Check your design agreement with your design build firm. Chances are they "own" that design, and you are not allowed to show it to other contractors or vendors.

Get yourself a copy of some floor plan software. IKEA.com has a free one. I have Chief Architect Home Designer Suite. There are others. Draw a floor plan that you own, that you can show to anybody you like.

When you talk to contractors, the more details you can provide, the more accurately they can estimate and the better you can tell if they are the right contractor for the job.

In addition to your new kitchen floor plan, you should also draw up an "as built" plan showing what your kitchen currently looks like, and mark any major changes (i.e. highlight a wall you are knocking out a different color).

Finally, you should write a draft "scope of work." This is the outline of how you intend to go from "as built" to your new plan.

Write down everything you want your contractor to do, then include a section marked "DIY" with anything you don't want your contractor to do, if you plan to paint or assemble those IKEA cabinets yourself.

For example, my scope of work starts with items like:

1. Remove old cabinets, appliances except dishwasher, soffits, and closet framing for pantry.

2. Install new cabinets, range, OTR microwave.

3. Plumbing: New sink/faucet at existing connections. Move water connection for the fridge.

4. Replace window over the sink, because it leaks.

Etc.

This is a general outline to start discussions with your contractor. When you get closer to signing a contract, everything has to be spelled out. For example, the model of the new appliances, the type of new windows, etc. Right now, the whole electrical/lighting section of my document says "not sure yet", but that's OK because contractors will have suggestions you can use as well.

zazutoo,
I have been following your thread. You are the family in Madison with a daughter. Adding on footage and moving stuff around is extremely expensive even if a "cheaper" contractor does it. I have done a lot of remodels. We are always "surprised" how low our intital estimate was compared to what we actually come in at the end.
I have known many people that started a job with the "low" bid contractors and have run out of money and were unable to finish the job. (because the initial bid was too low and not realistic....) You don't want to be in this position. Unfinished house is completely worthless. You can't even sell it!
When you talk to contractors, you need to find a firm that has done similar scope of work that you are considering. For example, if you are doing an add on, you need to find someone that has done many add ons, not just existing kitchen remodels without adding on. The scope of work is extremely different and the complexity is significantly more with add ons versus replacing cabinets without moving electric and plumbing. If you are adding on with matching exterior work with medium to high quality finishes (ie wood windows, hardwood floors etc), in my area, the starting cost is $150 to 250/sq ft and up for the total finished sq footage. (if you are doing 1000 sq ft, it would cost about 150k to 250k, yup!) The smaller the add on, the higher the cost per sq/ft... Large add ons can be actually cheaper than doing small add ons that have to have a lot of exterior fixes...
We have hired people that bit off more than they can chew and have ended up with major screw ups over the years.... This is also quite expensive in the long run, ie the cheapest contractor will actually cost you more in the end.....
Always, it is better to have an accurate estimate before starting. If the firm that you talked to is a reputable firm, then their estimate is probably fairly accurate for the level of finish you are looking at. Unless you are willing to reduce the quality of items, ie vinyl versus tile flooring, vinyl windows versus wood windows etc, you are not going to reduce the cost estimate by too much.... Most of your expenses is in the material cost and the labor of the finish work, ie tile versus vinyl (hardwood versus carpet) can be 10x as expensive because of the labor to install the tile/hardwood.
You should have a heart to heart talk with the initial contractor and ask what the break down is and see what they can do for you without adding on or by changing materials to much less expensive materials. (ie 10k appliance allowance versus 30k appliance allowance etc) Then you will know for sure what is possible.

Good luck.

Janet -- thanks for all that practical advice. I have to get started on all of that stuff.

Kai -- First, we are going to really talk to our design/build team and find out how the estimates break down. One of the problems with the estimates is that they did not include finishes that we talked about -- they estimated for linoleum and low end countertop and we had talked about tile on the kitchen floor and a mid range counter top. They also estimated for a project that did not include the 'garden room' which is something that we never discussed. I want to know from them if they included the windows that we talked about and ALL of the built ins that we wanted.

