Somewhere you and SD got off on the wrong tract and now every little thing bothers you. No way of knowing what may or may not bother her but I do know for sure, you can not change her but you do have the power to change/control your reactions if you choose to. In some of your posts I do see signs your SD is trying.

Thurman -

Here's an additional two cents from me and this is inspired by yours and TOS's last comments.

"My wife wants me to "care"-- at times, she pushes hard for the "Brady Bunch" family where everyone loves everyone else and gets along. So it is hard to detach when the bio-Mom is doing that. She gets mad at me when I do not show any interest ("that's my daughter, how can you not love her!")."

That must make you feel awful. I imagine having your wife pushing the issue further fuels the resentment you have for SD. It's only natural. I can see why you would want your wife to go to counseling. It sounds like a family counselor would benefit both of you. Your wife really needs to stop pushing because it will have the opposite effect of a Brady Bunch Family.

What TOS is failing to recognize is that sometimes some SK's (NOT ALL) will treat a perfect stranger with more respect and friendliness than they will their SP. I have had it happen to me and I have read it numerous times on this site, so it is understandable why you tend to pick this SD apart, but you can't do it. When your SD was younger and at times presumably rude and disrespectful to you (after all kids aren't perfect), you most likely had to bite your tongue and let much of it roll off of you because she was just a kid who was adjusting to major changes in her life. Now that she is an adult, you are treated with indifference at best and your wife wants you to embrace SD with the same unconditional love that she has for her DD. I doubt many people are able to do that. I doubt that she has the same high expectation for her DD to love you?

The only other thing that I can think of for you to do, and I don't know how good of an idea this really is, is to write SD a letter and tell her how you feel about the relationship you two share, apologize for any of your missteps, let her know what you want and what it will take to achieve things from your point of view - AND give a copy of the letter to your wife. If it doesn't work, at least she will know you in earnest tried to do this for your family.

Thurman, Gerina made such a great point, does your wife also expect her daughter to love YOU?

I doubt that his wife expects him to love her daughter like she does, but it is probably hard for his wife to deal with the fact that Thurman detests her daughter.

Children, especially teens, often treat perfect strangers with more respect than they do their own biological parents. So what? Their parents don't hold it against them for the rest of their lives. Most parents would be proud of a child who was in medical school (or maybe she has graduated already, I don't remember), and would not complain about one minor issue after another. I don't think most stepparents whose stepchildren were successful adults in medical school would complain about the minor issues Thurman keeps coming up with. I suspect that a lot of stepparents (and quite a few parents) would give their eye teeth to have a daughter in medical school, and one who was thoughtful enough to send a get well card to her stepfather's parent.

I don't recall Thurman ever mentioning that his stepdaughter did ANYTHING that was actually mean or even thoughtless. It seems that mostly she tries to avoid confrontation with him, and one can hardly blame her.

Given the propensity of some counselors to advocate divorce, I would think Thurman would be hesitant to recommend counseling for his wife. Or maybe he is just trying to build up a mental list of resentments to justify divorcing his wife as soon as their son leaves home.

TOS

I know better than to engage you because it ends up becoming non-productive, but I copied a portion of one of Thurman's original threads from two years ago and it is posted below.

Thurman does sound proud of his SD and her accomplishments but he is also really hurt by her and very frustrated by his wife's lack of support. It hardly seems fair that he can tell their bio-son to say hello when entering a room and then he gets flack from his wife because he expects the same manners and courtesy from his son's older sister.

I am not saying that Thurman has done everything perfectly (he really needs to quell his captious behavior) and I don't think he is saying that either. We only have his side of the story but it seems pretty one-sided when it comes to mom defending daughter. He's just trying to lead his family. I imagine that Thurman probably feels very emasculated by these things.

Here's what he had to say - Geri

"Posted by thurman (My Page) on
Sat, Dec 2, 06 at 21:09

Dear friends,

I really appreciate your sharing of your lives as stepparents. It is nice to know we're not crazy and we're not alone.

I'm finding it's those little things that mount for me. My stepdaughter is a pretty successful kid. She is going to be a doctor. Doesn't sleep around as far as I know. Goes to church. All good things!

So, my wife and I don't fight over issues like "she's pregnant and dumping her kids on us," or "she steals money to buy drugs."

But it's the little things that mount, and hurt, and end up dividing us. As one writer of a post said, being upset because a stepchild doesn't say hello when they come into a room sounds petty...but it hurts. It sends a message that your presence doesn't matter. If it happened once, you'd ignore it. I've been there. I'd say, "oh she's just a kid." Maybe I'd overlook the 3rd or 4th or 9th time. By double-digits, I've had enough.

