quick survey:

how many SP's out there (especially noncustodial SP's) ***DO NOT*** think your SK's are spoiled?

Serenity..NCSP of 2 SS s...One spoiled, One not spoiled.......

FSD is TOTALLY spoiled (but it's not just my perception, it's reality). FDH's son, on the other hand, not spoiled at all. FDH has given him money here and there and he gave him a used car, but he's always appreciative.

I don't think it is spoiling young children, I think it is enabling grown children that is the problem. I know a young girl who was the most spoiled child I have ever seen. She was born with a cleft palate and other related problems like danger of hemorrhaging which she did a couple of times. She ruled everyone around with her crying and screaming, but me. I asked her one day if she did it to get what she wanted and she just grinned. The point is she grew up to become a very nice young lady, very gracious. Very thoughtful of everyone around her.

Ima - of course we can't stay on topic. Did you ever think KKNY would let this thread go without delving into college tuition? FD set this one up perfectly for KKNY!

Sorry FD, I can't relate to the college tuition thing since both of the kids i have to reference are fairly young and we're nowhere close to dealing with that. I do get frustrated that almost every thread goes in the "college tuition" direction.

BUT, having said that, if I had the money to pay my kids' (bio or step) college tuition, I would do it in a heartbeat so that I can be sure they went to college. I didn't have that chanceand my parents didn't push it hard enough. I got graduated and planned on taking a year off. I got pregnant, married, divorced and now I am a single mom (not for much longer). I don't see myself ever going back to school, but I have given DS no choice. He will go come hell or high water. He will apply for every scholorship, grant and financial aid available. I DO think it's a privilage to have college tuition paid for, but I don't think it makes someone spoiled. DS will work while he's in high school and college and I don't want him living at home while in college. I'd like for him to know how to have a home and be responsible for himself before he has a wife and kids. Of course, all of this is what I want to happen; not reality. Reality may be very different.

Otherside - ODD has am classes then goes to work. Her job is a 9-5 position, however, they allow her to work 9:30-5:30 so that she can accomdate a school schedule. Her evening classes don't start until 6:30 or 7:00. YDD works at a real estate office which is open 7 days a week, and allows her to work 6 days a week, to accomdate a school schedule. I think if a person is motivated, they will find a way to achieve their goals. It isn't that difficult to find jobs that aren't strictly 8-5, m-f, and many of them do pay more than minimum wage. If a person is willing to live a frugal life, there is no reason why they can't put themselves through school.

KKNY - I wasn't aware that UC Davis was considered an unchallenging school - thanks for the update.

Ima - thanks for the back-up, I was starting to feel like I was on a debate board for the "short bus" alumni. lol!:-)

I am not saying UC Davis is a challenging school or not, but if it were my DD getting As and Bs with that schedule, I would be suggesting she cut back on work, get all As and look at transferring to Berkeley or UCLA.

And Ashley, the topic started off with college, etc. But count on the SM brigade to critize whatever.

ODD is not interested in transfering to another school, & I don't see why would. She gets all As a majority of time as it is, so there is no need pressure her to achieve better grades.

My children are adults who support themselves, and make their own decisions. There is no place or need for me to tell them how or where they should achieve their goals, especially since they are doing an excellent job of it as it is. Yes they do at times ask for advice or my opinion, which I openly share with them, but they know what they want and are doing what they need to do, to get it.

Dogdog, If they feel they are not challenged enough with that workload, maybe you can nudge them into taking a few more classes,I d suggest Weaponry, Advanced Japanese and Hip Hop Dancing, just to be sure they are well rounded......Sounds to me like they (and you) are doing a great job:)

ROTFLMAO! Thanx dotz!

serentiy --

Of my two step sons BOTH are spoiled however only one ACTS spoiled.

Its one thing to be dotted upon, but another to be dotted upon and never satisfied.

One child is appreciative of the things we do for him and always says thank you and takes care of his things etc... The other, will look at what you do for him and complain you don't do more. I guess thats the difference that bothers me personally.

kkny what kind of job allows you to do homework there? I knew a guy who was a night security and he could do college homework at work, but it was a very low paid job, what dogdog says her DDs have well paid jobs. well paid jobs won't allow you to do any homework there.

who cares about staying on topic? i started this thread and I do not care so why would imamommy or anyone else care to stay on topic?

ashley you are so right. SM acts very maternal with DD. I find it funny. SM told me that she never wanted children until she has met X, so she is also very maternal with X's son (understandable due to his age-8). But DD is not a kid and sometimes it looks funny when SM is babying her.

