"This whole anti-stepparents attitude on a
STEPFAMILY FORUM is ridiculous!!!!!! I guess what happened was BM's just wanted a place to get revenge on their ex's...so they came here!"

Open forum. Anybody can post. (And there are a LOT of people that have a LOT of time out there... Wish I had 'bout 25% of it!)

Frankly, for a long time, this forum has required major sifting. The SM/BM battle has crowded out some of the useful information and made it more difficult to find the good advice that is given.

I wish there were more attention to being helpful to some of the people that come here for advice rather than this constant battle of who's "right."

....but there isn't, which is kind of a shame....

Ten years of marriage is a short time to be married when there are children involved, especially.

I am well aware of the issue of overpopulation. My point, once again, was that the original comparison ("why have kids at all" was illogical. All animals, including humans, are driven to reproduce, in order to continue the species. Some risk is necessary in order achieve that. However, except in cases where the mother is completely absent or dead, there is little reason for stepmothers to take over the role of the mother. Even if the mother is completely absent or dead, the majority of custodial fathers are fully capable of taking care of their children well enough to have them survive until adulthood. If all the stepmothers who are married to custodial fathers on this forum suddenly disappeared, would any of the children starve to death? I would hope not. The fathers would just have to do what single mothers have been doing all along - find a job that doesn't involve long hours, or being away all week, and take care of their children by themselves. In most cases, spending more time with their children would result in a closer relationship with them. Is there really any stepmother married to a CP here who thinks having the father spend more time with his children would not be a good thing for them? Even in those rare cases where everyone gets along well and the remarriage lasts, too many fathers are not as involved as they should be in their children's upbringing when there is a woman they can depend on to run everything. Although this can be true in intact biological families as well, at least in those cases the person raising the children is their biological parent. Would anyone claim that it is better to be raised by a stepmother, no matter how competent, than by an equally competent biological mother?

You claim that the children benefit from having a stepmother as mother figure. This might be true in those rare cases where everyone gets along and where the remarriage lasts, if and only if having the mother figure does not result in the father being less involved than he would be had there been no stepmother, but I believe that such cases are very, very rare.

Before I go through the posts and reply (Thanks for so many posts!)

I just have to add that today i found out from my ex that he is leaving his 2nd wife because he has met somebody else and is in love with her while still married to this one.

In fact my marriage with him ended because he started liking somebody else (long time ago).

Then when he was with that "somebody else he liked" living for few years, he met this current who became his second wife.

Now he is leaving this one for somebody else again. In a mean while my daughter and now her brother from his second marriage are on a suffering end.

Of course I have nothing against step-parents being involved at all. But in all of these cases he was leaving one woman for "the other woman". Do you see now why i am glad these "other women" are not getting stepkids too involved?

Just to add that my daughter will have 3rd step-mother soon, which one of them was "the other woman". My daughter is a grown woman pretty much and always gets a long with everyone, but do you see how it can effect a young woman that her father leaves evry woman for someone else!

My DD tells me that her Dad is cheating on his GF, who was TOW. I tell her I dont need to know this, all I need to know is issues involving DD. But it is pretty clear even if dad leaves GF for another, DD is not going to be too trusting of any woman of Dad's.

What scares me in all this is that it might effect our children's adult lives and choice of partners. My daughter might have issue with trusting people, both men and women. Same with yours. Men have no shame, frankly. I feel pretty bitter about all this...

Sorry BMs, cases allowing visitation and or custody to SMs are more plentiful than you seem to think:

Alaska: Alaska Stat. 25.24.150(a) (Michie 1995) (provides standing for custody rights to third parties on divorce, separation, or death of parent). Carter v. Broderick, 644 P.2d 850 (Alaska 1982) (court may grant visitation to stepparent who stands in loco parentis to child).