When your bio-child does it, it doesn't hurt. You have a history of mutual, unconditional love together. When a stepchild does it, it reinforces the fact that they may not like you or respect you. Every little event carries lots of emotional weight. Ouch!

Also-- when bio-child is rude, if you're any kind of parent, you usually say, "hey, when you come into a room, try saying hello." Do that with your stepchild and it might start WWIII. My problem is so much is pent up from the prior 100 times that happened that I usually end up exploding as I'm trying to say something to correct the behavior. All of that rage and anger comes out, and a molehill quickly becomes a volcano."

Thurman is the one who, by his own admission, is making mountains out of molehills. I think he is very oversensitive to perceived slights. In that example, why is he assuming that a stepchild means anything more or less by not saying hello than a biological child does? Why doesn't Thurman just say hi first? It is coincidental that you should bring up this post, because my exH's current wife got upset with one of my kids because he didn't say hi first when SHE walked into the room. After reading this post, I noticed that at work, sometimes it was the person who was already there who said hi, and sometimes the newly entering person. I took an informal survey among my coworkers (mostly middle-aged) and no one had even considered the matter before. Almost all of them said, "What does it matter? Whoever thinks of it first just says hi."

Well really TOS your informal survey means nothing. Now if you really want to find out what happens, pick one person at work who you continuously never say hello to first, and when and if you do say hello say it reluctantly.

Make sure you always effusively say hello to everyone else. Do it every single time for a year and observe how that other person's feelings toward you change. I doubt it would take anywhere close to a year for that person to become hurt and note something was very wrong. Also observe how your feelings change toward them.

Did Thurman say his stepdaughter "effusively said hello to everyone else?" Did he even say that HE ever said hello to HER first, or that if he did, that she responded reluctantly? Maybe she was in the "person who is already there is supposed to say hello first" camp, and was hurt that he didn't. Apparently that is the camp my exH's wife attends.

Did you notice that he did not responsibility for his "explosions?" That he, himself, describes his reaction as "rage?" Don't you think that as a child/teenager, she was frightened by these rages? That even as an adult, she would tend to avoid him because anything she says can and will be used against her?

I have to wonder, also, if his self-described rages included more than yelling.

These are conclusions that you are drawing without any hard information and are in fact complete conjecture on your part. Unless you know something I don't know about thurman they are pretty damning conjectures.

"I have to wonder, also, if his self-described rages included more than yelling."

What exactly does that mean TOS?

Relationships are not one way. They never are. It takes two to tango.
And you cannot force anyone to 'love' one another. Period. I do not love my SD and i never will. There is nothing wrong with that. I do not love my Stepmother. I care about her but will not love her like i love my dad.
And as far as hate is concerned, in this case , my understanding was from previous years was that this SD was the one with the chip on her shoulder and wouldnt give thurman the time of day. I blame this on his wife for not intervening but seeing now that she wants the brady bunch family i can understand why she never stepped in.
She as a wife should understand and support her husband to accept the fact that her daughter does not and never will have a relationship with her husband. There is nothing wrong with that. This is life. If two people do not liek one another you cannot force it. It will only lead to bitterness and resentment. I'm sure the SD feels resentment about being forced and i'm sure her mother must have said something to her as well.
It really doesn't matter if you are a christian on this or an atheist. Your wife just cannot accept two people not loving one another. This is her problem.
Choose your battles and think of positive things.
And losing ones temper from frustration is a human response. i dont think he was violent towards his SD.I'm sure his own wife would have left him if he was. You too would lose your temper if all your attempts were busted like a balloon reblown over and over again.
Thurman is proud of his SD accomplishments. Its just sad that she doesn't acknowledge him. And this is rude from a human perspective.
You may not like someone but if someone says hello and you just ignore them, that's rude. And next time you dont bother ot say hello because the response will not be there so why bother trying??
The way i see it, your SD has a chip for whatever reason and maybe should go into counciling for that alone. And your wife should be more supportive of you but is not..
Hang in there and do things that will make you happy for yourself.

Thurman--

I think I was a bit terse with you in my earlier response out of frustration with my own situation, and I apologize if I sounded harsh. I think that even though you do sound nitpicky (sorry!), I think you do actually care and want to improve the situation. That is key. You first have to REALLY WANT the relationship to improve...

