several very heavy metal L bracket supports coming out of the box to give further support towards the long edges of the table. (Brackets from shortrunpro.com, "freedom style") At the end of the table will be a 6" deep cabinet with no doors and decorative legs in front of it.

Wow, how timely! I'd like something very similar to your island/table.

My island/table will be @ 36" wide by @ 8' long. What I'd like is a 20" X 20" bank of drawers at one corner, an apron surrounding the whole thing (not around the bank of drawers, LOL), three legs at the other three corners and I think it will need 2 more legs about right after the cabs end. I'd like about 72" of unobstructed leg room - like a table.

My carpenter is really giving me a hard time on this. He told me no one does it like this and that it's a mistake. Since I can't seem to get a drawing out of him, I don't know what he plans for an apron - another question for him that I am sure he will not be happy with. Thanks so much for the reminder about the size of the apron, I wouldn't have thought of it.

Here are some more 'inspiration pics', and a pic of what mine currently looks like. Again, sorry if these are your kitchens, if they are, let me know how you did it :)

dtchgrl, thanks for posting your plans! That's pretty creative! I'll definitely think about something along those lines.

americancolleen, this first pic looks similar to what it sounds like you're planning (though you'd have a smaller cabinet section.)

Couple more inspiration pics:

Here's what my island/table currently looks like. That little piece of black on the top left corner of it is my soapstone sample:

Oh man thanks for the pictures!!

I love your set up and plan on something very similar except for the cabinet won't be as deep because I need an overhang for sometimes seating behind it.

Funny, my cabs will be creamy white with the ORB hardware too - love your latches!

PS - did you put your floor in before or after cab installation? That's a big point of contention with my cab guy and me.

No problem - I searched high and low for inspiration pics for this so my contractor wouldn't think I was bonkers.

We put the floor in before the cabinets. I figure the flooring will probably outlive the kitchen so if and when I decide to change the cabinets or layout or whatever down the road, it won't matter because the flooring is laid down everywhere.

This is such an easy fix. Get a metal shop to make you a frame out of 2" x 2" carbon steel angle. Add an additional couple of pieces going across...like your builder has done in wood now (only 2 cross members would be plenty). The table's 2" apron will hide all of it and you will have piece of mind that you could park a truck on that table!

ccoombs1, I was thinking along those same lines too. I guess I was really just hoping someone would chime in and say, "donka, 2.5" of wood apron is sufficient," since that would be the easy fix.

So carbon steel eh? Thanks! Guess I'll go scope out some metal shops :)

Argh! Well, it's now how many weeks later, and I'm still sitting in the same predicament. I talked to a metal place and they can do a frame with angle iron no problem, but I've been waiting and waiting on the stone people to get back to me. They are soooo slow in responding, but they're the only place I've been able to find soapstone even relatively close to my house, at a reasonable price (couple hours away.)

Anyways, they tell me even with a metal frame I need a couple supports dead center down the middle. Even with an angle iron frame? They make bed frames and cars out of this stuff for crying out loud. I don't want a couple legs hanging down in the middle of my table...grrr.

I am so frustrated right now. This is the last thing holding up finishing my reno and it's taking FOREVER. I think this is that 'breaking point' we've discussed before. I'm just about ready to throw up my arms, rip out the current island and throw a table in. It will really mess up my zones though :(

Oh, I should clarify, by supports I mean basically table legs, underneath the cross supports, so I'd have two legs at the end, and 2 legs underneath in the middle...who's ever seen a table like that? Bah.

I feel your pain!!

My cabinet guy still hasnt provided me with a plan. I just don't see how what we want is so crazy.

I guess it's the liability factor since we live in a society that's so sue crazy.

One would think carbon steel cross supports would do it... bet they make freeking high rise buildings the same way.

Keep me posted on this, I've been waiting for your update!

For me, floors go in next week, cabs (minus the island table, ha ha) in the week of July 20. I just hope I make it until then :-(

Yay! Thanks for chiming in americancolleen, I've been keeping an eye out for updates from you too since you said you were aiming for the same thing.

I don't think it's that crazy either, and come on, angle iron has GOT to be sufficient! I'm at the point where I'm ready to say, "Hey, I'll build it, sign a waiver, and if the stone breaks, it's not your problem." Which very well may be my next move.

It's probably cheaper than hiring an engineer, which practically seems like what I need to do to convince these people it's not nuts. I've seen big tables with granite tops, wish I had have looked underneath...

Congrats on the flooring and cabinet install! Floors are so gratifying, and the cabinet installation is like, "Wow!! It looks like a kitchen!" I was so excited to see stuff start going back IN to the kitchen. w00hoo for you!

How about a metal plate covering the whole thing, like quarter inch thick or so?... that was one of the options given us for our island/table... I didn't want legs in the way of knee room.

"and 2 legs underneath in the middle...who's ever seen a table like that? Bah."

well, big dining room table have a pedestal or something under the middle for support - maybe something like that? could be decorative.

tho, it just does sound like those metal braces should be enough! my thought was hiring an engineer also.

one thing you could do - is take your plans for it to the city planning dept and ask there - they probably have an engineer around. especially if they aren't too busy, you'd be surprised what they'll help you with. just go in and pretend like you think that's part of their job anyway... (I used to work with our planning dept at times - nice guys/gals). It'll give 'em something to shake their heads and talk about once you leave...a change of pace for 'em. They like that sometimes - they get bored with regular work. maybe some cities' workers aren't as nice tho.

how about a wider rod/piece of that metal going across the middle (from one side to the other) - like a foot wide piece or something? then a smaller width piece up closer to the cab and one out toward the end of it?

I'd have two legs at the end, and 2 legs underneath in the middle...who's ever seen a table like that? Bah.

