Oh and "brats"?

I have trouble believing most SMs are better than the childs mother.

What I dont have trouble beleiving is that most moms wouldnt call their children brats.

So I keep saying this board is educational -- as to how SMs regards children.

As a mother, I would absolutely also not allow my children to go to counseling with my ex-husband's wife.

If he is ok with how they talk to him, then it is really none of your business. If it really bothers you, then perhaps you should reconsider the relationship.

By 13 and 15, most typical teenage girls WILL schedule sleepovers or shopping trips whenever they get a chance - of course that would take precedence over spending time with Dad (or Mom). Sleepovers kind of have to occur on weekends during the school year, and they can hardly expect their friends to plan everything around EOW absences for visitation. With some teenagers, it seems like you barely see them even when you live with them full time. Trying to force them to give up fun things in an attempt to enforce visitation will just backfire. Does their father live close enough that they can come there after/before shopping or sleepovers?

Children, BKids or SKids that at 15 are already stealing (yes taking anything from their father's house WITHOUT ASKING to their BM' house is STEALING), cussing at their father and hitting him on occasion are not brats, are deliquent teenagers in need of intervention and intensive counseling before they "major" to something worse.

Brats is too sweet a words as everybody, BM, SM or teacher or juvenile counselor or psychologist, with some common sense and not a compulsion to defend any SK on principle, will tell you.

Accepting children, BK or SK, does not mean condoning any kind of behaviour while changing is something that these girls will have to do if they don't want to land eventually in jail: this is where stealing and hitting people will eventually get you.

To the OP: do postpone the marriage and get your fiance to counseling as he must start parenting these girls before they end in heap of trouble.
If he disagree or minimize the problem (that is already HUGE and if you marry will only worsen), then agree to disagree with him, keep your own house and explain to him that you can not marry somebody with values on personal respect and common courtesy are so different from yours.

Ah and kkny: would you find acceptable for your own daughter to hit you and swear at you ?
I bet you not.
So why should be acceptable for these daughters to do it to their father ?
Just because is their father and not the mother ?
And why the SM should not resent to see such a spectacle, a parent getting cussed and hit by a daughter. I would be disgusted and I believe most sane people would do.

I would say hitting and swearing is between father and daughter. FSM can resent or be disgusted, etc. That is her perogative. What I would not allow is for her to take action, see counselor, etc. She is not parent, teacher etc. She is Dad's fiance.

I would like to hear from OP how much time daughters spend with their dad.

I have absolutely no problem with my kids swearing at me. I don't see it as any big deal. As to hitting, it depends - are we talking about a casual swat to the shoulder such as kids do to each other all the time, or a punch that knocks out a tooth or two? And what have they "stolen?" Toothpaste? Sanitary napkins? Diamond rings?

Well, you've heard some interesting perspectives... I'll add mine, which is somewhat different.

Would you knowingly choose to marry a man who is not a good father?
Because by allowing his children to behave so badly with no consequences, that's exactly what he's doing. He's 'chickening out' and taking what appears to be the 'easy way out' of difficult parenting issues. And I'm sorry to say, that's bad parenting. And the girls' behavior is likely to get worse, not better, if it's not corrected now.

To those who say it's none of your business, I'd say "The heck it isn't!" You are being asked to become a step-parent, and that's a huge job. It's a tough enough job to accept with two well-behaved kids, a clear set of rules and a supportive spouse. But for two badly-behaved teenagers and a father who's afraid to discipline them? Recipe for disaster.

Counseling would be a good first step - for him. I don't really see why the girls have to go; their behavior makes perfect sense given what your BF allows. And you wouldn't need to go at first either; you seem to have a decent read on the situation. But your BF does. Your BF needs to learn to be a better parent -- firm, consistent, unafraid. And once he's learned to set and enforce limits, THEN (and only them) whould I consider taking the next step and marrying him. Moving in before that point will only bring you heartache.

Sweeby,

You say "You are being asked to become a step-parent" -- thats the problem, the girls mom hasnt asked OP to become a step-parent. I think that is what is at the heart of many problems -- yes, Dad is asking OP to become a SM, but nobody is asking mom.

And nobody is asking the kids if they want a stepmother either.

"I have absolutely no problem with my kids swearing at me. I don't see it as any big deal. As to hitting, it depends - are we talking about a casual swat to the shoulder such as kids do to each other all the time, or a punch that knocks out a tooth or two? And what have they "stolen?" Toothpaste? Sanitary napkins? Diamond rings?"

TOS , this is just unbelievable.

For all this time you have been presenting you and your kids as model of education and parenting (compared to all these nasty SM and SF and stepfamilies riddled with problems) and comes out that your children swear routinely at you ?
And this is the model, attachment parenting that you have been preaching to us ?
Thanks but no thanks. It is just ridiculous.

I can understand while after twenty years of this, your husband became depressed, left your "happy" family and now has few contacts with his kids.