Maybe it would be helpful to try and zero in on the core issues. Try and remember the very first time you ever noticed the first drop of "bad blood" starting between you and SD. What were the life circumstances surrounding it? How old were you, how old was she? Was there a major life transition going on for anyone in the family (she turned 18 or was planning for college, or mom just got laid off at work, or you just turned a certain pivotal age, etc.). It does seem like many SP/SK problems start around a "pivotal" time in the life of anyone in the family, i.e. SK starts college planning and the ever-contentious issue of who should pay how much for college rears its head. Or one of the parents leaves their job (for whatever reason) and this may create extra financial stress (never an easy thing, esp. for a stepfamily) as well as increased time around the SK, which is an adjustment. Or one of the parents reaches a point where the issue of having additional kids comes up and it becomes a conflict. Or the whole family moves to a new town, etc... Each and every one of these things may cause internal questioning that may unfortunately precipitate a new dynamic in the SP/SK relationship, and all too often increased criticalness. There are often encounters which ---if everyone's not careful--- may set up a situation where a decision has to be made as to who to prioritize, SP or SK, and if a solution isn't found (or isn't possible) that everyone is satisfied with, it can lead to resentment, score-keeping, etc. Too often, an SP or SK is resented because of a decision made by the BP in the middle. The SK or SP is seen as "the real reason" the unsatisfying decision was made, and this may very well be true.... or it may not be...

Then try and zero in on what you think the "elephant in the room" issue is in the situation (it can be more than one, but it's usually just one or two or three core issues), the thing that is the constant source of conflict and tension underlying the litle surface interactions. This can be something very specific to your situation, like an *incident* (SK doesn't invite SP to wedding, or SP makes a not-nice comment about SK's bio-parent) or *feared outcome* (SK wants to move in for a while after graduation and SP fears it will be forever) or it can be any of the most common conflicts that plague almost every stepfamily (i.e. general loyalty conflicts, affection, money, time, discipline and/or values conflicts)

Many SP/SK problems unfortunately center on the question of who is "more important" or who is "#1". Underlying this is the (basically irrational and impossible) question of who is more loved, more valued and valu-able as a person, whose needs and interests will be prioritized, who will be provided for and who will not, who will be defended from the other in a fight, who is morally superior, even physically superior, in short, who is "better". I'm sure some of this goes on, at some point, in pretty much every blended family, it's just a matter of degree and to what extent it gets out of control. I know that some of this 'ranking' is unavoidable (because there are a few scenarios that come up where it's not possible to please everyone at the exact same time in exact equal measure), but some of it IS avoidable, or minimizable, and should be avoided and minimized in my opinion. Making things fair and harmonious in a blended family is hard enough when you have to deal with the occasional unavoidable 'Sophie's Choice' (if you will). But too often, EVERY LITTLE THING becomes a contest of "who's #1", even things that REALLY DON'T HAVE TO BE CONTESTS. Usually these little micro-contests are distractions from the real issue and actually become "used" as outlets for the underying anger. This is why a very minor matter ---which should and does have a perfectly workable fair solution--- is allowed to escalate into a major battle.

You should try and figure out what the real issue *IS* (and what it isn't); why no one's talking about it directly (has someone tried but been shot down or told it was inappropriate to discuss?); whether or not it is a conflict that even HAS a solution or if, at the end of the day, someone is just going to have to "deal" or "take one for the team"; and what, if anything, could re-balance the equation so that nobody has to continue to feel "wronged". If the conflict doesn't seem to be reconcilable, it could be that one or more people involved in it have a need or desire that just isn't realistic, in which case the next step is self-analysis to figure out why such-and-such has become a bigger issue than it needs to be. (Some examples: bio-parent in the middle desperately needs SP and SK to get along because s/he is insecure about their choice in a partner or their parenting skills or any mistakes they might have made in judgement about either; SP desperately needs SK approval because of insecurity about whether the first spouse was "better" as a person; SK desperately needs SP approval because of divorce or death-related abandonment issues or they were bullied at school and need positive reinforcement, etc. etc. etc.).

You can also ask yourself: "Okay, I think SD dislikes me and avoids me. Why might this be? Can I think of anything I might have done or said that may have caused that reaction? Is it TOTAL dislike of me, or just of certain behaviors or actions? Have I asked her directly what she feels about me, and have I been truly open to hearing her answer? Do I think her feelings is valid or not? If they're valid, what can I do to address them with her? If they're not valid, is there anything I can do to 'correct' her perceptions, or is her perception likely to stay the same no matter what I do? If I think her dislike of me is invalid, why do I let it bother me so much? Am I okay with the possibility that she may dislike certain things about me without feeling a need to prove her 'wrong'? Is it possible to have a decent relationship with her, even if we are not exactly alike, or if there are things we both dislike about the other, or if it will, in all likelihood, never get beyond a certain level of closeness? Can I accept that? Finally, do I actually like HER, and if not WHY not, what does she or her existence represent to me or cause me to fear? If I don't like her, how can I address that and is there even anything that can be done about that?"