California: Cal. Fam. Code 3040(3), 3041 (West 1994) (authorizing nonparent custody based on finding that an award of custody to parent would be detrimental to child and award to nonparent would serve best interests of child); Cal. Fam. Code 3101 (West 1994) (specifically recognizing stepparent visitation on divorce or death of parent). In re Marriage of Hinman, 6 Cal. App. 4th 711, 8 Cal. Rptr. 2d 245 (1992) (court had authority to award custody to stepparent, estopping natural mother from denying that children were "of the marriage" where she so claimed in pleadings); Goetz v. Lewis, 203 Cal. App. 3d 514, 250 Cal. Rptr. 30 (1988) (court does not have jurisdiction in divorce proceeding to determine custody of child not of the parties, but may, by statute, grant visitation rights); In re Hirenia C., 18 Cal. App. 4th 504, 22 Cal. Rptr. 2d 443 (1993) (former female cohabitant of preadoptive mother had standing to request visitation where child had been placed with both women as foster parents prior to adoption).

Colorado: Colo. Rev. Stat. 14-10-123 (1987) (nonparent has standing, under state provision of Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act, to assert custody of child where he or she has had custody of the child for six months). In re Custody of C.C.R.G., 872 P.2d 1337 (Colo. Ct. App. 1993) (court could consider stepparent's claim to custody under provisions of Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act); In re Marriage of Dureno, 854 P.2d 1352 (Colo. Ct. App. 1992) (trial court may grant visitation privileges to stepparent where stepparent has acted in loco parentis).

Delaware: Del. Code Ann. tit. 13, 733 (1996) (authorizes court to award custody to stepparent based on child's best interests).

Hawaii: Haw. Rev. Stat. 571-46(2) (Supp. 1995) (custody may be awarded to persons other than the mother or father, where such award serves the best interests of the child; person with de facto custody in a stable and wholesome environment is entitled to prima facie award of custody); Haw. Rev. Stat. 571-46(7) (Supp. 1995) (allowing court to grant visitation rights to any person on divorce on showing of best interests of the child).

Idaho: Stockwell v. Stockwell, 775 P.2d 611 (Idaho 1989) (visitation granted to stepparent under theory of in loco parentis).

Illinois: 750 Ill. Comp. Stat. Ann. 5/601(b)(2) (West Supp. 1996) (state provision of Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act, permitting person other than parent to petition for custody or visitation if the child is not in the physical custody of one of his parents). In re Marriage of Carey, 188 Ill. App. 3d 1040, 544 N.E.2d 1293 (1989) (under Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act, a nonparent, without showing that the natural parent is unfit, may obtain custody of the child if the best interests of the child so dictate).

Shall I keep going?

You are my hero!!!!

20 cases out of how many custody disputes, divorces, etc.

1. How many of these cases involved mother who was dead, not there, etc.

2. I guess the SMs here stand for the proposition that they can alternatively lock kids out of the house the minute they turn 18, and/or go for custody. Helps cut down on CS, now that states are actully enforcing it.

Even though its not a multitude of cases, the case law is still there!!! The precedence is being set.

Of course, I believe if a stepparent is found to have acted in loco parentis, they also may be obligated to provide child support. I believe there may already be instances of where this has occurred.

OK, how many SMs here have a court order (not some stateement they typed and their DH signed in front of notary) giving them any rights?

But lone, would love to hear Cawfe back here in a couple of years having to pay CS.

YES....stepparents do and can pay CS to/for stepchildren.... cannot site "law" but ... if you "acted as a parent" for that child for more than 10 years I believe you can pay CS for that child.

A friend of mine received support from her ex husband for her son ...she was pregnant when they started dating ex-hubby was there for his birth and until the child was 14 they divorced and ex paid CS for her son.

She was "dependant" on ex's income to raise her child.

Cawfecupoh and mom dad and stepdad .... the dads had EOW visitation with the 14 yr old. :)

Cawfe,

I am certain there are millions of stories, and if your freind was married when she gave birth, unless DH fought paternity at that time, in my state he is out of luck.

I could win the lottery tomorrow, but I wouldnt count on it. But that is more likely than any SM getting any rights to my DD.

TOS asked earlier how many Dads get second wife, as nanny/houskeeper. I would agree, but would amplify, how many see unpaid child care by SM as a way to cut CS.

No, I don't have a court order giving me any legal rights. I know and understand that I do not have any legal rights in regards to my stepchildren. Any part that I play in their lives is granted to me by my husband (and by their mother and her silence in the matter of my participation). But God forbid if my husband were to die I would fight my hardest not only to be able to see my stepdaughters but to try to keep them living with me.

