So, tos, are you suggesting that for the rest of their lives the fiancee (and presumably one day, new wife), disappears every time the daughter comes to spend time with her father? How unnatural is that? Of course the daughter needs to learn to interact with both as a pair. I'm not saying,_all_the time, but even in intact families the children don't solely interact with one parent at a time. Well adjusted people recognise that there is such a thing as a happy medium.

But in intact families there is no reason to interact with only one parent at a time the majority of the time, because by definition they are both her parents! There is nothing "natural" about having a stepparent - that is why "natural parent" is a synonym for "biological parent." I wouldn't presume that this woman will necessarily one day be his wife - there is no reason to be a fiancee for more than the few months it takes to plan a small wedding, especially as an mature adult. Yes, I think she should disappear for most of the time the girl is visiting, unless the child specifically requests that she be there. It would be a great opportunity to see her own friends, to go shopping, to read, and to enjoy her hobbies. She doesn't need to be attached at the hip to her boyfriend during the few hours the child is there.

TOS, I think that is part of the problem -- OP thinks as SM to be that she should be, in effect, the mom while the child is there. The child will likely not think so. The child will likely think she has a mom. I would guess that when OP knew other children, she never assumed she would be stepping in as as substitute mom.

I have never understood how certain people think that the children (biological, step or adopted) should come before a spouse. Are these people just looking for failed marriages? If you go to any marital counselor in the world they will explain that when children are put before a spouse you might as well build a brick wall in between you as well. What happens when SD grows up and enters relationships? Do you think that she will miraculously know what a healthy relationship is despite the fact that her natural parents couldn't figure it out and she was obviously more important than her father's second attempt? The best thing ANY parent can do for ANY child is to model a healthy, respectful relationships. This is a POOR example of such, regardless of whether OP is a SM, Fiance or GF! In my home we teach respect and it is all-encompassing. Respect for people, animals, property...ANYthing. This little girl's behavior is DISrespectful whichever way you cut it and she is old enough to better communicate her feelings. My five-year-old SS uses his words better than this. It is very clear that SD is doing this because she can. You are correct that she needs one-on-one with Dad but she needs to learn how to ask for it. Being a disrespectful little brat should NOT earn her what she seeks. Would also give candy to a screaming child? OP is NOT being selfish or jealous or whatever else you've called her. She obviously expects more from this child than anyone else in her life does! Enabling a child to be a diva, princess, or dictator does not improve a child's life! It just sets her up for disappointment when she eventually enters the "real world". It also sets her up to be a miserablely demanding woman, who will most likely wind up divorced unable to figure out why her ex-spouse never listened as well as her daddy. Seems to me OP is the only one in the mix who cares enough to raise this child right! Y'know with that little thing called respect...

"There is nothing "natural" about having a stepparent - that is why "natural parent" is a synonym for "biological parent."

Funny how some SM's seem to be more of a "natural" than the BM, huh? My SS(s) live with me and my DH for 10-mos straight without ANY involvement from BM at all. Their BM emails me to ask me how to discipline the boys during the 8 weeks that she has them (when she's not pawning them off on her family or my DH's family!) The youngest's counselor has said to me that in the children she's seen who were in the same situation as my boys with their SM being their "primary" mother, and their BM all but absent from the process of raising them, almost all of them eventually thanked their SM saying "without you, I wouldn't have had a mother". So to assume that there is nothing "natural" about a step-parent is ignorant. And so is assuming that if someone isn't married within X amount of time then she should be dismissed as a possible SM. You don't know her or her circumstances, so be careful how much you ass*u*me...

I can see waiting until you finish college to marry, or get out of the army - reasons that make sense when you are 20, and all reasons that do not involve living together during the engagement. I realize it takes a few months to plan a wedding, and you might not want to have an outdoor wedding in December. But if you read these boards, or the newspaper, every single time you read of a couple living together, they refer to each other as their fiance - not their live-in boy/girlfriend/companion. They can't possibly all really be engaged.

Just because not all biological parents are good parents, doesn't mean that blended families are "natural." By definition, natural parents means biological ones. The vast majority of children love their parents. They do not necessarily love their stepparents, and almost never do so immediately.

Of course children come first. Absolutely. My ex-husband believed that too. I wouldn't want a husband who didn't put the kids first. As long as both parents agree on that, there is no problem. The problem arises when one partner believes that he or she should be a higher priority than the children.

Just out of curiosity, isn't there anyone here who believes in attachment parenting??

Hmmm. I Googled "attachment parenting" and found "Attachment Parenting Answers". Some quotes:
"AP meets the needs of both child and parent; a balance of give and take exists, with adult desires and wants occasionally being sacrificed in the early years." Note it says "occasionally" and not "always".
It also refers to a " reciprocity of respect" and "setting clear and sensible limits, and teaching appropriate behavior". Nowhere does it mention the child as being paramount or teaching your child to be the Queen of the household.

While we believe our daughter is important, she didn't come first in everything. Teaching her that she comes first would have done her a grave disservice, as steppinout pointed out, as she would have grown up expecting to come first in the outside world as well. A world in which every person thinks he or she should be first would be pretty horrible. Instead we taught her that we all have to get along and compromise. She's now 22, well adjusted and well loved by her friends and workmates, thoughtful and successful.
The flipside of having children that come first, is eventually they grow up and leave home, and you are left with your spouse, second best. What an outcome. No wonder a lot of child-focussed couples divorce when the nest is empty.