I think if you are really honest and spend some time thinking about all of this stuff, you will realize the one or two or three central things you are REALLY in conflict with her about. Then you will have to figure out how to best deal with that actual conflict, which may not be easy at all (hence the function of the distracting mini-conflicts), but it doesn't sound like it's easy, either, to be in these constant little unspoken skirmishes about surface, inconsequential things. I think we forum-sters would all be interested in hearing what you come up with, if you're willing to share it here.

Colleen,

If somewhat raged at me at work, I would not speak to the person unless necessary, and would seek to avoid him.

OP has posted previously that he expects to control relationships, resents with his wife sees her DD. Resents when SD doesnt pick up after him.

Many women allow SFs to be abusive to children -- not saying that OP is physically abusive, but he admits to verbal abuse.

Where did anyone say anything about anyone raging at someone at work? That is just something you made up.

I still want to hear what TOS meant when she said:

"I have to wonder, also, if his self-described rages included more than yelling."

Thurman,

I can understand your frustration and I would agree that it's a HUGE problem if your wife expects you to regard her child as your own. (especially if she doesn't expect her child to reciprocate) but it's not realistic for her to expect EITHER of you to feel any certain way.

It is normal for her to love her mom and brother. It is normal for her mom to love her and her brother (and you). It is normal for her brother to love you, his mom and his sister. But relationships between step family members cannot be forced and are the responsibility of the two people. I am a stepmother to a 9 year old and my husband is my adult children's stepfather. My relationship with my stepdaughter is up to me and my stepdaughter to form. Her mom has influenced her to dislike me but she also makes her own choices too, but it does take two. My husband has his own struggles with my kids. We can encourage our kids to like the stepparent and we ALWAYS expect our own kids to treat the stepparent with RESPECT but we cannot make our kids 'like' the stepparent. That is for us to figure out. If your stepdaughter or you don't 'want' a closer relationship, it isn't going to happen no matter what your wife wants. I agree it would help to get counseling... for your wife to accept that you are not an intact family and it's not so easy to love someone else's kids. but also for you to find out why you have a wall put up for your stepdaughter and why everything she does gets under your skin. I'm sure it didn't happen overnight... and it's not going to be resolved overnight.

My SD is 9 and it has begun. I have noticed that as long as she is getting everything she wants.. a movie, playing a game, going for a bike ride, baking cookies, drawing pictures, whatever she wants to do... she's fine and wonderful. As soon as I tell her to do something that she doesn't want to do, or if I scold her for breaking a rule or don't give her what she wants to eat, she cops an attitude with me. She will become quiet, won't look at me, and avoid me. It's a constant thing that I have had to start telling her repeatedly that just because I tell her to stop chasing the cat or she needs to clean her room before going out to play, it doesn't mean I am angry at her or that I don't like her... it means she needs to do what she is supposed to and it's my job to remind her if she forgets. (and YES, it IS my job as custodial stepmom!) But, it would (and has been) very easy to disengage and ignore her back when she ignores me and it can go on for days/weeks and I too have struggled with 'should I try?' or 'should I give up and just try to co-exist?' because she doesn't seem to like me so why should I try? It is frustrating so I can understand your frustration and it's my opinion with adult stepchildren, there's nothing wrong with just trying to co-exist.

At some point, adult children have to accept THEIR responsibility in the relationship problem. I am an adult stepchild and I was about 22-23 when I began to realize it was up to me to be responsible for my relationship, or lack thereof with my stepmom. I chose to try harder to get along with her and it turned out we had common interests and my dad was very appreciative of my efforts and therefore, our relationship also improved (not that it was bad, but we got even closer).

I also agree with the posters that have said 'pick your battles.' Who she calls is not important and you can spend a lot of time, finding things she does that can be interpreted as her being disrespectful.

Sometimes it helps to be "really dense" and not to look too closely at things.
Don't look for motives.
Don't examine possible hidden meanings.
Don't read between the lines.

Because it just doesn't help!
It simply makes you crazy "putting up with" things a less observant person wouldn't even have noticed!

Wiping up a small mess on the floor is no big deal.
Unless you start to wonder who put it there?
What the mess is?
Why that person didn't clean it up?
Why they put it there in the first place?
Did they deliberately intend to soil the area where the mess was left?
Or do they care so little about your home that they didn't even notice?
Why do you always have to clean up all of the messes?
Did the messer leave the mess just so you'd have to clean it up?
Was the messer trying to tick you off?

Thurman has already admitted to making mountains out of molehills.
The answer is learning how to recognize a molehill.
And in learning to assume that everything, until proven otherwise, is just a molehill.

