I think you should talk to DH. I think the parent, you, should be the only one to determine punishment and rules. In some cases the Stepparent can implement, etc., but I question your DHs judgement. does he have children??

I didn't know people grounded six year olds. Six year olds are little more than preschoolers (some of them are preschoolers). They are not supposed to have any common sense. Only punishment that occurs immediately, like a time out chair, has any effect whatsoever.

I agree, I think unless the child is in immediate danger, or being completely disruptive and Bio parent is not there (ie. S-parent has care of child for day)any punishment should come from Bio parent.

Now about rules, I think house rules should be decided together by spouses but if you hve one spouse that is not a bio-parent I think it could be difficult for them to discern what is normal kid behavior vs. naughty behavior.

Because our kids were older DH & I agreed to not parent each others kids but be there for them as a friend and to guide. Unfortunately DH was not able to stick with our agreement and was constantly on my son's butt for every little thing-and I mean everything from the way he dressed to him liking skateboarding, it was awful and therefore they now have no relationship at all.

Letting you DH dish out enforcements out of frustration especially to such a young child is setting them both up for a relationship based on resentment. I think family counseling would be a MUST & pronto in order for you all to learn coping skills as a blended family.

For now, think your DH needs to back off and let you handle the disciplining of your DD. She is very young and I am sure he does not want to end up with her resenting & mostly fearing him.

~Cat

TOS said: "They are not supposed to have any common sense."
What a bunch of horse hooey!
6yos can and should have some common sense, because their grown-ups should have taught them some (basic things like don't run out into traffic, tell the truth, or the dog might bite you if you are mean to it) I'm not saying they should never slip up or that they don't need adults to guide them and help them, just that they should have a few basics down by age six.

IMO, lying should have some consequences... But for a 6yo, I think grounding might be too far removed from the act of lying. And depending on the lie, probably too severe. I think "go to your room" while you and DH decide what to do, followed by a serious talk, and maybe something like TV is off for the rest of the afternoon, or apologize to anyone the lie affected.

I am going to give your DH the benefit if the doubt here, and assume that he was concerned that you are bothered by DD's bad behavior and wants to see it get dealt with for your sanity and DD's best interests... but he probably shouldn't have spoken first, and you should have probably asked DD to leave the room before you and DH disagreed about her discipline.
IMO, you and DH need a "discipline plan" and to stick to the roles you have decided on.

You can tell kindergarteners over and over not to run out into traffic, and they can undoubtedly parrot the rule back to you, but you don't let them cross a street alone because they are just too little to be depended on to have good judgment. Sure they have learned some cause and effect - by 18 months or so my kids knew not to touch a hot stove or the electric fence, but I wouldn't want to count on that knowledge transferring to new situations. As to lying, children typically begin to understand that lying is wrong between about six and eight years old.

Children develop at widely differing rates, and even the same child can develop at different rates depending on what aspect we are talking about. You don't panic if your 7 year old hasn't lost any teeth yet - why are they all expected to act in a certain way by a certain age?

Ceph I am with ya! My 6yr old has plenty of sense! So either he is a genius, or some people just do not expect a lot from their 6 year olds.

When we bike ride he knows to stop before the end of each sidewalk. If he is playing catch with other kids and the ball goes in the street he knows not to go get it. And he does not really lie because we have taught him that you get farther with the truth. I do not think 6yrs old is too young to have sense. And I have grounded my 6 yr old from things he likes to do for a day when needed.

For instance he loves to play the Nintendo Wii. He also had been going through a phase where he cries when he does not get his way. So we tell him if he is crying over nonsense like not getting what he wants then he is not big enough to play the Wii. His crying has lessened. (Of course this does not apply if he cries because he got hurt.)

Do you let him cross the street by himself? Use the stove? Do you leave him home alone? Do you let him surf the Internet unsupervised? I assume not, because children that age can not be depended on to use good judgment in new situations for which they have not been prepared, or for which they do not know a rule. It has little to do with intelligence - I am sure all of us know very intelligent people who have no common sense.

Anyone who has ever watched Rescue 911 back in the old days, or who ever reads the newspaper, or observes the kids in my neighborhood, knows that six year olds can not be depended on to use good judgment. I will never get the picture out of my mind from Rescue 911 of a little boy of around six riding his ATV right off a retaining wall and having it land on him. (Not that the parents used good judgment either, in letting him ride it in the first place).

"Do you let him cross the street by himself? Use the stove? Do you leave him home alone? Do you let him surf the Internet unsupervised?"

