Please, run, dont walk, from this relationship. I cowtowed to my X for years, never left him alone on a Saturday nite, didnt visit my family as much as I wanted, lost touch with my friends. In the end, he bailed. This is a selfish man. RUN.

worrywart - yes I believe this is a controlling man. There is no reason why he can't go a day or so without spending time with you. There is no reason why you should not go and enjoy the full event! This is your sister and that is a bond for life. Men come and go, as you can tell by the "step" family forum you are on.

If he can't understand that this even is important for you then that's an issue he needs to work on with himself. Just tell him, that this is a big deal for you and you two will make time another night, something special for just you and him. That he can have his time with his daughter alone at this point. Tell him to take her to a dinner and a movie, something she might like. Kids love alone time with there parents, let this be his "alone" time with her and your "alone" time with your sister. Without kids, men, and all that other stuff.

Don't let him get to you.

I am sorry to say that the answer to your question is yes.

Your first instincts were to separate. Follow them. Take good care of yourself. Know that you will get to a better place one day in the future.

it may be possible that is is not so much of a control issue as it is insecurity due to the split... there are obviously more issues than just this one... I would make it clear that I will be attending all of my previously planned events and if he wants to come great... if not I will see him after (if it's not too late)... when it comes down to that simplicity you can easily see if it is insecurities or if he is indeed just wanting to control... kids at weddings are an iffy topic for most so I wouldnt bend on the bringing the daughter at the last minute it is rude ... also I, personally, unless you really are missing him and wanted to see him, wouldnt cut my evening short for sisters bach. or wedding enjoy yourself invite him to enjoy hisself... let him make his decision and let it ride... dont go back and forth

Mom of 4, you bring up an interesting point, but it makes me think, what does drive controlling personalities? Is is insecurity? Other issues? My response is unless the person is willing to get help and deal with it, it will become OPs problem. And it seems like this relationship has other issues.

Just as he had his 'boys' weekend' for his friend's wedding, you should have your 'girls' weekend' during your sister's wedding.

The only GOOD reason to change those plans is if you would truly prefer to spend some of that time with him, and that's only if you'd truly prefer him for positive reasons - not because of guilt, to placate him, etc.

If he's feeling insecure - he'll need to learn to deal with that.
If he's feeling jealous or suspicious - he'll need to learn to deal with that too.
If he can't bear to be without you for a few days, he's too needy to be married to a doctor with a demanding schedule.

Really - he just needs to be able to accept this, and if he can't -- I'm with the others.
Split now.

One of the first things controllers & abusers do is isolate the person from family, friends...support.

& one effective way is to get you to do so many idiotic, insulting, obnoxious things that your friends & family get sick of you & decide that you don't have any respect for them or care for them at all.

If you bring a small child to this wedding (& it will be *you*, you're the main invitee), even if she behaves very well, your friends will think less of you for having no manners.

& if she gets tired or cranky or makes a fuss (& she will; boyfriend will make sure she does), the couple getting married will be furious & the guests will *all* think you have no manners.

The beauty of it, from his perspective, is that both these techniques leave him completely *blameless*.

It's entirely your fault because you made the decision!

& saying that a compromise isn't a compromise if you get everything you want is baloney (& you *did* offer to change your plans to accomodate him by not spending Saturday night with your sister).

Why wouldn't he *want* you to get everything you want?

answer:

because that isn't control.

The way to exercise power is to say no:

It takes no power to agree, to be gracious, to accomodate.

Power means you get the other person to do something she doesn't want to do or you prevent her from doing what she does want to do.

"You have to prove that I'm important" is something that never ends, & it never gets any better, it gets worse.

Once he's able to engage you in "proving" his importance, you won't be able to convince him that he's important enough (he doesn't want you to convince him; then he wouldn't have you on the defensive), so he just keeps making more & more demands.

Eventually, you'll find that your life has been consumed with trying to appease someone who doesn't want to be appeased;
he just wants to keep you off balance, keep you on the defensive, keep you under control.

Is he insecure?

undoubtedly, but you can say the same about any bully.

Understanding what makes them that way won't make any difference in your quality of life when the bully is in control.

& the bully will be in control.

Please don't throw yourself under this locomotive.

Run run run.

The *best* way I know to break off a relationship is to just sever all connections:

The reason you're involved in this conflict now is because you didn't stay away from him long enough.

don't see him, don't talk to him, don't answer your phone if the call is from his number, don't return his calls, don't email, don't even say his name.

