I respectfully request that replies are limited to:

1. Step moms and dads with similar experience.

2. Bio moms or dads that have found themselves in my wife's role and have come up with successful solutions.

Everyone else, please stick to what you know.

titan, I'm sorry to say that I don't think you'll get anywhere with SD unless you and your wife can get on the same page regarding discipline. There are buckets of books, articles, and related research to back this up. It's not only with stepkids, but children in general.
You might not know it now, but you are shaping her into a good person, and bless your heart for trying!
I think you and your wife need to find a good counselor to talk to and that way at the very least you can discuss your concerns in a neutral environment and hopefully she'll catch on. She's got NOTHING to feel guilty about. She didn't 'take' SD from her BF. He's the one who's checked out! Most women who remarry should be so lucky to find a man that participates in all the ways you do!

Thanks Annebel.

We went to family counseling when SD was 12 yrs. Counselor listened to everyone tell their side, and then told SD to shape up.

I thought, "ok good, I'm not crazy on this."

SD changed behavior for a while, but, my wife reinforced the old behavior, and we were back to the staus quo.

Maybe we should go back. It might be too late. I can't imagine my SD changing now.

OK, I'll bite. I'm a biomom of two teenage boys. I was somewhat in your wife's role as I found myself feeling caught in the middle of my fiance and my sons. He never criticizes my boys directly or disciplines them, but he does point out to me where he thinks they've been disrespectful. And it's not necessarily them being disrespectful of him that gets his goat, it's when he feels they've been disrespectful of me . I felt pulled from both sides - it was an untenable situation. What helped was to step back and look at the situation from his perspective. My boys are basically good kids, but they can be very demanding. I started being clear to everyone that I wasn't going to drop everything that I was doing to attend to my sons' needs. Example, son #1: "I'm starving, make me a sandwhich NOW" Me: "I'm working right now, but I'll be happy to do it in 30 min. Or if you're hungry you can make it yourself now". Once they got used to the idea that the world wasn't going to stop so that whatever they needed would happen, things have improved a great deal. The idea was to set boundaries.

I have no experience with teenage girls, they're a mystery to me. However I did read a good book: Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent's Guide to the New Teenager. It really helped put things into perspective for me, and as a result I tend to allow natural consequences to occur. For example, the boys like to stay up very late in the summer. This would drive me crazy until I realized that I was the only one being bothered by it. I began using the natural consequence philosophy: if you're up late and oversleep the next morning so that you miss camp, tennis, golf w/your father, etc...not my problem. You're old enough to decide when to go to sleep, and you're old enough to get yourself up in time to do what you want to do. The important thing (for me) is to follow through with what I say: I didn't wake them up. Amazingly enough, they weren't late for anything this summer. The book is all about teaching kids to take responsibility, and since most kids have an inherent desire to please their parents, the kids often step up to do the right thing. Even if they don't do the right thing, natural consequences are often such that a lesson is learned & filed away for next time.

Hope this helps.
Ann

Titan

I too have been a lurker here for long time now and have only recently began posting. Our situations sound very similar.

I am SM to almost 16 yo SS. Raised him since he was 5 - BM who was/is totally worthless left when he was 3. She is now back in the picture.

"In my head, I get it. I'm not her bio-dad. I'll never measure up. No matter what I do, it will never be enough.

In my heart, I just don't get it. I'm the one who protects her from strangers, boys who only want one thing, I pay for her to go to private school, and everything else she needs (or wants). I will be the one who pays for college and buys her first car. *Yes I know you can't buy a childs love*. I sit with her and talk when she cries about something that happened at school. I'm There for her."

I think I have said almost this exact same thing, with a little variation. Lately I sometimes want to scream where has your perfect mother been the past 10 years? While I was doing everything? Yet he thinks she's wonderful and resents me.

I too am counting down - just little over 2 years now until he leaves - of course in my case its probably prison not college. Since BM has been back in his life its been downhill from there - drinking, drugs, disrespect - and I am powerless to stop it. For whatever reason - DH won't. Its like beating my head against the wall.

One word for you my friend - disengage Not what I wanted to hear either and its just about killed me because I really did/do love my ss. I want a future for him and succes and a happy life but there is nothing I can do. There is nothing you can do, other than hope and pray that once she becomes an adult she will change. People keep telling me its just the teenage years and it will be different once they are grown. I hang on to that. Though I am not counting on it. I go back and forth between feeling hurt and betrayed to unbelievable anger.