Not all couples who live together call themselves engaged. And there are all kinds of reasons to take one's time planning a wedding. Rushing into marriage isn't always the best plan for long term stability. And regardless of the GF's longevity or otherwise, she should still be treated with respect. If parents have their adult friends to visit, children should not be allowed or encouraged to be disrespectful to them. While stepparents are not "natural", neither should they be treated as the enemy- the more caring adults a child has in his/her corner the better off that child will be in the long run. And you can't form a relationship with someone who isn't there. The OP has said she doesn't need or plan to be attached to the hip with her boyfriend while his daughter visits, but simply wants to be treated with respect at the times when she is in what is after all her own home. That's not a big ask. It is a big ask to expect the fiancee to regularly go away for the whole weekend to satisfy the demands of a would be juvenile dictator.

I say engaged because I am engaged to be married in Spetember. Even though that has nothing to do with anything. Do I not deserve to be respected just because I am not married yet?
And no, the request does not bother me, its the attitude. I don't put myself before anyone nor do I expect her to look at me and think mom, NO she has a mom and a mom daughter relationship is very important and that thought has never even crossed my mind. As for my fiance He is her daddy and she can be w/him when ever she wants thats not my issue, and I think a few ppl are drifting away from what I am asking. I am not a horrible step mother to be, I just wanted some advice on how to approach the situation. I did not come here to be torn apart by ppl.

Stepmom, I feel very badly for the way your problem has been recieved by some on this board. You are going through what many SM's have to face and are asking nothing but legitimate and unselfish questions. As a graduate psychology student, the best advice I can give you (and also the gf to a man w/a 4 year old SD) is that as long as he does give into her, she will act like this. It's common behavior modification, she's 'rewarded' for her behavior with attention, and will continue until her father puts an end to it. Unfortunatly, I do agree with someone who said that if you have spoken with him numerous times before, and he realizes that this is an important issue for you and things still not have changed...you may want to reconsider getting married. It will only get worse.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting him to set boundaries for her, and the suggestion that you should leave your own home when she's there is ABSURD. The adults run the show, and need to put eachother first, that doesn't mean the children are to be neglected in any way, but the will learn to respect both parents if they see a unified front. Have a talk with your fiancee, and if you want to look into counseling, look for local universities that offer those services, maybe hearing this from someone else will make him finally realize what is going on.
Good luck with it!

Wow, poor "thestepmom"! A great question that many of us steps have faced and, as usual, it gets turned into "you have jealousy issues"!! My 16 y/o SD was convinced by her mother that I was trying to take her place and her mother would say things like "SHE has to be there all the time taking away the your time with Daddy"! well guess what? I LOVED Daddy only time because I was used to being on my own and loved having a little "down" time that I was so used to! (in fact, right now my husband is away with his son -- I opted out -- they both wanted me to go!!!)

I see this so much from the BM's on this board -- they really do believe that because the children are from divorced families that they should dictate the family dynamics and that they should ALWAYS be first. Guess what -- in families that aren't divorced, the children do NOT come first. And as someone else said here, if they did, those marriages probably failed. You must build the foundation together and set the expectations for behavior of everyone in the family. Yes, it is more forced in step families because you start when the kids already have habits (good or bad)....

I can tell you that I have a now 20 y/o SD who was treated as her Mom's girlfriend, never told no, never had any consequences for her actions, lied, stole and acted horribly, and got drunk frequently with her "cool" mom.

That served her well, she is now not well adjusted, totally self centered, spends much time drinking while at school (she gained like 30 pounds last year alone!) and has very transient relationships. If it isn't about her....it isn't happening. She even told her brother's tennis coach that she hopes he loses the tournament he earned the right to be at -- because she didn't want to have to come back to tennis again tomorrow (and told her Dad "ugh, that was the most boring day EVER!"

Our role as parents is to teach the children how to be a responsible functional member of society. I do not know anywhere in our society where a person has the right to demand that all attention be on them, when they want it. This is not about a poor little girl who feels neglected -- it is a girl (likely fed by her mother) who wants to have control of the situation and make sure that the "lady in Daddy's life" knows the SHE is more important!

I am not from a divorced family and if I had acted like that with one of my bio parents they would have slapped me upside the head and said "stop acting like a brat!!"

Dear Jersey Step Mom,

I am glad you were fortunate enough to grow up in an intact family. The SD in the OPs post, and my DD do not live with their fathers. Dad's GF has plenty of time for them. It is clear that GF comes first, she gets the most time with Dad. I just dont think she should dictate Dad's relationship with child. In my case, she clearly doesnt care about child or relationships or she would not have had affair. In my case, Dad is beginning to realize this. He will probably have a series of "fiances". I dont begrudge him, but no need to involve DD in this. She will be in college soon, and no need to.

Father enables his daughter because he feels guilty for leaving the family. The 8 yr old acts up because her mom is probably feeding her a lot of negative crap about dad's fiance. Yes, the dad should set boundaries for this little brat, but won't because of this guilt. His ex-wife is bitter and wants to make it difficult for ex-husband's fiance. The 8 yr old is confused and acts like a brat. If she gets close to the fiance, she'll feel like a traitor to her mom. All I can say that this is a very unhealthy environment. It's a good thing that you aren't married yet.
If your fiance doesn't want to discipline his 8 yr old, then you have to ask yourself can you live with this for another 10 more years???

Children are paramount, or should be, in intact families as well. Sometimes you have to balance long term needs with short term ones - my kids may want me to be home with them, but if I have to go to work, it is often more important for me to make money so they can eat. Obviously if your spouse has a heart attack while you are on your way to the kids' ballgame, you make a detour to the hospital. But if I would rather read than call off my kids' spelling words or read them a bedtime story, I do the latter.