I can't comment as to how Cawfe would feel. Personally I can only guess as to how I would feel if I was asked to pay child support!! Truthfully? I suppose irritated that their mother hasn't had to pay child support all these years!! It's a very selfish reaction (LOL!), however, I can obviously see the benefit for the children.

I was answering lones post...

And yes as a second wife I am the nanny babysitter with benefits ... :)

But I refuse to be treated like the nanny/babysitter. :)

You don't think I haven't thought about that .... its one of the reasons I didn't quit my job until after we were married for 6 months ... When it became a choice of hubby spending the same amount as my paycheck plus $100 a week to put 3 children in daycare for the summer. So we decided it was more beneficial to have me home with them during the summer (at this point mom was taking them less than 1 day per week and not paying any support.) This was my second summer home with them.

Actually, most involved a situation where one of the parents was still alive and fighting the request for visitation/custody.

In fact, the Illinois case was a fight where the BM and SM were fighting for custody after Dad had died. The SM was awarded custody.

As the comment about "20 out of how many . . ." Only a very small fraction of cases ever end up with a published opinion. But if you want more, I'd be happy to provide them.

Best interests of the child is a very common standard and biology isn't necessarily the dominant factor considered.

"...how many see unpaid child care by SM as a way to cut CS."

1. My stepdaughters are teenagers, too old for child care.

2. Cut child support? They live with me and my husband full-time. He does not receive child support from his ex-wife.

Sarah,

Again, how many SMs does anyone know with custody (I mean after DH is gone)? There are always anonomlies.

LOne -- my point, now many X Husbands see keeping kids with them and SM as a way to decrease CS if they lived with mom.

Cawfe, summers are tough on people wiht children. But I have seen how much compassiion you have for woman who work in retail, and need to work weekends.

I didn't mean to sound gleeful about the posting... sorry.

But Hubby will eventually need more surgeries.... And in my most desparate moments with their mom... I have said that will be my first phone call if something happens to hubby ... I will be calling mom .... "come get your children my husband is dead".... something along those lines.

Hubby jokes.... don't worry she would rather pay you CS than spend any more time with her children. Sad but probably true.

So we have discussed this ... lets say he does have surgery and is in the hospital for an extended period of time recuperating.... who will be "in charge" of the children.

Any more than a 48-hour stay I am to call her and she is to come get her children.

KKNY

I do have compassion for woman who work retail but they find a way to spend time with their children.... She chose to work in retail she chose to put her job over her children. She has been out of work since june 1st ...When she was in retail she chose not to spend time with her children ... she could have taken then on days other than weekends... she chose thurs nights and sunday nights.... thats what she wanted thats what she got..

When they split dad's income was less than a $1000 a month ... mom's income was about $15,000 a month ... she didn't pay any support for 18 months. Her arrears were almost $10,000. No one is stopping her from spending time with her children.... just want her to stop bashing hubby while she is spending time with them..... her emotional breakdowns are not their problem they should be able to love both parents with out the bashing.

Didn't want a _______ contest with you. I will stop now...

What kind of retail job makes $15,000 a month??!

She was/is a real estate owner/broker....

She filed personal and business bankruptcy and any things with both their names on fell on hubby's shoulders(wallet). Loans (they used to start her business) Credit cards (they both used)

She is now on unemployment and working real estate plus working "under the table" for another company.

She took a job in retail so she could "prove lower income" .... so she could get the CS reduced.

The retail job ended June 1st.... so whats her excuse now?

I think real estate can be a tough field, and in the dumps where I live right now. That being said, it is frequently the best paying job a woman without a college degree can get and by hustling (and I mean that in a non-sexual way) can make money.

"my point, now many X Husbands see keeping kids with them and SM as a way to decrease CS if they lived with mom."

In my experience's having children live with you full time is so much more expensive than what you'd be dishing out in childsupport! I'd save almost 2K a month if my SS lived with their mother and DH paid CS...

I know it is more expensive, I just question that as many Dad's understand this. Then they go nuts with why grocery bills are so high, etc. My X says his GF is a great housekeeper etc., his house is clean, low grocer bills. Of course, they have no children there.