Disengage - its the only way I have preserved my sanity -take care of yourself - noone else will. I will be thinking about you.

Hi, Titan

I have been in your shoes.

My SS was 16 when we married, and lived with us full time.
No overnights to anywhere. All grandparents were deceased.

The worst thing was the general disrespect I received from him, and my spouse's willingness to tolerate disrespect to himself and to me.

Three things made all the difference in the world:
1) Eventually, he did get in trouble, and that got my husband's attention.
2) He went away to college.
3) MOST IMPORTANT: I disengaged.

Now he is a good citizen, college graduate, and has a job.

Your SD is making good grades, but she doesn't appreciate you and treats you disrespectfully. I know how that feels.
Especially when you are successful in your life, and you
deserve and receive respect from everyone else.

You just didn't think it was going to be this hard.

You absolutely have to let go of this issue. It will destroy your marriage. Part of your wife's issue is that probably for a period of time, her daughter was more of a friend or a support system, and so your parenting styles are different.

If your SD makes good grades, and attends private school, then SOMEDAY she will go to college. Her perspective will eventually change, and she will begin to appreciate you.
I PROMISE!!!

Also, she must have some sense of responsibility, and will probably avoid most major pitfalls when it comes to staying out of trouble.

Warn her where the dangers are, and then let her make her own decisions. Disengage from her. Be pleasant but do not nag. (sorry for using that word!) Let it go.

It will help with the tension in your marriage, and in the long run, TRUST ME, everything will work out.

You chose your wife because you love her.
If it weren't this issue with your wife, it would be another issue with someone else. At least your wife doesn't (fill in your favorite bad habit--smoke crack, cheat on you, turn tricks on Murfreesboro Road,...)

There are better days ahead. I know. I have been there.

xoxox

Titan ... I see by your other posts ... you are letting it eat at you. No matter what she does she's gonna get under your skin.

I think when my daughter was 16 She and I didn't speak unless she needed money or was going to coming home late or came home late. Everything else was a battle how was your day? Why do you have to be so nosy!! ... You never ask me about my friends you don't care where I am ... because everytime I ask I am nosy.

Everything was a battle ... not picking up her room leaving stuff all over the house even what I was making for dinner.. everything didn't matter. Just know it will pass ... (when my daughter and step daughter turned 18 they suddenly saw the light). She's 16 thinks she is grown will find out soon enough the real world sucks. Probably entering her last year of high school ... facing reality that next year she either has to continue her education or get a job. Scary thoughts. Moving away from home yeah she has probably said... when I turn 18 I am moving out!!! (Both daughter and step daughter used that one until they turned 18 didn't hear it again after they turned 18). Even though she doesn't mean it. She knows she can't afford to move out.

Disengaging is a wonderful thing. She comes home you say Hi how are you! she will either respond or grunt, most likely grunt, and go off to her room. Do not give her the opportunity to "blame" you or be _______ at you. I know its a bitter pill to swallow you just want to say ... who do you think you are? You can't talk to ME that way!! After all I have done for you. But don't no matter what you say to her it will be an argument. Keep it short and sweet. When she asks for something ... go ask your mother. Let that become your favorite phrase. I don't care what the "it" is ... go ask your mother.

When wifey is _______ about daughter shut her off too. Say to her unless you are going to fix the problem don't bother talking to me about it. If you are going to enable her to treat you "that way" then I am staying out of it.

With my SD who is 18 I didn't realize I was disengaged from her till a few days ago. When she asked me for something and I said go ask your father and she said I did he told me to check with you. I sat and reflected on the relationship between her and I and I realized I have been disengaged from her since day one. With minor interuptions ... finding booze in the house knives ... stupid stuff but major issues with younger children in the house.

Vent here as needed ... some of us ... rant and rave here so our families don't have to see us in a lunatic rage over stuff that is important to us at that moment...sometimes minor issues other times major issues. But later on we revisit the issue and have a different point of view.

TRUE!!!

Ask your father. So True, Cawfe.

Disengage.

When you are pushing, they back away.

If you pull away, they will come closer.

Hi Titan,

I just wanted to say that I don't think I'd ever be comfortable disciplining someone else's child. I'm sorry that you have been left no choice. I'd say that's a lose-lose situation for you. First of all, the SD will resent it as she doesn't have that unconditional love one has for a parent. Secondly, we mothers get our protective feathers all ruffled when someone other than us criticizes our kids! Your wife needed to say, early on, "You would not be allowed to speak to a stranger like that so you'd better not dare to speak to my husband like that...." I think we've all wanted to hear something along those lines, but very few of us have.