You know, educated and CIVILIZED people don't swear or call names other people even when they are angry... Just wait for them to swear to somebody else like a school principal or a policeman and see what happens IN THE REAL WORLD..

And what about hitting ? Playful swats !? Again see what happens if IN THE REAL WORLD you "playfully" swat or push somebody : it is called ASSAULT or BATTERY and it will land you in Jail. Actually hitting a member of your family is called DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

Again, if you condone this, I can understand why your ex husband left home and has few contacts with his kids.

I just hope for your sake that one of your children does not decide to start hittting you or at least if she/he has to hit you, he restrain her/himself do it "lightly"....

And taking something, even a tube of toothpaste, from somebody else's house without asking is STEALING, just try taking toothpaste or tampons from a a friend's house wihout asking and upon discovery, justify yourself that is cheap stuff, not a diamond ring..
Or maybe you feel that a father deserve less respect than a friend..

Do you take routinely stuff without asking from your friends'houses ? And do you still have friends ? Just curious.

By the way stealing is an habit and an addiction that IF LEFT UNCHECKED get progressive, virtually every thief starts with family and cheap stuff and end with expensive stuff and strangers.

TOS, do your children used to steal stuff from your ex husband's house ? Because THAT would explain why your ex-husband wife has forbidden home visits.
Who wants to invite thieves in the house ?

"You say "You are being asked to become a step-parent" -- thats the problem, the girls mom hasnt asked OP to become a step-parent. I think that is what is at the heart of many problems -- yes, Dad is asking OP to become a SM, but nobody is asking mom"

KKNY, just resign youself, IT IS CALLED DIVORCE, that means that the ex-wife has no say about what the ex husband does WITH HIS LIFE or when and whom he decides to marry. The ex wife does not get to choose the second wife or the girlfriend.. If she has a problem, she can go to court and try to get custody or visitatation rules changed.
In the OP case, if the ex goes to court and a judge hears about the daughters'behaviour, the ex has a good chance to lose custody (given her horrible parenting job) and the girls to end in mandatory counseling and/or juvenile detention...

"And nobody is asking the kids if they want a stepmother either."

TOS, children do not get asked either if they want to go to school or move house or drive a car or pay a mortgage, All these are adults'responsabilities.

BTW,just like a parent can not, in civilised countries, force a son or a daughter in marriage or out of a marriage, so children and even adult sons and daughter can not force their parents to live together or to live alone. IT IS CALLED HUMAN RIGHTS and parents, even divorced ones, have them too.

I have to wonder just how these girls behave to their mother. I see HUGE red flags here.

As usual, I disagree w/ the crap about asking the kids if they want a SM. I mean, when the X remarried BEFORE the divorce (isn't that illegal???), was it all OK for her BF, who she was obviously involved w/ during her marriage, to be considered the stepfather? Were the girls asked? Unless a prospective SP is abusive on some front, the kids need to know they aren't going to have much of a say in many things through life. When management hires a new head of the dept. they work in, odds are they won't be able to protest. When their college professor is replaced, I doubt the university will ask these girls who they'd like to replace him/her...

Personally, I think staying in an unhappy marriage that really has no hope of becoming a good one again isn't really healthy for anyone. Today, I think there's a big problem w/ kids being treated as adults far too early. I think kids need to learn a few things. I once saw an interesting article on Bill Gates' speech at a commencement. A few of the highlights were:

If you think your teacher has it in for you, wait til you have a boss. (Could a playful swat to the boss be considered OK? No, and it isn't to anyone, esp. a parent. Similarly with respect to swearing. Parents letting kids get away w/ such disrespect is just wrong. It sends the wrong message. Children need to learn that UNACCEPTABLE behavior has consequences!)

Slinging burgers ISN'T beneath you! Your grandparents had a word for such jobs - OPPORTUNITY.

Be nice to the nerd next door - he could end up being your boss one day, and he won't put up with being sworn at or hit...

All the best to the poster. I think your take on things is right on the money. Maybe one day, you'd be able to talk some sense into these kids. I mean, they could wake up one day and Dad could be gone - would they like their last words to him to be so unkind and disrespectful?

I'd go to counseling w/ your fiance. He needs help communicating, enforcing (w/o being completely stubborn) the visitation - maybe offer to have the sleepover at his place once in awhile. He needs to hear a third party tell him he's doing his girls no service in the long run. It's obvious that he's afraid of them - not physically, but losing them more. Maybe they're a little poisoned against him by the BM? How is she and her husband treated? A third party can help w/ dialogue, boundaries, etc. And, I suppose a little chat saying that you'd love to share some things w/ them of yours, but not everything is in line. The "ask before you take" line HAS to be delivered!

