I would just try to plan something with them a few days prior to or after Christmas. Many families have to celebrate holidays on different days. Maybe with skids that is the best plan.

And yes I would be mad if plans had been made with them and then they backed out.

I am sorry lamom. I probably would have asked what day would be good for your SS, his girlfriend and kids to come over for Christmas this year. That would have set a date for you and they would not have an excuse if they gave you this date.

I can understand his girlfriend taking the kids out of town because there is so much family and you want to make sure that you see most of the family during Christmas time.

I would have asked him "I didn't know you were working, did you get a new job?" Put him on the spot.

It doesn't work that way, bring presents. You want to get together with family and enjoy each others company. I don't like how they asked you to bring presents to there home.

Do you think it may have something to do with DS6 having cancer and they have a hard time with that? It should not be that way, you should love family no matter what.

Petunia and Mom,

Well, yes, I could have made all of our plans revolve around them. SD35 suggested gathering on New Years Day for them.

Maybe, SS29 does has an aversion to DS6 with cancer. Seems to be. It's irrational but not out of the realm of possibilty.

Anyway, I just asked DH about this and he feels that we should not move our date for them again. He has invited some other relatives and I have invited more friends now. DH surprised me by saying that I would be right to return their gifts. However, I have now dropped off the toys at the fire station for Toys For Tots and DS's surgical nurse is collecting clothes for the needy so will give them to her tomorrow before surgery. SS29 and his babymama's gift cards are now in my wallet. Instead of feeling like a fool, I feel like a philanthropist.

What do I say when they ask for their gift delivery and leftovers LOL?

This may come out wrong Lamom, and please forgive me if it does...

It sounds like you are very angry about the unfairness of life at giving your precious little boy cancer. And rightfully so. It's horrible and unfair. But it also sounds to me like some of your anger might be getting displaced onto SS29, tipping his thoughtlessness and garden-variety selfishness over into the 'unforgivable' category. I suspect SS29 is foreseeing a brittle and tension-filled formal meal at your house instead of the poignant and perfect holiday you may be envisioning.

It sounds like you are trying to build a memory, and I understand that. Keep that perfect memory just for your own little family and don't even let thoughts of SS29 into your head. Treasure what is perfect --

Im not sure taking the childrens toys back is such a great thing.

Why should the children suffer because SS and his gf are not coming?

"I suspect SS29 is foreseeing a brittle and tension-filled formal meal at your house instead of the poignant and perfect holiday you may be envisioning."

The meal is catered, not formal. Help yourself, jeans and paper plates. SS29 knows this since the kids,including mine, make a mess and break dishes. I usually cook, not this year since DS6 is having surgery the day before.

I can see SS29 feeling the mood might be heavy because DS6 is sick except, if you didn't know how sick he was you couldn't tell. My DJ friend is loading my IPod with new party music, DH has loaded the bar, we were planning a fun time.

"Why should the children suffer because SS and his gf are not coming?"
Those kids have two real bio grandmas on either side. And DH, their grandfather. I have done stuff for years, let someone else do it.

Maybe my anger about DS6's illness is spilling over in the face of SS29's "garden variety selfishness." Things I've shrugged off in the past don't feel shruggable now.

lamom

I agree with you. I think SS sounds very selfish and only cares about his girlfriend and her kids. I feel he can make an afford to be there for you, your husband and DS6.

You are right only the kids are suffering because of SS.

Lamom..."Things I've shrugged off in the past don't feel shruggable now" It's ok not to shrug everything off..it's ok to feel hurt and slighted and all the feelings you're experiencing now. You're grieving your childs illness, and the loss of your family ideal, and it's ok. SS29 is 29 not 6. He's old enough to know when something is important for the family and for your child. When you try and stuff your anger away or rationalize it away you only hurt yourself. This WILL pass and hopefully your SS will someday have the knowledge that every decision we make impacts not just our life but the lives around us. Try and have a peaceful holiday for your sake and your son...right now, he is all that matters... God Bless you and your family.

I am so sorry for all you and your family are going through. Do whatever you need to do to get through this tough time. Try your best to focus on your DH and little guy. Quit putting any energy into your SS for now. Focus on your little guy. I know he will be sad that his brother is not there for him, but try your best to put it on the backburner and deal with him later. Right now focus on bringing positive energy to your son and making this the best xmas ever for him with or without his brother. Remember, you are responsible for the energy you bring to your son. Think only good thoughts and push the rest away. Open your home and hearts to those that want to be there and well screw the rest they don't know what they are missing. Your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.