He is not old enough to go anywhere unsupervised so of course he does not cross the street alone or stay home alone. He does surf the internet alone. He has a few sites where he plays games and he knows how to go to them. We have talked about internet safety and to never give your name or address or phone number on it.

He does know how to use to stove. He loves to cook and he has made soup on the stove without help. Since he is never home alone we knew what he was doing but I did not need to stand over him, I just stay nearby and he has never had a problem.

It is true all 6 year olds can not use good judgement, but I do not think it is fair to say all can not.

I think maybe because our 6 year old has 3 older siblings he may be a bit more advanced because he has so many role models that he has observed using common sence and good judgement. I do have friends with one child and at that age their child was very babied and never did anything for themself so of course they could not make good judgements. But I do not think it is fair to say that 6 is to young to learn good judgement.

I still think concensus is parents should decide punishment, steps should at most implement. Sounds to me like DH has a lack of control issue also. He needs to discuss with you first, in private. If he wont agree to this, BIG PROBLEM

"I still think concensus is parents should decide punishment, steps should at most implement. Sounds to me like DH has a lack of control issue also. He needs to discuss with you first, in private. If he wont agree to this, BIG PROBLEM "

"IMO, you and DH need a "discipline plan" and to stick to the roles you have decided on. "

Agree with both of these points. And think it will be much less friction between you & DH if you two can pick somewhere quiet, discuss and come to agreement with no kids present. Pick a "code" word so if either of you feels the situatin is getting out of control you can say "kitchen" or whatever and it will be a cue for you to bth step away and discuss instead of things escalating.

Think your DH will feel much better about all this and where he stands and what his role is to be in helping raise your child. He is probably a bit upset/unsure of himself as a SDad too.

Good luck & don't hesitate for family counseling if needed, your marriage is still new & fresh. Plenty of time for you to get things together and situated and have a happy life together.

~Cat

I dont see SDad as unsure -- agree he was upset. But yes good luck.

I guess we are really cruel parents but our 6 year old (first grader) was grounded for the weekend for refusing to listen to mom.. flat out refusing. She understood what she was doing... she received and dealt with her punishment and we havent had that issue since.

I think you definately shouldnt have said no when DH handed down a punishment. But, I think you realize that. And unlike popular opinion on here I dont think that only parents should decide discipline and sp should at most implement. I have handed down discipline plenty and have always been backed up and have always backed up my DH...even BM has always backed us up
(and vice versa) and enforced punishments. If any of us ever has a problem we talk about it later outside of the kid's ears...every once in a while the person handing down punishment realizes they were in the heat of the moment and then that person goes and talks to the kid. More times than not though we end up saying something like okay I see your point and we'll go this way but if this doesnt work I want to try something else next time. (if we really just dont necessarily agree) I think it goes a long way to respect the other persons jugdement, authority and giving the person the benefit of the doubt that they trying to do their best for the child while leaving things open enough to discuss other possibilities. I mean we are trying to mix three different personalities, experiances, and own personal values on child rearing.... there are bound to be disagreements on what each of us thinks is appropraite but I think in that one department we have done very well coparenting with each other (sm/me) included. And I would say overall we have so far raised very well mannered well behaved kids (we get problems... I mean all kids have their moments but overall..)

"He is not old enough to go anywhere unsupervised"

So if his judgment is so good, why is he not allowed to go anywhere unsupervised? Why do you not leave him home alone, cooking away?

I am certainly not recommending that you do any of these things, because they would most likely constitute neglect - because SIX YEAR OLDS DO NOT HAVE THE JUDGMENT NECESSARY TO BE SAFE ALONE!!!

I don't think six year olds should be using the stove, especially if the adult is more than six inches away and/or distracted. Nor do I think they should be using the Internet unsupervised.

You can teach rules, but you can't teach common sense. Common sense is something that comes with maturity and experience.

TOS I think your being a little rough. My dd and sd were both developing some pretty good common sense by 6. While I did not let them do cooking unless I was right there they knew how to do many other things. They also knew what not to do in many instances. And surfing the internet alone to play games at 6 is not a big deal because it is not like they are in chat rooms talking to strangers or entering personal info. I think your not giving 6 yr olds enough credit. And if you do not give 6 year olds chances to use common sense and teach them from those experiences than they will not learn it.

As for punishments I do think the dh was too harsh in this case and op mentioned that. I think that every household is different in what works for disciplining and who should do it. In our house me and dh both do discipline both girls if we feel they need it. He can discipline my dd and I could discipline my sd. We consider ourselves one family unit instead of two seperate families co-existing under the same roof.