With the exception of one, my stepchildren will call me first regardless of the situation. The exception only calls when she needs legal advice. LOL For this, I thank God. We dont care for each other, I told her how I feel about her a long time ago and now we tolerate each other. She limits her calling to when I am not there now as per one of my old threads. Don't worry about it, you do not have to like each other's children.

Funny incident yesterday, she calls the house last night while her dad is in the shower to get her daily list of what we have/are doing and I answer the phone. I get "Oh, you were off today, werent you", would have paid cash to see her face.

Hi Thurman,

I believe that you are suffering from pent-up frustration, and your form of release is your temper. Since your wife appears unwilling to go to counseling, I think it would be helpful for you to go so that you can express your feelings to the counselor and learn how to prevent and control any future outbursts.

You should also learn to separate the big picture from the small stuff:

Big Picture

Your wife wants to have a loving family. Help her build on this foundation. Your best defense against any intentional disrespectful behavior is to have a strong marriage.

You cant change the past. Detach as much as you can from previous hurts. This doesnÂt mean that you have to detach from caring for your SD. You should still care for her.

You want your son to look up to you. When you lose control, itÂs a double loss in your sonÂs eyes. If SDÂs behavior towards you is passive-aggressive, show her that your buttons are not so easily pushed anymore. When you do interact, take the "who says hello first" off the table by being the first one.

Your SD is on her own and successful  so your interaction with her is minimal. You have survived the difficult teenage years. You are lucky to have a child that has done so well, and you should appreciate her achievements. On a regular basis, ask your wife how SD is doing and what she is doing. Show some interest.  it only takes a few minutes of your time.

Small Stuff

Cards, phone calls, and who says "hello" first.

The fact that you have been participating on this site for a while is a good sign. It shows that you have a conscience, you are open to outside opinion, and that you are trying to make sense of your situation. Build on that by finding a counselor with whom you can talk to directly.

Athlete

colleen,

Rage is a pretty strong word. I was wondering whether his "rages" included throwing things, breaking things, and/or shoving or hitting his SD.

Thurman, though I do feel you find the littlist things to harp on, I think your wife may be pushing both you and your SD into that.

She CAN NOT expect that you will be the same family she would have had if she stayed with her ex and had two kids with him. Just because she wants a perfect family picture on the Christmas cards does not make you so. My SD has a mother who tries this same thing (but there have been several men in the 'daddy' spot) and it just aggravates SD to no end. Could your SD be upset with her mom for doing this, but taking it out on you because it's easier than being upset with her mom? Who is her mom to try to replace her dad, anyway? The further all this pushes you from the perfect family picture you want to please your wife with, the angrier you get at SD because it's her behavior you feel is ruining the picture. Vicious cycle.

I think you all need to re-evaluate your expectations. Screw the posed, professional family portrait - just settle for one nice meal together. Snap a shot when no one is looking. Call it real life, and call it good.

JNM,

Its possibly in the eye of the beholder. If OPs wife percieves that he doesnt want her spending time with her DD alone, she may be trying to increase family time. OP has previously posted that he resents time wife spends with her DD, and is almost, if not actually, limting the time they spend togethor. I raised the question then, what will happen if OPs spouse ever becomes ill? Who will be around for her if OP isnt?

I agree with counseling -- OP should talk this out in detail, with somoene who can probe as to why everyone in the picture wants what they want.

Well, I guess we will just have to wait until thurman tells whether or not any of these speculations are true.

I also think it would be helpful to write a letter. Explain that you'd like to have a more cordial relationship. That you'll never be her father but would like some part in her life whether it is casual acquaintence, friend, counselor, whatever. That you both have one tremendous bond in common, the deep love for your DW. That you want peace with SD because of that love. That you and SD don't need to compete for the love of your DW because you both have your own special places in her heart and her heart is more than big enough to love you both.

My 2 SDs were adults when I met them but SD#1 was at odds and estranged from both her parents. They live many miles drive from us. We had a long walk and talk several years ago and came away friends. She learned to look at her mom and dad differently. They don't have to have been the perfect parents, they made mistakes, but to always remember they both love her very much. A little different than your situation, but there are some similarities.

I think TOS & KKNY are absolutely right on the button.

thurman has posted one complaint about being "offended" & "not respected" after another, all over things that are so insignificant as to be non-existent (maybe because everyone else walks on eggshells to avoid setting him off?), looking for confirmation of his right to be offended & outraged & to resent his wife's daughter.

He said, very early on, that he didn't want this girl in the home.

& it does sound like the girl & her mother try to avoid confrontation with thurman, which, given the things that set him off, likely means that they avoid him altogether.

I feel so sorry for this woman, trying to hold things together & being sabotaged by the man she thought was going to be a partner.