Getting down to figures -- Our renovation without the 'garden room' would cost not less than $85,000. With the garden room and back decking, it would be not less than $125,000. And the Addition would be not less than $170,000.

This does not include anything for appliances (which I knew and is fine) and as I said above it doesn't include finishes we talked about. I know that prices are different for different parts of the country, and we cannot do much ourselves, but any comments about these prices would be helpful.

I mean, maybe they are fair and we are just way over our heads in terms of budgeting. I feel (although what do my feelings know??) that a 8'x18' addition for $85,000 is high. And these estimates are 'not less than' and so I imagine that they will go up as we add what we really want.

How to re think this project is a challenge. I don't want to go with the cheapest contractor, but . . . .

Suzanne

Here is a link that might be useful: layout pictures

I agree with Janet - your design/build firm probably owns the design. You could possibly buy it from them. You could also do your own and it won't cost much (except time). When shopping around for contractors make sure you're comparing apples to apples. You may change some items while "shopping" but don't change the baseline you give potential contractors. Keep these changes separate for the final bid.

Also have the contractors note a budget for hardware, faucets, sinks, flooring, cabinets, etc or be very specific in specifying items. If it's rolled into the bid one might bid vinyl windows and another custom wood windows. For example you can write in Pella window part number... or ask for a 6 over 6 wood window budget. You want to see thier labor costs. Once all the bids are in and you decide on a firm, give them the final version to bid. You can work with them at that time on reducing costs. A good firm can give you ideas to help you save.

Finally, make sure you have reviewed your zoning requirements so that you CAN put an addition on where you want it. Do you still meet setback, floor area ratios, open space requirements, etc. Why go through all this work if you cannot build what you want to build and have to come up with a totally different design. Also, in our town any house over 50 years old must go in front of historical commission for approval. They've nix'd size of additions, type of windows, rooflines, etc. Find out if this is a requirement here. I've went thru zoning purgatory and it's not fun. I've known projects held up for over a year in historical review (most take 3 months after submittal to just get approval!)

As I mentioned before my quotes were doubled in price from one end to the other. I went with the low end contractor who didn't pass my 1st screening. My architect told me to give him another chance (he uses this guy on his own house) and I had a fantastic experience. I love my contractor. It was more work on my part because I had to buy everything but it save me thousands $$$$ good luck

A 3 season "porch" isn't built like living space. It can't really be "incorporated" into living space without almost 100% being rebuilt, especially in a cold winter climate. It'd probably be cheaper to knock it down and rebuild it as a completely new addition than it would be to retrofit as is. Yes, 85K can be a fair price for that, depending on the scope of work. If it includes new footings/foundation, framing, windows & doors, electrical, insulation, HVAC, roofing and tie in to the house structure, then that's not out of the ballpark at all. And if it doesn't include all of those things, it should if you're really going to make it code compliant energy efficient living space.

I agree with kaismom to a point -- adding on to your house can cost as much as building a new one, and is usually more expensive than you think.

However, I don't agree that if your firm is reputable, you should just take the first quote as market price. Maybe you have been really lucky and "hit the jackpot" on the first contractor you met, and they're a perfect fit for your family. But, it definitely pays to talk to more than one person, because you sometimes don't know that a different style or process would work better for you until you meet more contractors. (Or, if the problem is in the design phase, meeting a designer that you "click" with better.)

Also, I forgot that you were expanding your house! You should not attempt to design something like that entirely on your own. The scope of work is so much bigger, and it's too easy to sketch out something that for structural, code, or cost reasons is going to be unbuildable. Sketch out your ideas, but don't get too attached to them without regular feedback from the pros.

zazutoo,

It seems like you already know that you intend to overimprove for your neighborhood -- that's expensive. Going with a design-build firm instead of doing more legwork and coordinating yourselves by getting multiple bids from a GC -- that's expensive. You may want to rethink one or both of these choices.