My surprise is not with working full time and going to school full time (I went full time to graduate school at nights while working full time during the day) but with tuition. Most people are not able to pay tuition in full neither undergraduate nor graduate tuition. It simply cannot be done, so either dogdog's girls have some other people contributing (such as turns out boyfriends share expenses) or they take loans or whatever else.

iamommy you cannot compare university (especially a decent one) to anything else. i took some classes in a community college (needed credits for renewal of certifcate) and i could get A without doing much just being awake. If I would not be awake I would probably get B. ha. can't compare to undergraduate or graduate. there is also a HUGE difference between universitities, we have one university about an hour drive from me that you have a joke a dog can graduate from. and students get in with high school GPA of 2.0. Of course you can work and go full time to this kind of school. But what's the point? Most people want education not just easy degree.

FD

I agree, very very few highpaying jobs will allow homework consistently to be done on company time -- everyone has down time now and then. For SMs to insist that oh anyone can do this, I find not true, and just a way to justify discouraging Dad from helping out.

finedreams - maybe you could get a job in a grocery store, they are union positions that pay very well & give you benefits. They also offer schedules that are extremely flexible to accomodate schooling. Perhaps you could live a simpler life, that would more inexpensive. There are ways of doing it, and people have and do, all the time, you just have to be willing.

To be fair, there are some jobs that will allow for some homework to be done on the clock, for a relatively young person to earn their own tuition, and that permit full-time employment and schooling... Mine for example. I work for a state university library, and while my job certainly isn't rocket science it also isn't McDonald's. Thing is many typical average-Joe paper-pushin' clerical-type jobs like mine (in the private & public sectors) are such where... let's just say... one can often get the actual job completed (and completed WELL, even **more than** completed) in less hours than the standard workday typically is long. And my employer, of course, also comes with the benefit of ***free tuition***, which I took full advantage of and many people do, to complete undergrad & graduate studies. So it was often the case that myself and most other co-workers & colleagues (including my boss who was working on her 2nd Masters until recently) could squeeze in a few hours a week of school-related research or termpaper writing in a given week no problem, still doing a great job with our regular work.

HOWEVER... my university's free tuition program for its full-time employees only permits 3 classes maximum ('full-time' load is 5 classes) per semester. And trust me, that is plenty when you're trying to juggle work, attending classes, staying late at work to make up time for being at class, studying, school projects, and maintaining homelife and any kind of social life or relationship or hobby. Now I admit I've always been an 'A.D.D.' type who takes a long time writing a paper (and a perfectionist who always put way more effort into it than I should have), but I have to admit that I'm flabbergasted (and respectfully awed!) by the idea of any approximately-20-year-old who can: a) land such a plum job, which has either the free tuition benefit or a salary that can permit someone taht age to 100% pay their own tuition & living expenses ***without ALREADY having a college degree***, b) work full-time at said job, which really amounts to longer hours than full-time b/c of 'make-up' hours for time spent in class, c) do a FULL-TIME courseload, and do WELL at it, d) have any kind of a life whatsoever or a drop of energy left after all that.

I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE, Dogdog... perhaps your kids really are that extremely rare claptrap-brained whiz-kid go-get-em-tiger future Bill Gates or Donald Trump wunderkinder... and if so, more power to 'em, and I bow down. But it's extremely rare, and there's gotta be a catch in there somewhere (they landed super-plum jobs b/c their employer is one of your cousins, or there's a trust fund or some other pile of money somewhere that's landed in their laps, or their job comes with free tuition like mine, or ----and I SWEAR I'm not trying to be snarky or mean suggesting this--- they're high-end escorts or running a meth lab. (Really, I'm just kidding about those last two.)

Either some crucial detail is not being included here or Dogdog's daughters should start conducting seminars, Tony Robbins style, for how the rest of us can run our lives better ---and start making even more money than they already are!

Nothing missing except motivation. They want an education, so they are getting it the only way they can. I find it odd that so many think it is so hard, or unusual. IMHO, it is the only way it should be done.

btw, Bill Gates and Donald Trump both came from well off families and both attended Ivy schools, which I am certain their parents paid for. I am not saying I think the schools made the person.

My employer pays for graduate courses, but they do limit the number of courses.

Again, I think there is a big disconnect between expectations, college and who should pay.

Kkny, excellent point about Gates and the Donald.