I also wanted to say that it is NOT too late for counseling. Other than once earlier in our marriage, DH and I did not start counseling until a couple of months ago. We've been married 10 yrs. It has helped us tremendously and has made him realize that enabling his adult (22,24,26) children is doing them NO service. Rewarding bad behavior isn't anything I want him to do with our young boys, yet he continually did it w/ his older kids. I'd tell him, but he'd turn a deaf ear. Suddenly someone else tells him and he's agreeing, vowing to change, etc.

I was very close to leaving my DH a few months ago. The counselor has made a huge change. She gives an agenda and holds him/us accountable to update her at the next meeting - was weekly, now every other. So, it's definitely not too late.

I'm so sorry SD can't see any of your efforts. However, I have to agree w/ Cawfe that you may be at the point where anything she does is going to annoy you. I got to that point w/ my SD who was living here until last month. But, I'm not assertive and would smile and take the good and the bad, then gripe to DH later that night. It wasn't right for me to do that, but I didn't feel at all appreciated and was taken for granted.

Anyway, I just want to see you get a therapist that will help your DW see the light and aid you both in communicating w/ SD. DH and I had major issues w/ dialogue, etc, and how to go about suggesting she move out, etc. Playing it out in front of the therapist was so helpful. No one wanted to offend her or feel like we were kicking her out, etc.

All the best,
Dana

Vista-
What if SD will not attend counseling? I can't force her to go. Even if my wife and I made her attend, she may just shut down.

Then what?

It is good to hear that it has worked for someone.

Cawfecup-
I have tried to disengage in the past. I got mad at my wife for not supporting me in discipline we had both agreed to. I told her, "If I get the crappy end of the stick either way, I'll just mentally check out of this parent thing."

The problem was that it just wasn't my style. I'm very type A. I would see what was going on and was unable to keep my mouth shut.

Not to mention I felt like I was copping out. Taking the easy way out. It felt dishonest, because I had a suspicion that the step parent deal was going to be a tough gig. I knew it and chose to take my wife and her daughter as my family anyway.

That takes me back to my earlier comment about choosing the hard right over the easy wrong. I feel like somebody has to mold this kid into a good person. I owe it to her. Her bio dad sure won't do it. We only get one shot. I don't want to look back in 10 years and wish I had just taken the pain instead of giving up on her.

More later

Hi, Titan

In my humble opinion, the counselling is more for you and
your wife, than for your SD. If you had some back-up
you wouldn't have to play "bad-cop" all the time.
If your wife understood your good intentions, she might step up to the plate.

Your SD is not going to end up in prison. She makes good grades, and basically sounds like a good kid.

Treating you with disrespect is wrong. Showing lack of appreciate for what you do for her is wrong.

BUT, it's a lot easier to take when you are not bending over backwards to help her all the time.

IN other words, when you disengage, you are not a pushover any more. It's not that you are giving up on them, it's that you are not constantly giving giving giving and then being treated like crap. You are just being treated like crap. : ) At least you don't feel used, in the process.

Also, when you disengage, you get everyone's attention.

This kid is not going to turn out badly, she just needs boundaries. Is she doing drugs? Is she drinking and driving? Does she shop-lift? If there's nothing like that, then it's just a matter of a baby-bird begging to be thrown out of the nest--it's natural. Otherwise there would be way too many adults living with their parents.
It is awful, but it will pass, especially with a little distance.

Where is she going to college? At least 4 hours away would be good.

If she is 17, is she a senior?

Will she be going to college next year?

Maybe a semester abroad this spring?
Some distance would really be a great thing.

You are not responsible for raising this kid--she is already there. She will either make good decisions or bad decisions, and she will learn more from her mistakes.

Titan,

We never involved the kids in our counseling. To be very honest, I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. My DH would not ever stand up to his adult kids. The SS lived w/ us while in H.S. then for all college breaks. He promised to work for us, getting our office on computers, etc, but never showed. The deal was a car for him and guess what? DH went out and bought it anyway, despite our trying at that point to get our house under construction and having no extra money whatsoever. Nowadays, we're financially crippled by a fire two years ago, but does that stop DH from continuing to pay for three cars, three cell phones, three more health insurances, etc. for THREE adults? Nope. My necessities (paying down credit cards maxed out from the fire and a crooked contractor, any luxuries I once had) would be put on the back burner so that he could continue to play a Rockefeller to these adults who have the most amazing sense of entitlement.