Good luck,
Dana

I dont want any say in Xs life. I dont care if X and his GF dance down the street every night, but I want and am entitled to say in DDs life. The only people who are her parents are dad and me. DD is not her fathers chattel, he can not share ownership with GF or a SM. And OP and searer, SM is a word. You do not beocme a mom -- at least to these children. You have no legal rights of a parent. And a judge going with FSM, when the children have (apparently lived with mom for years). Hahaha. It is not too likely.

The only influence OP is likely to have is through FDH.

And as to stealing -- children are taking from dads house, and OP says she doesnt live there. I dont think I would check my daughters bag if she came back with toothpaste etc.

Oh for Pete's sake... My H, like a lot of men (and women), routinely swears. My kids don't swear very often, specifically BECAUSE we never made a big deal of it. They NEVER went through the common stage of swearing to see if it would shock adults. They NEVER went through a "potty mouth" stage. As a matter of fact, most of them were teenagers before I EVER them say a swear. Even if someone asked them to repeat something they had heard on TV, they would say, "I can't say that because it is a bad word." And neither my H nor I ever told them not to swear - they seemed to learn by osmosis which words were swears, occasionally including a few that actually aren't swears in that category.

Are there really families out there whose kids NEVER roughhoused, never playfully swatted each other???

And no, my kids did not bring home ANYTHING from my exH's wife's house, except for the occasional batch of cookies that their father had baked for them.

It is NOT stealing to use personal hygiene products in your own house. All the "mom's house dad's house" books claim that you should make your kids feel at home both places. They shouldn't have to ask to use any consumables that they find there, whether food or hygiene related. The original poster did not specify which "items" they "stole." If she keeps some things at her boyfriend's house, I assume they would be things in the cosmetic/personal hygiene category, not her previous 7 years of tax returns or her mother's gold jewelry.

"Could a playful swat to the boss be considered OK? No, and it isn't to anyone, esp. a parent. Similarly with respect to swearing."

Actually, depending on the circumstances, a playful swat to the boss would be fine. It happens all the time among my female co-workers, including between supervisor and subordinate. One of my male co-workers once came up behind me outside and grabbed me around the waist - scared the bejeebers out of me. It's a good thing I didn't know any martial arts.

And as to comparing SM with boss, employees have a choice as to boss, one can quit. As to teacher, teachers are trained and superivsed (and now I expect a train of emails that every sm here is a teacher) and have an expected role. SMs walk into situations where they may also be biokids, etc.

Searer -- I have no desire to control Xs life. I have no desire to even see him. But as to controlling - no SM has rights over my child.

Thank you all for some really good things for me to think about.

I will clarify that the counceling I would like is pre-marital counceling through my church. It is required of anyone getting married in the church, so DH and I will do it. I think it would be a good idea if the girls also joined. Mostly just to set exceptations from an impartial source... since they were so young at the time of the divorce, they've always seen their dad as just that -- a dad, no mom at his house, no SM, never a live-in girlfriend. Now there will be some new boundries and changes in the house.

The BM has most definately tainted their opinion of their dad, but I don't put all the blame on her. It's a two-way street. And since my neices are not yet teenagers, I don't know what is "normal or acceptable" behavior in today's world. I would just like to see them acting more like young ladies than spoiled kids.

The hitting is pretty bad -- bruising and all. She cries and apologizes afterwards, but she can't control the outbursts. The "stealing" was several cosmetic items, maybe about $75 worth. Not much, but it's the principle of it... I respect their privacy and their rooms, and I deserve the same in return.

DH has asked them how they would feel about us getting married, and they are very supportive. I dream that I can create more of a family atmosphere at his house, and I hope I can be a positive role-model for them.

You mentioned that it was your church. Is it their church too? Or your boyfriend's? There is no way I would subject my kids to "counseling" by some minister/priest/rabbi/monk that happened to be associated with some random church that my H's wife happened to join. At least psychiatrists and psychologists have credentials from accredited universities.

I think the SK should respect their father's decision about having someone special in his life. Their parents have been divorced for a long time, why shouldn't he have some happiness ?

It's just about establishing some rules of the house. The dad is probably not "trained" in being a cluey parent. Lets face it dealing with teens is a challenge, they test the boundaries etc etc. We all have to question and learn better parenting skills when this stage of life is foisted upon us, as parents.

I would suggest that the OP does explore with her fiance some new parenting skills and talk about what sort of standards of behaviour they BOTH want when the children come to visit.

All teens are bratty at some stage, but they grow up.

Firm ground rules, and stop the blame game.

Good luck to you OP.

I think the girls should be happy for their dad and welcome you into the family as an adult that they can have a new relationship with them. You don't have to be their mother.

Even if I respected FSM's choice of church, I would not want my DD going to counseling there. I want independent counselor if one is needed. Step can go. X can go. DD can go to her own cousneling, if I agree to, and mutual choice of counselor. If necessary, her counselor can see either or both parents (that would be BF and BM). I certainly dont want DD "joining" pre-maritial counseling of X. DD is not getting married.