Don't go to the places you used to go together, don't drive down his street, if you find that you're in the neighborhood where he works, turn down another street.

If he comes to your home, work, or school, go somewhere safe & call the police.

*Do not* engage with him.

Do this for about 10 days to 2 weeks, & you'll be better able to see him from a fresh perspective.

The reason you're even listening to his obnoxious demands is because your connection hasn't had time to dissolve, & he knows this.

Controllers/abusers keep you as close as possible, & keep you as busy as possible dealing with their demands, to keep you from "coming up for air".

You deserve a loving, giving person who respects you, who is proud of you, who wants you to have everything you want, & who wants to give you all the good things in life.

Take care of yourself.

His requests are unreasonable.

1. You do NOT show up w/ an uninvited child to a wedding at the last minute, barring an emergency. My wedding had lots of kids - all were welcome - but most brides don't want the chaos that can bring.

And, you should not want to have to deal w/ the little girl (unless it was planned from earlier) at this event for the same reasons he didn't want to deal when he was the Best Man at his friend's wedding.

2. He had his "guys' night out" w/ his friends, you didn't squalk. Everyone needs that now and then - but this is your SISTER, for goodness sake. Be there for her or you'll regret it down the road. This is a once in a lifetime event for her - please do what you intended to do.

3. He may be insecure - I think you're a good catch - and is trying to control this situation a little too far. He should be supportive - this is family.

Go w/ your gut here. I'm not saying to run from him, but don't bend on your plans here - you'll resent him later. Only you can tell if he's pretty controlling down deep.

I think we've all been in relationships where the guys' insecurities or difficult personalities made us miss things we'd have liked to attend. It festered in me and I missed out on a great part of college life - never again. He was 'uncomfortable' around my friends - all athletes, great students, he was a big pretender. Not that this is your bf, but don't miss out on a wonderful opportunity w/ your sister.

I think it's great to be accomodating to your SO, but at this point he needs to accomodate you. I don't want to see more heartache in your future w/ this guy. This may just be one incident, so search your soul and see what your inner little voice (you know, they one we often ignore?) is telling you - is this an infrequent little disagreement, or will it be the hint of things to come. You're in the best position to judge.

Good luck,
Dana

I think this should start going into a different forum (doesn't fit stepfamilies anymore) - any suggestions?

I ended it (again). Between last week's breakup and today's I think I had the big part of my crying and mourning period. I took all of your thoughts and advice to heart, and to me there truly was a pattern throughout the relationship. The point about isolation from friends really hit home - it happened, and even though I saw him trying to reverse this (would suggest that we get together with friends, didn't put up as much of a fuss if I wanted to hang alone with a girlfriend), I always had that feeling inside that he would be resistant (i guess the bridal shower stuff is an ongoing example that things haven't changed), so I just stopped trying. I'm feeling more convinced that it is just his personality and won't change. Your thoughts and concern helped me feel strong enough to just say what I had to.

There was some initial saying of not nice things about each other (he said that I was controlling and manipulative), but it's been pretty amicable and sad after the first 20 minutes or so. We both said that it was the best decision for the both of us because of being incompatible, and that we probably stayed together this long for each other, although there were things that we were both unhappy about. Yes, I did act out at times when I was not able to keep from feeling resentful. I don't think I'll ever be able to see his side of the story.

He'll pay back the $2000 as agreed. I brought up the $10000, said (as one of you posted) that someone of integrity would pay it back, and that it was his choice whether he did it or not, even though I was very clear it was a gift when I gave it. Now that I think of it, I suppose it probably wasn't necessary to bring that into the discussion. He said this had been a concern of his since the time he accepted the gift, that i would use money against him. Calmed down a little later and said that he was not in a position to be able to give that money back and that he couldn't predict if he would ever be able to, but would keep it in mind.

The sad and hard part is seeing HIM crying over the end of this relationship. He said he'd probably erase our pictures off of his computer, and probably print out a few of them to look at occasionally to remind him of me. It's hard because I keep looking at him and wondering what would have been done differently. I asked him if he had felt insecure about me during the relationship (hoping that maybe it was insecurity that always made him act the way he did), and he said no. He tells me he still loves me and cares for me, and I do feel the caring from him, so it's very hard to feel that he was doing his controlling things on purpose. Can you truly feel love for someone and yet not recognize that you're controlling? I don't want to see him in pain, have that optimistic part of me thinking maybe we can still be friends after this, who knows what will happen in the future? And then the realistic side of me says that I will get to the point where I don't feel the emotion, and not to waste time thinking about him in my future.