I have no problem with a six year old playing on webkinz or neopets, but I think it is absolutely essential to supervise them. If they are "surfing the Internet" it is all too easy for them to accidentally end up someplace that you don't want them to be - looking up the Whitehouse and using .com instead of .gov, or leaving out one crucial letter in "public library" are two common examples.

First and foremost, you keep your child safe. If you want to teach them to cross the street, you ask them to tell you when they think it is safe to cross, while holding onto their hand. You don't tell them to cross the street and just hope they make it safely. There were lots of tasks my children could do by six - feeding their animals, getting ready for school, in some cases changing their toddler siblings' diapers - but you don't put a six year old in a new situation where lack of common sense is going to endanger him or someone else.

In that ATV example, it had never occurred to the parents that the boy would ride off the retaining wall. It was of course obvious to them that the ATV would flip. Unfortunately, the six year old didn't realize that.

Silversword.....Yes it is difficult to co parent. Especially when one is not the birth parent. In our house I am the one who has the most experience in raising kids. Not bragging and not saying that I don't have room for improvement. My DH has never raised kids before. This is his first time. He doesn't get it sometimes. Example....10 year old DD (his) has made a friend in the neighborhood. He lets her go over whenever she asks to. Doesn't give her a time to come home, doesn't get their phone number or give them ours, doesn't pay attention that she is going over at lunch time or supper time, doesn't pay attention that she is riding her bike with friend in the street (which we don't allow because of busy intersection) so on and so forth. I tell him that you have to understand there is an edict of some sort when visiting at someones home. It's time to teach her to be considerate of the time, how many times she has gone over there in one day, give her a time to come home so that she can learn that part of it and so on. I just had to remind her Saturday that she is not allowed to ride her bike in the street. She has to wear her tennis shoes, not flip flops and her helmet. If she needs reminding again it will be that she will not be riding her bike while she is over there.

I started talking about common sense with her about a year ago. She is a gifted student but has been pretty spoiled with the attitude that if she wants to do it, if it's fun, why not. I'm not that way with her and Dad is seeing, now that she is getting older, that the way she was taught before isn't really the best way.

Lying is something that we have had to work with. When catching her in the first one we talked about it. When the next one happened we reminded her of our previous conversation and let her know that from now on she would be punished. At 6 I don't think I would ground a child but if it was a constant problem there would be a punishment.

At the age of 6 they are still learning. You constantly are reminding them. Some things you constantly remind them of even a 16 ( DS's age ) It's just a reinforcement of what you expect. My deal with young kids is that there is a learning time, a knowing time and a doing time. We're teaching you this because you didn't know it...you know what is right you're expected to do it..... you didn't choose what was right which means you chose to disobey therefore you will have a consequence. Each kid is different in their level of emotional maturity but that doesn't mean that you don't teach.

DH probably was mad and jumped into it too quickly. You jumped in to defend what you thought was an injustice. Pretty common....no big deal, IMO this time.

"DH probably was mad and jumped into it too quickly. You jumped in to defend what you thought was an injustice. Pretty common....no big deal, IMO this time."

I totally agree. It was a mistake on both of your parts. Maintaining the united front is the best way. Maybe just let it go for now. DD probably didn't even notice.

"DH probably was mad and jumped into it too quickly. You jumped in to defend what you thought was an injustice. Pretty common....no big deal, IMO this time."

Yup, me too. Just sit with DH & come up with a same plan you both agree on. Wanted to comment on this:

"But, I think you realize that. And unlike popular opinion on here I dont think that only parents should decide discipline and sp should at most implement. I have handed down discipline plenty and have always been backed up and have always backed up my DH...even BM has always backed us up
(and vice versa) and enforced punishments. If any of us ever has a problem we talk about it later outside of the kid's ears...every once in a while the person handing down punishment realizes they were in the heat of the moment and then that person goes and talks to the kid."

If you are both able to come to agreement on *how* to parent & discipline yours & his children I agree with this also. I was speaking (in my earlier comment) from my perspective and wasn't as fortunate to have this experience as DH & I have polar opposite parenting styles, so we could only agree to not parent each others children. Of course, they were older too.

So take from it what you will. If you cannot come to agreement on parenting style then I think you'll have to go to family couseling and find other ways to cope/deal with situations as they arise.

But you are a young couple with young children, again plenty of time to work it out successfully if you are both on the same page and have the same wants.

~Cat

KKNY "I think you should talk to DH. I think the parent, you, should be the only one to determine punishment and rules. In some cases the Stepparent can implement, etc., but I question your DHs judgement. does he have children??"

I did talk to DH. I disagree that parents are the only ones to determine punishment and rules. Usually we decide together. This was just one of those times that happen in a relationship. It would happen, I'm sure, whether we were her birth parents or step parents. And yes, he does have a child, a daughter age 8.