Annabelle, I would take you at your word that you want to be a positive role model. I would caution you to have DH be the one to set rules and handle discipline. If it is not to your liking, then you have a decision to make. I realize you may think it unfair that mom has more influence over children. That is between her and your BF.

You say joint custody, how often are the children at his house?

First of all, it is NEVER NEVER okay for a child of any age to swear at their parents. It is NEVER NEVER okay to raise your hand (especially at your parents; step or bio) in anger. I have always had the opinion the 'swearing' is a sign of a lack of intelligence. "You can't be more creative or think of a better way to express your feelings?" and I tell my children the same thing.

2. I do not see how, in any way the OP is putting her FDH in front of the skids. What she is trying to do is find the best way possible approach and deal with a difficult situation.

3.It is not okay to take things from a home (yours or otherwise) that are not specifically your property. Making dad's home feel like home just as much as moms home is does not mean that the children get to take ANYTHING that is not theirs... no matter what it is. It is nothing more than common courtesy to ask before you take something. This is something that not only applies to family life but to the real world as well. On the other hand, kids (especially girls) do tend to get into and sometimes take things like makeup... my daughters have done it. However, I do not let them get away with it. They do have to apologize and replace the items because they did not ask and it was not theirs to take.

4.I think it is more important that you and DH go to counseling together than it is for the girls to go with you. Although, if you want them to be more involved in the situation think of special ways to involve them in the wedding process, not just the wedding itself. Ask them for some ideas and use some of their ideas, after all it is their family too. Once you and DH are on the same page via counseling (and that is the only way you are going to be happy in this marriage) the girls will be able to see and feel a united front that is looking out for their best interests. Allowing this kind of behavior to go without consequence is setting them up for failure later in life. Allowing them to get away with it because 'they wont come to see me' is reckless and iresponsible

4.Going to see dad is not an option. I dont know why so many people think it is. We do not ask our children if they want to come home at night. We do not ask our children if they feel like living in the house we have provided for them. So why do people feel it is okay for a child (and a teen is still a child) dictate what they are and are not going to do in reference to going to visit their other parent (or listen to the step parents for that matter). Yes, they are teenagers and they do have active lives. But, their father is still their father and if they are supposed to be at their fathers house they should call and ask their father for permission to go on these outings. I do think that they should be allowed to go (as long as they deserve the privilege) but there is no reason that father shouldnt and cant say sure go shopping with so and so but be back here at blah blah time for dinner or whatever.

OP Good luck and I hope that counseling with DH will help things out.

Of course OP is putting FDH first, her post is about how much she loves him, and much it hurts her that skids act TOWARD HIM THE WAY THEY DO. NOT THAT SHE IS WORRIED ABOUT THEM. All this is normal with FSM. Just not a mom.

Dont assume children want to have a role in wedding. Up to mom and dad. They arent OPs children. And they never will be.

Again, how often does dad have girls? How often is he supposed to. How long has the pattern of no visits been going on? Has FDH spoken to them about coming over more?

In many cases (such as my DH's) he can take them to any counselor, doctor, etc., with or without BM's permission. She can do the same thing. They have joint custody and are both permitted. So, TOS and KKNY stating they would not "let" BF take kids to counseling with his new fiancee cracks me up.

Here is where I need clarification: KKNY and TOS will be the first ones to talk about BF "responsiblity" to his kids, and how he is required to keep them in the lifestyle they are accustomed, and how he should pay for camps, extracurriculars, nose jobs, etc. and never question anything because "THESE ARE HIS CHILDREN, FOR GOD'S SAKE!". But, in the next breath, they will say he has no right to choose a counselor for his children and they would not be OK with him choosing a clergy member, and BF would have to approve it through them. So, he really only has rights as a father when he is paying through the nose, but when he wants to do something (like take a child to counseling) he has no right to do that unless the ever knowing BM approves. In the words of kkny...I continue to find this board educational as to how BM view the BF's....as wallets.....who are the gold diggers here.

TOS...there is a difference in a teenager letting a swear word slip in front of their parents, and cursing at their parents. I think all of us could agree that swear words may slip, but cursing at your parents is a different story. I am 32 years old and still would never dream of swearing at my father or mother. But, that is because I was taught to respect them, and it is very obvious these girls have never been taught this lesson. And I have a right to be appalled if my SD17 curses out her father in our home. I have small children and that is not an example I want them to see or hear. Honestly, my 7 year old has never heard a curse word. We don't curse, and he goes to a private school with parents with similar values, so if you provide your child with an appropriate model, you don't have to worry about the "potty mouth" stage when they are little, because they have never heard it, and therefore it isn't in their vocabulary. TOS...maybe you should watch your mouth around your kids. BTW...I am a teacher (thanks kkny) and we could always tell which parents cursed around their kids because the kids would be calling the other children those names at 6 years old. We always thought those parents were trashy..so you might want to keep that in mind..TOS

Back to original post...I would definitely go to counseling with BF and go with just the two of you for a while. Let the counselor suggest bringing in the girls (if necessary), but I really believe at this point, the counselor is going to require BF to make some changes to his parenting before even seeing the girls is necessary. Good Luck!