From the middle of our renovation, I warn you that nobody will give you what you really have in mind unless you do your homework, so if you care a lot about the design vision, DB may not be the right choice.

We chose to dump the DB and waited until the construction market had more slack, which is now. We are still overspending, but at least the money is going where we can see it -- in our house.

And I second the advice from bostonpam. You need to get thoroughly familiar with local zoning and state building codes and then run your preliminary plans by the local inspector. This is another area where you should not expect the "experts" to know or do the proper legwork. It is your money and your house.

So I admit that going the design/build route does sound like a lot less leg work on my part. My concern about doing more myself was that I had no idea of where to begin. Is it with a design, the zoning law, or what? I feel a bit caught in a cycle of not being able to make a budget until I know the design, but unable to design with the code, and not able to design at all. I have not really found any pictures of renovations on a house like mine -- okay, some in a cottage magazine.

As for over-improving the neighborhood -- that we are not doing. At least half the houses in our immediate neighborhood have been improved at some time, in some way. Additions or expanded upper floors are very common. This is an established neighborhood with a devoted following. People "improve" over the years to accommodate life style and family needs. Generally, neighbors hate moving out!

And I have to check our design contract, but it is separate from the build contract (which we have not negotiated yet) and I think that we own the design once it is finished. Is that uncommon?

Suzanne

I think you first need to go down to city hall and inspectional services - can you even add on to the house? You should know your lots size and house size including garage. In our town they have it on the computer including your zone and can make a quick calculation to see if you can add on to the house. If you cannot add on then you may want to rethink your plan or go for a special permit. A special permit in our town will take at least 6 additional months for more reviews plus $10,000 - $20,000 of more documentations, plans, etc.

Once you know you can add on, then you need to decide what you want to do. Ask you town what type of drawings are required for additions. Our town requires structural drawings (by architect and sign off by structural engineer or by structural engineer). I also needed a proposed, foundation and finished addition survey/plot plan. You can work with an architect or design company to come up with a plan. You've done some work with the one company and you like the plan so see if you can buy it from them. Shop it around to you find your contractor and then tweaked the design to you get what you want in your budget.

We did a major renovation - turning our 1825 two family house back into a single family. I interviewed 14 architects, 12+ contractors... It took a lot of time. If you want to see my process and some of our pitfalls I have a blog

Here is a link that might be useful: bostonpam's renvoations

Fascinating!
One question:Where in the DB contract, or for that matter, that of any designer, is included their participation in paying the mortgage when the construction is completed?

This is your house, why are you so willing to subordinate?

Visit the planning dept. and you can find the buildable limits of your lot including front, side, rear yard set-backs, required open areas. From the building dept. you can find out what plans and permits will be required for each of and or any combination of your proposed projects.
Since your house is multi-level, you'll need an engineered set of plans if you intend to remove walls.

When ever I'am asked to bid a project, the prospective client and I set across their table in their house. in front of them is a tablet labeled "shopping list" and if any question I ask is not specifically answered, it goes on "Their" shopping list.
At the conclusion of this meeting I explain that within applicable limits, the estimates for the elec. and plumbing will not be included until the information requested is provided.
Where "allowances for" are requested/suggested, they are excluded and become the responsibility of the client,purchase, scheduled and installed.

As for your exposure to the DB. By an hour with an attny.

SNoonby -- ummm. I have no idea where you are coming from! Mortgage? Subordinate? Do I really sound that whimpy? Confused, yes, but not unable. And my exposure to the DB with an attorney? Why? Am I exposing our DB or myself to litigation? If so, I don't see it. And husband and I have read and written many contracts as we are both members of our bar.

As for your table side manner -- just a bit rough and tough for me, thank you.

Helpful advice, please.