Dogdog, would you mind giving us a bit more clues as to what your daughters' jobs are? I understand you may wish to not reveal too much information, but just a bit more info would be helpful, like "ODD is in real estate" or "YDD is in insurance sales".... no company names or locations or even exact Job Titles necessary... the general 'field' alone will probably tell us a lot, as some fields definitely are more lucrative than others.
And again, I stand by what I said: if they, not yet being college grads, are earning enough money just through these jobs to pay for every single thing in their lives including full California college tuition and they're not involved in any business ventures that we might see on, say, The Sopranos... then truly: kudos to them and they could probably teach many of us a thing or two!

To expect it of the average under-21 (or heck, even the average under-71), though, I don't think would be realistic as I think these girls would truly be the exception.

kkny, Bill Gates also left Harvard in his Jr yr.
I can't imagine you think he hasn't done well enough.
I think dogdogcrazy should be very proud of her daughters. Her SD that had everything paid for including a car is the one that is in her 3rd college in 6 yrs after failing in the first two.

dogdog, why would I have a grocery store job when i have college degree and a professional job with benefits and pension plan? I am not sure what you are refering to. i said that even with my decent salary I had to take loans to pay for my grad. degree. Grocery store job would certainly not pay for my degree and why would i quit my job to work in a grocery store? If you are refering to undergarduate, it was a very long time ago (24 years ago), i am pretty old and I never went full time to undergraduate. i went part time at night and worked full time during the day, i was married very young and we were on our own both in school at night and working during the day renting an apartment with my husband. So I do not know what is that to do with me. It is pretty irrelevant. I am not sure what you are refering to.

exactly, kkny, to justify why dads should not pay for education (stepkids education). Luckily some dads know better to put children's interests first.

I understand about working and going to school full time, a lot of us did, but I still do not understand paying full time tuition without taking a loan and no one helping with a penny. I don't know anyone who can.

yes there is something else that dogdog mentioned such as live-in boyfriends working and contributing. yes with 2 incomes it could be doable. with one NO. so dogdog situation is not excatly what we are dicussing, two incomes is not the same as one. when somebody else works in a household and pays the bill (partial or all) you cannot really call yourself: "i do it all alone". not the same.

so if one lives with their parents and parents pay the bill all or a part of it, it is not really different from living with a partner, BF, GF, or a spouse who share the bill. so it is not the same as supporting yourself.

If all of us would only have to pay a half of our bills of course we would afford to not take loans. but one person who does not make a huge amount of money, lives on their own, and has no one to pay tuition, could not do it. that's my point.

we forget here that we all live in different states and it is not that easy to just move somewhere (plus it takes time to become resident of the state). so average annual tuition is about 10-15K so you are telling me 18-year-old girls can fully support themselves, live on their own AND pay 10K for schooling wihout any outside help. so excatly how much could they be making to have extra 10K laying around? And they had all this money right away to pay for the first semester? yeah...i didn't think so.

yes California's public education is often less expensive than other states but not all of us live in CA>

According to their web site, you would need to take 45 units per year in order to graduate in four years.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were attending the Extension school. Did dogdog actually ever say that they were enrolled in a degree granting program, as opposed to a certificate program?

I looked up their tuition and in freshman year it is about 11K a year, more later. dogdog said they are enrolled full time. I don't know what is full time in their college, but I assume full time is something what allows you to graduate on time, otherwise it is part time or half time.

Extension school could be a different story, I myself went to undergraduate on extended program part time. So it did take me 6 years instead of 4. But it is not what dogdog said, she said they are enrolled full time. Hmmm

Listen, I am certain dogdog's children are doing fine, but if they are attending full time college and working full time, then they are in the .000001% or whatever of the population that can do so. And Phelps won 8 gold medals -- so anyone can do that??? I dont think so.

My point is it if some SMs think a child can make it through college on their own, that isnt the real truth in my book.

Todays WSJ had an interesting column (labeled the cheapstake, in the personal finance section). The writer discuses his children. One child is finishing college, which he and wife helped pay for. Other might be moving in after college. He said even though he is a cheapstake (that is point of his columns), he wont charge rent.

Personal sample...10 children in my family...4 , no interest in college....6, fully funded the way thru with NO help from parents by selves...Up to and including a Masters here and there.....Of course it can be done...Why the checking stats, websites, to prove dogdog a liar??? yeah and I heard her and the kids knocked off a liquor store last night too......

Two of my kids moved in for short periods of time, as adults. One for three months, one for seven. I charged them room and board.

The reason I charged room and board was so that they learned that their paycheck was to pay bills first, and that there is a cost to living as an adult. Its not like high school, where your pay can get spent on fun things. They thought it was horribly unfair of me, which is probably why one stayed only three months and the other 7 months. They felt that if they had to pay rent, they may as well have their own place.