LAMOM - Are you really surprised by this turn of events? I'm not after reading your initial post from couple of weeks ago. When it comes to letting SS29 know why you can't deliver the gifts to his family, have his father deal with it and make sure he is honest. There's no need to be rude to him, but you've already given the kids' gifts away and there's really no turning back at this point.

I hope your son's procedure goes well.

"Last years story was that they were all sick but could we come over the next day to bring their presents."

That is beyond tacky,and I would have responded wih,"NO,we dont want to get sick either.You can pick up your gifts when you are feeling better".
Lamom,you are a trooper.It is ok to have hard feelings about this.

Hi lamom, I know you are dealing with a lot of emotions right now, but I think I am a bit puzzled. When I first read this post, I was thinking your post from about 2 wks ago said that you did not want DSS29 there on Christmas Eve anyway. I went back and searched and found these comments by you:

"We are hosting Christmas Eve dinner and I don't want them at my home now. Of course, univiting them would start more bad feelings but I don't care. Or should I suck it up, have them over for Christmas Eve and then distance myself and son after?"

"On Christmas Eve, I am not going to uninvite them but I am also not going to remind them (they are notoriously unreliable on their own) and I am going to plan everything assuming they will not be at our home."

"Our upcoming gathering on Xmas Eve is the finale for me. The skids will come, get a good meal and gifts."

Reading through these posts, it sounds to me like you did not want them there anyway. It sounded to me like the fact that they were going to be there was traumatizing for you, so I would think you would be relieved that they were not coming? Also, didn't you find out 2 wks ago that they weren't coming? At that point, couldn't you have reduced the amount of food that was being catered? (I assume you would still have had the meal catered, since, as I understand it, the reason for the catering was because your son is having surgery the day before--wouldn't that be today?)

I am just trying to understand the situation here. I hope your son's procedure goes well and hope for his sake that you can put aside your bitterness and just enjoy the holiday with those who are there.

I agree that them asking you to schlep their presents to them (and risk getting sick yourself) was rude and wrong. I also agree with the perception that you yourself seem to have a certain amount of hostility towards them. Also agree that a lot of this is probably anger at the world for giving your child a horrible disease while the SK's live healthily. Also agree that they SHOULD be a lot more sensitive and caring towards a sick child. But also agree that from their side it might be too much to bear, for many reasons (ranging from they just don't have the emotional maturity to face such difficult things directly, to they care but have no idea how to express it or are just really nervous about it, to their own anger-at-the-world that their father is now so much more hyper-focused on his child with you than ---perhaps--- he ever wwas with them).

My point is I don't think the dynamic between you all is anyone's fault in particular. It's obviously reached a point where things are difficult and somewhat hostile all around. You're most likely right that there's something more to the SK's rude date-breaking than inevitably bad timing. It is part of a pattern, at least so far, and it may be coincidental or it may not be. But to some extent it's useless to try and trace back a precise "point of origin" for blame... because nobody can turn back time anyway.

The only thing you can do is attempt to alter the present and the future and you can only control and adjust your own actions and responses. Depending on everyone's maturity level, it may be too late to improve relations. But maybe it isn't. In the meantime, though, if I were in your shoes I would definitely cut back my giving (holiday and otherwise) to a level that I can feel comfortable with and would not be unduly angry about having invested myself in should my plans backfire or be rudely rejected (i.e. no more down payments for catered dinners, and maintaining flexibility about the fact that people DO often have many widespread social/family obligations around holiday-time and people DO sometimes get sick and back out of plans). I'd try to maintain a baseline level of politeness and decency (i.e. make sure to at least send a card; don't take back gifts for young children out of spite) just to maintain a personal code of behavior I could respect myself for, but beyond that I'd find other means of trying to improve relations. At a certain point, you're setting yourself up (and others) for failure and disappointment or even orchestrating no-win situations if you keep planning things in the grand and precisely-timed manner it sounds like you prefer. And if that's really what you personally are comfortable with and don't feel like changing it, fine; just make sure you invite other guests so you can still enjoy your own holiday whether SK's deign to show up as promised or not.