TOS: "I didn't know people grounded six year olds. Six year olds are little more than preschoolers (some of them are preschoolers). They are not supposed to have any common sense. Only punishment that occurs immediately, like a time out chair, has any effect whatsoever."

Ummm. My daughter hasn't been in preschool in two years. She's in first grade. She has tons of common sense, maybe because I expect her to have common sense and use it. And she understands completely what grounding is, and it has a big effect on her. For us, grounding is no TV and no playing with the neighbors. She's received that as a punishment for 1 or 2 years now. Time out chair? Not my style- have tried it with her, but it's not as effective as taking away her priveleges.

Mom2emall:
"And I have grounded my 6 yr old from things he likes to do for a day when needed. For instance he loves to play the Nintendo Wii. He also had been going through a phase where he cries when he does not get his way. So we tell him if he is crying over nonsense like not getting what he wants then he is not big enough to play the Wii."

This is exactly the kind of "grounding" I'm talking about. No TV, etc. Not "to your room and don't come out for the weekend".

Maybe I could have been more clear. My main point was that co-parenting is hard!

TOS: "Do you let him cross the street by himself?"

Yes, I do. Every day when we walk home from school. She crosses three streets by herself. I stand behind and let her evaluate when it is safe. How else do you teach them to cross?

"Use the stove?"

Yes, she makes eggs, stirs soup, etc. I am with her in the kitchen, but I do let her use the stove. And it's gas, with open burners.

"Do you leave him home alone?"

No, it's illegal and I feel innappropriate.

"Do you let him surf the Internet unsupervised?"

Yes, we put internet controls to keep her from innappropriate content. She goes to her websites unsupervised.

Thank you! I was just venting that it's hard to co-parent, not that it's harder on me than him or vice versa, or that I felt his punishment was wrong. I did think it's a little harsh, but I'm a softie too, and will let more go. But I think most often he is correct in nipping the behavior in the bud. If we deal with the little lies now, we can prevent the bigger ones later. Example of her "lies" or "convenient forgetting of the truth":

DD: Can I have a snack?
Mom: what did you have for lunch today?
DD: I can't remember.
Mom: Ok, well when you remember, let me know, and we'll have a snack.
DD: I had chocolate milk and a brownie.
Mom: Did you really not remember? Or did you just not want to tell me?
DD: I didn't want to tell you.
Mom: I'll be more mad if you lie than if you tell the truth. No wonder you're hungry and can't remember, you didn't eat any brain food today! No snack, you can wait for dinner.
DD: Mom! I remembered! I had chicken nuggets and fruit.

Of course this was over the course of an hour or two. I won't give her snacks after school (snacks meaning crackers, etc... I will feed her "real food" like carrot sticks) if she doesn't eat her lunch. And I erased this issue completely after she kept only selecting junk food at lunch by having her take home lunch.

This is not a giant deal. It's just the day to day "let's see how far I can push it" that kids do.

"And unlike popular opinion on here I dont think that only parents should decide discipline and sp should at most implement. I have handed down discipline plenty and have always been backed up and have always backed up my DH...even BM has always backed us up (and vice versa) and enforced punishments."

This is what we do too. I think that he is a good influence on my daughter and he has very good morals and judgements. I think if the rule was that only I parent my children and you parent your children that would make a really big "us/them" rift and we'd never be a whole family. I think presenting a united front is best. But, even in bio-families presenting a united front does not always happen. I know, because I have been in one. My ex-h and I would constantly disagree on the best ways to handle a situation. Now, her bio-dad pretty much always backs us up as well. It takes a village.

I think you are being unreasonable expecting a child to remember what he or she had for lunch. You can have a snack or not (but at least fruit or carrots, I would hope, even if she did have lunch). When you have unreasonable expectations, children will lie. What I have said is you should make rules, instead of DH.

Believer, Ashley...

" It was a mistake on both of your parts. Maintaining the united front is the best way. Maybe just let it go for now. DD probably didn't even notice."

DD didn't notice. And it wasn't anything we had to let go, or even really talk about. It just happened. And as soon as I said it I wanted to "open mouth, insert foot". I felt so silly. Because I didn't need to "defend" her, she wasn't being injured. We're afraid that if she keeps not paying attention she will be injured though, which is why we're right on top of her when she's spacing out.

Thank you for not making this into a giant issue, because it wasn't. I was just thinking... oh my, it is so hard to co-parent. And that's with anyone! Bio-parents, step-parents, grand-parents, aunts, uncles... Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't!