Husband's new wives ARE often intrusive. My kids' father's wife insists on accompanying their Dad to any event whether she is invited or not - so several of my kids do not invite their father either. She even came to a teacher conference - and she had only seen my child once in the previous year and a half, for about an hour. What made her think anyone valued her input?

TOS -- I agree in your situation, if the woman was not involved with the child's life and/or school, then she had no business being at the parent teacher conference. There ARE woman who aren't good stepmothers.....but I truly believe it is NOT the majority of us!

I also agree that children are paramount -- which means that for the child's own good they need to learn a few life lessons so that they do grow up happy and healthy: first that they are not the center of the universe at all times; second, that acting out in negative ways will NOT (should not) get you what you want; third, that having a stable loving parental situation (even if it includes a step) is the best model for children to understand the way healthy relationships should be. We owe that to the child just as much as we owe them help with homework, food on the table and a roof over their heads.

Colleenoz and wishingone23...ditto ditto ditto...

Thestepmom...I too am sorry you felt torn apart. What bothers me about this forum is that we are all in the same general situation of "blending" families and most of us have joined it to find support. It is obvious that the people you are referring to do the same thing to everyone. Instead of offering solid advice in a helpful manner they would rather point out any discrepancies in your post (and the rest of us don't really agree with their "discrepancies" anyways.) If they have something negative to say they can do it politely but to simply assume that you are some lying hussy who "claims" to be getting married then distorting your words to imply that you have some underlying scheme to steal your SD's "daddy time" is absolutely ridiculous. So please know that there are those of us out here who really are trying to help you. My advice, honestly, is what I said earlier. You need to be one unified parental force with your soon-to-be hubs. She needs to know that if she is feeling deprived of his attention then she can politely ask for him to take her somewhere alone (to the park, mall, a movie, or for an ice cream...whatever) but the bottom line is that when she disrespects you and your relationship with your fiance (in your home!) she should be reprimanded. If the way for her to get daddy time is to be respectful of you, wouldn't everything just be dandy! And whether you want to hear it or not - you need to address this with your fiance and if he is not on-board, you really should walk away from it because it WILL get SO MUCH WORSE!!!!

Colleenoz thank you for understanding my post about spouses coming first. I forgot to clearly mention the fact of what these couples are left with and their high divorce rates because they've become strangers torn apart by pedestal standing children! Even if they manage to stay married, I think it is the worst model of a relationship you can give to a child and THAT is the real job of a parent. I think one of the major problems of the world today is this flip-side parenting where the child runs the house. It's the reason I quit teaching. I enjoy raising my SS(s) much more. They are such a joy. They loved me immediately and still alternate who sits next to me when we go out to eat! When my DH and I hug, the boys run to us and hug our legs saying "I love my family". They are very important to us and we make sure they are provided with the best education, meals, clothes, toys, activities that our money can buy. Those boys KNOW how much they are loved. They also know how to respect authority (still working on the "peer" concept. Sweet little 7-yr-old asked if his classmates should respect him because he's older than all of them and "you have to respect your 'olders" hee hee. I had to explain that they should respect him because of the old "golden rule" treating others the way you want to be treated but "elders" actually means older by a generation. He can't just tell his friends what to do because he's older! Work in progress...but very cute, nonetheless!) So as I was saying, our kids are WELL provided for and well-mannered on top of it but the best part is that my husband and I are like giddy teenagers in love. We are a united force (and since we agree on everything the boys don't bother trying to play one against the other because they get the same answer whoever they ask!) My husband would never have allowed the boys to disrespect me; I am his WIFE, his soulmate, his counterpart, his equal, and above all else, an ADULT in charge. I don't know if the boys loved me right from the start because I am consistent and reliable (I reward them for positive behavior as much if not more than I correct them for poor behavior) and they know what to expect from me. I demand respect and I treat them with the same respect. They are able to express opinions and desires but in the appropriate context of children in a house. They fully understand their place in our family - and I'll tell you it's a stress-relief coming from BM's situation where the eldest became a worry wart because he questioned her competency as a parent. He would actually make statements like "well maybe if you were a better mother I would listen to you" and "maybe if you spent more time with us, I would like you more" - all this from a 6-year-old. He was SO relieved when I told him "your job is to worry about you, your brother's job is to worry about himself and our job, as parents, is to worry about everything else". Children having a place as children in the family is much easier on them as well as more fun - it takes the "need for control and manipulation" out of the situation. They can rest easy knowing someone very competent is in control. They enjoy knowing their boundaries, it creates a feeling of safety. We are a VERY loving and respectful household and I know when those boys leave home and find true love of their own, that they will know what it looks like (and what it doesn't because of their mom and dad together, as well as her parents relationship!) and when they are gone pursuing their dreams, my DH and I will be as close as we've always been, if not closer. People might judge me for the fact that we don't bow to our children but I know we're a happier family than probably 90% of families out there (blended or not!)and I'm pretty confident the boys will find the same happiness in life.

I've just got to say that another thing that kills me with all this blended family stuff is how many people make it an excuse for poor behavior. Step-families are not "natural" in that they involve multiple members with similar roles, but you show me a family aside from the Bradys or Cleavers that are perfect simply because mom and dad are "together". It's a cop-out. An excuse to allow children to rule the roost, an excuse to allow a passive husband to remain a doormat ("he feels guilty about the divorce".) Life is hard and simply because one child's "natural" parents still live together doesn't mean that that child is better off than a step-child. Did you ever think that children of blended families actually have it better than others? How many couples stay together, unhappily, for one reason or another (my personal favorite is "for the children" because everyone knows that hating your spouse and verbally abusing them is more "natural" than mommy and daddy living apart, right?)and that's the only example of a relationship those children know! Children whose parents own up to their mistakes and call it quits have the opportunity to see REAL love happen the next time around. Like mine have. And believe me, mine are grateful for what they have with us "blended" or not!