When the daughter graduates & moves to her own place, this husband will *not* get calmer & happier;
he'll focus his "sensitivity" on his wife & micro-manage (control) her every moment.

& she'll still be walking on eggshells.

Sylvia, I agree...The daughter already does not live with Thurman and his wife. He nit-picks her to death, but will not answer any of the questions as to how their relationship got to where it is. I suspect that he never wanted her there in the first place.

I also agree with the original follow-ups to this post. Thurman and her mother should be calling SD if THEY are running late, NOT the other way around! IF ANYTHING IS DISRESPECTFUL, IT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO RUN LATE AND NOT EVEN BOTHER TO CALL THE PERSON WHO IS WAITING ON YOU. It is also disrespectful to drop paper and expect SD to pick-up after you. It is disrespectful to expect somebody else to always be the one to say hello first or to find fault with somebody because they did not consult you before sending a card to your parents, etc., etc.

I think Thurman needs to realize that respect goes both ways. She completely understands that Thurman does not like her and picks her apart every chance he gets. She is right to avoid him every chance she gets. He is lucky that all she does is avoid him rather than doing all she can to try to convice her Mom to leave him. Why would anybody respect somebody who treats them the way Thurman treats her? I know I don't respect him and I don't have to get along with him in order to have a peaceful relationship with my mom and brother!

Come out come out wherever you are thurman. Answer to these allegations.

"I know I don't respect him and I don't have to get along with him in order to have a peaceful relationship with my mom and brother!"

Raek are you thurmans stepdaughter?

No, I just have had a tumultuous relationship with my Stepmother and I really don't believe that she scrutinized every last thing I've done in this manner. I think Thurman's expectations are absurd! If you want respect, you have to earn it and it is not earned by picking others apart. Thurman needs to learn the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated.

Just looked like a little Freudian slip of the tongue to me raek, speaking in the first person like that.

I'm not sure what you mean...If I had to get along with Thurman in order to spend time with my brother or my mom and he was picking me apart and thinking every little thing I did or didn't do was done (or not done) just to tick him off, I would not respect him either. I already don't and I don't have to put up with junk like that. KWIM?

Please bare with me raek. So you are saying you already don't respect thurman because of what you have seen him write?

You know that is really the point isn't it. I know that my husband could be in HUGE pain and just wouldn't say barely a word about it. He is 53 and grew up in that generation of males that could and were never allowed to admit to how hurt they actually are. To admit to emotional pain is an admission of weakness. And emotional weakness is NEVER allowed.

We are all coming at this "complaint" from thurman from different angles. I am coming at it from the angle that males from that generation were not allowed to express feelings, and in fact feelings were the domain of females.

I have no idea what age thurman is or who and what he is as he has never taken to post his CV. I don't even know that thurman is a "real" person.

So yes, I am trying to KWYM, but until thurman actually returns and speaks to us again, the rest is just conjecture.

Yes, I'm saying I don't respect somebody who at every turn will find something to pick-apart when it comes to his successful, hard-working, relatively respectful Step Daughter. He comes here seeking approval and confirmation of his percieved slights, but has never actually stated anything concrete as to something she has done to deserve such scrutiny. I think it stinks that his Step-Daughter should have to deal with that behavior from Thurman and I think he should consider how he disrespects her before he accuses her of disrespect.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones and I think that Therman's House is obviously made of very thin glass.

raek, thurman is actually very, very proud of his stepdaughter's achievements. Again, I don't know the history, and if someone else knows please tell me.

I don't know for how long this wonderful girl lived in their home. But the one thing I do know is that thurman has communicated to us, or at least me, that he sees his stepdaughter as something pretty damn nice.

All I see him wanting is a little recognition for his part in that.

From what I've read, he has expressed no pride in what she has done, just stated, matter-of-factly, that these are her accoplishments and this is who she is.

I've mentioned in the past, as have others, that he should seek to make amends with her. That he should change his behavior toward her and watch to see how her behavior changes toward him, but then, everytime he shows up on this board, it is to complain, nit-pick, and find imaginary reasons she must be disrespecting him. It's maddening and I'm certain that his SD understands that she can't win with Thurman, so what is the use in trying?

I mean come on, to not say hello when you walk in a room? Is that really something to complain about? I've walked in several rooms and not said hello. It means nothing. To send a card to his parents? OMG, call the press, what a disrespectful girl! To borrow something from her brother without his permission? Again, something my brother and I did all the time, BFD! Oh, and the kicker, to not pick-up something that Thurman dropped on the floor. Why would she even be expected to pick it up? Do his arms not work?

She doesn't freeload, she doesn't say mean things to Thurman, she doesn't dirty his house and then not clean it up. What the heck does he expect from her? I guess the only way he will be happy is if she kisses his hiney all of the time and doesn't stand up for herself if he, God Forbid, disrespects her in any actual or imaginary way.