Yes, I blame these kids. They know how we've struggled to get this house built and try to keep our practice going after the fire at our office. We have a hearing on 9/11 that will hopefully force the ins. co. to pay.

However, I blame my husband for never, ever saying "no" to those skids. I mean, the son has been on the run after failing/dropping out of college in his 6th year (at a private univ.) We paid for the first four years, he took student loans out for his fifth, and I cosigned for him to get another student loan to finish up. Despite DH sending him car $ each month, SS had the car repo'd. Instead of handing him a bus pass, DH moved heaven and earth to get the darned car back. Then he said to his son, "Finish school or get a job..." but SS took off rather than join the work force or finish school, if it was an option. I'm stuck w/ the GSL and we finally got the car back a few mos. ago, but have a neg. equity and it's sitting here - can't get rid of it.

Then, in Nov, DH tells me his DD is moving in. I say that I don't think it's a great idea, etc. Then, as the MOVING van is pulling up, tells me basically that she's here for 3 mos. It turned into 8 and I was at the end of my rope. He was doing the same thing w/ her that he did w/ his son - never allowing them to stand on their own two feet. So, rather than divorce (we have three little boys) I gave counseling a try.

The skids were pretty awful at times, but it was my DH who was allowing them to be so - he never put his foot down (unless that 'work or finish school' is doing that - I don't even believe he said that much - SS is gay, living off a boyfriend, hiding from us and the real world...) So, I went into counseling thinking it wouldn't work, but the woman was fantastic and basically told DH that he wasn't helping them out in the long run, that he needed to be a united front w/ me, that he could no longer operate financially independent of me (all assets are in my name, we are both dentists, I own the practice though it was his once - he lost a lot in his divorce, no credit, etc.) She also helped him w/ dialogue to get his adult kids to be independent, establish their own credit, though we're still working on that. I'm happy for SD being out of the house as I was the maid, the cook, etc. for her and while I don't believe DH wanted it that way, he never saw it until the therapist helped open his eyes. He also has always been afraid to alienate the kids w/ any form of discipline.

So, the counseling helped us to get on the same page. We're far from perfect, but I was so unhappy a few months ago when I first came here that I was seriously considering moving out of the dream house I sacrificed so much to build.

Give it a try. Your wife needs to hear all about correct parenting from an impartial third party.

Dana

Hi, Dana & Titan

True. When parents change behavior, SK will change behavior.

No need for SD to go to counselling.

My DH and I have been in counselling, also, with a really great counsellor in Nashville who has personal experience with stepfamily issues. Titan, she really helped us.
My DH was very skeptical at first and very guarded, but ended up really liking her, and she really helped.

Later, DH sent SD alone to see her to deal with her own issues. If you are interested, I can give you specifics.

I don't know what personality my type is ... but I know everything before the children even think about doing "it". I know what will happen. I guess I inherited the eyes in the back of my head from my mother.

So I say things like: ... you might want to see what they are doing. You might want to check on them. You might want to mute the tv.... awful lot of noise coming from their rooms. I don't disengage all the time I choose when ... to engage their father. You might want to ask your father if you can play with that power drill/shovel/saw/ax/_____! Loud enough to be heard :-).

You are not giving up on her... you are getting her mother to be involved. You are not copping out or taking the easy way ... you reached out for advice so obviously you see hope or you would have just given up by now. Giving up would be packing your bags not coming here or seeking out counselors.

Disengaging is not about sitting idly by while they (SC) do whatever they want. Its about engaging the bio-parent. And helping them see that there has to be a different way because what they have done for so far is not working.

I was tired of being the bad gal :-) all the time. The mean one because I was the only one who saw anything my SC did good or bad. Their parents saw the behaviors but chose to ignore them... poor kids their parents were divorced!!

Your SD is almost an adult do you want to alienate her? Do you want to just survive the next 2 years till she goes off to college? Do you think your marriage will last if you are ________ all the time?

I'll keep it short --

From what I've read and experienced with my teen son, it sounds to me like 90% of the problem is because you have two parents with different approaches to discipline trying to raise a teenager in her rebellious phase. The other 10% might be step-parent issues.

If you and Mom can get on the same page with your expectations and standards, and agree on specific consequences for various misbehaviors, then you'll be 90% of the way there. And the remaining 10% may not be bad enough to eve mention...