Suzanne

personally, I would show the designs to some contractors and ask for some ball parks to find out if it is financially possible -- just sit and talk with them. That's IF the price matters to you, perhaps you're going to do it no matter what, then I would perfect the design first and then go to the contractors.

The more finishes that you can have specified up front, the closer your quote will be to the actual amount you spend. Then you can really get apples to apples quotes from the contractors

Zazutoo,
I have always worked with our architect for large remodels we have done. Most people that I know do large projects do the same. I don't know too may people that have gone with design build teams. My cohorts tend to do fairly extensive projects with architects and hire contractors to carry out the plans. Often, these projects extend into 6 figures or even 7 figures.
For good or bad, we have worked with the same architect for 20 years on this house and he knows the house extremely well.... The pros of working with architect is that you have the blueprint that you can get competetive bids on for the cost of construction. It can add to the cost of construction which may or maynot be necessary in some poeple's mind.
Most people do not have the kind of restriction regarding adding on as bostonpam does. However, most locations are limited by local rules regarding setbacks, height restrictions, lot coverage and existing conditions of the house. These are relatively simple rules that any reputable architect or contractor should be familiar with in the local area. If you want to spend the time to find out these zoning rules, that is fine. But, I actually think your time (if you have limited time) is better spent by getting a good architect that can deliever a good product at a given budget. There are market niches for architects as well. For example, you should not be interviewing architects that build homes that get featured in Metropolitan Home..... Most architects are pretty good about estimating the design cost of a given project.
Undertaking a large remodel is daunting. It is expensive and scary. Some people chose to hire companies that have had reputation for delievering good product and others chose to do the leg work to shave off the cost of contruction. Both can have unexpected consequences, good or bad. For example, inexperienced home owners can actually cost significant cost/delay to the project. Our electrician told us last week that a project that they are on has a big problem. The owner wanted to provide the can lights to save money. The electrician specified the product. The owners bought another kind because they were cheaper. Unfortunately, they are not allowed (by code) to put in the type provided by the owner. The owners will have to pay the "stocking fee" to return the lights (50 of them) and will pay the full price to electricians so there is no further delay. Since there was a delay that the owners caused, the electricians are having trouble fitting them into their schedule, probably causing delays that are going to be accumulative. Electrical work is at the front end of construction.

On the other hand, my husband is acting as the general contractor for our remodel and we will probably save significant cost due to many factors: getting multiple bids, finding cheaper/cost effective ways to achieve similar end product etc. Right now, my husband has the skill, experience and time to be the GC. Over the years, we have lined up our own subs for various work that we needed to do for our house and the rental properties. So we don't call people we don't know. Our painter, electrician, plumber, dry wall, HVAC people are people that we trust and have used many times in the past.

Even if you end up paying more for the project, if you do not have the personal resources to pull it through, then it is the necessary cost of doing the work. I have also seen way too many project where the owners have added on an eyesore of addition with the drawings provided by the just the contractor or the owner. I can spot these from a block away. Yes, you can have a cheap add on but do you want one of these? There are huge risks on hiring the cheapest person out there.

Find a good, affordable, reputable architect. This takes a lot of leg work. The design and the bid that you have from this firm is only one data point. My guess is that you will spend most of the year finding the right architect and design.

Yes, 85k not unrealistic for the tear down of the existing structure, bringing in the bulldozer, excavate, repour the footing, frame, windows, siding of the addition..... I mentioned this on your earilier post that you may not be able to "finish" the existing space if it was not properly built in the first place.

If your budget cannot handle these type of contruction cost, your best bet is to remodel the existing space live with the limitations of the house.

In the end, starting a contruction project takes a huge leap of faith in all the players involved. You really don't know what you are going to discover once you start to open up those walls. I have done several projects. I am amazed how daunting each project is even though I have done many before.

I wish you the best.