I think if my X took my DD to a "counselor" at his GF or even if it ever happened a SMs church, I would be in court the next day. So if you are trying to advise OP to set a confrontation with the mom, go for it.

As to who is a gold digger, spare that one -- all the second wives who cant wait to quit their job and move in with FDH. Oh wait, my Xs GF just moved to a "consulting" arrangement, where she works at home. And conveniently, since she doesnt contribute to rent or mortgage, she makes enough to get by. But I'm the golddigger. Right. I dont put wanting money for my child the same as wanting for me, but maybe others feel differently.

cawfecup

I thought you were a SAHM, so i guess you mean retired teacher. But wow, with only school age kids, and the ability to work teachers hours, you're sahm.

I think something in their upbringing has made these girls very, very angry and very unhappy and it is more than the divorce.

Both parents know what this is as they raised them. The behavior of these girls goes beyond teenage rebellion. They tell a parent (or both?) to "** off and I wish you were dead"? And they think it is ok to hit their father? Do they hit their mother, too?

I don't think the future stepmother understands why they behave as they do, or why it is tolerated. She really can't as she wasn't in the picture while they were being raised. But their behavior will most definitely impact her life once she becomes their stepmom.

I would recommend that she first go alone to a professional who is skilled with family issues and tell him/her what she has seen and heard. This might give her a better insight as to why they have behavior problems and whether this is normal. I don't think it is normal - even for a teenager.

I would definitely do this before marriage and at some point, bring fiance into counseling so they can discuss ways to handle these outbursts or ways to diffuse them before they it occurs.

"Of course OP is putting FDH first, her post is about how much she loves him, and much it hurts her that skids act TOWARD HIM THE WAY THEY DO. NOT THAT SHE IS WORRIED ABOUT THEM. All this is normal with FSM. Just not a mom."

I think this is very representative of your own realtionship with your ex husband and not necessarily of that of the OP. As a mom and a step mom, I would be hurting for my childrens father if they were treating him poorly and just as I would expect him to have my back in all things I too would have his back in reprimanding the children and setting a positive example of what is and is not acceptable. I think it is ludacris to say that a mom (as I am one) would not feel for her husband if their children were acting the way his are toward her husband and not feel need to not only help the husband she loves but the children that are so important to both of them.

"Dont assume children want to have a role in wedding. Up to mom and dad. They arent OPs children. And they never will be."

She already stated that children are supportive of wedding. Also, this was a suggestion as a way to blend the family in happy celebratory way as opposed to sitting in uncomfortable surroundings talking to a counselor. This was not an assumption. However, that being said it is not only disrepectful, it is unacceptable for children to not be supportive and participate in a happy joyous occasion that is so important to their father and to their own lives. Hopefully we are raising our children to be thoughtful, respectful and kind to others and thereby eliminating this back and forth nonsense. In my own wedding the children were apart of the actual ceremony as we "joined our families into one" Both my girls helped me pick out flowers candles dresses etc... I took and used some of their suggestions and even let them make special gifts for the wedding reception. We had a lot of family talks during this time that, because they were informal and in a relaxed happy setting, established how we want our family and home to work. After all, family talks are always best with good food and laughter.

I think that the problem is that some expect the new wife to be little more than a roommate. If I wanted a roommate I would not have gotten married. However, we wanted a family... one family that has a whole lot of branches... and with this kind of family it takes every single person involved working together towards the same goal to not only make sure that the children involved are happy well rounded adults but to make sure that at the end of the day they can sleep knowing each one did his or her best to make everyone around them that they care about happy and healthy and that they too are happy and healthy.

No one is trying to take anyone's children away from them... they are just trying to do what is best for those that they care about (children included). I think your heart is in the right place here OP. The fact that it would even occur to try to be a positive role model and want to have a family atmosphere shows where your true values lie. Now just share those with your future hubby and make sure you are both on the same page. A tree wont grow unless the roots are firmly established...

I think the OP has a good heart and is only looking for the best for ALL that are involved

Lafevem and Mom_of_4 have made some excellent points. And once again, a few other posters have shown agressively antagonistic step-mom hatred and one-sided thinking in their responses.

- BioDad has just as much right and vested interest in getting counseling for the child as BioMom. Many divorce decrees (most?) stipulate that EITHER parent has the right to consent to medical care and the responsibility to provide whatever care is necessary. Paying for that care is often addressed separately, but seeking out and consenting to that care is a right both parents have.