Have any of you ever stepped in when something is going on with a kid who is not "yours"? It can go really good or really bad. I used my "gruff" voice with the neighbors nephew because he kept running up against her on his bike while we were walking. She said stop a few times, he didn't, so I got down to his level (he's five) and held his bike handles so he couldn't go anywhere and told him he can't treat his aunt that way. He stopped, she was grateful. But it's a toss-up. You never know how it's going to turn out!

KKNY, you wrote:
"I think you are being unreasonable expecting a child to remember what he or she had for lunch. You can have a snack or not (but at least fruit or carrots, I would hope, even if she did have lunch). When you have unreasonable expectations, children will lie. What I have said is you should make rules, instead of DH."

First of all, if you read my post a little further you will see I wrote that "I won't give her snacks after school (snacks meaning crackers, etc... I will feed her "real food" like carrot sticks) if she doesn't eat her lunch. And I erased this issue completely after she kept only selecting junk food at lunch by having her take home lunch."

So, it's not an issue of feeding her. It's an issue of piling junk food on top of junk food. And I solved the issue completely by sending her with home lunch instead of allowing her to eat school lunch. This one issue was an example of the little ways she tries to get around the truth. It's not that big of a deal, (like most issues involving six year olds) it's just an example.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to remember what she had for lunch. But we can agree to disagree on that one. I expect her to remember a lot of things. She needs to know her phone number, her address, and her parent's full names. She learns to spell the words on her homework even though that's not part of the assignment, only knowing how to read them is the assignment. But because I require her to have memory retention she can spell eight letter words. I hardly think expecting her to remember something that happened two hours prior is cruel and unusual.

You wrote: "When you have unreasonable expectations, children will lie. What I have said is you should make rules, instead of DH."

Again, I don't think my expectation is unreasonable. If she didn't eat a solid meal, she doesn't get crackers or something sweet for a snack. I try to teach her that eating a balanced meal allows for "treats" because we've filled our bellies up with brain food and energy food. She lied because she knew I'd be mad that she ate a brownie and chocolate milk for lunch and nothing else. She's testing me to see what will happen. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to eat her lunch, nor unreasonable to want her to eat a balanced meal, and make sure that she is eating well.

And, I disagree that I should be the only one to make the rules. DH is not unreasonable (or no more unreasonable than I am). Setting me up to be the only one to make the rules undermines his place in the family and would make her think she doesn't have to listen to him.

If we deal with the little lies now, we can prevent the bigger ones later.

That is probably true. But how you deal with those little lies will determine, to a very great extent, how much lying happens down the road.

In your example, your daugher didnt so much lie to you as she evaded telling you the truth. She voluntarily told you the truth when you pushed the issue. You rightly pointed out to her that you would me madder if she lied, than if she told the truth. SHe immediately confessed. So what did you do? Not only did you punish her anyway, your husband grounded her for a whole weekend.

OVERKILL.

I think what you taught her was to lie next time. A better way might have been to allow a healthy snack, and discuss why it is important to eat properly - and thats it.

Of course, its your kid and you know her best. To me, kids are way overpunished for doing normal things that all kids do. I certainly remember being less than honest all the time when I was a child, and I am pretty positive most of us were as well.

Its easy to parent a six year old. They have to tow the line and do what they are told. Parenting out of fear of being punished has its drawbacks though. You are setting yourself up for major problems when the child is older, and can reason out the fact that you have no real way of knowing what she had for lunch. If the child feels she will be punished if she confesses when confronted,then she will just develop more elaborate ways of covering up. Of course this will extend to other areas of her life as well.

IMO, punishment should be saved for serious things.

My SD, 13, has a SF who is very much a "jump on it and punish it it " kind of person . SD is severly punished for lying about homework, or any other lie. SD told me the other day that she hides most of her life from her mother and SF, because she is afraid she will get into trouble. She never willingly discusses anything with her mother, or her stepfather. Funny thing is, she doesnt lie to me and her father. She is open and honest with us about her screwups, because we dont treat her like she has leprosy for doing what ALL kids do at times. She tells us all about her problems, her sucesses, and her friends and social life. She trusts us. She doesnt trust her mother and stepfather. Its sad.

And, I dont know how long you and your husband have been married, but if it hasnt been several years, I would avoid having him decide the punishment for now. If he has been in the place of her father since she was about two, then she doesnt remember any other father, and SDad can probably get away with it, but if the stepfamily is still in the forming years, its a mistake to set up the stepparent as a harsh disciplinarian.

But, what the hell do I know :) Most kids turn out okay , regardless of different parenting styles. I just have a tendency to put myself into a kids shoes, and try to see it the way they are seeing it.

