Wow, that's heavy stuff there. I can't imagine ever walking away from my kid BUT I think in both of these cases it is truly a blessing in disguise for both children.

Perhaps now you & SD can develop a solid relationship without all the manipulations and guilt tripping from BM.

And your DS can move on with his life, take his son and raise him without supporting an obvious train wreck of an addict that baits him with her own son. And you can enjoy being "Grandma", spoiling him rotten then sending him home with Daddy :0)

Yes it is awful and sad that these mothers are the way they are. But it would be even sadder if the kids had to have a lifetime of that.

I'm happy for them & you & your son that you can all move on with your lives and just be a family again. You can't make them want to be better mothers. Some people have kids and just don't have a maternal bone in their body. I don't think we'll ever understand it.

((Hugs)) Things are looking up!

~Cat

That's great news about the guardianship! You must feel such a sense of relief.

I wonder if DIL's parents are/were pressuring her to be a "mother", and Grandfather is a bit more pragmatic and realizes that DIL is just not really capable of handling it at this time. I've seen that before, when a young lady gets pregnant and her parents insist that she keep the baby, and not give it up for adoption - yet they do very little if anything to help her. To me, it always seems like the mother and baby are being punished for her "sin" of getting pregnant or something. Do you think DIL was just saying she wanted unsupervised visitation to avoid conflict with her parents, and what she really wants is to just move on with her life?

It's interesting (in a depressing way) that you may be in a position of seeing what happens when a non-caring mother just basically abandons her child (DGS) vs. what happens when a non-caring mother is around just enough to wreak havoc (SD). I have the feeling that DGS may be the one who ends up better off if he just has no contact with his mother, sadly.

You know, a lot of BM's frustration with SD is probably the pre-teen stuff all of us with 11 year olds are going through. But how would she know and why would she care? She doesn't give a rip about SD.

I'm sorry Ima. I know it hurts you to see your SD hurting and not be able to stop the hurt that is coming down the pike. You just have to keep loving her through this; at least that's what I keep telling myself about my SD. Even though it seems to be rejected.

And about your DGS, maybe having his mother "go away" isn't so bad right now. They say the 1st five years of a person's life is so crucial to the forming of their character and such. So maybe not having such a negative influence is the best thing for him right now.

Try to see the silver lining, Ima - these mothers are toxic to their children. The fact that they have both decided to limit the amount of toxicity they spread to their children is good. Maybe this will give you a chance to pick up some of the pieces and help the kids move forward.

I'd like clarification on one thing though.
Did BM outwardly and directly tell SD that she "just gets on her nerves & she just can't take it anymore" etc?
I'd hate to see SD hurt like that, but if she only told you and DH this, she may still be feeding SD some sort of crap about "I want to see you more but your dad and that mean ol' Ima won't let me, blah blah blah."

BM told DH that SD is getting on her nerves & she doesn't think she can take it any/much longer (I may have not gotten the exact words from DH, I wasn't there). I don't know what BM has told SD, but it wouldn't surprise me if she says hurtful things to her. I don't even know if she's playing that angle anymore... saying she wants SD. It was pretty cold what she did/said at SD's birthday party. She showed up 40 minutes late, no gift & stayed in the corner with her BF & baby... then SD got my permission to spend an hour with BM after the party (I thought BM had agreed) and when SD asked her, BM said "no honey, I've got to get the baby home, it's such a long drive... I don't know how HE'S lasted THIS long!", like coming to her party was a major inconvenience. I mean the baby was sleeping the whole time... he was a month old. That was a HUGE eye opener for SD... BM did that right in front of me & MIL.