- Now lets consider why a BioMom would object so strenuously to letting BioDad choose a counselor for DD? Or letting future StemMom have any say in choosing the counselor? Or worse yet, participate in the counseling! (mock horror) A couselor's job is to help the family dynamics work more smoothly, to help people solve their problems in a positive way and get along better -- and that would be awful if DD got along better with her BioDad and StepMom! Or learned any deep dark family secrets? Or somehow concluded that BioMom wasn't perfect?

BioMoms - You should want your child's new stepfamily situation to work out! Because that's what's best for your children. It's in your precious child's best interests to have parents who love and discipline them. It's best for the children to have more love, even if it's not all from 'your side', and to have respect for all of the key adults in their lives. Undermining that process is hurting your children more than you can ever know.

OP -- You wrote: "Now there will be some new boundries and changes in the house."

I'd just like to urge you to keep all of those new changes separate from your arrival. In other words, the 'new rules' and their enforcement should start long before you get there, otherwise, the kids will blame you for setting those rules, and you'll be in the very awkward position of having to either do the enforcement or defer enforcement until Dad gets home through the roughest period when those rules are new.

I'm not in the camp who believes a stepparent should never discipline a stepchild. But I do think it's a delicate issue. It's relatively easy to enforce a known and expected consequence ("You know the TV doesn't go on until your homework is done.") -- but much harder to not be "the bad guy" when all of the consequences are new.

"And nobody is asking the kids if they want a stepmother either."

My husband asked his daughters before we got married (when I wasn't around so they could be perfectly honest without hurting my feelings, etc.). I also asked them what their feelings were about the entire situation (when their father wasn't around so they could be perfectly honest without hurting his feelings!!!). Our circumstances were completely different than some given that my husband has the girls full-time and we all had to reside together in the same household. Second marriages are different because, well, the children were there first!! We both felt that they had a right to be consulted about such a huge change. Should they have had any hesitation we were prepared to reevaluate the situation and either move forward more slowly to see if they could adjust and/or cease our relationship (not what either of us wanted). I did not feel, however, that we needed to consult my husband's ex-wife. She made the decision that she did not want to raise them. She was/is not part of the full-time living arrangement equation. I respect her for birthing such wonderful girls and for assisting their father in raising them to the point she did, however, that is as far as my debt to her goes.

"I know some of the SMs here will step up with the biblical refrain, H and W have to come first. I think the problem is applying that principal to a second marriage, whtere there are skids involved."

I believe that H and W must come first whether it's first, second, third or fourth marriages. My husband and I have much to do with the atmosphere in our home and that directly affects the girls (I feel we are the foundation). My husband is obligated to fulfill my needs and make every attempt to please me. I am obligated to fulfill my husband's needs and make every attempt to please him. In that calculation, the needs of the girls are completely and utterly fullfilled. I'm not saying that would work for everyone (both my husband and I are quite devoted to making a pleasant life for his children and his children are quite devoted to making a pleasant life for us all) but I felt the need to defend the "biblical refrain" even in a stepparent situation.

sweeby..you said it all quite well. BM's should want their child to be in the best possible situation, and the BF has the right to take HIS child to a counselor of his choosing..just as he could if it were an intact family. This is why there are so many bitter BF's. They are expected to pay, pay, pay, but when they want to know what is going on in their children's lives, they are only given as much access as BM allows. That is not equitable nor fair. My DH is a wonderful father who loves all of his children dearly. To even get info about schooling, activities, etc. from his ex becomes a major battle. Not all fathers abandon their children after divorce, and many want to continue to be actively involved.

As far as H and W coming first, I completely agree. I just think some BF have a problem with that concept because they are dealing with so much guilt (deservedly or not) that they have a hard time not giving the children everything they want and not wanting to discipline in the little time many of them have their children. However, ideally I completely agree that the H and W should be first, and it makes for a much happier home if the spouses are fulfilled first.

Back to original OP....I would start counseling now if I was you...gradually bring in fiance, and then let the counselor guide you in how to bring in the children. In my case, my DH and his ex have a court ordered parent coordinator in place for when there are disputes. She is a wondeful lady and more than willing to meet with me or BM's husband alone and let us address our step-parent concerns. She values our places in both of our homes because she realizes we both help take care of the kids and have the right to input. Her services have been valuable to us and really wish we could use her more, however, it is pretty expensive every time we meet with her so we don't as much as we should.

(clears throat) ... How did I get brought into this post when I haven't even posted on it?

I was waiting for KKNY to dig her own grave with her words... and let others take her down a peg or three.

Babies momma = saint hood.
Babies daddy = trust fund.

cawfecup..I think she was referring to me, but I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure.

kkny...If you were referring to me, I have made it clear in other posts (that you have replied to), that I am a teacher turned SAHM for this year because I HAVE A 16 MONTH OLD BABY...not school age. I am returning to work in fall. Not much work for teachers in the summer.

You got it exactly right cawfe!
Babies momma = saint hood.
Babies daddy = trust fund.