Okay...after writing the above seen novel I was able to read Jerseymom's last post.

How'd you say it so well in just a few paragraphs? You must be the Cliff's Notes version...I always preferred ole cliff. hee hee....

Couples don't have to stay together "unhappily" - they can decide to be happy together. There is no better reason to stay together than "for the children."

My children know they are more important than anything else in the world. And they know that the needs of those less capable of caring for themselves come first - just as I am responsible for taking care of their needs, they are responsible for taking care of the needs of their younger siblings if I am not there, and of their animals, before, say, eating breakfast. The other day one of my young adult children volunteered that if he needed to drive his youngest sibling to an afterschool activity, he would just put off going to the movies to another day. There was no resentment - it just goes without saying, in his mind, that taking care of his sibling comes first.

I, and when his father was here, he as well, set the example of the importance of putting those who are dependent on you first, and my children are doing the same thing. I couldn't be prouder of them.

I disagree that happiness is a decision. You are either happy or you aren't. And I don't think you really understand the point I'm getting at. My SS(s) are not deprived of love, education, affection, attention, food...ANYthing. Their bedtime stories come before my sitting down at the computer, their soccer practices and games come before my dishes, or laundry or schoolwork...whatever. They get what they need. Love and adoration included. When we sit down to watch a family movie, they crawl up into my lap and even if I'm not comfortable, I don't move them - I squeeze them and love them more times than I can count in a day. They get everything they need from DH and I, but the truth of the matter is that life is about love. You don't quest for "the one" so that you can create a life together only to put the child above your relationship. Then because your relationship was last on the priority list, you find yourself stuck with a person you hardly know once the kids grow up and leave to find their "one". True love IS everyone's quest and anyone who has it understands why. If you don't know how to have a loving LASTING relationship because you drop your husband anytime your child says "mom", then you've done yourself and your children a disservice. I understand that a newborn child is completely dependent on it's parents and that that child's needs are priority over anything else. That child's needs are a matter of survival. It does not mean that any child over the stage of COMPLETE dependency should be allowed to call ANY shots FOR the parents. If an 8-year old child is playing quietly in her room, looks out to see daddy snuggling SM and decides to run and jump between them saying "my daddy", the response of "I see you want some daddy time but right now is SM's time. Why don't you go back to what you were playing with in your room and I'll be in in 5 minutes and we'll play with it together" is not unjust! It doesn't say "daddy doesn't love me", it says "I need to share what I love and I will get rewarded for doing it nicely". The only thing it is depriving this child of is a life of undue entitlement. If I'm snuggling with my husband on the couch and the boys want me to play with them, they ask. And regardless of whether I'd rather be snuggling I usually get down and play with them. Funny how my 5 year old can ask politely for attention and this 8 year old acts like she's 2. It's all in what's expected of them.

I respect that your children understand responsibility. Mine are no less caring or responsible. The difference is, my husband and I understand that our job is to raise them to be independent of us and if we don't put the time and effort needed into our marriage then we will be left with nothing. We aren't salmon - we don't spawn and then die. Our mission in life is not just to raise kids, it's to find love, teach love, and KEEP love. When our children grow up and leave we are left, hopefully, with the love of our life anyways. The one we said "to death do us part" to not "until the kids are gone". Just as Jerseymom said: Our model of a healthy relationship is just as important as their homework, food, clean clothes, activities and friends. The best thing we can do for our children is provide them with the necessary tools for success in life and tell me love isn't the center of it?

I disagree. Happiness, within reason, is a decision. Love is a decision. I agree it would be hard to be happy if you just lost your parents when their airplane crashed into your house and burned it to the ground after you had just returned from receiving a diagnosis of terminal cancer - but you CAN decide to be happy with your partner. You presumably loved him or her once, and love is permanent.

My kids will always be my kids. They eventually move out, but they never move out of your heart or your life. My mission in life IS to raise kids. It used to be my husband's mission in life as well. He told people that his family was the most important thing in his life, and he did not let anything, including his job, unduly interfere with family time - until the depression struck and took over his life.

It is not possible to separate "marriage" from "family." Putting effort into raising your kids is putting effort into your marriage. They are not two separate entities. I love my children, and I love my husband. Both my H and I knew that the kids' well-being was paramount.

Maybe agree to disagree here.

When the man of my dreams walked into my life I didn't decide to love him. It just happened. I think that's why it's called "falling in love" and not "deciding to jump in love". I don't remember ever intentionally "falling" over (or into) anything. I think that people who don't experience true love can convince themselves that they are happy. My husband and I refer to our youthful "I thought that was love" days (including what he had with BM) with the law of relativity. It's amazing what you can THINK love is before you truly feel it. It's like thinking your house is the tallest structure on Earth and then seeing the Sears tower. There were other occasions in my life where I may have thought I was happy or that my choice in the matter made a difference. I now feel that you can choose to see a glass half empty or half full but optimism and happiness are two very different things that should not be confused. It would only deprive you of true happiness.

