Different states have different rules on how much weight a judge will give to a teenager in deciding whom to ilve with. At 14, most states will allow a child to 'vote with her feet" on that kind of issue, if the child can articulate a good reason for it. Often teenagers wish to change residence, because they love both parents and want to see what it is like on the other side, so to speak. COurts have wisely decided that trying to force a teen to do something they dont wish to do is an exercise in frustration, unless there are really good reasons against it.

Your SD telling you what her BM says, and not openly rejecting the notion of moving, may be her way of telling you that part of her wants to give a try to the other side for a while. Your SD telling you that her BM is pushing her, and at the same time entertaining the idea, may be her way of trying not to hurt you and her father, by blaming it on the BM. ITs very possible that she wants to find out what she is missing, or has missed, by giving the other parent's home a try for a while, but she doesnt want to hurt you by telling you that.

She also may be playing one home off against another, which is very common at that age as well. YOu dont really know what she says about you and your husband when she is at her mothers house.

At 14, she isnt likely to be forced to choose her mothers against her wishes. If it is her wish, and it comes to it, let her go . FIghting wont help keep good feelings going, and in most cases, kids who switch homes want to switch back within a year or two, because they find out the grass isnt always greener.

Teenagers usually get to choose, and to make a court issue out of it when you are likely to lose, will hurt the relationship in the long run.

There really isnt any way to stop the real mom from talking about this with the daughter. And try to rememvber, you dont know what the daughter says to her mom, regarding what you and your husband say/do.

Most importantly of all, dont forget, kids love BOTH parents, and its not a personal betrayal if they want to change for a while

I'm so sorry WiMom --- This is exactly what my Ex did to our son between the ages of 2 and 12, and exactly the issue we faced. I imagine your feelings are similar to my own at that time: anger at the bio parent, fear for my child's well-being, and frustration at the legal system...

My Ex had been diagnosed with Narcisstic Personality Disorder and had been psychologically manipulating our son for years building up to this point. Also, we had seen a few child psychologists over the years to try to resolve some parenting issues -- all of whom were shocked and frustrated by his persistent poor parenting and refusal to change even a little. But despite all of the 'experts', my lawyer advised me that in our state (Texas), that wouldn't be enough to override a child's written statement. And on our son's 12th birthday -- the very first day a child's choice is given legal weight -- Ex presented him with a pre-written legal statement for him to sign. On his birthday! (The poor boy was actually shaking when he came home from his father's that afternoon. I asked if something bad had happened and he couldn't even talk - just hugged me tight and shook. I should have guessed.) He could never have stood up to his father and 'chosen' to live with me, and that's the position his father put him in.

I was able to delay the move for a year, but ultimately, not to prevent it, and now my son has been living with his BioDad and StepMom for a little over 3 years. Fortunately, they live only 2 blocks away so I see my son several times a week, and his StepMother is a kind, loving and sane person, so the psychological harm to my son has been minimal.

The 'good' news as I see it in your case is that your husband has full legal and physical custody. (I had agreed to joint legal, which substantially weakened my legal position.) Also, a judge has already ruled in your favor several times, and there is substantial legal evidence of poor parental judgement. (All of my evidence was confidential medical information and he-said-she-said.) Additionally, I'm guessing you're in another state, and the legal importance of a child's stated wish is given different weight in different states.

But from where I sit now, having lost that battle, I have two suggestions for you. The first is to ask your daughter to write a sealed "to whom it may concern" letter that fully explains what each of her parents has said and done about this issue and her feelings in the matter -- her curiosity, feelings of perhaps being pressured, guilt, ambivelence, etc. If possible, she should state that she doesn't want to choose and would prefer not to be put into a position where she is forced to choose. I would suggest that she give that letter to her guardian ad litum (the attorney who represented her best interests before, and ask that that letter remain sealed unless and until custody becomes an issue again.

The second - and I guess really, it should be done first - is to consult with your lawyer for specific legal advice for your situation and your state.

Beyond that, I'd just keep documenting everything and keep on being the kind of parent she can confide in.

Thank you for the feedback! With our situation, it REALLY is not in the best interest of SD to live with her BM. She is obsessive, and yes, I truly believe she also has Narcisstic Personality Disorder (I'm not saying this out of a dislike for her... but rather out of factual information pertaining to her strange and unusual behaviors... some I have observed and some from what others have observed since long before SD was even born!). To top it off, there are moral issues that we have concern over with BM including her living with her BF (which goes completely against all teachings in our religion).