But she and TOS will sit around ringing thier hands about why their ex's aren't more involved in thier children's lives. Because they have been made to feel like ATM's, and that their only contribution is money..so why should they be involved otherwise. I know it isn't right, but I can see why the men feel this way.

kkny...following up on your earlier post. Everytime there is something you don't like..you mention you will be in court the next day. Do you know any other way to have resolution other than involving the court system? If the two of you were still married, and you disagreed about a parenting issue, what would you do? You couldn't call up your local judge then, so how would you have handled it? Do you think constantly having her parents involved in litigation is good for your child? Have you ever thought about having a court appointed parenting coordinator appointed in your case, so the two of you will have a impartial third party to go to without going to court? Or, would you be unwilling to accept a counselor's advice unless they agreed with you? My dh has one appointed in his case, and it is a real blessing. You should try it.

Ok thought it was me scanned posts several times to see if I had posted ... couldn't find it...

Guess she has an issue with all SAHM's.

As far as my own children swearing at me and hitting me ... my children wouldn't have any teeth left and their arms would be broken if they laid a hand on me ... but I taught my children to be respectful of me and others .. they wouldn't swear or hit me never mind anyone else. But guess thats just me.

And same goes for my SC they have each been given fair warning hit me again and I will hit you back. Kick me again and I will kick you back. Bite me again and I will bite you back. Head butt me again and I will head butt you back.

Yes I have been "attacked" by each of them and they have all been told "I hope you enjoyed it because its the last time you will _____ me ... next time I will do it right back to you. ...None of them have attempted to hit, bite, kick, or anything again.

I will not be physically or verbally assaulted in my own home!!!

Whoa. In some of the replies here I sense seething resentment of stepmothers.

Annabelle,

Counseling is such a good idea! I wish I had done it before marrying! Let the counselor help you navigate whether to include kids or not, but I strongly suggest a counselor familiar with blended family issues and go with your fiance for the sake of YOU 2!!! You need all the help you can get to start things off on the right foot.

Personally, I think a devoted stepmom is a saint, because she is willing to love and care without necessarily being loved back by the stepkids. It may well feel that way at times!

The children certainly need to be parented, for their own sakes as well as the sake of society in general. But that may well pretty much be in the hands of your husband-to-be. It's true you are not the parent, but you are preparing to be the "lady of the house" and you need to find all the support you can to help you with that.

Good luck to you!

Again, thanks. I had no idea the backlash, etc. that would be caused on the thought of including the SK in pre-maritial counceling. Even though DH has the right to consent to medical care, I do see your points on how that might appear and will hold off on that.

Unfortunately, the lack of visits started when the youngest turned 12. In our state it's very difficult to enforce visitation at that point. You can't "make" the child come over. So by allowing Skid to plan fun things at BM's house, Skid "chooses" to stay there.

Sadly, DH and BM only live about 20 minutes apart. Seems like sleepovers could be at his house, as well. We don't mind carpooling to pick up their friends.

Thank you to the poster who said you can't change the kids. That is good advice. I hope they will grow out of some of this, and I now see that some of this is from a lack of firm parenting in the past -- from both DH and BM. I've asked the girls if they talk that way at BM's house, and they say yes. Sigh...

Annabelle, are you absolutely 100% sure the law doesn't permit the noncustodial parent to enforce scheduled visitation over the child's objections? Because in any contentious divorce, the custodial parent could very easily manipulate the child to 'decline' visitation as a demonstration of loyalty.

There was a time when my Ex kept telling our son that he didn't have to return to my house until later or could go back to his house earlier or more often if he would just tell me. Ex just couldn't see the pressure it put on DS to have to either tell me he wanted to spend more time at his dad's house, or tell his dad that he didn't.

If you have a court-approved document outlining custody arrangements, you have the right to have those agreements enforced by the court. Now, I'm not suggesting that you file a contempt order -- only that the DH state clearly and firmly that any future attempts to interfere with the visitation order can and will result in legal action.

Stick to the schedule --

I agree with sweeby. Your fiance should make it clear to his daughter that he does not have a problem allowing sleepovers, taking her to events, etc., but he does expect her to come for visitation. Our 17 year old is very involved in activities, but her boyfriend, friends, etc. know she will be at our house on the weekend, and they can visit here and she will be picked up and dropped off here. My dh or I drive her to activities as well. They both know weekend obligations are not an excuse not to come over. Although, we have never had an issue with this as their BM is more than happy to get rid of them on the weekend. The only time we have had visitation issues is when she was trying to hurt my DH so she held out and kept them for a couple of weekends. We both knew it wouldn't last and ALAS it didnt!

My separation agreement, which is pretty standard in my state, states that both my H and I have to agree on non-emergency medical care or counseling for the children. Neither one of us could take them to a counselor at a church or anywhere else without the other agreeing to it.