I agree that once kids are involved "marriage" becomes "family" but I disagree that putting an effort into raising your kids is putting effort into your marriage. Marriage consists of romance, love, sincerity, intimacy, passion that is separate from children. When the kids are in bed and my husband and I have a glass of wine and snuggle and kiss on our couch - that is where the line between the two is most obvious. We NEED us time just like they need daddy/mommy time. If all of our efforts went into the children and never into pleasing each other, our marriage would fail. There would be neglect, resentment, and unhappiness just brewing and stifling until it damaged the marriage beyond repair. My relationship with my husband is our marriage, our obligations to our children and 4-legged children is our family. They may go hand in hand and thrive off each other's success but if the children deplete all your energy for your husband (or physically or behaviorally come between you and your husband), your marital life will suffer. And vice versa if you neglect your children for your husband then your family life will suffer. They are both an integral part of a successful relationship but you can see one without the other. My parents' marriage sucked. He worked all the time and she spent all of her time with/for us. They were miserable in their "marriage" (never spoke, unless bickering, avoided any physical contact and spoke of divorce once we were grown and gone.) My mother died before they had to make that decision. During her illness,wake, funeral my family was a pillar of strength for each other. We are (and always were) a very close family. We did things together it was just understood that it would end in a big blowout or that Mom and Dad would just ignore each other. We were all very close and very supportive of each other but just because my dad worked 3 jobs so we could do things and my mom devoted all of her time and energy into raising us well, does not mean they had a good marriage. (good family, bad marriage.) You need to put as much energy into the love and passion you share with your husband as you do meeting all the needs of your children. And as a grown child of that marriage who's found true love for herself, I am sad that my parents never experienced how amazing it is. In part I feel responsible that their obligations to me as their child caused such pain for them for so long and prevented them from finding their own happy endings. They both deserved better.

Also, I never said that just because your children move out means you don't love them anymore, but if you put all of your energy into your children and not your love life, what are you left with when they leave? Or while they're there for that matter?

I am glad I don't believe that you can think you are happy only to find out you really weren't. If you feel happy, or content, then you are, by definition. Worrying about whether you are "really" happy is an easy way to make yourself miserable even when your life is great.

The "in love" feeling is due to chemical changes in the brain, and is not permanent. If you are lucky, that develops into a more mature, permanent love. Some people spend their lives seeking the high of the "in love" feeling, hopping from lover to lover.

To Steppin out -- haha! Thanks, that may be the first time in my life I was told that I said something in a cliff's notes way!! (apparently I talk a lot! LOL!!)

Anyway, I agree with you that you need to agree to disagree with TOS. In my early dealings with my SK's BM, I tried reasoning....but when you are from what feels like 2 different planets.....you just accept that their view of reality is quite different (notice, I didn't judge there....but....) and you realize that you just need to forge ahead without getting agreement. That was a turning point for me in this situation....

And to KKNY who thinks I was lucky to have grown up in an intact family....just because my parents didn't divorce doesn't mean that I hadn't wished for it from time to time. They did not provide a good model of a healthy relationship to me and it caused me some struggles of my own in adulthood.....I never saw my parents being affectionate or laughing together; never saw them as treating each other with respect (they weren't abusive...just....devoid of emotion); no situation is perfect and we just need to find our way and do the best we can. Do not believe that divorced familes = bad; intact = good; ok?

I love that (in front of my SS) my husband and I are affectionate, do laugh together, support each other and yes even fight -- it shows him real world and that just because you disagree doesn't mean you don't love or respect someone (which is his mother's message -- her way or "you don't love me?!"). So, my SS should thank God every day that his parents divorced....it was his only chance at a healthy shot at life.

thestepmom:

I don't think it's healthy for your fiance to grant every request that his 8 year old daughter demands. However, I'm a firm believer in one-on-one time. There must be daddy/daughter time. Is it really the fact that his daughter wants to spend time with just him alone or is it that he ignores and disregards your feelings? I would be upset if my husband intentionally made me feel like an outsider and inconsequential. Perhaps it's the manner in which he's communicating with you?

It's hard when your in one position and he's in another to fully understand each other's points of view. How I see it, the facts are (1) he has a daughter and he needs to spend a substantial amount of time with her alone, (2) as his soon-to-be wife, he needs to listen and try to understand your feelings of feeling like an outsider in your own home and (3) all three of you need to spend time together to acclimate yourselves and get to know each other. His daughter is permanent and once you get married, you will be too. Communication between him and you is the key to everything.

This message is not for about the original post, but I had to write in response to all that I have read.

TOS, it sounds like you have had a hard time with your divorce and I'm sorry that your marriage ended. It is okay to take care of yourself and you can love your children at the same time. You will show them that they can take time for theirselves when they have their own families. I understand your anger and I hope that you can let it go someday. You deserve a life full of joy and happiness. Take care and I will say prayers for you and your family.

TOS when did I say I worried about whether I was happy? I said when you find true love you realize how EVERYthing prior to it pales in comparison - obviously if you can't relate, you haven't been there. And when you are there - the "high" lasts. My DH and my close friends have been married 18 years and are still as giddy and lovey as they always were. They were high school sweethearts and still act like. Don't imply that our loves are "immature" simply because you can't understand it firsthand. True love grows and changes with time but the "high" doesn't diminish. We have a group of friends who all are married to their soulmate and we all talk about how our spouses still give us butterflies. And our marriages vary from a few years to almost twenty. If you don't "think" it's possible then go ahead and settle for less. Your loss.

ekcs400...you are a very sweet person. I felt that way too until I was offended for the umpteenth time. I guess I got bitter. Thanks for helping me see a little peace and integrity here...