*He* was late, & yet *she* was "disrespectful"...
*for calling her mother*.

I don't think the daughter is thurman's real target at all;

I think he wants to run her off so he'll be in complete control of her mother.

Abusers isolate their victims from their families, & they do it the same way magicians do magic, by misdirection.

They get you to focus your attention on their right hand while their left hand does somethiing perfectly mundane.

Abusers convince their victims that the uproar in their household or relationship is because the family, or one family member, wants to control the victim, or because the family doen't like the abuser because he's "liberating" the victim, or because they're jealous of him & want the victim all to themselves.

Abusers also talk about how their marriages are perfect, they love their wives, their wives love them, their other children are happy & well-adjusted, etc etc etc.

& their bewildered victims cooperate, acting as go-betweens or shock absorbers, begging the troublesome family member to "just try" not to set him off, etc etc etc.

An abuser will keep picking & raging & getting "offended" at the family's or family member's lack of "respect" until the family/member...
goes away.

& the abuser's in absolute control.

This guy (assuming he really is a real person) is not here to pay attention to reasonable perspectives or to get clues on how to manage his situation;
he's here to get ammunition.

"I mean come on, to not say hello when you walk in a room? Is that really something to complain about? I've walked in several rooms and not said hello. It means nothing. To send a card to his parents? OMG, call the press, what a disrespectful girl! To borrow something from her brother without his permission? Again, something my brother and I did all the time, BFD! Oh, and the kicker, to not pick-up something that Thurman dropped on the floor. Why would she even be expected to pick it up? Do his arms not work?"

I sort of think that you are being just as picky w/Thurman as he is w/SD. I'll be the first to say that he must stop doing what he is doing because it is very destructive and disrespectful as well, but you aren't considering where he may be coming from. I'm not saying this to excuse his behavior, but we don't know his background. I do understand where he is coming from in some regard.

My parents had me very late in their lives and were old enough to be my grandparents when I was born. I was raised w/different, stricter expectations than most of my friends who all had younger parents. I was taught and expected to say hello when entering a room because it was considered very rude not to do so. I also would have been expected to pick up the newspaper that was dropped. To this day if I see someone, even a stranger, drop something I will pick it up and hand it to them. People look surprised, but that's what I was taught to do, also to give up a seat on the streetcar or bus for someone who is older, hold the door open, etcetera, AND borrowing something w/out asking was a big no-no.

Manners have really eroded over the years and what is the standard today is probably not the standard of yesteryear. My mom still reminisces about how one never went downtown (san francisco) w/out wearing their hat and gloves. I still remember taking the streetcars as a kid and all of the older folks did wear hats and gloves - younger people didn't. So, maybe that's how Thurman was raised and perhaps that's why he seems so stringent and over the top.

Also, I think he did sound proud of SD AND he was wrong to think that she was up to no good when she sent his parents cards.

I was taught to always get up and let somebody older have a chair as well. I also always ask before I borrow something, but my brother, for a long time was the exception to that rule, as was I for him. Thurman was complaining that she borrowed something even though it did not bother her brother, the person she borrowed it from. I just think he is always on the lookout for something to complain about when it comes to her and then he can't understand why she would not want to talk to him. To me, it is obvious why she avoids him.

As I have said before, the only person's whose behavior you can change is your own and if Thurman changes the way he behaves, I beleive it will go pretty far toward improving his relationship with his SD. I've said that to Thurman already, as have many others on this board, but every time he shows up here, it is again to complain and to look for something he can use against her.

Raek-
I don't disagree with you one bit that Thurman's captiousness has triggered SD avoidance. The only point that I was making in my above post is that Thurman may have been raised more strickly and he doesn't realize that times have changed and that he needs to chill. It would be a nice gesture on his part to try to make amends with her and try find some common ground, additionally his wife shouldn't push for that Brady Bunch thing.

Gerina,

His wife may only be pushing for Brady Bunch becuase he tries to restrict her from seeing her DD by herself. He has to give his wife a life. I see a SD who wont be treated as a doormat. I keep asking OP, who will take care of his wife when she is old? Her MD DD or solely him? Does he not care? Or does he expect he will be the one needing care, and is trying to keep his DW from her child to isolate her.

I really think that there is a hidden agenda here, on Thurman's part. Quite awhile ago, he posted about how he had been sharing his troubles concerning his stepdaughter with a female friend or coworker, and that sent up A LOT of red flags for me. Every book or article I have read on infidelity (and I have read a lot of them) emphasizes that discussing marital problems with someone of the opposite sex is the first step on a very slippery slope...