WOAH! I think you got the wrong impression. This is not the lie that got her in trouble the other night. This is an example of what she has been doing.

"your daugher didnt so much lie to you as she evaded telling you the truth. "

I disagree. I asked her. She told me she didn't remember. That's not the truth. It's black and white. Either you remember, or you don't. She wanted a sugary treat for a snack. I want to evaluate what she has eaten before giving her something like that. In this case, she waited for dinner before getting something else to eat. That was her "punishment" although I didn't put it like that. I told her that when she eats junk for lunch, it makes it hard to remember things, because she's not giving her brain any food. The more healthy food she eats, the more inclined I will be to give her "treats".

And, I do know the options she has for lunch, because I have a menu. I was asking her so I could make an informed decision on what to give her for a snack.

My daughter is a good girl. She is praised a lot, by both my DH and myself. I have no real complaints. But I do find her lack of attention and readiness to lie important enough to work on. We both talk things through with her, and she is rarely yelled at and never spanked.

I have prefaced my statement with the sentiment that this is not particularly serious in these statements:

"Example of her "lies" or "convenient forgetting of the truth"

"lying about silly six year old stuff (yes, I ate all my lunch, etc.)"

We do not "punish her severely" for these types of things. But when she continues to not pay attention, and starts "conveniently forgetting" what she is doing or what she has done, I call her on it. If she can't pay enough attention to what she is doing it makes it hard for me to approve an activity that encourages her to space out more (ie, the tv).

This is what happened the other night. She had been not listening, telling little omissions of the truth and being whiny the whole day. Finally it came to a head. She was grounded. I did think it was a little harsh, and that's why it popped out of my mouth.

This comes back to the thread "conversations with the girls". Who among us says the absolutely correct thing all the time? No one. We do our best.

My original post was just saying how hard it is to co-parent. Isn't it? Doesn't this whole conversation just show how hard it is? Imagine any two of us trying to co-parent a child! Look at all the differing opinions and negativity.

Yes, I am a strict mommy. I am also very loving and generous with my time. I want her to grow up to know right from wrong. I try not to squash her spirit, while letting her know that there are rules.

I know what you mean, most kids turn out ok, and I agree. I tell my daughter I'm learning to be a mom just like she's learning to be a kid. It's both our first time doing this. I'm bound to make some mistakes, but she should know that I love her. And she really responds to that. We all make mistakes.

LOL. The way i read it, this was the incident that was being talked about that happened the other night.

I think you should be quite pleased that your daughter immediately confessed to the truth when confronted in a calm rational manner by you. I guess part of my point is that six year olds often tend to stretch the truth when asked. Its a credit to your daughter and to you that she immediately told the truth when you asked her.

I guess the other point of what i was trying to say is that overreacting by punishing a child, when the child does voluntarily tell the truth, at six, after being questioned, can do more harm that good in the long run, as the child ages and the ability to be less than honest becomes easier to get away with.

The girls know what lying is and they just turned five in August. They have been "punished" for it as well.

Example:

we noticed a scissor cut in the girls nice new sheets. We new IMMEDIATLY who had done it but didn't point any fingers. Before bed one night Jonathan laid on the bed right by the offending slash and said "Hey let's play Eye Spy. Well the innocent party went first "I spy something pink!" "EW EW EW I Know", says Miss Guilty the horse! Pointing to a pink stuffed horse. So then it was Guilty's turn "I spy something red." The Kite Jonathan said pointing to the lady bug kite on the ceiling.

Jonathan said "Now it's my turn. I spy something cut." Miss guilty gleefully pointed immediatly to the cut in the sheet while miss innocent looked around the room going Um Um Um with a confused look on her face. As soon as miss guilty relaized she had just ratted herself out the pointed finger quickly turned into a flat palm trying to cover the hole with an OH S*** look on her face.

Ironically when we asked her if she had done it she said no. Horse Hockey and she KNEW it. Her scissor rights were revoked and she was banned from the pool the next day for lying. We left the scissors (child proof of course) for miss innocent to continue using but told miss guilty if she was caught with them in her hand she would be in BIG trouble. Then we ran out of the room before we started laughing because the look on her face when she realized she had been busted was priceless....hahahaha.

Doodleboo...
hahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha!
you made me laugh so hard!! And I'm sorry about the cut, but so happy it happens to other people too! My dd has started cutting everything, her clothes, her hair, even her eyelashes! You should have seen my face when I realized half her eyelashes were completely gone!

She too, got her scissor privileges revoked. Since I keep finding things that were cut (a while ago, I'm sure) I don't know when she'll get them back.