Getting back on track --

FineDreams - I'm so sorry about your Ex's continued bad behavior. He really IS setting a horrible example, and setting his children up for a series of failed relationships down the road. I can see how it would be very difficult to be asked to bond with Other Woman after Other Woman. Or to NOT bond with the 'current' wife, just because you have reason to belive she's just 'flavor of the month' like everyone else has been...

It's too bad he's too selfish and short-sighted to see this for himself, and I wonder if there's anything that can be done to minimize the harm to your children.

I wish you the best of luck with that...

Finedreams, there may actually be something you can do to minimize the harm. You can't control your ex-husband but you can help minimize the impact of instability by your stableness (I'm not sure that's a word but I'm going with it!! LOL!). You can be the "good example" for your daughter. She can and will learn from you. The upside of having a father like your ex-husband (okay, it's not really an upside but I'm trying to be postive!) is that your daughter can compare the differences between your life and his life, how she wants to act when she's all grown up and how she doesn't want to act.

Unless I missed something, all those case law examples dated from no more recently than 1996, and one was from 1982, a quarter of a century ago.

I guess you're going to have to keep going. Is there a statute of limitations on precedent in case law?

I am not a lawyer, but case law often becomes irrelevant. Case law related to racial discrimination from prior to the 60's certainly wouldn't be relevant today.

Wrychoice -- I think those cases combine totally bizarre situations, or SM having a lot more money. In the recent Supreme Court decision, Toxel, in a case involving Grandparent visition, the Supreme Court set a very very high standard for non-biological parent visitition. Yes, some will meet it. I dont think many. But this board seems to have a lot of SMs married to Dads with less than full custody, who dont want more of the child, just more rights to disclipine the child etc.

"I think the difference is that after divorce, mom is still mom to the child, and dad is still dad, but step parents, for better or worse, have no relationship left."

NOT TRUE- we have close friends who divorced and step father is really involved his his SDs lives in fact at school games step father and mother's husband both come to watch the games although bio dad is nowhere to be found.

I have a step daughter from my first marriage who is the half sibling to my children and I still send her gifts and keep in touch with her for the sake of her brother and sister.

Alright, after divorce, steps have no mandated relationship. It is optional. Not true for parents. Much harder for parents to avoid any relationship. Possible, but not the same.

have any of the mom's that like to throw out the divorce statistics for 2nd marriages feel better to see their ex go through a string of marriages? It's obvious they don't want to spend the rest of their lives single, they are going to look for someone to share it. As you go out of your way to be right and hoping, waiting and anticipating his next divorce so you can say HA,I was right, just know that the more times he remarries, your child is going through that too. Isn't that making your child's life harder? It may not be the mom's fault her ex is doing what he's doing, but if you are too wrapped up in how it makes you feel, then you are subjecting your children to emotional pain? Don't you think your attitudes are harmful to your children? Their dad's behavior may be harmful and you can't change that, but you can change yourself if you want. If you love your children, then you would let go of the anger for them. It's sad to me that someone would say "That's why Step-parents should not be overly involved with their step children!" That is now the step child's siblings parent so they are still connected through that child.

Children are not your property, they have their own minds and hearts. If you don't think that someday they will realize that you ran your own agenda instead of theirs, they will. I'd love to hear from you in 20+ years.

Ima,

Whether Dad gets divorced again or not is up to him. Of course in my case, unlikely as he hasnt remarried yet. But if her were to remarry it would be likely he would divorce again. Maybe some SMs might stay in touch, but IMHO unlikely when GF comes in the picture when DD is already in her teens. But you never know.

YOu say,"It may not be the mom's fault her ex is doing what he's doing, ". I think you mean the stepmom.

Ima, you know, I could be a 15 year old girl upset with my parents divorce. That is the internet. You never know. And you could be a SM and not a mom, or a mom with children only with the divorced dad, trying to convince moms to be more accomodatng to stepmoms. We dont know.