The issue really comes down to the fact that with the history of SD being pushed and told to "make a decision" for 7 years now... and SD obviously NOT making the decision to live with BM, we feel that at this point if she were to make a statement that she wants to live with BM it would be completely out of exhaustion from the years and years of guilt and manipulation. It is also an issue that BM would NEVER allow her to move back home if she just wasn't happy there. It is really not an issue of "try it out". BM cannot/will not communicate with my husb., so trying to work anything out between the two of them is also not an option.

I guess we will just wait it out and see how things go. This is not something that we bring up and talk about often... it has just been brought to light again in the recent past.

The fact that the mother doesn't share your religious beliefs will be irrelevant in court. Much as I think it is a horrible idea to bring a boyfriend into your house as a mother of a teenage girl, because of the risk of sexual and physical abuse, cohabitation is not illegal in most states. Probably close to half the people on this board are not married to the person with whom they are living.

How on earth did he manage to get full legal custody? That is almost impossible in my state, unless the other parent is an ax murderer.

There is nothing wrong with discussing living arrangements with your child, as long as you tell them the truth about how much input they actually have in the decision - which may be quite a lot, at her age. Your husband has the right to talk to her too.

Why on earth would she not be able to be involved with sports, 4-H, etc.? Every high school has sports, and I know for a fact that you can be a 4-H member no matter where you live in the United States.

"She says the same thing now (just in a slightly different way) that she has said since she was young; she likes it at both places, she "has fun" at both places, etc.... but the big thing is the "guilt" she feels because her BM continues to tell her that she is all she has in the world! Of course, SD is torn because she loves having siblings, she is involved in sports, FFA, 4H, and many other activities in our home and would lose all of that if she were to live with her BM. My hubby and I are stressed over this issue, because BM has had evaluations by psychiatrists, social workers, Guardian ad litems, etc. through the years and many court proceedings, which all say that she has no concept of age-appropriate parenting and that it would NOT be in the child's best interest to live with her...."

My God - these words could have been coming from my mouth. Fortunately, my SD has stayed constant in her desire to live here. After a week of visitation with her mom this last summer she came back saying she couldn't imagine living there. Such relief.

I think the best thing you can do is just continue to support her. You could even start a discussion how how it would be understandable for her to want to try living with her mom . . . what does she think it would be like, what things might have to change, etc. This might be helpful for her to put each home in perspective and see the pro/con to each. It would also be good for her to hear that though her mom only supports the living situation that makes mom happy, you and dad support what would make HER happy. I know one thing we have had to reiterate time and again is that mom's happiness is not her daughter's responsibility - it should be the other way around. We have tried to give her tools to stand up to her mother (and anyone else) in a way that is honest yet respectful.

"Why on earth would she not be able to be involved with sports, 4-H, etc.? Every high school has sports, and I know for a fact that you can be a 4-H member no matter where you live in the United States."
Unbelievably, there are some parents who do not support their kid's participation in these things. In my case, mom does not like having to transport, having her schedule interrupted, having these activities take away from what she might want to do. She does not enjoy her daughter's participation, she resents it.

TOS, in some states, custody will not be given to someone who is living with their boyfriend/girlfriend, if the other parent has a stable married home. Louisiana is one, and so is Alabama. Arkansas has ruled that there are to be no overnight visitations with unmarried people, on the request of one of the parents. So it IS possible to get your religious views taken into account in some states, depending on the judge.

I am probably going to offend about half the people on this board, but I have serious problems with people living with someone else without being married, when they have children already. Thats not a way to foster security in any child.

First... on the BF living with the BM issue; the bigger issue is that the BM "pretends" to have the same religious views as we do! She takes SD to church when SD is with her, etc.... but she LIVES a life completely contrary to the teachings of our church! This cannot be a healthy living situation for anyone! She says one thing, yet lives another.

Pertaining to SD being involved in sports, 4H, and other extracurricular activities... it is not a matter of those things being available in her area, but rather that BM is very possessive of "her" time and I completely believe would not allow SD to be in those activities due to the time it takes away from her. I realize that it is different when SD is just visiting versus when she would be living there, but it is my personal opinion that her personality just would not/could not change that much just because the living situation would be different! BM is encouraging on the surface of SD's activities, but then reprimands my husband for "scheduling" activities during her time, which might mean she would have to come and watch SD in an activity for an hour and then take her for the weekend afterwards!

First off, my husb. has had physical custody of my SD since she was about 4 or 5 years old (she is now almost 14). The original court proceeding was in UT, and he was given physical custody with joint legal; then after a move to MN, we had to take it back to court to fix some things and due to some completely out of control behaviors on BM's part, etc. and some outdated scheduling things, etc. In that court, she lost joint custody and my husb. was awarded FULL LEGAL AND PHYSICAL CUSTODY of SD. This was over 4 years ago now. Our history in different states with different judges, etc. should show that obviously we are not the only ones who feel that SD should not be living with BM!