But, without telling them I was going to do so, I took the room and board, put it into an account, and when they left, I gave it to them to help them get settled into their new apt.

If you have options available to you, other than doing it on your own, you probably use those options. When you do not have parents, or do not have parents who can financially assist you, you must find your own way. What other option is there? Should we all just lay down and die when we get out of high school?
I believe that if my kids or anyone else's, is living outside the family home, without support of their parents, they are doing it on their own, whether they live with a room mate or bf who shares expenses or not. If they are meeting their financial obligations without the assistance of their parents, whether they live alone or with someone else with whom they share expenses, they are still self supporting.
I never said my kids did not get loans for their education, someone else here chose to put that out, and others chose to go along with it. Your mistake. I also mentioned before that both DDs have always applied for every grant & scholarship available to them, from Oil of Olay to Jimmy Hoffa, however that does not change the fact they are self supporting, it merely shows that they are eager & willing to find ways to be self supporting. Even with the loan ODD got for some of her tuition, she is still self supporting & being responsible for her own costs & choices, she has however, derferred the payment of some of those costs, until the education allows her to gain employment that will allow for repayment of that loan.
I also believe part of it, involves a willingness to live a frugal life. If you don't allow yourself to fall victim to materialism, if you can live without the luxuries of cable, fancy cars, designer clothes/labels, the latest techno gadgets, starbucks, eating out, etc., supporting yourself & your education is absolutely possible, and it is done every day.
Do you think so little of yourselfs, that you don't believe under the same circumstances, you would be able to do the same? That you would not be able to be a self supporting, educated, responsible adult?

I went to school taking 15-20 credits, working 3-4 part-time jobs, single mom to 3 kids - and a car that was breaking down constantly and shouldn't have been on the road. I got mostly A's, had 3.85 GPA. Was active on the Student Senate. Made sure I fed my kids at night, they did their homework, and took a bath. Then at ten, long after they'd gone to bed and after I'd tidied up the kitchen I started doing homework. Usually I fell asleep around 2-3:00, got up at 5 a.m. and did it all over again. Had no choice, but did it.

"My point is it if some SMs think a child can make it through college on their own, that isnt the real truth in my book."

And some moms, dads, stepdads, siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. think the same thing! So why just the focus on stepmoms other than the thread's title?

"Usually I fell asleep around 2-3:00, got up at 5 a.m. and did it all over again. "

We are supposed to believe you functioned on 2-3 hours of sleep a night? I am glad I never met you driving down the road. Sleep deprivation is a major cause of fatal vehicular accidents, not to mention on-the-job injuries and other mistakes that cost people their lives. Living on too little sleep is nothing to be proud of.

TOS, you don't believe fingers?

Functioning long term on 2-3 hours of sleep a night, and getting a 3.85 average - no, I don't. The 3.85 average is believable, but not the sleep.

Colleen, I d need to see websites, definitions, statistics(no matter how outdated or irrelevant)to see how tired SM s endangered the populace with industrial accidents... Groan....

ouch. went to bed at 3 and got up at 5, a night after night? no, not doable.

2 hours of sleep every night, 20 credits, 4 jobs, 3 kids and 3.85 GPA. everything sounds realistic but no, not 2 hours of sleep.

my mom did the same thing when she went back to college minus the single mom... but dad was working crazy contrustion worker hours that took him out of town alot.... It is doable... not desirable but doable.

I agree, Mom of 4. Doable, but not desirible.

2 hours of sleep a day? no, it is not doable because most people would fall asleep driving or even walking (yes it happens too) or sitting etc Or simply won't be able to get up in the morning. 2 hours of sleep is not doable for more than few days. if some unique people have this capability, it is an exception.

finedreams, I don't think it is doable every day. But that kind of schedule where you get only 2-3 hours of sleep a night for 3 -5 nights a week CAN be done.

I was in the military and I know it first hand. Yes, it can be done. Is it desirible? NO. Not only is it not desirible, it is not healthy and does have long-term health affects whether the person knows it or not.

I would prevent my child from having to do this if I could.

couple of days a week, but not every night, right?

I'm a SM and my SD has lived with us since she was eight. No relationship with real mom except trying to be "best buddies" and telling her she doesn't have to mind us or follow our rules. She's 19, 2nd year in college, lives with us, no job, refuses to even try to get one. Has unlimited checking account and AmEx gold card. Comes and goes as she pleases, stays out all night. Extremely disrespectful to me, is either yelling at DH or kissing his butt because she wants something. Says she's never leaving. DH just lets her go to avoid conflict. Has put a huge strain on my marriage, if not for my 6 year old I'd have given up years ago.