TOS,
"You don't have to go out of your way to make your children miserable but adding stepparents into the mix. "

Thats' the most digusting thing i have ever read in my entire life.
YOU BIOPARENTS MAKE THE KIDS MISERABLE BECAUSE YOU BOTH DIVORCE BECAUSE YOU BOTH COULDN'T DEAL WITH EACH OTHER. Dont blame others for your bloody messy divorce. Stepparents are not to be blamed one bit for misery. Stepkids that are miserable from the begining are due to baggage handed by both parents. Take responsibility both bioparents for your actions and dotn blame a stepparent. unless the stepparent really does exclude the child and verbally abuses them , then i can totally understand. There are evil people out there. including bioparents!!!! I've heard of many loser mothers and loser fathers. It just sound to me you have a big chip against Stepmothers here and all i ask is to stop pegging everyone under the same boat. nto all stepmoms are evil.
I am not. my stepmom wasnt' either! I had two stepmom. One was evil, not to me, but to her own kids. the second was a blessign for me during my rough teenage years.
Miserable Stepkids need the attention of both bioparents and need counselign especially if its the result of the divorce and bioparents not getting along. Dotn peg the stepparent.

Actually my exH's current wife DOES verbally abuse and exclude my children. My exH has specifically stated to me and to a counselor that the kids are not allowed to visit because SHE doesn't want them there.

My ex-husband and I have no trouble dealing with each other as long as his wife doesn't get involved. The counselor we were seeing during the divorce process told us that counseling was not needed any more, because it was obvious that we could work out issues between us. My husband suggested meeting several times for lunch to work out a separation agreement, and I agreed. The OW nixed that idea, and made the whole process far more expensive and difficult for both my H and me than it needed to be.

If you look back at the "would you be a stepparent again" thread, almost everyone said absolutely not. Very few stepmothers on this forum like their stepchildren, and most of them blame the real mother and frequently the father for any problems.

In general, I believe that the real parents would be able to work together to parent the children far better if there were no stepparents.

You still refer to him as your husband? you refer to real mother and the real parents. You are quite funny. You and your husband don't even need counselling because it is so obvious you can work out issues between yourselves. It is only when SHE gets involved.

Do you honestly even believe yourself?

MOST stepmothers like their stepchildren just fine. I really pity your EX having to put up with you.

I also grant you the come round go round wish of adult stepchildren. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE we are going to be having some fun here.

Colleen, TOS refered to him as her H, as at the point in time she was discussing they wre still married.

"Most stepmothers like their stepchildren" - really there are plenty of posts from SMs or FSMs who dont.

but thanks for bringing that to my attention;)

wow, do you really think that step parents that have supportive bioparents NEED to come to place like this??? Of course there are going to be a lot of messages from frustrated step parents. I'm not saying that there aren't any thay just don't want the step kid around.

If TOS thinks it's all her X's wife's fault, she's completely off base. HE MARRIED HER. HE ALLOWS HER TO TREAT HIS DAUGHTER HOW SHE DOES AND IF HE ALLOWS HER TO EXCLUDE HIS DAUGHTER THEN IT'S ALL HIS FAULT. If he's such a good guy that he gets along with you when SHE isn't involved, then why isn't he being a stand up dad and protecting his daughter? SHE's NOT the problem, HE IS. You may not like his decision to stay with someone like that, if she really is like that, but it's NOT your place to say. He is the parent in his house, just as you are the parent in yours. If she is "verbally abusive" then it's HIS place to protect his daughter. I've raised plenty of kids and I know that parents can get stressed out and yell, sometimes say things when angry or frustrated at our own kids, so why is it when a step mom does that, she's so "verbally abusive" that she shouldn't be around our kids? If she truly doesn't like your child, that is something the father needs to handle, but you have no more control over it than your ex husband would have over who you choose in your life. And then it would be YOUR responsibility to deal with those issues in YOUR house.

and I totally agree with Maria, some of these deep rooted problems existed long before a step parent came along. Obviously, there were so many problems that the parents got divorced for a reason. I don't imagine too many people just decide they want a divorce because there is only one problem. Even if that problem is an affair, there are usually ongoing problems that lead to the decision to have an affair.