I think you need to start setting up appointments to talk to many more GC's, design firms, etc. When I started I wasn't really sure what I wanted exactly either. The more people I had over, the more ideas i got from their thoughts. As I went along I was able to become more firm in what I wanted or didn't want. I also became more knowledgable in what could or couldn't be done.
I'd also be concerned about a firm that is giving you pricing but not on what you talked about. One of the designers that gave me quotes wasn't really listening or something I guess....it was like they were designing it to be easier for them or something. Anyway, I could see that our "visions" were going in 2 different directions so we didn't use them.

Thanks for all the feed back. I have home work! I called the city this morning and I may need a visit to the "inspection desk" to get some information -- a nice morning outing for the kid and I.

I agree we need to talk to more people and also not be so careful not to spend much money on a design. I did imagine this was very simple. I see how short sighted that was.

We talked budget this weekend. It is not so much a matter of pricing ourselves out of the neighborhood, but pricing ourselves beyond our comfort zone. A $85,000 addition is too much for us. If we can't find a good job for less then we do have to live within what we have.

So, I am back to the phone and the drawing board.

Suz

Hi Suzanne,

I haven't really followed your other threads, as we are in the end stages of our 17 month whole-house remodel/addition and I have very little time on the computer. But I just wanted to chime in and say that you have gotten some very thorough and thoughtful advice here.

When we were starting our design process, we interviewed 3 architects, a design-build firm, and a gc that offers design help via a draftsman that he uses. I had already spent a couple of months imagining/sketching/clipping pictures/measuring and had a good list of 'must-haves' and 'would like to-haves' to share with them all.

In return, each firm presented me with new ideas and ways of thinking about the potential of my home. Some of the ideas ended up being incorporated into the final plan...some did not.

It took us 90 days for the interviews/selection and then 4 months to work with our selected firm to develop and finalize our plan. We then presented those plans to 6 gcs for bids (another 90 day process). In total, it took 10 months before we even applied for our building permits.

As eager as you are to get started, the more planning/organizing you can get done now will save you time and headaches down the road. Take your time. Do your homework. Get lots of bids.

Good luck!

I agree with a lot that was said, but wanted to add 1 thing.

Costs of additons do not go on a staight line.

For example your 8x18 additon doesn't cost half of a 16x18 additon. In fact, I would argue as long as there isn't something additonal in the way, the cost wouldn't be "THAT" much more to do a 16x18 additon if it is just in the same plain room with an extra window or two. The costs of doing the additon is the demoing existing with breaking through to the house, tieing into the house, having a foundation sub dig and pour, etc etc. All these things will have to be done on either additon

Point is, it costs X just to get everyone together to start the job, plus the breaking through to the existing house, and framing that transition.

That is a very good point, Chrisk. How do I find out how to optimize that cost? How do I figure out the size of the addition vs. cost?

zaz,

It didn't seem like this question was answered -- if you have a separate design contract, you probably own the design. Either way, take the design down to the Building Inspector and review your lot, your zoning and that plan. As an attorney, you understand that you must know what the law allows before you proceed.

Chrisk327 is right -- there is such a huge cost to getting started and making any home addition happen that the incremental cost per additional square foot keeps dropping, assuming you don't need a variance or special engineering. I am already thinking we should have gone bigger on our addition and the patio as we still seem to have a large backyard and I can tell we will still not have enough storage. Maybe this is living with what we can afford to have.

You can collect pricing information on your finishes and fixtures to help you estimate the cost per square foot. For the basic construction costs, I recommend the RS Means annual books on residential construction, available from the library and for purchase, for estimating what building your box should cost.

Can't remember if it was already discussed in this thread, but the usual DB mark up is 30% on everything. Using multiple bids to hire a reputable GC and/or subs (and thus doing more shopping work yourself) gets that percentage down considerably.

And I would not be fair to our architect if I did not put in a plug for the value of buying independent professional design services. From the get-go, our architect's design proposals were clearly superior to those of the DB in-house architect. As I watch the addition take shape daily, I have renewed appreciation for what good architects can do and am grateful we could afford to hire a real one.