They know... she knew she wasn't telling the truth.

Here's the tricky part...
1) they lie
2) they confess soon after

Do you punish them for lying, or congratulate them for telling the truth (eventually) and they're off the hook? I tend to stick with the original story, thank her for telling the truth, and explaining why lying doesn't work, and why she will be punished for it/what privileges she will lose as a result of not telling the truth immediately. Punished less severely, and thanked, but not let off completely.

Kids are smart. I think people give them less credit than they deserve.

I guess I need to be more careful when I use the word "grounded". Your "banned" fits what I use for punishment more clearly.

Silversword

For crying out loud watch your verbage...LOL! Oh my god though it was BEYONG hillarious. We couldn't really be too mad because it was just so funny. She laughs about it now when we bring it up. She knew precisely what she had done and knew she had been busted and STILL tried to lie. That takes brass cahonies even from a five year old girl. Priceless.

I don't think the other one ever even realized what was going on....she was still looking around the room for something cut five minutes later. HAHAHAHAHA.

Kathline,
"LOL. The way i read it, this was the incident that was being talked about that happened the other night."

I wasn't as clear as I could have been! Sorry! :)

"I think you should be quite pleased that your daughter immediately confessed to the truth when confronted in a calm rational manner by you."

I am pleased she confessed. But she didn't "immediately told the truth when you asked her", she lied when I asked her, then when I told her no snack until she remembered, she suddenly remembered. Then I asked her if she had forgotten or she just didn't want to tell me, and we went through the whole, I'll be more mad if you lie routine, then later she "remembered" that she had chicken strips or something like that..

I agree that "overreacting by punishing a child, when the child does voluntarily tell the truth, at six, after being questioned, can do more harm that good in the long run, as the child ages and the ability to be less than honest becomes easier to get away with".

In this case, she didn't get the snack she wanted. But I don't think I was overreacting, because how can she not remember what she had an hour prior? This is a kid that can tell you what she had to eat six months ago. She didn't want to tell me because she thought she'd get in trouble. I explained she'll get in trouble more if she lies. She wasn't punished harshly, but I think it was a good lesson on ommission.

I also explain why I want to know what she had, so that I can make sure she's getting good nutrition.

Since I started making her lunch, which she's happy with, I know exactly what I packed, and they are not allowed to throw food away, so I know what she comes home with. But I think she is testing me, because the other day, again, I asked her, how was lunch, did you eat it all "yes", did I pack you enough food "yes". Then we get home and she wants a snack. And I realize she did not eat her breakfast that I left out for her but had eaten the honey I had left out in a little bowl for her to put on her cereal (DD takes her to school in the morning and she told him she had eaten already). And I look in her lunch bag and she still has 1/2 of her sandwich and vegi sticks.

Her "punishment" for lying was that she didn't get a treat, she could eat the rest of her lunch for a snack. No wonder she was hungry, she didn't eat lunch. And we talk about what to pack the night before, so I'm not giving her food she won't eat/doesn't like.

She has a major issue with food. She is a tiny little thing (38.3 lbs and 39" at age six), but all she wants is junk food, partially because that's all her bio-dad gives her, and we just got her back after a summer there. So I'm a little more strict when I get her back so that I can get her back on the routine of eating veg, protein, whole grains, fruit, etc.

But she does eat good too. Yesterday she had two bowls of homemade chicken soup and asked for more. And, wanted it for dinner. But when I gave her bread and butter with it, she decided to only eat the bread and her whole bowl was untouched. I deal with this by usually giving her bread after 1/2 or so of the bowl is gone.

My point is I think she is testing me. She wants to know what she can get away with. Last night, after not eating her soup and only eating the bread she wanted bubble gum. She knows the rules, no dinner, no dessert.

Doodleboo,
That's a really good thing to do, the "I spy". Takes the heat out of the moment and lets them entrap themselves. I can see the bewilderment on the other girls face "huh? something cut? where?" Too cute!

When my SD lies she puts on what I call her "botox" face. She is absent of any expression on her face. It's a dead give away!

Believer, that's cute :) Someone was telling me that they tell their kids "don't lie to me, cause I can tell. I can see the "L's" in your eyes!

Quick note on Chocolate Milk - nutritionally, it is virtually the same as white milk. Some brands have a little more sugar than their white milk counterpart, and some don't, but the calcium, vitD and protein (why we encourage kids to drink milk) is the same in both. IMO, if your kid wants chocolate milk, just pretend the "chocolate" adjective isn't there and consider it as white milk.