Lamom, I'm not going to get into this because I really don't understand the situation and while I can see you are hurting I also see you as being willing to hurt back. So I'll answer your question best I can:

"What do I say when they ask for their gift delivery and leftovers LOL?"

Do as someone else suggested and have them pick up their "gifts", rather than delivering them. Buy a couple of nice cards. In the cards, write "In your honor, I have made a donation of __________ (insert name of gift/type of gift that you originally purchased for them and subsequently gave away) to the local Toys for Tots. Happy Holidays, Dad's name and your name and DS's name"

Give these cards to them as cheerful as you can. Don't mention that you gave the gifts away because they're such jerks. I think, if you picked out their gifts with the slightest thought of them personally they will see that you didn't just buy random kid gifts for the Toys for Tots kids, and that you gave away gifts that they would have liked to have received/were bought with them in mind.

Enjoy your holiday. Remember what it's about, open your heart, and try not go get hurt.
Best wishes to you and your son,
~Silver

well, I can relate. not a stepfamily issue but its' been three days in a row when we are trying to get together with my brother's family. My DD is here for only two weeks and obviously everyone wants to spend time with her. We were willing to accommodated my brother's family so they get to spend time with DD (they say they want to see her and yet they cannot plan anything). they cancelled two days in a row for a bizzare reason. yes we do get together at my parents tomorrow but my brother keeps saying they want more time with DD. we literally are willing to do it morning, day night any time, just tell us. they keep agreeing to a plan and then cancelling (too long and boring to tell you the reasons, SIL didn't finish shopping for example).

mind you we live on the same street in a walking distance. My DD lives 8 hours flight away. I travel to see her several times a year but she comes here only once a year now, at Christmas time. Next time they'll see her will be next year. I try not to get upset because it is a holiday season and I cannot change it. But i do not understand why is it so difficult to stick to a plan. I only have one sibling and yet we cannot ever have any time wiht him. sad.

My nephew just called that he knows they cancelled again but he wants to stick to a plan and he comes over to our house tonight and wants to play boardgames. I am going to cook soemhting nice now. At least their son is growing to be considered.

just to add...although my brother keeps canceeling on us i am going to give gifts to my niece and nephew, they have nothing to do with it. In fact my nephew is embarrased for his parents behavior. i don't think that when parents are
wrong children should be punished. In fact I do not believe in revenge or grudges. especially when it comes to young children.

you said your DH is not involved grandfather and does not even feel much for gandkids. you clearly do not like SS. I do not blame him for not wanting to come over, what for? But I think it is rude of him to not let you know much ahead of time. It is inconsidered of him to agree and then cancel.

good luck with your son's surgery! I hope he feels better.

mollymcb and silver, Yes, my son's surgery was this morning, I am having dinner on Christmas Eve tomorrow. I did post before that I did not want SS29 to attend our Christmas Eve dinner. I was persuaded here and by people I know who counsel me to rethink that, be the bigger person, invite SS29 and his family anyway and include them. I did that. They are not coming after saying they would come.

I am not hostile because my DS6 is sick and his brother's family is healthy. I am clear, they are MIA with DS6 at an important time and I don't like it. I now see that this is too much for them to handle, SS29 with babymama 30.

Our Christmas Eve dinner is not going to be grandiose because it's catered. It will be very casual and I'm buying the food prepared. I cook every year except this one.

Maybe I should not have given SS29's kids gifts away to charity "out of spite", however, I have and I feel good about it. The gifts went to anonymous people who will hopefully enjoy them without expectations or demands for delivery. My DS had a surgery today and I gave the box of clothing gifts to one of his nurses to donate to her church. She appreciated it and I felt like I was doing something for someone who cares. The toys I chose personally with each kid in mind went to Toys For Tots yesterday.

I have been a SM for 12 years. I was Dad's gf for 2 years before that. I have only been a mom for 6. My relationship with SS29 is a lot longer than with my DS. Doesn't that mean anything to him? Is it all my fault that he and his gf only think of themselves, being dropped off the gravy train now that they are grown? No feeling at all for DS6? What do they expect?