Jerseystepmom...your situation and perspective sounds like mine. It is refreshing to have met you :) My DH and I laugh all the time and are the same as you and yours and when we hug and kiss, the boys smile at us and giggle. We also sometimes (though not frequently) disagree in front of the children and I think it is good for them to see that even in those times we are still respectful of each other and we "use words" to discuss the situation, our feelings, and make amends. We don't scream at the top of our lungs and say "I'm outta here" and slam the door like his X did. They see a healthy relationship and a healthy way to work out differences. How nice for them. They actually have a GOOD role model and we can hold them accountable for the same respect to each other when THEY disagree on something. AAHHHH how good families work! I too had an "intact" family growing up that I used to yell "why don't you just get divorced" to. BAD example of relationships and it took me a few tries to get it right. Fortunately I didn't marry any wrong ones or procreate with them! The one difference in our situation is that I am actually on good terms with BM (we email back and forth) she doesn't know my TRUE opinion of who she is or the fact that I keep all of our correspondences in a little manilla folder with her name on it (right next to "court info" hee hee) but I hear ya about TOS. What makes me so mad is that she is a BM who joined a step-family forum and then she just tears all of us up. It's down-right rude. I wouldn't walk into someone's house and tell them I think they suck or join AA to bash drunks. It's out of control that she views this behavior as okay. I guess that's why she thinks a spoiled 8-year-old should be rewarded for pitching a fit! Or that children of a previous marriage are made of gold and should be prayed to like a God because they are ALWAYS right. God forbid a child learn to DEAL with change or a difficult situation. Coddling them helps make their lives easier, though, right? Sorry..I'm getting worked up again. It's not that I wanted her to agree with everything I said, I simply wanted her to see that all SMs aren't evil, useless, husband-stealing, child-abusing (or neglecting, or stealing - depending on her opinion of the day!) wenches. But whatever, I give up. It's completely not worth it.

Steppin out: good to meet you too -- it is nice to know that other people understand, isn't it?! And, I mean "fighting" the same way you do -- it isn't throwing a tantrum, it is disagreeing....sometimes maybe even a little louder than others....and while my SS sees/hears that, he also sees the way we find our way to resolution....without manipulation, without being mean, without throwing a tantrum....it shows something that I didn't learn until later in life: forgiveness and letting it go, etc. etc...

And, while my relationship with BM is much better and we do have civil email correspondence about things....I never, ever forget how she operates and what she is capable of (guess, like you, with an eye towards....the legal folder!) For me it gets fun sometimes because I'm very organized and on top of things (well, she called me a "control freak" but, whatever, I get things done!) and she is not.....so it helps. Plus, if you always tell the truth, you don't need to "remember" what you told who. That trips her up sometimes LOL!

I hear ya on the lying stuff...that's funny. I am the SAME way as far as remembering what she is capable of. My situation is that she isn't necessarily a manipulative person, she's just a "me" type of person. Hence the reason she has kids in the first place. She was 20 and in college but saw all of her friends having babies so she decided that that was what she wanted. When she talked to DH about it he said "after we graduate and get married" so she just stopped taking her pill. (the second child was the first talk of divorce) What she wants, she gets, period. I actually feel sad for her that she had to "force" someone to marry her and stay with her by using children. It's sad to think that your husband isn't staying with you because he likes who you are and can't live without you but because of his obligation to his child(ren)! So she got her babies and kept my husband for a little while. The problem with having kids that she didn't foresee was how VERY time-consuming the lil' buggers can be. That wasn't any fun for her! And it just wasn't what she wanted at THAT time in her life anymore. So, instead, she sat home and "looked for work" (aka emailed/texted X's) but put the kids in daycare so she didn't have to deal with them (afterall, she was "looking for work!) DH worked 3 jobs to make it happen (he was a little naive then and really tried to make his marriage to "princess entitlement" work) But...he eventually got tired of being her "enabler" (mommy and daddy were the originals and the reason she is who she is!) realized she was cheating on him and when she took his kids to stay with an X while he was away at school for a military job-related thing (after he said it was inappropriate marital behavior and to wait to visit until he was around to go as well), he finally had had enough. She always kicks herself after the fact but she's never really had to deal with ANY consequences to any of her choices so she doesn't THINK about what really could happen. Plus someone always fixes it for her. Daddy still enables her to this day! And she inevitably finds a way to get what she wants at the time she wants it without thinking about what could happen. It is REALLY convenient for us that we understand her so well (probably better than she knows herself!) We work her volatile, instant-gratification nature into ALL of our interactions with her. We will do the same with our plans to permanently change primary custody and my possible adoption of the boys later down the road. What do they say "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"? Ain't that the truth.

Thank you to those of you that actually understand my point.
I do believe he lets her get away with it because he does feel guilty, I have told him that maybe he would benefit from some counseling, he lost his dad at a young age and he doesn't want her to feel that she "lost" him because of the divorce. I also agree,her mom does play a large role in the issue. She has admitted it herself, saying mommy tells her to misbehave to cause us to argue. She makes her feel bad for having fun when shes here with us. She at times has even told her that he has a new life with me and that she doesn't fit in. BM has an older daughter from a previous relationship and she tells her that the older daughter is the only thing she has (older daughter doesn't see her dad, long weird story) and that since the 8yr old likes being with dad that makes her HIS daughter. She has told her dad that she has heard her mom talking with friends that she hates him and that she doesn't like for her to say those things about him.
Thats why I feel it isn't a lost case,the child is obviously confused or atleast thats how I feel. which is why I do make sure they have their alone time so they can talk and they can bond and I try to find ways to understand, ways to deal with it better. I know she has her attitude she has quite a temper,its well known by everyone in his family, but I think its made worse by her feeling in conflict with herself about the situation.
Thats why I am frustrated, because we try so hard to make her feel comfortable to make sure she understand that we are a family that she is very important to us and she still acts up.......