mattie~ If someone had told me as a young adult, that I would witness so many mother's not parenting their own children, I would not have believed it. I had my first when I was still 17. I made a choice to be a parent. Abortion was legal, I could have chosen adoption (because I am pro-life), but my choice was to be a parent & take the responsibility for my actions, since my child was not planned. I NEVER imagined that dumping my child off on anyone else, including the father, was an option. I was flabbergasted when I met my exBF. HE had three children & their mother had walked out for a new boyfriend. She came to see the kids once or twice a year.. never called or saw them on holidays or birthdays, never bought them anything or paid support. But, then I got a job in social services & then I really saw how many kids are being raised by father's, grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins, siblings, etc. & foster care. and within my own family, I have a couple of female cousins & a sister that left the children to pursue their own life (with or without someone else) but they walked away too. I thought the bonding & love that developed between me & my children when I was pregnant & as they grew up, was something ALL women felt for their offspring. It is somewhat understandable if men don't have that same bonding experience, because they don't physically carry, give birth & nurse the baby. IMO, the maternal instinct is to nurture & protect your offspring & the paternal instinct is to protect & provide for the offspring. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me to comprehend how a mother can not want to nurture her child, but put herself first & use her own child to further her own agenda. and I do think this affects me more because I have my own (deep) issues with my own mother. I was just telling my dad yesterday, that I am 41 years old & still have not given up completely that my mother would be different. I have accepted that we will never have a mother/daughter relationship where we go shopping, get our nails done & have lunch. I've grieved it as it is a loss & have accepted that she isn't that kind of mother, but then again it is something that I hope could happen... even though I know it isn't likely, which is what SD does with her mom.. she knows she isn't getting from her mom what she wants, she just hasn't gotten to the point of accepting that that's the way it is. I think she's getting there & it's a painful journey.. I know because I've been there. That is where all of my anger toward BM three years ago came from... I knew we'd get to this place and it made me angry that I could do nothing about it. I actually feel bad for BM & DIL because they might think they can make up for it later & have that relationship someday... the one my mom once talked about with me, but it never happened because those relationships take time & energy. Those kinds of mothers don't want to invest their time & energy into building it, then wonder what went wrong with it's not there later. I feel sad for BM & DIL that they are missing out on so much with their children... but it's not really about MY feelings.

ima, I admire women who accept the responsibility of raising children under less than ideal circumstances. I sympathize with women who choose to give their children up for adoption. I understand that some women may need some help for a certain length of time, but before and after that are good parents. But I feel nothing but contempt for women (or men) who want to have their cake and eat it too; who don't want the day to day effort of raising and supporting a child but want to retain the privilege of dropping by and playing "Mommy" if and when they choose.

" I actually feel bad for BM & DIL because they might think they can make up for it later & have that relationship someday... " I know what you mean. Some people seem to feel as if their kids will remain in a state of stasis, ready, available and willing, if and when the parent feels ready to, well, parent. And then they are so surprised and resentful to find that their child has bonded with other people; the relatives, foster parents, neighbors, step-parents, or whomever has actually been spending time with the children, day after day after day.

I also have a parent who was less than stellar. In my opinion, it's not easy to push away, ignore or neglect a child to the extent that that child becomes very cautious and guarded around that parent (because kids want so much for their parents to love them, and can overlook some pretty egregious behavior). But once it's done, I think that's very difficult to overcome. I think, as you said, some parents want a relationship - but don't want to put forth much effort at all. And I think that the more time goes by the more and more difficult it will be to forge or repair any bond. Meanwhile every time that the MIA parent decides "Oh, now my kid's out of diapers/in school/a teenager/in college/an adult - now is when I'm going to be at my best as a parent", drops by for a bit, finds it too difficult and retreats again "for now", any chance of a real relationship dwindles even more.

i do admire grandparents like ima who are willing to take kids in if parents are not raising them. I would be terrified if i had to raise a baby right now. i would do it of course if I must, but it would be a big sacrifice.

I think normal situation is for parents to have their kids and raise them, I honestly do not have any special admiration for people who raise their children. that's what they suppose to do. and if one parent is messed up then the other is raising them.

there are a lot of messed up people out there, unfortunatelly many of them have kids and are not willing to raise them, very unfortunate. we can't have mandatory birth control though, until we do (not gonna happen, just talking) we'll have people who won't raise their kids.

i just don't understand why people are not using birth control.