About lies: We have worked very hard on "white" lies with A__.
For example, he spills things and makes all sorts of messes A LOT. But if he tells us right away, and he wasn't being reckless, it's OK because accidents happen. He spilled a tumbler of water a few weeks ago before we were up in the morning, and he woke me up right away with "Uh, Ceph, I'm sorry to wake you up, but I made a mess in the kitchen. Can you come help me?" I groggily helped him, thanked him for telling me and being so responsible, and went back to bed for a bit.
If he tried to push it under the rug (sometimes literally - LOL!) then he gets busted for lying. Such as the time he was climbing on the back of the couch while I was in the shower and left blackberry jam handprints all over the wall, but then when I asked if he was on the back of the couch, he said no. If I recall correctly, he got a talk about lying and that part of growing up is admitting your screw-ups. And he had to clean it up all by himself and I think that was when his unsupervised jam privileges were revoked.
Our goal, to help A__ understand that everyone makes mistakes, but it takes a good person to admit it!

Ceph, I must disagree:

Adding any flavoring to milk adds extra sugar and calories to an otherwise healthy drink. Even the newer 'no sugar added' varieties, like the Nesquik Chocolate No Sugar Added brand, has 3g of extra milk sugar and an extra 40 calories. And the more traditional varieties can add up to 18g of sugar and 90 calories per serving, which more than doubles the amount of calories that you would get from just the glass of milk. Keep in mind that the no sugar added varieties use artificial sweeteners.
Although milk is an important drink and an easy way for your child to get calcium and Vitamin D into his diet, it is usually best to encourage your kids to drink plain white milk. Adding chocolate flavoring just gives your child unnecessary sugar and calories. If your child won't drink plain milk, you might offer alternative sources of calcium before jumping to flavoring his milk with chocolate, as it is usually difficult to get kids to later go back to drinking plain milk once they start drinking chocolate milk. (http://pediatrics.about.com/od/milk/i/06_choc_milk_2.htm)

Also, any milk and a brownie are not appropriate for lunch IMO.

I also didn't add that she has a slight milk allergy and I try to keep her away from milk. She drinks soy milk instead and really likes it. She does eat cheese (for some reason it doesn't affect her the same way) and eats leafy green vegis like kale and swiss chard (she LOVES kale) so calcium is not an issue.

Ceph, I totally agree... If my daughter makes a mess she is not in trouble. If she had spilled something and then not told me, she will be spoken to about letting me know so we can clean it up. If she spills something, then lies, she's in trouble.

We talk about how the main thing to do when we make a mess is to clean it up. We point out when we don't pay attention and how silly we look, or what messes we make sometimes. I didn't listen to the question my DD's teacher was asking me the other day (she was showing me a quarts to pints trick) and I gave the wrong answer. She gently chided me and I said, jeez DD, see what happens when Mom doesn't pay attention? She got a kick out of that one. And when I knocked a bowl off the counter and it broke, I pointed that out too (wasn't paying attention, now what does mom have to do? Clean it up!) so that she understands it's not just her who makes mistakes or messes. Everyone does, it's a part of life. It's not making the mess, it's knowing how to clean it up.

Weird - chocolate milk here doesn't have that much extra sugar and calories. I think it was 20 extra calories (aka 5g of sugar) per cup for the brand most widely available... but our chocolate milk is produced at the dairy, not by a chocolate company, so maybe it's a regional difference?

Anyhow, I agree that milk an a brownie are a bad lunch.

Depending on her allergy, it makes sense for cheese to not affect her in the same way milk does. I have a milk allergy (I get eczema from it) but I can have a few servings of non-milk dairy a day and not have a reaction. I also drink soymilk instead.

I must climb up on my bioavailability soap-box:
Watch for counting on non-milk sources of calcium - calcium absorption is aided by vitD, which is supplemented into milk and soymilk, but not found in vegetables. Many vegetables contain phytates or oxaloacetate that can actually inhibit calcium absorption... So kale has quite a lot of bioavailable calcium, as does bok choy, but spinach and Swiss chard are poor sources of bioavailable calcium.
If you are wondering how I know this stuff - I have a degree in biochemistry, am doing a PhD in plant science, and I have been pesco-vegetarian for the past six years (which means I eat fish or seafood sometimes, but am otherwise vegetarian).

I have six kids who would have been happy to drink whole white milk in school - but the choices are "chocolate flavored water" (usually skim) milk, or 1% white milk. The only reason they chose chocolate milk was that it was the only thing that was drinkable. Even my youngest almost never asks for chocolate milk in a restaurant, when whole milk is available.

My daughter's school doesn't serve brownies or other desserts anymore (much to my child's disappointment).