I don't know where lafevem got the idea that my kids learned to swear from me. Not that I never swear, but their father swears, their friends swear, the kids on the bus and in school swear, actors on prime time tv - how you get even to age 7 without hearing a swear is beyond me. I was talking to one of my adult kids tonight about this, and he mentioned that his friends had commented on the fact that he never swore in front of them - and you got to admit that is unusual for a teenage/young adult guy. I am convinced the reason he doesn't swear routinely is BECAUSE we never considered it a big deal in our family.

I find cawfecup's comment terrifying:
"my children wouldn't have any teeth left and their arms would be broken if they laid a hand on me ..."

Uggg, this is what I get for only reading the most recently posted messages!

I can only assume that Cawfecup didn't mean it literally.

However, a good portion of respect is in direct relation to fear:

police officer = jail
school principal = suspension/detention
parent = discipline

All of these may evoke a bit of fear but they are also established for a good cause. A police officer's job is to protect the public, school principal to uphold order, a parent to provide guidance.

No I didn't mean it literally ... but my children never hit or swore at me so I didn't have to worry about it.

I was happy after I posted it though because this thread ended. Didn't have to hear how children should get away with whatever they want to say and do because their parents divorced ... no excuse for bad behavior... doesn't make it acceptable to treat people like they are dirt and expect the same people to dust it off.

I hadn't even posted on this one ... was brought into it.

Babies momma = saint hood.
Babies daddy = trust fund.

My apologies for resurrecting it.

TOS.....I have absolutely no problem with my kids swearing at me. I don't see it as any big deal. As to hitting, it depends - are we talking about a casual swat to the shoulder such as kids do to each other all the time, or a punch that knocks out a tooth or two? And what have they "stolen?" Toothpaste? Sanitary napkins? Diamond rings?

I copied and pasted your exact quote above. That is where I got your feeling about children cursing.....from your own words.

lafevem,

I don't understand what you mean. I don't think swearing is a big deal - which is probably why my kids don't swear a lot. Contrary to what you stated, I did not teach them to swear - kids hear swears from many sources, in many cases from outside the family.

lonepiper said,
"However, a good portion of respect is in direct relation to fear:"

I completely disagree with this statement. I think it is impossible to respect someone you are afraid of.

TOS...again, as I have stated before, your statement was it doesn't bother you when your kids swear AT YOU. That is disrespectful, IMHO. There is a difference between letting a curse word slip when you hammer your thumb or slip and fall, and cursing AT a parent. But you rear your children however you feel is necessary. As for your adult son, he most likely does not swear regularly because he has heard you and your ex or DH or whatever do is so much, that he sees how ignorant it makes you appear, and he does not want to seem that way himself. Many times children learn by seeing their parents behave in a way that is not attractive as well.

No, he doesn't swear often because he doesn't feel the need to do or say things just to fit in, and because we didn't make a big deal of it.

I believe it is critically important to raise your kids to not follow the crowd.

I have always respected my mother. She also had the power to make my life quite scary!! She held the power to ground me, scold me and/or spank me if that was her desire!! She also had the power of words!! An "I'm so very disappointed with what you did" would devastate me to the core. Did I fear her? You betcha!!! Did I respect her? Absolutely!!

Fear does not necessarily mean bodily harm. I have a very healthy respect for the law. I also have a very healthy fear of the repercussions of disobeying that very same law!!!

lonepiper its fine... its just that when KKNY and TOS get involved in a post it always goes back to children of divorce should be coddled for the rest of their lives and they are not held accountable for any of their actions its always the adult's fault never the child's fault.

officer pulls you over ...

You get out of the car "playfully swat" him on the shoulder and say hey buddy F U ... what is that officer going to do? Is he going to perceive it as "friendly behavior" or his he going to place you under arrest for assault? and disorderly conduct?

Child forgets homework... teacher says you are going to stay after school for not doing your homework... child says "you can't tell me what to do ... you're not my mother!!" then "playfully swats" teacher on the shoulder what happens to that child?

Children should be treated like children and taught be respectful of all adults within reason... they should be told that you can tell a stranger to go pound tar. Anyone who touches them in bathing suit area needs to be disrespected and they need to tell an adult. They need to be taught to be afraid of strangers and be on the look out for molesters ... they should be taught how to become decent adults... they cannot swear at you hit you or other wise disrepect you

Yes respect is fear ... fear of the unknown... Everyone one has said ... I would never do "that" my mother would kill me!!! would your mom really kill you NO but you were never really sure.

Babies momma = saint hood.
Babies daddy = trust fund.

Of course I was sure my mother wouldn't really "kill" me. I didn't fear my parents, and I hope my children don't fear me. Children (and adults) do like approval from people who love them, but it has nothing to do with fear.

Conversely, you can certainly be afraid of someone for whom you have no respect - like those child molesters mentioned above.

I wouldn't playfully swat a stranger not because it wasn't respectful but because it would be a violation of his personal space, not to mention dangerous. That doesn't mean I respect him. I don't even know him, so how do I know if I respect him?