TOSs Xs Wife apparently uses her money to make X toe the line. Some second wives may use youthful allure. And there are some second wives who dont want any evidence that they werent there first. Yes, DH should be the one to protect children. Although when he does, I question SMs ability to accept it.

like I said, it's HIS problem. If her money is more important to him than his child, then TOS can't change that. what the bio parents need to do, is accept that they have no control of the other's home. Unless one parent is unfit and a court has supervised visitation or no visitation, they are both "equal" parents.

Of course he should stand up for his kids, but that doesn't make his current wife's verbal abuse excusable. I agree that the fact that he would be out on the street homeless and without a job are not sufficient excuse for tolerating her behavior, but I suspect HE believes he has no choice. This is not a matter of her getting stressed out and yelling - for instance, she yelled at my child in the middle of a restaurant meal about educational choices. And yes, the "ongoing problem" that led to his affair was depression precipitated by the death of a young relative.

Wouldn't encouraging your daughter's step mom to be more involved be in her best interest if the dad is someone that goes from marriage to marriage, cheating on his wives and leaving his children and apparently not fully supporting them either? Why is it good news that he's left another marriage?

Your DD is going off to college and her half brother is only 8 years old but if they were closer in age, it would be better for the children if the mother's to work together so the kids have a closer relationship. You say your ex travels a lot and goes out of the country so his son will live with his mom. JMHO, if your DD had a closer relationship to her SM, instead of being upset her brother is going to live with her, she might go visit him there. When there is a terrible father in the mix, then it should be up to the mother's of his children to work together so the kids at least have each other.

"Good" news was put in quotes. I was being sarcastic.

It may have been meant as sarcastic, but it was followed by:

"That's why Step-parents should not be overly involved with their step children!"

and baby_roses makes a good point. Isn't it better for the kids if the mom & SM get along and work together to raise the kids than being glad your daughter isn't close to hers now that the marriage ended? I'm not saying it's your fault they aren't closer, it sounds like her SM isn't interested in being close? but it would make it easier for your daughter to see her brother when their dad isn't around. My son has a little brother and his dad & step mom are divorced but he still talks to his former step mom because he wants to see his brother and his dad doesn't visit his brother, so the only way my son gets to see or talk to his brother is through his former step mom.

I think it's very important for siblings to see each other, whether they see their parents or not. I've tried to find a way to get my SD to be able to visit her half sister during the week when she is with us, because her mom has stopped picking her up and SD doesn't get to see her sister anymore.

And you dig up the same issue, imamommy, for the same reason again: pick up a fight and give a lecture how things should be? This post was obviously written in the state of pain in my heart for my DD, her brother, my XMIL and XFIL and my X's innocent wife. I was also in fear for my DD's future. It was written on the same day when I found it out, almost 3 months ago. Things settled since. For you to dig it out and analyze it now serves no purpose but cause me more pain.

My DD is 20. she is grown, she does not live neither with me nor with dad. She lives at her college. It is far away from both me and her dad. She is geographically closer to her dad though. She is alternating college breaks. She was here for Christmas break 2 weeks with me and flies to dad in February for a week long break, then I will probably go to her in Easter break and dad will go there in June or vice versa etc, we can't plan that much ahead.

There is no other time when DD can visit SM when dad is not there. When and how do you think she will do it? She also works to help us, espcially dad, with college expenses. She can not go see anybody more often than that.

When she visits dad, she spends time with her brother as well. Because he is with him every weekend and a day during the week, and when DD is there her brother will be with dad the whole week so they can be together. She is on the phone with her brother weekly. DD will see XSM, but there is no time when dad is not there and DD will be with XSM only. Physically and financially it is just not doable.

Stop bringing old posts and giving me lectures how I should do things. I wasn't asking for advice now. It was in November.

First, I'm not picking a fight. and I'm sorry if it causes you pain, that isn't my intention.

It was hurtful for me to hear those words back when you originally wrote it because it's important to me to have a good relationship with my step child. I wasn't trying to drag up this issue, I am only agreeing with someone that brought this back up. It may have been out of line to direct it at YOUR situation, but the point I was making is that sometimes (in other situations) it is the mom & step mom that can make sure the children stay in contact and have a relationship.

I wasn't lecturing you, just having my own opinion. Sorry if you took it that way.