As much as I would like to support the idea of SD being "allowed" to make a decision to "try it out" at the BM's house, I know that I feel that it would definitely not be a good situation for her in the long run and I know my husb. is completely against it. This is not a control issue, but rather an issue of what is truly in SD's best interest. She is a 4.0 student, very involved in school, church, community, etc. I see that all ending if she were to move in with her BM.

In MN, the childs preference over the age of 12 is given heavy weight and rarely ruled against. You are facing an uphill battle if your daughter decides that she wants to live with her mom.

It sounds as if your daughter doesnt want to move though, and a court ordered guardian ad litem will help your daughter articulate what she really wants, rather than what people are pressuring her to do.

If it comes down to where your daughter decides she wants to live with mom, and means it, there wont be much you can do about it. If she is being pressured into it, then a guardian ad litem and licensed court ordered psychologist should be able to show that.

I know its hard on everyone, and hopefully your daughter wont decide that she wants to go. All I am saying is, if she truly wants to, it will be next to impossible to stop unless mom is a drug addict, or has a history of physical abuse, or is a felon.

Maybe getting her in to see a therapist now will help her sort through what she really wants, and help her to stand up to pressure.

Start saving for a guardian ad litem now. They are expensive, but they are the only ones that can clearly help determine what is in the childs best interest.

"All I am saying is, if she truly wants to, it will be next to impossible to stop unless mom is a drug addict, or has a history of physical abuse, or is a felon."

Well said Kathline --
And that was certainly my experience.

Just my opinion, but if you can insist that a GAL be appointed, that sounds like your best strategy for fighting this thing, if it comes to that...

We have since moved to WI, and when we moved here we had the jurisdiction moved to WI as well. I don't think BM realizes that if she did take it to court that it would be heard in the courts here in WI (even though she was officially notified). Unfortunately, because we do live in a new state... we do not have a current lawyer, we cannot contact and use the same guardian ad litem that dealt with the case before, and have no clue what to expect with the legal system/judges in our county.

We truly hope that this will never go as far as court, but also know that we need to plan as though it would! We have had SD in counseling for many years when she was younger. BM convinced SD that the counselor that SD loved and trusted so much was a liar and manipulator and "turned against mommy in court." So, after years of therapy with that therapist, SD decided she "never" liked that therapist and really did not see a benefit in counseling anyway (we sure saw a lot of benefits before that). Funny thing is, this counselor that "turned against" BM in court had tried along with us for years to try to get BM to come in and join in the counseling sessions, which she refused to do until one time just before court.

To make matters worse... BM went back to school and got a degree in Social Work! This is concerning for us, as we believe she did this for the sole purpose of "getting a foot in the door" of the system and give her the upper hand in a custody hearing. This may sound paranoid, but you would have to understand more about this woman, her personality, and how she does things.

I think I can relate wimom. . . . but my SD's mom fancies herself an expert because she took a psych class in college . . .15 years ago!

If I understand you correctly, the original custody order was made in Utah, but then there was a custody modification in MN, at which time your husband got full custody. There have, to this point, been no modifications going through WI courts?

If that is the case, you may have tranferred the jurisdiction to Wisconsin, but unless the mother agreed IN WRITING, Minnesota still has jurisdiction under the terms of the UCCJEA.All she has to do is notify the WI court that this falls under UCCJEA, and wisconsin must refuse to modify

The rules governing custody when parents live in different states......the last state to make a custody order retains jurisdiction over it until BOTH parents and child have left the issuing state. The mother still lives in MN, where the last modification was done, and as such, she can rightly ask that Wisconsin not hear the case, and Wiscosin will have to comply.

Believe me, i know ALL about interstate custody, and interstate child support. They have rules in there to keep parents from state shopping.

You probably cant file in Wisconsin, much as you would like to, and even if you have already transferred it, the courts in MN will not accept Wisconsin jurisdiction of their order until the mom leaves the state.

I guess the good news is that you can still use the same MN lawyer, and the GAL report should still be good

How on earth did you move out of state twice while still maintaining custody? Did the girl's mother move with you? I wouldn't be able to move to the next state without my exH's permission, even though it's only 10 miles away.