I am glad surgery went well. I hope your son will enjoy Christams dinner wiht his family. But I have hard time agreeing wiht double standard here. you said yourself that your DH does not have grandfatherly feelings for his grandchidlren and is not involved grandfather. you seem to be accepting of that. but you find unacceptable that your SS does not have brotherly feelings and is not involved brother. so one is OK but the other is not? it is a bit of a double standard. If you insist your SS be involved brother, why don't you insist your DH is involved grandpa? I think you should let it go and accept that some relationships are just not that close.

finedreams, Yes, there is a double standard since DH does not have strong grandfatherly feelings towards his grandkids. A lot of that has to do with SS29 not completing his education, not working and so on but still having 2 kids. DH strongly disapproves of SS29's choices. For years tried to get DH to be more accepting of SS29 and his kids, have given up. SS29's lack of attachement to DS6 I believe has to do with what was said here, the age difference, envy of DS6's lifestyle versus his as a child and his children's now, feeling that love DH has for DS6 should be directed toward the grandkids instead.

Postscript on our Christmas Eve, SD35 came with a friend, other relatives and a few friends. DS6, his first cousin and another little friend played Wii and tracked Santa on the Internet. Catered dinner was a BIG HIT and DH and I have decided to do that from now on. A very relaxed evening and nice. My heart softened and I did put together some gifts for SS29's kids. We won't make the trek to deliver their gifts to them but will host them in a Christmas Pt. 2 at our house. If they show up of course.

when i married my husband it was hard for his kids to hit all the parents christmas parties and office get togethers. no matter when we scheduled it someone would want us to change the date. finally i got tired of the situation and just set it for xmas eve and they could come or not. they all came, my parties were more fun. LOL

Lamom, I hope all goes well for your son, but if your DH has negative feelings for his Grandchildren based on what his son did, I think you should just accept you are part of a somewhat disfunctional family.

LAMOM,

Glad you found it in your heart to gather something together for SS's family. It was the right thing to do.

I just wanted to make a comment on something that you said which was based on some of our observations to your initial post of a couple of weeks ago. You currently said:

"SS29's lack of attachement to DS6 I believe has to do with what was said here, the age difference, envy of DS6's lifestyle versus his as a child and his children's now, feeling that love DH has for DS6 should be directed toward the grandkids instead."

Maybe your SS doesn't think that the love your DH has for you son should be for his kids only, but in addition to the love he has for your DS. Maybe I am reading more into what you are saying, but it sounds like you DH is indifferent and lacking any affection toward his grandkids. If I'm correct, that's kind of sad. Feel free to correct me.

I cant imagine much that would be more stressful than majory surgery right before Xmas. You should feel good about yourself for taking the high road and not being harsh on the kids. I hope things get better for you, fast.

gerina and kkny,

You are reading too much in to my comments. I never said that DH doesn't care for his grandkids, he does or that he has negative feelings, he does not lack affection but it's not spilling over for his grandkids. Rightly or wrongly DH feels SS should not have had the first, who is a very troubled child, and definitely should not have had the second. SGS2 a really sweet toddler, no terrible twos, a joy. SGS8 has emotional problems, oppositional defiance disorder among them.

The dysfunction is in full effect. Since SS29 doesn't work, hasn't completed his education DH disapproves and then he has two kids to boot. DH has a younger son, my DS6. SS29 was supported by his parents until he was 25, then they agreed to cut him off although BM and DH still give him handouts.

Yes, the dysfunction is in full effect.

Just to add, thinking about this I asked DH this morning if he felt that SS29 is bothered by him not being very involved with the grandkids. His answer no, since SS doesn't work he doesn't need babysitting so much (now that's not true, everyone needs a break), that DS came along needing attention and that SGS8 is such a difficult child that many relatives have backed off their involvement with him. (that is true including BM and SD.) He feels that SS understands this. I'm not so sure...SS might know that these are the reasons but understanding as in feeling good about it, I don't think so.

What I was trying to say is that SGC is being punished for his fathers sins. And if the younger child does go through the terrible twos, is he any less entitled to a GPs love.

Gee whiz gang I must sound terrible! yes, I have been angry that SS29 doesn't care a lot about sick DS6 with cancer. But since I am here a lot now I need to set the record straight on some things.

First, I don't dislike SS29, I just don't respect him. I've known him since he was 14 and for a LONG time I did like him a lot. He can be funny and he used to be a sweet teenager. I used to defend him to DH saying that eventually he would grow up. I did a lot of immature things in my teens and early 20s so I believed that. I did finish college, worked and did not have kids since I wasn't married however.