There are many tables with supports just like you describe. I know it isn't the look that you were going for, but perhaps you could find a table that employs a support system that would work for you and embrace its style. Here are a few examples . . .

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

you do not need a leg in the middle. I think those center legs look akward and bad. Angle iron is incredibly strong!! Just get the frame made and have them put a couple angles across the center and you will have no problems at all. If you use 2" x 2" x 1/4" angle you could park a truck on it.

Thanks ccoobms1, I think they look incredibly weird too, and frankly, just ugly.

holligator, the top one you posted at least looks like a table, but not really what I was going for.

I think I'll just design it, get the metal place to build the angle iron support, and make my contractor build the apron and legs how I want them (and get him to fix that thing he did with the legs where the apron is over top of the legs, that also looks like crap, IMO.) Then I'm going to call the soapstone people and tell them to come template, and I really doubt they'll have a problem with it once they see it. Maybe I'll jump up and down on it to show them it's not going to flex. I don't think they're really getting what I'm talking about, or understanding how strong the angle iron is.

It sounds like you've got great advice so far. We built a similar type of island, but went with a wood top. I do remember that when I ordered the components for the table part (from tablelegs.com) they asked if the top was going to be stone. She said that if it was stone they recommended extra brackets as well as mortise and tendon joints. She didn't say anything about getting a wider apron. You might want to call them and get their opinion. I think they deal with this stuff all the time. If you haven't already had the components made, look at theirs while you're at it. I got quotes from cab makers in my area that were 5 times as high as what I ended up getting from this place (I'm not spamming, just a really happy customer).

Thanks budge1!! I just got off the phone with tabletops.com. Holy cow do they have good customer service! I emailed my problem, and in no time received a response from the owner, and he says he's received this exact same question several times and is going to work on putting something up on his website or offering something to deal with the issue. Says he's gonna get his engineers on it :) Nice.

Anyhow, he says he's done something similar in his own house, and notched out the table legs (he used 4 legs, 2 butting up against the cabinets and the 2 end ones) and ran a small i-beam down the length on each side which rests in the notches. Then he said he used epoxy to level out the top edge that the soapstone rests on (since the i-beam's are never totally straight) and voila! Apparently it's been holding up for years. I might see about some cross beams still, and doing it 'ladder style' but it's nice to know someone else's experiences (and the guy's a table maker, so that gives me more warm and fuzzies.)

Thank you so much for the tip!

Ha went looking for this thread to see how you made out donka!! Now I know :-)

I still don't know what mine looks like, cabinet maker is installing next week so I'll get a look at it then.

Wish I knew about that guy (tablelegs) sooner... did he say how big his island is?

Hi americancolleen,

Whoops, I meant to say tablelegs.com - anyhow, I think he said his island was 8 or 9 feet, and the 'table' part was approximately 7. He added drawers on the underside though, so he said the design was a little more complicated but fundamentally the principle was the same (using an i-beam).

Also, he said a 4" table apron is standard on any table. Says you should be able to get your legs under there no problem, and that my 5.5" apron basically makes a table unusable because that 1.5" makes a big difference.

Hope that helps! I hope you come back and post when you see what yours looks like...or email me from my profile page :) The saga will be ongoing until I get the info from the metal shop regarding i-beam sizes or the other metal he mentioned I could use which was a square-hollow length of steel.

Thanks Donka!

Like I said, I have no idea what the cabinet maker came up with, I've asked him several times and he is evasive. I will find out for sure next week when he does the install.

Oh ya, I will definitely post back here and with pics too because I know when I was going nuts looking for what it sounds like the tablelegs.com guy has, I couldnt find a thing. Maybe this thread will aid someone in the future.

Hi Donka:

Finally almost done!!!

The contractor built the table/island the same day that the marble was delivered so I couldn't get pictures of the table without the top. I took some today though, here they are.

FYI, the island is 7 feet long. Two feet are supported by a 24" X 24" cabinet and the remaining 5 feet are supported by the four legs and the multitude of wood support you see. The apron is 4 inches long. It's comfortable and for the most part, I'm pretty happy. Not exactly what I wanted but it was the best I could do with such a heavy top.

Let me know how you're making out!

bump for donka

Hey!!

Thanks for posting americancolleen. That looks great! That's a lot of wood support underneath eh? I think that's the same sort of thing my contractor is thinking. Unfortunately he's in the middle of moving right now and won't get back to me for a bit, but he says he's got the plan worked out in his head to get me what I want.

How high are the seats of the chairs on your stools? You said it's comfortable, can you cross your legs when you're sitting at the table?

By the way, your kitchen is gorgeous!!! I love that marble, the soapstone, the cabs, the latches, the lighting, um, everything :) I think you got some jbrodie inspiration goin' on there ;) Me too, except I didn't have the budget for nice inset cabs like yours. I'm drooling :) I so can't wait to see it all finished. Great job! I should stop swooning to save some ranting for your finished kitchen post ;)

The chairs are regular counter height 25" I think?? My daughter's friends are sitting on them now so I can't measure. I can't cross my legs, no. I hadnt even tried to cross them until I saw your post :-) so of course I went and tried... alas no... however, I find that with these chairs my feet automatically 'sit' on the bar near the bottom of the chair - I've spent a good deal of time sitting at the island/table since I'm so thrilled to finally have a kitchen again!

Anyway, he said he couldn't make the apron shorter due to weight support issues - who knows - by that time I was really sick of the whole thing.

LOL yes, I was inspired by jbrodie, mamadadapaige, erikanh and a ton of others here! My kitchen is small though compared to their kitchens, but I am happy to just get rid of those old, dark cabinets, crappy countertop, lousy floor and sickening wallpaper :-)

Good luck with your 'table' - your man sounds like he is going to take care of you.