I have noticed nothing but disdain and condemnation from Thurman for his SD, and I have seen him on several occasions, put the blame on his wife.

It could very well be that he has/is fallen out of love with his wife and is looking for an excuse to end it. The SD may be a handy target.

I have thought this for some time, but was too polite to speculate, because its none of my business, but I also had not seen the post TOS is referring to about discussing it with coworkers. She is correct in that, discussing personal problems with a coworker of the opposite gender, is a prime problem that can lead to an affair. Far better to keep the problem between husband and wife, than to bring an outsider in.

I agree, if someone is unhappy in a marriage, it should be discussed -- in this order --

1. Spouse
2. Counselor (with spouse present preferable, but if not then alone)
3. Lawyer.

Really? Discussing your feelings with a trusted friend is 'wrong'? Good freakin' grief.

I think discussing maritial problems with a coworker is in bad taste, and with one of the opposite sex can easily be interpreted as invitational.

Course you don't talk about marital problems with an adult child, or an inlaw! But a trusted friend? Of course you can.

That depends - is the trusted friend the same sex (assuming of course that you are heterosexual)? Then it may be appropriate, though just because someone is a trusted friend doesn't mean they will give you good advice. There is also the little matter that a fair number of "trusted friends" have become TOW (or TOM) - and the only thing worse than being betrayed by one's spouse is the double betrayal of being betrayed by your spouse and your best friend.

However, discussing marital problems with a friend of the opposite sex in many cases is the first step toward inappropriate emotional involvement that often leads to an affair.

Load of crap. Though it may, in a FEW cases, be a open door to inappropriate action, talking with a friend of the opposite sex does not mean you'll end up in bed with them. One of my closest friends is male, and happily married to a woman who is also a very close friend. To think that I would have an affair with him because I discussed a disagreement with DH is as unlikely as KK or TOS saying step moms should treat their children like their own. It takes two to tango, and not all men are cheating scum. Perhaps the fact you each married one colors your outlook a bit, hmmmm?

My goodness - I thought that the concept of avoiding discussing marital problems with those of the opposite sex was so widely accepted as to not even be controversial.

"One of the most common doorways into an affair is where a man and woman who are 'just friends' innocently begin to discuss problems in their primary relationship."

http://fatherhood.about.com/cs/dadsandmoms/a/affair_proof.htm

"Avoid sharing intimate or personal details about your partner or relationship with others"

http://www.afterinfidelity.com/affair_proofing.htm

Theres a line between a disagreement and maritial problems. I think most people know the difference.

Although there may be exceptions to the rule in individual cases, it is widely recognized by marriage therapists, that a primary risk factor for affairs happens with individuals sharing intimate personal information with each other on a regular basis while not confiding in their respective spouses. Intimacy can mushroom quickly when secrecy is involved and a feeling of connection develops. It is highly recommended that people avoid sharing problems with members of the opposite sex on a one to one basis.

You would have to totally have your head in the sand to ignore the fact that this is a real risk problem.

I totally trust my husband and he trusts me. We are not having problems of any kind, nor have we in the past. BUT...

A lot of people come to my husband asking for advice. I dont mind the older couples. I dont mind the single men, or the divorced men. I dont even mind the much older married ladies who are now nearing retirement. But he and I have discussed this and agreed that under no circumstances should he be listening to the problems, or giving advice to a woman, married or not, without my knowledge and consent. The same goes for me, we have agreed that I will not listen to the problems of any man without my husband's involvement.

We have both agreed not to discuss anything in our marriage with outside members of the opposite gender. Of course, we havent actually run into any rough patches yet, and several years into our relationship we are still waiting to have our first fight. SO time will tell.

Our marriage is important to us; important enough for us to both avoid the pitfalls that sometimes lead to dissatisfaction, secrecy, and opportunity for emotions to rule reason.

Very sensible Kathline --

While sensible, I agree, it just seems as if everyone has bought in to the notion that they or their 'friend' have no self control and if they share feelings they will then share a bed, period. I'm sure it happens, and happens often, but I guess I feel that to set up a rule such as Kathline's where you just don't talk to an upset, affair contender woman is in a sense saying 'I don't trust you to open your mouth and not open your fly.'

I don't believe running around spilling your guts to anyone who will listen is appropriate, and don't subscribe to that. But, I do have 2 close friends who I will use as a sounding board as I respect them, and their marriages. True, DH and I don't have anything past rare disagreements, but it's good to have someone to help you see both sides of an issue so that a disagreement doesn't turn into a continuing marital problem.

It's good to have policy, but I think it's more important to have trust, respect and strength of love. If all that keeps a fly shut is a policy, then what kind of relationship are you really protecting?