At 14, SS took DH's new car for a late night joyride, sideswiping some cars and had a collision with a truck. Insurance did not cover the car or the damaged truck since unlicensed SS was driving, DH had to pay out of pocket for both. I defended SS because I took my father's car as a teenager with no license, didn't say he was right but that's what teens do. SS barely graduated from high school, was sent home from boot camp unfit for military life (which we had never heard of before), couldn't/wouldn't find a job etc. I was with DH, then my bf when he drove to the bus station to pick up his son who had been kicked out of boot camp. That was one of the few times I have ever seen DH cry from disappointment and shame.

Neither SS and SD attended our wedding or reception. SD claims she was not invited. She was not sent a formal invitation since she was close family but the boycott was really out of loyalty to BM which makes no real sense but is how some skids think.

The big change in my relationship with SS came after his 1st child was born. Then, his immaturity and irresponsibility couldn't be overlooked anymore. No job, no place to live, spending time playing video games. As his son got older and started showing emotional problems that just magnified SS's own issues. I started looking at him differently. He and babymama mooched from his parents and other relative, raised their son in filthy places, didn't take him anywhere which made his emotional problems worse and would not follow through on things done by me and others to help them e.g. job interviews, therapy sessions, strings pulled to get them in to programs.

When my DS was born my focus naturally turned to him. They did not realize until then what a friend they actually had in me before. My attention turned to my DS and most of DH's did too. That's when the problems between SS, then 23, and I really got going. Remember, I've known him since he was 14.

Just so it doesn't sound like I think I'm perfect, two years ago I tried to hire SS to do some handy work which I had done before. I stopped with the handouts and gave him work instead. He didn't show up and I let him have it, calling him no account among other things. I have apologized several times. SS didn't speak to me for 6-8 months. When he, babymama, and SGS were living in motels, I pointed out that the motels were expensive and criticised him for not having done the math on how much they were costing his parents. He told me to butt out since his BM and DH were paying, not me. We argued about his "rights" with his father, my point was that he was 24 at the time and should stand on his own feet. Big mistake for the SM to say these things I know that now. I zip my lip now when the latest thing goes down with SS29, babymama and their two kids. Earlier this year, SS wanted SD35 to take SGS8, then 7, to live with her to give them a break and get him in to therapy. She asked me to set up the therapy and I did. SGS did not move in with her because he could not transfer to her local school but the therapy went forward and he is still doing it. No thanks at all from any of them to me for this. If fact, they act like I was wrong to think their kid needed therapy even though they, the school, child protective services did too. SS wanted to ship out SGS at 7 for a break but wants DH to be a more involved grandpa. Meanwhile he had a 2nd child!

Now my DS is 6 and he loves his big brother and nephews. They don't seem to love him. DS6 is very ill and I look at my SS29 who is MIA on helping his little brother. People here have said the reasons are because of the age difference, DS6's competition with SGS8 and SGS2 and all of the usual skids, 1/2 sibs stuff like DS is only technically a brother in SS29's mind. I believe that now after reading it here.

Maybe I am now an evil SM but I wasn't always that way. When SS was the only kid in town since SD has always been independent things were better, he enjoyed the free ride on the gravy train. When the new crop of children showed up, SGS8, DS6 and SGS2 the big problems began.

Lamom... your hubby's relationship with his children is his issue. Not yours you can't fix it nothing to fix its just the way it is. Good or bad it is what it is. (Theirs)

Step back tell them your plans ... we are having dinner at ____o'clock if they show up they show up if not oh well more leftovers and less cooking you have to do the next couple of days. (bonus)

I understand why you want your SS29 to be involved with your DS6 not just because of the cancer but because you feel like they are brothers and should be there for each other but apparently your SS has a different view of things. I am sure it hurts your son but like many of us we cannot protect them from the adults in their lives who mistreat them we have to accept and help them accept it and move on... no clue how to move on but we do.

I personally would not exclude SGS because of their dad. Do what you want to do for them and nothing more ... if hubby wants to do for them he will or he won't again thats not on you but you might have to "warn him" hey is there something you want me to go get for YOUR GC? or reminding him his GC's birthday is next week... is about all the help I would give.

There is only so much we can do as people to keep forgiving people who continually mistreat us ... whats that old saying 'one burned twice stupid'.

Lamom...

How are you doing? Just checking in on you.

LAmom you poor Poppet!

Stepson "Uncomfortable about his little brothers cancer?"
Pfftt! Yeah right! More like an overgrown child throwing tantrum. Poor widdle child-of-divorce, woe-is-me my-life-stinks-because-my-Mommy-and-Daddy-broke-up 28yo stepson is jealous because your little Fellow is the center of attention. So let him get his panties in a wad all he wants. All that's important is you DH and DS.

Petunia,

Thanks for checking on me. We are waiting for test results from DS6's biopsy surgery last week. He has more chemo this week and begins radiation next week.

He is in good spirits and so are we. It's disappointing to say that he is the only one important. At the end of the evening when SS29 came by with his kids, SGS8 commented "I don't come by here very often" because he misplaced one of his gifts that I promised to get to him. I thought to myself "that's right."

lamom,

I am praying that you get good results from your son's biopsy. My heart goes out to your family.

Seriously...don't let any of the family drama take your attention and energy away from you and your son. I am normally all about keeping the peace but I think this is really one of those times where you really have to focus on what's best for you and your son. This is one of those situations where what's important is really put into perspective. Yes, it's sad that SS won't or can't have a relationship with his little brother--but it is what it is and you can't change what he does or doesn't do. Love your step-grandchildren and I would continue to reach out to them; but let DH determine his relationship with his adult son. I think in the future---it would be appropriate for you to tell DH "hey, we're having a family dinner" or whatever, and then let HIM be the one to invite his son. Don't let it become your problem--you have enough on your plate.

I love the following quote:

" Always be yourself because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

Lamom,

I am praying for you and your family that your son's biopsy comes back with good news.

The most important person right now is your DS. He needs all the love and support he can get right now and that is coming from mom and dad. Your SS29 is very selfish and should be more concerned about DS's health. Your job is loving and being there for DS6. Don't worry about SS29, he is a big boy and one day he will regret how he is treating the family.

My prayers go out to you and your family.

We have been married 10 years, and every Christmas was either a drama, a major disappointment, or both.
So, we found something that really works. We have a family brunch one Saturday in December, and invite everyone from
my husband's family, except ex-wife. We have a nice time, and open presents with the step-kids after everyone else leaves. Then on Christmas eve, we plan something with just my husband and my kids. Either we go to my parents house, or go to the beach for a week. But we are not at home to be disappointed by anyone. It has really taken a lot of pressure off of our family. Everyone is free to go somewhere else for Christmas, and there are no disppointments and no bad behavior. They can't stand you up, if they are not invited for Christmas.

Southern,

I like that idea a lot. Especially going away for Christmas. Having dinner on some neutral day sounds good too although I'm not going to put a lot of effort in to it. These are great, healthy ideas. Thanks

Welcome back southern!!! do you hear from vista at all? you both left about the same time

All,

I went back and reread a few of my old posts especially the ones from when I first started to write here.

As I read them now, I feel that if I hadn't lived through all of this with my DH and adult skids, I wouldn't believe it. And as I reflect on all of the other drama that so many of us experience in the stepfamily scenario I really breathe a sigh of relief.

Two Xmas' before I posted the above, I bought Christmas stockings with my skids, stepgrandkids, DH, DS and my names on them. Hung them over the fireplace with stocking stuffers DH and I bought, the whole routine. This past Xmas when I unpacked the decorations I found them. I offered them to DH to give to his brood as they are very nice wool embroidered stockings, too nice to throw away. He tossed them in his trunk saying "That was your thing." The whole togetherness, holidays, Brady Bunch scenario I tried to make happen. He was right, I was the only one who really ever wanted that.

There is a gentleman who is interested in dating me but things are just too fresh right now, and the divorce isn't done. However, the BIGGEST thing by far that is making me look hard before I leap is that he has an 11 year old daughter for whom he has joint custody. He has told me many times he thinks I'm a good mother vs his ex. Oh boy, totally the wrong thing to say!!!

"That was your thing"

Yea, maybe you should tell him that is why you're here today (in divorce court). Marriage takes two people to work. It was your thing to try to make nice memories, love, nurture, work at things, and care?

What a jerk.

"that was your thing" jerk...