My husband and I have two children together. We will be paying for their tuition and books, but they will have to get jobs for the other stuff.

My husband has three children with his ex-wife. (One not biologically his, so he has no legal obligation to support her, although he does still think of her as his daughter. She was the result of his ex-wife's infidelity.) Anyway, we will also pay half of their tuition and books. They are both learning disabled and one is definitely not "college material," though, so I'm not sure what our actual obligation will be. They are both a few years away from college.

We will pay for school not because anyone is or feels like they are "entitled," but because we want all of our children to have as much of a head start as we can give them. I support it all 100%. I worked to put myself through college and my DH enlisted in the military. If we can make it easier on our kids than it was on us, we'll do what we can.

But we won't make it too easy, if you know what I mean. There will be rules and expectations... I will support no child, step or bio, who doesn't work hard in school. No child - his, mine or ours - will be supported through college on the "eight-year plan." What we do for one, we do for the others. If we can't do for all, we won't do for any. Period.

My skids do enjoy a better standard of living than my children do, from a financial standpoint, anyway, in part because I have chosen to be a SAHM and in part because their mother has always made more $$$ than my DH does, but to me, that's neither here nor there. It just is what it is. My middle SD claims that she can get anything she wants from her mother by batting her lashes and shedding a few crocodile tears, but she also knows that doesn't work with us. I'm thinking she may have problems as she gets older. My skids are basically good kids. They are more appreciative of us than they are of their mom, but I think it's because we expect it and she does not.

Here is a link that might be useful: Step Lively

There are nights now that I don't get even 2 hours of broken sleep - menopause. I don't drive impaired. I am fully alert and don't drink coffee or take anything but a vitamin. Haven't been sick in years.

I put myself through school and it was tough. I didn't live on 2 hours of sleep a night, or anything that awful, but I did spent most of my time either doing schoolwork or trying to make money. I didn't have much fun in those days.

I don't want my daughter or my stepkids to spent their youth working themselves to death, or being overtired or undernourished. I will happily pay for their tuition and their books at school. However, if they want money for designer clothes or beer, they'll have to earn that themselves. I do want them to learn the value of money.

"Grocery store job would certainly not pay for my degree and why would i quit my job to work in a grocery store?"

You are misinformed. My brother works as a store manager for a major grocery store chain. He did all of his training and education for that job within the company. He makes a six figure salary.

mom1sm2, I still do not see any particular reason for myself to quit my job. I am happy for your brother, but i love what i do and it pays well. I am not particularly intrested in switching careers just to prove that grocery store jobs pay well. I do not want to work in a grocery store. Neither does DD. fair enough?

I agree with stepmomofthree. DD does not pay her own tuition. But she pays all of her living expenses 90%. She bikes 40 minutes (yes, i do not exagerate) one way to work and 20-30 minutes one way to college. Cannot afford a car (plus hates driving) and wants to save on public transportation pass (costly where she lives). She got some muscles on her legs from cycling daily. She also works several VERY non glamorous jobs to pay for her living expenses besides being full time in college. But certainly she cannot pay her own tuition.

and no she is not going to work in a grocery store (in case people wonder haha) and get her training there, she wants to be somehting else aftre she gets her college degree.

If you can afford to pay your kids way through college you should. In a perfect world we could all pay for our kids classes and books. We have twins. They will need tutition and books at the same time. Unless I become a Doctor or Jonathan get's famous it's not in the cards for the girls to have college completely paid for.

I am still pretty young so alot of my personal friends are still in college. I am very aware of how some of these kids struggle working long hours,studying and going to classes. One girl I know works TWO jobs and is going to school full time for Social Work. I am equally aware of the opposit side of the spectrum where some of them have new cars, really nice condo's (better than mine and I work 50 hours a week!) paid for college tuition and don't have to work because mommy or daddy is flipping all the bills. They also stay high all the time. Where they get money for weed is beyond me...I'm guessing the money daddy wires them every week.

There is a fine line between helping a child out (assuming you CAN) and enabling an adult child to grow up by still paying for everything without them taking any of the responsibility. They could at least work part time to make their car payment....it is the least a decent person would do considering the cost of higher education. Why would they though if the parents are willing to do it for them?

P.S. I have very little respect for the people I know who are sponging off of their parents. They make me and the majority of my other friends who have to WORK for everything we have sick to our stomachs. There is no reason to be 24 years old and needing to have your parents send you grocery money while you are hitting bars every single weekend. If their parents had a clue what they did with the money they send they'd probably STOP SENDING IT!