It is said to hear a mother saying those things to the child... it doesnt hurt the person the mother is trying to hurt ... it hurts her little girl and puts the little girl in a very sad situation ... one that dad might should consider taking her out of...

If the mother saying all of this is truly the case then it is no wonder she acts up... she is so confused, she doesnt know how to act. that is not to say you should tolerate that kind of behavior but at least you can use a delicate hand knowing where it is coming from

I try as much as I can. Its not easy though to try and try and still get the disrespect.
From the begining I knew there were going to be problems, when she found out we moved in together she disappeared with the child for 3months, including Fathers day, telling the child that daddy had a new life,among other things she said that I feel are not things you tell a child.
We have been to court quite a few times ( I have huge court files) Every time we go to court she tells her and usually follows with telling her your daddy is going to jail, which makes her a nervous wreck and he gets phone calls from her hiding in the bathrm so no one hears her asking if everything is ok. I have tried opening communication with her, which just angers her more and then what happens is that we won't hear from the child for a day or two. I have told her we don't have to be best friends just civil for the childs sake, but nothing.
Thats why when ppl jump to conclusions on this forum that I am the problem or that I am jealous or that she bothers me, it upsets me. Cause that couldn't be futher from the truth.

oh wow... hiding in the bathroom... poor girl... has he tried to just get full custody of her??

Dont plan on her ever really getting around to being nice... my hubbys ex just decided that the new reason that she doesnt like me is because of the clothes that I wear... it's ludacris I dress trendy but appropriate and yes I have a large top half (if you know what I mean) but it is not like I can help that and I am always covered up... but I am not going to not wear tanks and what not in florida in the middle of summer...just because she takes no pride in her appearance doesnt mean I have too... its just another lame excuse for her behavior.

We have seen an attorney who advised us that in the state of Florida its hard to get primary custody taken away from a mother. He has been to court to amend the visitation quite a few times, but nothing out of the ordinary has been granted. Thats why he makes an effort to go to her school and participate in activites with her and to be involved.
Phone calls are controled adn supervised by her. She only allows her to call her dad once a day on speaker, even though she told him if he wanted to talk to her more often to get her a cell phone so that she wouldn't have to use hers, so we did and she makes her keep it off or hides it from her during the day. Then when her dad asks her about it she tells him that her mom told her that the judge said that she could only call him once a day.
As for her not being a pleasant person to me, I kinda knew it was going to happen, I just hoped an effort would be made to be civil for the child in the middle. But I guess she chooses to hold on to her little list of things she doesn't like abut me.

I guess that putting it in written word I realized just how messed up this situation is. No wonder shes so angry all the time. The majority of the time all she hears is negativity. I guess it makes sense, then she comes over here and she just releases her frustrations cause she knows we will take it cause we have been.

thestepmom: We are in Florida as well and the way the court favors BM's is completely frustrating. I am a BM and an SM and I can see both sides. In my divorce, I would have been fine with the courts starting us both out on equal footing and deciding from there who is the more appropriate CP. I know I would have come out on top. I have my son full time and his father doesn't even visit. In my DH's case, he definitely is the better parent, but because he can't prove she is a crack smoking hooker, then nothing can be done. We just found out my 12 year old SD will be repeating 6th grade because of no homework or classwork and absences, but 2 attorneys have told us that is still not enough to even warrant a temporary change in custody. BTW, we take them to all medical appts, dental appts, hair cuts, etc. She just collects child support. Wish some Florida BF could get together and work to change this situation that does nothing but hurt children.

We are in the same boat then, my SD is failing as well for the 2nd year now. Last year we were able to get her a tutor with enough time for her to re-test and get her to pass, but this year mom refused to take her and didn't allow us to pick her up on our non-days to take her to tutoring so I don't know how thats going to work out he has been talking to the teachers to see what we can work out to get her re-tested. Mom doesn't feel its such a big deal and that he's over re-acting. We took her to Sylvan got her tested to see exactly what attention she needs and are obviously willing to pay for it all, she won't even call and talk to the director.
The system is very frustrating, when she disappeared for those 3months, we couldn't find anyone to help. When she re-appeared she called him and told him if you want to see your daughter come to meet me and she gave him an address when he went there she called the police stating he was stalking her, we didn't even know where she was!! but they took him in the attorney obviously cleared things up but she sure did try. It really sucks for those good fathers out there.

My SD was able to pass the FCAT, so we thought they were still going to promote her even though she failed all year long. But, the school put their foot down and said because her grades were so bad, they were going to keep her back even though she passed FCAT. It is very frustrating. One comment BM made to my DH after finding out SD was being held back was "Now you have to pay CS for one more year because our decree states until 18 unless she hasn't graduated from high school." See where her priorities are.

Its quite interesting cause at times I found myself even taking the x's side, I would tell my fiancee, you know shes a single mom and she works till 7 I could understand that when she gets home she probably tired and he would tell me it was unacceptable. Then we slowly started finding things out. Maybe shes of the same mind set, cause our decree states the same thing.

My dh's ex doesn't work and is re-married so she can't even use the "I am a tired single mom" excuse.

Thank you steppin out,
I was begining to think I was the only on that thought like that.

My soon to be mom-in -law feels I make excuses for my SD's behavior sometimes. She feel she should find comfort in me not treat me like the enemy. I guess it makes sense, she might just be getting fueled by BM then explodes here. But what are we to do? I have tried everything. Any reading material anyone could suggest?

I like "Co-Parenting with a Jerk" alot. I know the title sounds bad, but really it is a great book. Our attorney gave it to us.