I have done a lot of reading on the interstate thing too. Okay, here's the deal... I had moved to UT from MN with my children (with ex's permission), which is where I met my husb. We were married in UT. Soon after we were married BM started harrassing not only my husb. but made threats to MY children, called my husb. at work making threats, stopped returning SD at end of visits, starting pulling SD out of school "just because", etc., etc. This got out of control really fast! We had started looking into making some modifications and/or contempt of court charges in UT. Our situation changed and we decided to move back to the Midwest (lower cost of living, higher pay, better living environment all the way around)! When we talked to BM about it, she filed some false abuse charges against MY CHILDREN (now that's low) and got a temporary restraining order. We had our day in court, explained our position... she gave her lame stories (that couldn't even possibly have happened and time lines, etc. were not even feasible... LONG story). The judge looked at her and told her to return SD immediately and that she was not to stop our move, and in fact, was restrained from contacting SD for 6 weeks to allow the move and allow SD to adjust to her new surroundings (she was only 7 at the time).

We made the move to MN, fully expecting BM to follow us, which she did... which actually brought her closer to her family, who live on the East coast. That's fine, it honestly was not our intent to "move away" from BM... just provide a better lifestyle for ALL of our children. Okay, so after getting to MN, BM really got out of control... numerous irrational and irresponsible behaviors on her part forced us to finally go for a restraining order. Things were getting bad enough that the judge ordered a 2 year restraining order (they are usually 1 year), and she was only allowed contact during normal visits. Anyway, this story could get really long... but because of continued issues, we had to take it all back to court. There was a guardian ad litem (which BM refused to cooperate with), psych reports, etc. In the MN courts, the judge awarded FULL LEGAL and physical custody to my husb., reduced BM's visitations from the original UT order, and made a few other minor changes. After BM violated court orders and restraining orders, etc. and was found in contempt of court and given a jail sentence (although did not have to serve any actual time), things calmed down for quite a while.

Since then (many years ago now), my husb. went back to school to get a degree doing the work he loves. We looked for jobs in the area and as closeby as we could... and the best job offer came where we are living now, which took us over state lines again and 6 hours away. This time, we were able to get BM to sign an agreement allowing the move, with the understanding that her visitation schedule would not change, and we would all make it work to the best of our ability. Honestly, we had totally expected her to follow again, but she didn't.

If the court proceedings have to stay in MN, that's fine with us. We know the courts there, we know the judges, and have a lawyer in the area. We were just advised to file the paperwork in WI because of the child living in the state of WI. Child support, however, has to stay in MN, because that is where the last order was made and BM still lives in MN.

We have actually considered going back to MN to alleviate all of the traveling for everyone, but the job market is not as good in my husband's line of work, the kids are settled here, and actually the kids have all expressed that they really don't want to move back to MN even if it does mean they are closer to their other parents. They feel they have adequate time with the other parents on their weekend visits, holiday visits, and contact over the phone.

With that kind of history, there shouldnt be a problem with a psych assessment showing your SD feels conflicted about where she should live, and the court would most likely leave her with her father. They would only rule in the moms favour, in a case like that, if your SD were showing a clear preference, without ambiguity. I dont think , given those facts, that you have anything to worry about, but I would still get the SD some counselling now, to help her sort through the conflicting emotions.

WiMom - You might want to check out the book 'Divorce Poison' -- not so much because you're living in it, but because it talks about handlinging Ex's who are behaving badly. You sound like the type of person who always tries to 'take the high road' -- and that's admirable. I try to do the same. But unfortunately, when you're forced into a fight with someone who doesn't fight fair, that can put you at a serious disadvantage.

Imagine if BM's time-frames in her original abuse allegation had been plausible? Imagine if there had been a grain of truth to her stories that could have been proven? You might have had a very different outcome. And now that she has her foot into the door of the legal system, she's all the more dangerous an adversary. She will learn what tactics are most effective, and she won't hesitate to use them against you.

What 'Divorce Poison' does quite well is to explain to the conscientious and responsible parent how to counter-act destructive actions by the other parent, while still behaving in the child's best interests, responsibly and with dignity. So BM is filling SD's head with lies. If you leave them unchallenged, SD may very well believe them! Or believe them partially. Or sort-of believe them. Or question everybody's 'version of the truth' and not know what to believe. 'Divorce Poison' counsels that children need to hear the other side of the story -- an honest but kind and age-appropriate version -- that explains why the other parent is acting the way they are (anger, jealousy, illness) and gives the child a coping mechanism for filtering and interpreting further lies and manipulations.

Children who are never taught about manipulative people are very poorly prepared to defend themselves against them --

Sweeby --

After reading "Divorce Poison" ... I came up with my "lines" I use with the kids....

"Mommy is really angry right now and angry people say and do dumb things" ...

"Mommy should be talking to daddy or another adult about her issues/problems not with you (her children)".

It helped me realize she won't change just have to change the way I deal with her .... yeah I forget at times. But when my bitterness goes away I remember I can't change her no matter what I do ... so suck it up and get over it. I will still complain but at the end of the day I know she isn't going to change but if I don't get it out and "complain" about "it"... I would lose my mind.

Let's just say hypothetically that someone's ex-spouse was wealthy or had connections and was able to manipulate the system to get custody of your child or children. Would you be tempted to do whatever is necessary to keep your child? Wouldn't you even be tempted to take her and disappear? Then your exhusband proceeds to move half way across the country, and you are forced to follow him in order to be able to see your child regularly. Then he moves again, and you consent to driving six hours round trip EOW so that you can see your child. Wouldn't it make sense to go back to college in a field that may help you regain custody? I have heard of women who have lost custody of their children who have gone to law school in order to fight.

If you assume, as I think we must, that the girl's mother believes that SHE should have custody, it seems to me that she is far more conservative in her actions than most people would be. I think if she kept her daughter longer than allowed, or tried to spend time with her when school was in session, her responses were to be expected. I can't imagine how it would feel to have someone take your child away. Any loving mother would panic. From everything you said, this woman is an involved mother who fully exercises her visitation. I am feeling sick just empathizing with this woman.

Though I too can empathize with how hard it would be for any woman to be separated from her child, my primary focus is on the child. There have to be very valid reasons a judge would put a restraining order on a mother for her own child. So perhaps rather than worrying about how t his grown adult is feeling, we should worry about her child.

And TOS, are you saying it's okay for a NCP to keep a child longer than "allowed" (read: court ordered) because they feel like it?

As a mother, I too do understand BM's reasoning behind some of the things she does and can sympathize with her. Yet, at the same time, as a mother I CANNOT understand why she does so many of the other things she does that are so harmful! I love my SD with all my heart, and like any mother will do whatever I can to protect her... and unfortunately, that means that even sometimes I need to help protect her from her own mother. Yes, I would fight for my children with everything I have... BUT, I would not and could not manipulate and use my children the way BM does to get her own way. All too often, it seems that it is more of a power issue than a mothering issue.

My point I was trying to show in explaining some of our story is that obviously when different judges in different states over 10+ years (since the beginning of the divorce) have continued to uphold that SD should NOT be living with BM, there has to be some validity to it, don't you think? Unfortunately, BM has no concept of age-appropriate parenting, is verbally abusive to my husb to the point that there is absolutely no chance of co-parenting, has no concept of following the rules or following court orders, has no respect for anyone else (including SD... she honestly does not care about SD's wishes, schedules, activities, etc.)... it is all about her and her wishes/wants/desires; these are not new issues, but rather have been ongoing even when BM lived 1 block from SD's school! She does not involve herself enough to come to sports games, parent/teacher conferences (not even call the teachers), concerts or other musical performances, etc. Again, I'm talking even when we lived in the same area. We have always (and still do) invite her to everything, give her school information, etc. Although, she will come to WI to visit for the weekend IF her boyfriend wants to visit his parents... so, she can make the drive for the BF but not her own daughter???? (she actually drives 1 hour MORE to get to BF's parent's house than to where we live).

There is a lot of history here.... We are struggling financially and have NO influence on "the system"... we are still paying for the last court battle from 4 years ago! So, obviously, there are reasons why DH was awarded FULL LEGAL custody of a little girl other than money and influence, right?!

I can see by your post that you have let TOS get under your skin. You shouldnt. From reading past posts, I have noticed that no matter what, TOS will always go to the defence of the bio mom. Instead of being offended, it helps to look at it as educational. It helps to develop empathy. This way, the stepmothers on here get a glimmpe into how the real mom may be thinking.

All of these stories have two sides, and I am sure if the bio mom were in here telling hers, it would be very different from yours. I am not trying to be insulting - hey, the real mom of my husbands children has done a lot of very bizarre things as well, including BITING her child from shoulder to arm for lying about homework ( the school called CPS after seeing the bite marks) .

Ask my husband about his ex and he will say she is an angry , raging , hateful person who screams yells, and intimidates anyone who doesnt bow to her wishes.AS her about my husband, and she will say he is a cold heartless b#stard who is constantly critical of her parenting skills, who thinks she cant do anything right.

I KNOW my husband is nothing like the way his wife describes him, even though when we first got together, I was more than willing to take everything she did through the filter of his opinion of her. So, if she is wrong about my husband, perhaps he is also wrong about her? we tend to see people through filters... through the way other people have interpreted their behaviour, and through our own biases.

Which of course is why TOS can only see good in a bio mom and someone like Cawfee can only see bad.

I am not really sure what the point of my post here is, other than to reassure you tht you shouldnt let what someone else says here get under your skin. You alone are living YOUR situation, and opinions are like as@holes, everyone has one, but the only one that matters is yours.

Or, as one of my gfs put it yesterday....Its all mind over matter. I dont mind cuz you dont matter :)

I would find it a very interesting read if my SC's mom posted here.

Yes to get her version of her relationship with her children through her words.

If I remember right there is only one BM who does not have custody that posts (sweeby?) I could be wrong. But BM & SM are amicable ... I am sure they have their moments.

Difference is TOS and KKNY are involved mothers. At times a twisted sense of real world. but still involved.

LOL!! I think I'm going to start a list of the clever pick-me-ups that I learn on this forum!!

Yup - That's me...
Anyone else a non-custodial BioMom?
And I'm a good Mom, too -- I swear!
Even my parole officer says how great a mom I am!

Just kidding!

I was until the start of this school year. He lived with his dad visited on weekends, until he started HS. Switched to go to HS here better school. Now he goes to dad's on weekends.

No long drawn out court case ... I called ex said I was getting married and moving if son could live with him and finish middle school great if not thats ok too continued with when he starts HS he will come live with me.

Sweeby--I didn't mean to imply you were not involved ... sorry.

I can understand your position ... easier to let the child go/be than fight the ex over it. The only one who suffers is the child.

LOL!! Sweeby, that was great!!

Actually, it wasn't at all easy to let him go... But when even your own lawyer tells you that you can't win, then it's time to listen.
But I was able to get some safeguards written into the renegotiated agreement that were important to me to assure DS would be OK -
regular counseling and on an 'as needed' basis, with the counselor or doctor having the final say if the parents disagreed.

But best of all -- Things haven't gone to you-know-where. (One of the reasons I've grown to appreciate his StepMom so much.) Yes, there have been some ups and downs, but hey - DS is a teenager. And he's seeing some things I wish he didn't have to see, including some pretty questionable behavior from his father. But - That's who his father is, and perhaps DS will be better off from having NOT been as sheltered as I was. And DS has shown he's able to form his own opinions as to what's right and wrong.

Interestingly, I just found out that Ex hasn't had "the talk" with DS yet - and DS is 16! Fortunately, I have - an ongoing dialog for 3+ years. But it's not the same, and as a mom, there's a perspective I just can't have. So I told him I'd call his dad to discuss it, which sent him into a panic! He said he understands all of the biology, and that we'd fully covered the philosophy and morality and consequences, and that his dad couldn't talk about things like that at all, and please, please, please not to call him. Anyone think I have to?

"BM has no concept of age-appropriate parenting"

What exactly does that mean? Did she leave her home alone at the age of 6?

I am a little confused - you said she isn't involved with her daughter, but yet she is willing to regularly drive three hours each way to pick her up for visitation?

Sweeby,

What else is there if you've covered biology, philosophy and morality? If you can find zoologist Desmond Morris' videos, "The Human Animal - The Biology of Love," and the series "Human Sexes," they cover more than you could imagine.

In my opinion, colored as it may be, involved is more than a EOW visitation. Would you call your EH involved because he takes the kids to Micky D's, TOS?

Involvement, to me is interest in your child's whole life, not just their life EOW. It's caring about their plays, games, schoolwork, awards, etc. enough to put aside what other plans you may have to be a part of these milestones and accomplishments. Involvement is also being selfless enough to put make your child's needs and feelings the top priority.

My SD's mom exercises every visitation with her. She comes to the games that happen on her weekends as she has to get SD there (and then sits in the car because she's cold), hasn't made a conference or asked about grades in a year (since she remarried & had another kid, hmmmm) gone to any school activities, met any of SD's friend's parents, etc. Does that make her an truly involved parent, or a parent that is only interested when SD is there and it's convenient?

Winmom, I swear this biomom must have had twins - one ended up with me and the other with you - as I swear we could be talking about the same person. It's almost scary.

Kathline - very well written post. When I take off my "bad BM glasses" I see things through your eyes and recognize there is much truth to what you say. But the temptation to but the "bad" glasses back on is so great . . . .

And sweeby . . . so glad your P.O. has gotten to know you so well!! :-)

Apparently other people consider my exH involved, based on his weekly trips to McD's. If he actually exercised EOW visitation and two weeks in the summer, then I think I would consider him involved.

I think a lot of NC parents avoid involvement in the activities that the CS has scheduled or that happen during the time the CP has the kids, considering them "her" or "his" activities rather than the child's. I know my exH does this, even with activities in which he used to be involved or agrees are good for the kids. Unfortunately this generally applies to college as well - since they, rather than he, selected their colleges, he doesn't seem inclined to contribute.

As far as the statement I made about BM having "no concept of age-appropriate parenting"; well, actually, she left SD home alone at the age of 2 (because she was taking a nap and BM wanted to go visit some friends and not wake her up.... DH just happened to call home and SD answered the phone crying and scared.... DH rushed home, which took him approx. 25 mins, BM was STILL NOT HOME... no clue how long she had already been gone, didn't come home for another half hour... so we are talking about leaving a 2 yr. old home alone for well over an hour!!!). There are many, many issues with her parenting and inappropriate choices, things she has exposed SD to over the years, the people and places, etc.... but I am not going to go into all of that.

I don't actually recall saying she is not involved. She is involved as long as it directly benefits her. She has her regular visits and calls a couple of times a week. She over does it with gifts, activities, parties, etc. when SD is with her (my opinion, trying to buy her off or convince her how much better life is with her....) She does not, however, contact the school, talk to teachers, seldomly attends concerts, games, etc. (even when we lived in the same area), chose not to participate in counseling with SD even though invited over and over by DH and the therapist for over a year (finally went to 1 counseling session just before court), refuses to allow SD to participate in activities that fall on BM's weekend and has only allowed us to switch a weekend a couple of times when SD has gone to her in tears begging. Constantly is complaining about SD's activities that she is involved in because they MIGHT interfere with one of her weekends now and then. She fails to see the benefits for SD in the activities that she is involved with... and my DH has ALWAYS offered to switch a weekend when there is a conflict, has NEVER asked BM to give up any time for SD's activities, just rearrange them... but this does not directly benefit BM, so usually the answer is NO WAY with the only explanation being "it's my time and I don't have switch it if I don't want to!"

There are a lot of dynamics to all of this that it is difficult to explain here. All in all, it is just a very difficult situation.

I know that my ex husband has considerable complaints when the kids want to do things that arent planned out by him during their visits. My thirteen year old often wishes to visit his friends living close to my ex during part of his visits with the ex. His father gets very upset because its HIS time, and he doesnt want to share my son with anyone. It annoys my son. At 13, his friends are an important part of his life. My ex husband doesnt understand that you have to adapt your plans to change as the child grows and becomes more independant, and its a source of tension between him and my son.

But, if it were me, and I were seeing my son one long weekend a month , half of vacations and half the summer, I think I would probably want to spend every minute with the child too. I dont think you can fault the ex, or in your case the bio mom, for wanting to spend that time with their child, since they dont get to have them on a daily basis like we do. I do wish they would try to understand what the child wants though. Forcing teenagers into anything rarely works.

As for me, I do not schedule things for my son during my ex husbands time because it is HIS time, and he deserves the chance to parent as much as I do. I am just the lucky one because I have custody, but my children are still every bit as much his as mine.

I have, however, gently tried to point out to the ex that he needs to be a little more flexible with teenagers, lest he drive them away.

My H rarely has contacted the school or talked to teachers except during the IEP meetings. The teachers would first have to check that the paperwork was in place to allow them to share information with him. I go to back to school nights, etc., but I don't contact the teachers unless there is a problem - and the problems would rarely be something that the NCP would even know about - I am not going to call him up and tell him every time a child forgets to cover her math book with a paper bag, or has trouble with the homework assignment.

I guess I'm still not explaining the situation quite right... We would definitely never purposely schedule something on BM's weekends. I do completely understand that BM has limited time with SD. However, for example... SD is involved in volleyball. This is a 3 month activity. It just happened that 1 game fell on BM's weekend. BM threw a fit and went on an on about not "scheduling" things on her weekend (???? how did WE schedule it on HER weekend???). She refused to come to WI for the visit that 1 weekend, watch the game for an hour, and then have SD for the rest of the weekend. She was notified about this 1 month in advance, so plenty of time to plan ahead. SD is part of a team, and therefore is expected to be at all of the games. We had to explain the situation to the coach, who was luckily understanding and allowed her to miss the game.

Other instances include things like daughter being in 4H. This is a year-long activity. The county fair is when a child gets recognition for programs, projects, and animals they have been working with all year. BM has an absolute fit every year because the fair tends to fall on her weekend.... again, stating DH cannot schedule things on HER weekend???? These are things that are ongoing and that we have no control over. SD is in band; every year there is a solo and ensembles competition... sometimes it falls on BM's weekend. This would be something that SD has worked on for 6 months!!!!

These are just a few examples of the kinds of things that we cannot control the scheduling of, SD has worked on for months and months.... and it just happens that they might fall on BM's weekend here and there. Instead of being proud of SD and finding this as an opportunity to use to see SD accomplishments and be there for some of these events, she makes a big deal out of it, and even made SD miss her volleyball game because she would not switch the weekend OR come to watch the game and then take SD afterwards.

It is just frustrating because I also have an X, although he is very willing to work around kids' schedules. To him, it doesn't matter when they come, just that they come... As he says, it is the same amount of time either way. We have tried to explain this to BM, but she just doesn't get it. Why must it be so difficult to allow your children to be involved in good, wholesome activities as teenagers? No one has ever asked BM to GIVE UP any of her time, just occasionally rearrange it or even come and watch and participate in SD's activities, in fact has been invited to come for a visit on DH's weekend, just to include her in SD's activities. I really believe it comes down to an issue of power.... She believes that she must have all control over everything that happens on HER weekends, no matter what!

Winome, I think that you and your DH moving hours away has exascerbated this situation. Are you asking the mother to drive all 6 hours, not just 1/2 way, because of these activities?

What I'm trying to explain is that even when BM lived a block from the school, and at another time in the same town... she would not come to SD's activities even though DH always invited her. She would complain and argue even back then if something happened to fall on her weekend and would either not allow SD to participate (remember she lived right there) or would make it a HUGE deal to switch the weekend. This is even when she just needed to pick SD up an hour later due to a cheerleading workshop that she had been in all week long and the last class ended an hour past BM's time to pick her up for the weekend. DH asked BM if she would like to just go watch that day and then pick her up... then she was more than welcome to have an extra hour at the end of the weekend to make up the time. Once again, she threw an absolute FIT... so does this mean that your children cannot participate in anything if 1 hour of a week-long program will interfere with THEIR time????

Yes, now she has to drive 6 hours to come to any activities. I do completely understand her not coming. I do not, however, understand or agree with telling SD she will come to parent's night or "I'm going to come to as many of your games as I can this year..." etc. and not only NEVER come to a single one, but when given the opportunity by having a game fall on her weekend.... that she still didn't come and refused to allow SD to play in that game.

I completely understand also that 6 hours is a LONG way to come to a game or to the fair! But, as I have explained before, BM and BF will make the drive (including an additional hour) if they feel like visiting his parents but will not make the drive to visit her daughter????? In fact, SD has been to BF's parents' home during holidays when BM decides to come to WI, and everyone gets along very well and SD loves to go there.

We are only talking 2-3 times a year! The bigger issue is that when things do happen to fall on BM's weekend she refuses to work with SD's schedule and will not budge on switching the weekend to allow SD to participate in these things. It is not an issue of her not coming (unless she says she is going to, then doesn't) but rather an issue that she WILL NOT be flexible at all. Remember... DH is not asking her to give up anything, but just be flexible and rearrange a weekend here and there.

So what ever happened to the "best interest of the child?" Does this only apply during DH's time????

Sadly enough, sometimes it seems to. There are some parents who seem to believe that they are doing what is best for their child by doing what is best for themselves.

MY SD's mom used to pitch the same fits - and she lived 10 minutes away. Rather than viewing SD's activities and a growing experience for SD and a chance for her to get involved in her daughter's life she saw them as an inconvenience during HER time. Everything has always been HER time and DAD's time - never SD'S time.

This past summer SD had a mandatory clinic for a sport that fell on a weekend w/ mom. Mom had been told of this months in advance, but planned for the family to go out of town with her because she had a work conference. When she told us about this trip a week before it we reminded her of the clinic. SD was in a panic as she HAD to be at this clinic to participate. After much fighting mom told her she could stay with us . . . without asking us first. We had made our own plans to leave town for the weekend because SD was to be with her mom. Long story short we cancelled our trip, mom went on hers and SD stayed with us. The guilt her mom gave her was outrageous. She was told she "ruined their vacation", she was a "selfish little brat", she "only thinks of herself" . . . all this because she missed a trip mom scheduled AFTER being told of the clinic.

It is actually written into the parenting agreement that outside of an emergency SD has to be available for participation in her activities.

I have mentioned to DH many times that he NEEDS something in his CO stating that BM cannot interfere with certain of SD's activities, just so that she can be allowed to participate in normal, healthy activities. I cannot recall the name of the book at the moment, but one of the Co-Parenting, post divorce, books talks about how important it is for children to have their OWN activities and their OWN friends and how important it is to their overall development. It also talks about the parent who always looks at everything as "my time" is a high conflict person and usually very difficult to coordinate things with (which is exactly what we deal with).

I like the way you worded it... to BM everything is HER time or HIS time. The only time SD has her "own" time is when she is with us, because we allow it. My DH works all week, sometimes very long hours, and the only real time he has with SD is on the weekends also, yet you won't see him whining and throwing a fit because SD has something else she needs or wants to do on "his" weekend!

We have also had similar issues like the one you described. It is just so unfair to the children that they have to be put in the middle of all of this!

There is nothing we can ever do to change BM's way of thinking.... so we just have to continue to try to make the best of a difficult situation. We will continue to fight for SD's rights whenever necessary, and choose our battles!