I'm scared that my hopeful side will come out and make me want to find another way for things for us to work. It's difficult to accept that sometimes things just won't work despite best efforts (my sister very strongly emphasized this), but I know that the harder path is the right one.

Yes, at first you'll be torn in 2 directions;
as you say, your optimistic side & your distress at seeing him in distress will tug at your heartstrings.

That's why it's important to *not* see him, so time will dissolve that tie that's tugging at you.

Listen to your family, fling yourself into your studies, & take care of yourself.

I wish you the best.

Hi, there

Is he a boyfriend or a husband?

If he's a boyfriend, cut your losses and move on.

If he's a husband, that's more complicated.

xoxox

Honey,

I, for one, don't care if you use this forum as this began as a step-situation. And, southern and I both attended med. and dent. schools, so we have that bond of higher education.

I think your situation reminds me more of the relationship I ran from in college, though not quickly enough, than of the picture I painted of my marriage, which has been happier. There was money there, too, but my parents one day said, "It's not worth it - let it go and get away from him." I think about that chunk of change, but they were right, it wasn't worth it. He was the one uncomfortable w/ my athletic friends, professional student friends, etc, to the point that I missed out on so much as I opted, often, to just skip whatever was going on and see a movie w/ him. Big mistake in retrospect.

Do you have a place to go? I know you live w/ him. Can you move out quickly? I agree that you need to not be put through the contact w/ him right now - distance will help you realize that you've made the right decision, that the pain you feel right now will dissipate, that there is a reason for everything, and it could be Mr. Right at your sister's wedding. Just give yourself a chance to move on w/o the rollercoaster of emotions you will feel by seeing him all the time.

Blessings,
Dana

The point about isolation from friends really hit home - it happened, and even though I saw him trying to reverse this (would suggest that we get together with friends, didn't put up as much of a fuss if I wanted to hang alone with a girlfriend), I always had that feeling inside that he would be resistant (i guess the bridal shower stuff is an ongoing example that things haven't changed), so I just stopped trying.

This is SO CLASSIC of a controlling person.

The sad and hard part is seeing HIM crying over the end of this relationship. He said he'd probably erase our pictures off of his computer, and probably print out a few of them to look at occasionally to remind him of me.

Oh, give me a break. Now manipulating your emotions. Apparently effectively:

I keep looking at him and wondering what would have been done differently..... I asked him if he had felt insecure about me during the relationship (hoping that maybe it was insecurity that always made him act the way he did), and he said no. He tells me he still loves me and cares for me, and I do feel the caring from him, so it's very hard to feel that he was doing his controlling things on purpose. Can you truly feel love for someone and yet not recognize that you're controlling? I don't want to see him in pain, have that optimistic part of me thinking maybe we can still be friends after this, who knows what will happen in the future?

RUN RUN RUN. It is not your job to figure him out or fix him. This is the way he is, he will not change, and will only get worse. He has asked you, no, is he is pressuring you and guilting you, to skip a very important occasion with your *family* and *friends*. A normal person DOES NOT DO THAT.

If you stay with this person, in a thousand tiny ways, he will chip away at you. You will notice some, and not others. Or excuse them in some way, whether it is because he manipulates you or because you were trying to avoid conflict. "didn't put up as much of a fuss" Or because he will twist things around so you agree to do or act in a certain way, but afterwards think "What just happened?"

RUN. It is NOT worth it. He will NOT change and only get worse. I finally woke up after 15 years. 15 years wasted. 15 years I cannot get back. 15 years that I pushed my family and friends away for someone who was more than happy to tear me apart, bit by tiny bit. It is impossible to fathom how someone could do that to another person, especially when things are "good" in between. Don't waste time trying to figure it out, or playing the "what if" or "if I do this.." game. It's futile and damaging. Get out now.

I went to all my stuff this weekend. You might criticize me on this - but I did have him come to wedding on weekend. He missed ceremony b/c dropping off daughter, but attended reception with me. I figured we were being friendly enough that we could still go together and enjoy the celebration. I think it was more difficult for him than me. I worried that I would be emotional thinking of all the wedding thoughts I had that he was a part of, but I did not feel it too much.