There are TOO many posts to read all of it!! But I'm currenty a SM to three SC and I was a SM to two SC in my previous marriage. I love all of my SC and I have been exactly were "thestepmom" is. I want to give you a scenerio and maybe it will help you and all of the members

When you and Hubby go out to BUY a new born puppy and bring them home together as a family. You establish rules and you train your puppy to be housebroken. You will do this in a loving manner but you will do this as a united front because if one of you allows the puppy to jump on the furniture he/she will do it all of the time. But if the parents are UNITED then the puppy knows to never go on the furniture. Now the second scenerio, you and hubby get married and he brings his DOG of 9 yrs into your home that you bought together and the dog jumps on the White couch that you have now bought togehter. At this point you are ferious but hubby says well honey he's always been allowed to jump on the couch. So, nows there is 2 solutions you go buy new couches that are stain resistant or retrain the dog to not jump on the couch. But in order to teach/retrain the dog not to, both of you have to be on a UNITED front and not allow the dog to break the rules and eventually the dog will learn not to jump on the couch.

I KNOW THAT SOMEONE IS GOING TO SAY THAT YOU CAN'T COMPARE CHILDREN TO DOGS!! All I was mearly doing was puttin it into a perspective that all can understand.

And if hubby doesn't want to retrian/teach his daughter to follow the RULES then I suggest counseling for you and him and then maybe bring the daughter in. And if he refuses to do that then your in for a LONG and TIRING life or you'll wind up like most "DIVORCED", I hope it was helpful and I don't mean to be rude I'm just very frank!!
Sincerely,
Happilyevermom

The sensible thing to do would be not buy a white couch to begin with. You knew the dog jumped on couches; it is unfair to the dog to change the rules in the middle of the game, and it would be difficult and likely take a very long time (or forever) to teach the dog not to jump on the couch. And you would end up with a dog that resented the intruder.

First off, dogs aren't that sophisticated. They don't harbor "resentment." They're all about conditioned response and instinct--and conditioned response can be changed. Sometimes it ain't easy, but it can be done. Changing the rules is a part of life and happens all of the time. Thank goodness living, breathing things have the power of adaptation.

Second, if I decided I wanted a white couch you can be damn sure I'd have one and I'd have every right to expect that it be treated with the respect that it deserves. Just because something "always been done that way" doesn't mean that it can't or even shouldn't change. There's nothing inherently wrong with change.

Dogs can most certainly feel resentment.

Perhaps eventually the dog would learn not to jump on the white couch, but it wouldn't be white any longer by that time. As an adult, it is your responsibility to be flexible enough to refrain from having everything just the way you want it if doing so is incompatible with kids or dogs, if you have them. Perhaps you like expensive crystal and glass topped tables and bookcases - but those would be really bad choices for a family with a toddler. Perhaps you like to have your drain cleaner handy, and child proof locks are a pain in the neck, but putting drain cleaner within reach of a toddler would be neglectful. When "natural consequences" can be fatal, or when expensive property is at risk of being destroyed, it is far better to change the environment than to try to train the child or the dog.

Yep, I had a 3-year-old and a 6-year-old and a huge glass cabinet full of crytal and china in my dining room. I had a glass-topped table, too. I had plenty of my mother's depression glass candy dishes on the endtables. That's been 10 years ago now and every single piece is still intact.

No I did not constantly ride my kids about being careful, but nobody was playing basketball in the house or riding skateboards or shooting paintball guns either. I hope that it taught them to have respect for certain things. Those things mean a lot to me as they belonged to my (now gone) mother. It's a nice collection that someday they'll inherit.

I just don't beleive that everything has to be kid-friendly all of the time.

You are lucky that neither child fell and injured himself. I would have hesitated to send my preschooler to a home decorated like that - more for concern for his safety than for concern for your possessions. My kids have never ridden skateboards etc. in the house, but they have certainly fallen, especially as preschoolers and toddlers.

Forget preschoolers and toddlers...sometimes its the teenagers that are more klutzy!! All those limbs going every which way! And don't get me started on 13 year old girls running through the house in my heels!!! Accidents happen, however, I make every attempt to teenage proof the house - for their safety and my sanity!!!!

Lonepiper, I couldnt agree wiht you more. One of my friends at work said he would cover his couches in stainless steel if he could. I try to enforce a shoes off rule (other than sneakers), becuase the heels tear up the vinyl floor.

OH NO, NOT THE "SHOES ON/OFF TOPIC!"

LOL

Run, run for your lives.....!!!

Seriously, I have had no trouble with either of my kids or any of their friends wrecking stuff. And as far as falling, I worry FAR more about my ancient dog on the tile and wood floors than I do about those kids. She's much more of a fall risk than they are.

Can you guys PLEASE get over your bitterness????
It's absolutely ridiculous! You take EVERY situation and turn it into "she's jealous and selffish" and she's "just trying to be mom", or she just wants all the time to herself. GET OVER IT. If you would take the time and READ the post, you would see that she's asking for help in how to deal with it. She DOES NOT WANT TO LIMIT THEIR INTERACTION. SHE DOES NOT WANT DH'S ATTENTION ALL THE TIME. SHE WANTS HELP WITH A SNOTTY, CONTROLLING 8-YEAR OLD GIRL.
Your bitterness is really not necessary on this site. Its really no wonder why your DHs left. If you would take your head out of your a** for just ONE minute, you would see that most of these women are looking for support and for ways to solve their problems. This isn't a bashing site. If all you have to say is something negative towards SM's then find another site. The women here are actually trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE.