NO!
A ground rod does NOT "provide" or create a ground. At least not the safety ground you are looking for. This is "created" by the neutral to ground bond found at the main panel.
Aside from running a new line to this location there is little else you can do to get a ground to this receptacle.

bulloney.

"bulloney" to what?

You know bullheimer...those answers aren't productive and could be considered detrimental. You made a post on another thread about how you charge the same for different size panels...and admitted you were screwing the customer on one of them. Please post who you work for so all of us know who not to call, ok? It's attitudes like yours that "force" many of us to do some of this ourselves and ruin the reputation of all the other good ones who do it right.

it would be nice if bullheinmer would at least learn to spell if since he post things that are wrong. That way at least he would be correct somewhere in life.

Petey is absolutely correct. The ground you need actually isn;t a ground per se. It is a low impedance path to the neutral connection in the service panel that allows enough current to flow to trip the OCPD quickly and predictably.

the Earth is too resistive to allow this to happen.

Since rods are allowed to be as high as 25 ohms and be adequate, what is going to happen with a 120 V short to a 25 ohm rod?
About 4.8 amps will flow. More than enough to light up the LEDs or neon lights in a tester, but NOT nearly enough to trip an OCD.
The ground rods (and the entire electrode system) are for high voltage protection.
Pole transformers operate at 7.2 kV. At this voltage you can drive ~288 amps trough that 25 ohm rod.
Pole transformers also have some capacitive coupling from the primary side to the secondary (12/240 V) side.
To make sure the secondary cannot rise for any reason we use the earth as a reference point, since that is what the POCO uses.
The system also provides a place for lightning and other very high voltage transients to be routed to earth.
The only currents seeking earth itself are lightning.
All the other currents are trying to return to the secondary of the transformer or back to the generator.
I have equipment that will actually load grounding conductors to check if they are good.
It is used in industrial settings pretty routinely to verify grounding quality.
Not the few milliamps that a typical receptacle tester uses, but currents up to the available circuit ampacity.

Stupid is as stupid does! When something causes the hot conductor to contact your ground wire it will not trip the overcurrent device. It will however make it and the metallic case of the device, (refrigerator, computer etc...) that is plugged in, hot, and someone that comes in contact with it can be electrocuted. This is called manslaughter in my territory. YOU MUST CONNECT THE GROUND WIRE TO THE NEUTRAL OF THE SERVICE TO TRIP THE OVERCURRENT DEVICE!!!!!!!!

brickeyee is correct. i am a ga state licensed master electrician, and can make an educated guess that bullheimer may be a self-proclaimed "master electrician", but definately not one licensed by any state or union. if he is remind me never to move to the state he lives in lol. the grounding of ac systems and it's purpose is a very basic concept even helpers are familiar with. however, i would like to point out that any of the methods described in 250.130(C) may be used to ground the receptacle. that being said, if he were to drive a rod connect it to the current grounding electrode system, then it would be a permissible installation. or, if copper water lines were used (most likely in a house that age), and they are part of the grounding electrode system, he could just drop down and bond to the cold water. however, this would create inductance in the event of a fault since the fault path is not run with the circuit conductors, which would make it take a little longer to trip the ocpd, but it would be code compliant. if i were doing this for a customer, i would pull a new line back to the panel. just my 2 cents.

Jmorrow...I am confused. You said you agree with what brickeye said and then you seemed to go on to say the opposite. he said the ground rod wouldn't work, but you quote the code that says this method would be allowable. I am a lay person but have an interest in this thread. I was helping my son in his detached garage. There is an ungrounded 12-2 feeding the garage. It is fed through PVC run under a paved driveway. We couldn't pull a new wire through because of all the bends and we would have either had to dig up the "in great condition" blacktop or run something overhead. We just drove 2 ground rods and ran a #8 ground wire into the first JB. We added a few other receptacles to this.
So, now from the posts here, I'm not sure if this is doing any good in the grounding dept. or not!
Mark

My understanding of how a separate ground rod must be used is the new ground rod must be connected to the grounding system (ground rod) in the main structure. Therefore, you can use a ground rod for your detached garage, but it must be bonded to the ground rod for the main house. You're going to have to run a wire either way it seems to me.

The ground rod is not part of the safety ground system.
A separate structure with a ground rod does not get 'ground' from the rod but from the groundED conductor run with the feed.
This is your reference for all the other voltages.
The POCO uses earth to limit leakage voltages.
One of the problems that occurs in isolated transformers is that leakage WILL cause the secondary to rise.
This would mean that while you would have 120/240 V referenced to the center tap of the secondary, the center tap could be at ANY voltage, and would tend to approach the primary voltage.
If the insulation could stand up, you could have 7200 V on the 'neutral' coming from the pole transformer.
Measuring the voltage from the neutral to each end if the winding would still be 120 V, but the whole thing would be riding on 7200 V.
To prevent this the POCO uses the earth as a local reference for the secondary, and in some areas with very poor ground conduction (arid areas) even runs a neutral along with the 3 phase conductors.
Do a search for the 'worm getter' if you want to see how poor a conductor the earth is at 120 V.

i was definately not agreeing with bullheimer. he was saying that it would be ok to drive a rod below the receptacle and connect the ground to it. in itself, this installation would be incorrect. however, if the rod that was driven was connected to the current grounding electrode system (main ground rod, copper water lines, etc) then it would be ok. the reason for this is because the grounding electrode system is electrically connected to the neutral. basically, the ground MUST be connected to the neutral tap from the transformer. now, if n5odj's question was whether or not he was allowed to ground the receptacle to a currently installed ground rod, then yes he is allowed to do this.

i'm sorry i thought you said i agreed with bullheimer lol. yes what brickeyee said was 100% correct. the terminology can be very confusing for people not familiar with electrical systems. the "ground" for the receptacle is actually a neutral. the difference between the two is the functions that they perform. the neutral (grounded conductor) is designed to carry current back to the supply after it is used. the ground (equipment grounding conductor) is used to carry current in the event of a fault to prevent the cases of electrical equipment from becoming energized. the reason you can't just connect the cases to the neutral is because then normal operating currents would flow over all the pieces of equipment (can present shock and/or fire hazards). the ground allows the equipment to be connected to the neutral conductor without any current flowing on it, except in the event of a fault. the grounding electrode system is electrically connected to the neutral either at the service disconnecting means or the meter can. it is because of this connection that you are allowed to use copper water lines or an existing ground rod to ground the receptacle, not because the rod or water lines are in direct contact with the earth. if a piece of equipment connected to the receptacle were to have a ground fault occur, the current would flow down the wire to the water lines or rod, then up the grounding electrode conductor to the point where it is connected to the neutral, then up the neutral to the transformer. very little fault current (if any), would actually flow to earth.

sorry forgot to add, the reason an isolated rod would not be permissible is because the connection to the neutral conductor is not present.

"as far as i am concerned if i get my Circuit analizer to show that the outlet is grounded when i plug it in, ie it says "wired correctly" then it is grounded."

Wow it is scarry some of the people out there that can become master electricians.

You aren't kidding.

I can make that same tester read OK if the ground and neutral are screwed up on a recep as well. Still doesn;t make it correct.

and my actual mispelling reference was that it is spelled BOLOGNA, so, if you want to add your bull to it, it would be bullogna.

and obviously being a "master electrician" does not require the same level of testing as in my state. If your comment is indicative of both your work ethic and your understanding of electricity, I can only hope when something burns down that nobody is injured.

WOW! I go away for a day and half of fishing and look what happens! Old bull puts his foot so far in him mouth it's not funny.

The line Spence quote speaks VOLUMES!

Whud you catch?

Over the years I have seen many disconnects between electricians and POCO distribution wiring.
While the NEC tries to define some rules for it (cable clearance, transformer vaults, etc.) the vast majority of distribution wiring is under a completely different set of standards and the NEC does NOT apply.
There have even been fights over applying the NEC to POCO generator building wiring (the general wiring is under the NEC, while the prime equipment and distribution gear is not).
Things the POCO does to ensure a safe and reliable system are often very different and designed to cope with a separate set of issues and problems.
The grounding of services is one area that must comply with the needs of both parties (POCO and NEC).
There are a number of methods the POCO uses that are safe with the level of maintenance and supervision of the system they provide that the NEC would s**t the proverbial brick over.
There is a reason that PEs often design power substations and not NEC electricians.

"Whud you catch?"

Not much! Was going for large mouth and pike but basically got skunked. Nasty cold front came through.
The kids got about 137 sunnys and bluegills though. They had a blast so it was worth it.

I have an old house with 2 pronged ungrounded outlets. I want them upgraded to 3 prong/grounded outlets.

Electrician 1: wire from outlets to service panel. $250 for 1 outlet, $400 for 2 outlets

Electrician 2: not sure what technique he is going to use, but it would be considerably cheaper. I didn't completely understand the technique he is going to use, but it wouldn't be running the wires to the service panel.

What should I expect to pay?(what is reasonable?)

Note to anyone who will listen.
Never ever, ever listen to Bullhenie !!!

That was one of the worst answers I have ever seen or heard. If one of my guys had said or done something like that I have no idea what I would do.

On the panel size subject, I understand that the labor is about the same but between the panel, wire and grounding wire sometimes there can be a substantial saving by going with a 150. 1000 sq foot house, gas heat gas water heater a 150 is just fine.

I would run a separate ground wire back to the earth ground/neutral point at the main service entrance. Never connect the ground wire to the neutral or to a separate ground rod (unless that ground rod is firmly bonded to the one at the main entrance, using at least #6 copper wire). The ground wire from the outlet back to the entrance may be bare or insulated copper. I would use at least the same size as the hot and neutral. I'm not positive what the NEC says, but I don't think the new ground wire would have to follow the same physical path back through the house as the original wiring. For example, if the original wiring runs through the walls, it might easier to run the ground wire under the house, tacked to the floor joists or to the ceiling joists of an unfinished cellar.

The neutral wire should always be treated as a live wire, exactly like the hot wire.

The purpose of the ground wire is to provide a return path back to the entrance ground, capable of carrying the full current and tripping the breaker, in case the neutral wire fails, or a short develops between the hot wire and an exposed part of the appliance.

The ONLY place in the entire system where the ground and neutral should be connected together is at the service entrance point right at the meter.

• I had a washing machine i used outside my old rental house on a skid. When i touched it i got shocked. A little bit. So i drove a ground rod in the ground beside it and connected a wire and no more shock. Today i Plugged in a guitar amp and get a buzz fron the 2 prong non grounded plug. When i touch the guitar cable input plug it grounds on me and stops buzzing. So why cant i connect a green copper wire to the plug run it out the house to a ground rod to stop the buzz. I use protectors on all inside plugs and wont rewire the house nor will the owner i rent from. I dont care if a breaker trips at the box i just want to stop that buzz. So am i a bull bologna man also?

And there are no electrical boxes in the walls. The inputs are nailed to the 2x4. Im in panama renting a 60 years old house which i love. Even as much as the termites do.