I do have a place to stay (with sister) if I need to. I feel stronger over the weekend, feel myself separating from this relationship emotionally. I think we will work things out with him moving out, he'll stay with friends who live near his work (about 30-45 min drive). I did ask that he not do this without telling me though - I do not like the thought of coming back to apt one day and realizing that I'm here on my own now, so he said that he would let me know.

The logistics of moving is tough though. We'll have to pay rent through September, I'll be out of town a week at the end of September, and not sure whether to put my stuff in storage and live with sister (i feel bad, it'll be right after her wedding, but she's ok with that), or look to move in to a new place in Sept and pay overlapping rent until this place is rented out. It's a pretty nice apt in the area, so I think it won't be hard to rent.

I was at the bookstore and there was a whole section about toxic personalities, damaging relationships, etc. I found exactly the personality that he fit - one book called it the "clinger". Stems from some insecurity early in life so that the person ends up needing to constantly feel validated in order to feel secure. At first, it's attractive because they are so interested in spending every moment with you, but then it get to the point where women in these relationships feel like they are having the life sucked out of them because of the enormous amount of effort it takes to keep the guy happy. (Very true of me, don't pursue my hobbies as I did when single, feel tired a lot, have had a lot of unintentional weight loss). Book said that these guys often will report history of having been cheated on (most likely because women were trying to escape the suffocation)- which is in his history.

I've been toying with the idea of getting the book for myself & leaving it out for him to see (friend says wouldn't hurt- but what am i expecting or wanting out of it?). Part of my "fix-it" personality. Friend was right though - what is my point? I'm not trying to fix him for me, but I guess I want to him to realize what he expresses as love and togetherness IS suffocating and controlling. Whenever we've argued, he's always said that I just want to be right... I guess this is proof of that!

"Whenever we've argued, he's always said that I just want to be right..."

see, this makes no sense.

If you are right, of course you "just want to be right".

There's no way to win that argument; you'll always lose because it's structured so that you...always lose.

my 2 cents:
don't buy the book, don't do *anything*.

Stop.
Breathe in.
Breathe out.
Take a step back (literally. take one step back.)
Disengage.

The physical motions reinforce the mental disengaging.

Take care, don't let the managing or engineering of the move get you bogged down, & stop thinking about this guy;
he's in your past.

Get back to your hobbies, spend time with your friends & your sister, & *study*.

Re-discover yourself.

I am so proud of you for taking this difficult step, but I think you are definitely doing the right thing. Personally, I would get out of the house ASAP and pay overlapping rent for a few weeks. It's worth it to get to start moving on. Stay strong! It will be hard but SOOOOOO worth it!

Worrywart -- good for you!

Hi everyone, apologizes for this not being a stepfamily issue, but I have gotten such helpful feedback from you.

Can these people change these personalities if they truly want to?

I am now in my own apartment. I am still in contact with ex-BF now, and will have to continue to due to us still being on the lease of our former apartment (easier for manager to just have to deal with one of us, and that's me). He is living with friends, is looking for a place of his own.

Prior to moving out of old apt, I felt I needed to say my thing, we made some time for me to talk. I made it clear that the reason for me ending things was the control issue, and not any of the other things that had been problems. He had nothing to say after I talked through these topics for about 30-40 minutes. I asked for his thoughts or feedback, he said that he had none because he was just there to listen to what I had to say. I asked for him to give me some criticisms of what he felt my wrong actions were. He kept mum, saying that he didn't want to do any mudslinging, which is what he felt I had just done. I went to Hawaii for my sister's wedding for 6 days.

When I returned, 4 days before the move, he tells me that he wished he had been more open and actually talked to me about things that day and that he feels that if he had, we would probably still be living together in the apartment. Says that the reason he didn't talk was because he was protecting himself emotionally, and was shutting things off. Tells me he feels that breaking up is the wrong thing to do, that because we have a strong love and caring for each other, we should at least give ourselves the chance to work on things, with a clear understanding of the issues. Also, that he wants to be the supportive kind of person who is just happy for me to spend time with family and friends (without him), and that he would want us to go into counseling as well during this "to make sure that we're doing things the right way".

Every objection I have brought up to him (haven't we already been trying for the past year of dating; people are who they are, their personalities don't change, etc), he is somehow able to rebut, and have a good reason for why. He is very willing to take the risk of getting back together and finding ourselves in the same unhealthy relationship. I find it very difficult to trust what he says, yet at the same time, I do see the lifestyle changes he has made for himself between his past and present.

So the position I'm in now: I told him I needed my space and that we should have some period of time to not be in contact with each other.

Do you think, (or have you had experience) that people can truly change this kind of behavior?

Bubbeleh, get away from this guy already!

Yes, you love him, yes, he loves you, yes, he has problems and pain you worry about. Don't confuse those things with reasons to stay. Not everyone we love or who loves us is someone with whom we should live.

Listen to your own description of that conversation: "Every objection I have brought up to him ... he is somehow able to rebut." Yeah, you think? There is NO point in having this kind of conversation. Where does it go? To you second-guessing yourself and feeling like if you can't satisfy him with your reasons for wanting out, then you can't go. Bananas!

These conversations are worse than pointless. Do NOT let him drag you into them. Just politely but firmly say something VERY SHORT like, "Cuthbert, we've been over all this ground before. I've listened to what you have to say, and I've told you everything I can. I'm sorry to hurt you, and I wish you well, but I have made my decision. Goodbye."

Then he'll probably say something like, "But we haven't discussed XYZ." Then you can say:

"Cuthbert, we've been over all this ground before. I've listened to what you have to say, and I've told you everything I can. I'm sorry to hurt you, and I wish you well, but I have made my decision."

Him: "Listen, I just want to know WHY. You owe me that much."

You: "Cuthbert, we've been over all this ground before. I've listened to what you have to say, and I've told you everything I can. I'm sorry to hurt you, and I wish you well, but I have made my decision."

Him: "But I never realized how much I would miss you. I am crying every day. You were totally right about everything you said about my being controllling. I swear I can change. Here, look at this book I have been reading."

You (although ideally you are long gone by now): "Cuthbert, we've been over all this ground before. I've listened to what you have to say, and I've told you everything I can. I'm sorry to hurt you, and I wish you well, but I have made my decision. Goodbye." (Exit.)

Do you see the pattern, here? I'll teach you a little lawyer's trick. When a lawyer is conducting a deposition (I think interrogators do this, too), and the witness is not giving the answer the lawyer wants, the lawyer can try asking the same question, perhaps reworded, 3 times. Most people will, by the third time, be more forthcoming. (Like this: "Was it his car?" "Yes." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "Take your time; are you absolutely positive?" "Well, it looked very much like his car.") I guess it is because we like to be accomodating and helpful, or because we are used to the reason for people asking us the same question again being that they didn't understand our answer the first time. Whatever. If the witness's lawyer was on the ball, s/he practiced this with the witness, because it is VERY hard to keep saying "No" repeatedly, let alone "Cuthbert, we've been over all this ground ..." -- UNLESS you are prepared in advance. So practice this with a friend, maybe! It feels really odd to do it, and of course he will object, but you CAN do it. Say it once, and then leave. If you see him again and he starts in, say it again. Repeat as necessary. Believe me, it works MUCH better than trying DIFFERENT explanations.

It would be one thing if you just had vanished without a word, but you have been more than forthcoming already. He gets the point, he's just refusing to accept it. You don't owe him any explanations or any closure. You are not responsible for his feelings and welfare after you go (and the less you can think about it, the faster you are getting over it yourself).

Worry:

I am going through the exact same thing right now. I sent you an e-mail.

"Every objection I have brought up to him (haven't we already been trying for the past year of dating; people are who they are, their personalities don't change, etc), he is somehow able to rebut, and have a good reason for why. He is very willing to take the risk of getting back together and finding ourselves in the same unhealthy relationship. I find it very difficult to trust what he says, yet at the same time, I do see the lifestyle changes he has made for himself between his past and present."

"He is very willing to take the risk of getting back together and finding ourselves in the same unhealthy relationship."

Yes, I bet he is.

He has a lot to gain & nothing to lose.

Can these people change these personalities if they truly want to?

Well, yes. If they truly want to.

BUT, and here is the key:

They truly DON'T want to, but they will do anything to convince you that they do. Anything to make you second guess yourself, anything to convince you to give them a second, third, fourth, fifth...ad nauseum...chance.

Why?

Because being the way they are *works for them*.

It doesn't make sense, it's not normal, it's beyond reason, but, it is all they know, and....

*It works for them*.

They have no reason to change, because given enough time, they wear down their victim, and once again, they have the only type of relationship that they can sustain. One that is at the expense of another person's heart and soul.

Weed hit it exactly & said it perfectly.