the only problem seems to be that some bm's see their children as "property", "things" over which they are the ONLY ones who will decide what happens to them. Which means that any treacherous male who dares try to replace me with damaged goods i.e. sm will see what I can do. Yes, I do find that concept scary kkny.

younger... she must be a toy.
prettier... she must be eye candy.
wealthier... she must be buying exH's love, devotion, etc.
smarter... she must be manipulating him to love her.

But what if she isn't.... What if she's....

poorer... she must be using him.. she's a gold digger.
has kids of her own... she just wants a daddy for her kids.
uglier/fatter... he must be desperate... super desperate if she's both.
and if she's older... she's just using him as a boy toy. Or he's just using her as a sugar mama.

hmmmm, couldn't be that he actually found someone that makes him feel the way he wants to feel.... the way his ex either couldn't or didn't want to. It couldn't be that he really LOVES her... nope, he is depressed or has deep issues that she manipulated, stroked his ego, flung herself at him and chased him relentlessly and he's the poor victim of her plot.

and I agree Sweeby, it's such an easy concept. It wasn't easy to do when my son went to his dad's and his stepmom was terrible to me. I sucked it up and hoped that by taking the high road, she wouldn't be terrible to him. IMO, that's what a loving mom does. She doesn't try to keep the kids from visiting dad.

If a Stepmom is.... IMA that is perfection!!!!!!Couldnt have expressed that any better....

Ima, my DD is a typical teenager, she is her own person. Why is it so hard to accept that children may resent their parents marriage breaking up, resent step parents and some step parents (even unknowingly) treat their own children better. But go off in your little world where SMs are perfect and the mom is causing all the problems. And wonder why so many second marriages fail. Maybe sometimes SMs see themselves as perfect and only after their marriage fails realize that everything they thought about mom wasnt true.

Ima,

I am sorry your mother was this way, the affects of an alcoholic parent are devestating.

I do wonder why your father left you in the care of your Mom though. It seems to me both parents failed you and your SM gave you help as an adult.

This is not typical of what the vast majority of children in blended family situations deal with and now I can understand some of your stances.

There was a SM on another board who claimed many of the things some SM's here are saying - the mother was a terrible mom, a drug user, the SM cared so much more about the child. She also claimed that the father's marriage had been "over" before she started seeing him. Her husband had obtained primary physical custody of his son. She posted for a couple of years - then her husband started cheating on her, taking his son with him while seeing the other other woman, and he started using cocaine. Not surprisingly, that marriage ended. Then she started posting about how she understood how the first wife felt, how she was actually a rather good mother, how she finally realized that his first marriage had not actually been "over." To top it off, she seemed not to mind at all that she never again even saw the boy whom she had claimed to have been so fond of.

This SM would have probably been right there with you claiming the the child's mother should have appreciated her, that she was a great SM, that there was no reason for the mother to say anything negative about her, that she had done nothing wrong. Interesting how her perspective changed after another other woman came on the scene.

KKNY - "I do know IRL several divorced moms whose daughters look at Dads new younger SO as a toy"

Okay so I am quite a bit younger than BM. But SHE cheated and SHE left and SHE married a man that makes more money and SHE had a baby with him. So, according to the logic here, anyone who would see BF and I would automatically think that I was the reason for the breakup since I'm more "youthful" and, therefore a "toy", and judge him. That's so unfortunate. He and I didn't get together until after they had been divorced over a year. But if everyone thought the way you did, I wouldn't have a chance in hell at being happy with the man I love. Thank God they don't!

DAMN!!!

I thought the monster left....

"There was a SM on another board who claimed many of the things some SM's here are saying - the mother was a terrible mom, a drug user, the SM cared so much more about the child."

This thread is about my perspective of being a child of a mom that tried to poison my relationship with my dad because she didn't like my stepmom, and I never claimed my stepmom cared so much more about me, but I do claim even now that her advice has helped me more in my life than my mom's advice. (and for anyone that cares, my mom's alcoholism had very little to do with her attitude. She no longer drinks but she continues to say nasty things about my stepmom that has been in a vegetative state for 12 years. Who was it that said we don't get to pick our parents... YEAH)

"She also claimed that the father's marriage had been "over" before she started seeing him. Her husband had obtained primary physical custody of his son. She posted for a couple of years - then her husband started cheating on her, taking his son with him while seeing the other other woman, and he started using cocaine. Not surprisingly, that marriage ended."

There's no surprise that a cheater will continue to cheat. My mom has never had a real relationship since her marriage to my dad ended. Therefore, she hasn't had anyone to cheat on but it doesn't surprise that kkny's ex is cheating on his GF or that finedreams ex cheats on all his wives. Anyone that marries a married cheater that leaves their spouse for them, whether the relationship with their spouse is dead or not, should know that the character of the cheater is 'they are a cheater'. Boo Hoo, don't come crying when he cheats on you. That's common sense.

"Then she started posting about how she understood how the first wife felt, how she was actually a rather good mother, how she finally realized that his first marriage had not actually been "over." To top it off, she seemed not to mind at all that she never again even saw the boy whom she had claimed to have been so fond of."

She'll never understand how the first wife felt. Unless the first wife met him while he was together with someone else and she knew he left someone for her, she probably didn't know she was marrying a cheater. The second wife did. To top it off, if she didn't seem to mind never seeing the child she claimed to be so fond of, then that is a character flaw in her. It's no surprise that a woman that gets involved with a man that's in a 'dead' marriage would have a character flaw where they can build a relationship with a stepchild and then not care when it ends.

"This SM would have probably been right there with you claiming the the child's mother should have appreciated her, that she was a great SM, that there was no reason for the mother to say anything negative about her, that she had done nothing wrong. Interesting how her perspective changed after another other woman came on the scene."

It will be interesting to see your perspective change if you should ever get married again and become a stepmom. Or if your children marry someone with a child and becomes a step parent. With the divorce rates what they are, statistically your kids have a better chance of ending up as stepparents than you or me. (and I'm already one)

Ima,

I think both TOS and I would be very very careful about entering into a serious relationship with a man with children, and I would certainly give same advice to my daughter. I think there was a thread here about whether people would do it again (become a stepmom), and it was not pretty.

THis is the main reason why i no longer attempt to even have a close relationship to my stepkids and i still hesitate now to even help them with homework when they ask because of their mother. She would throw fits, drill them and even throw out their homework and make them work double time.
Basically she would punish them.
My SD now shows resentment for both parents and now SS is starting to voice his opinion about mom saying bad things about daddy. So i sit back and watch as she destroys her kids selfesteem and values because of her own lack of respect and her own selfish wants over her precious children. I see the loyalty she has for her mother. I see she likes me but holds back cause she knows it will upset her mom.
So ima, my SD is growing up the way you described. She has already begun to fight with her mother. And evne though they do not get along she loves her mom , she loves her friends and will not leave. I'm glad she has her grandparents and her peers to be by her side while she lives and has to listen to all the negative babble talk of her mother. Its sad.
When my mother died., i had 3 mothers in returned. Its just so sad they biomom in my case cannot put aside the hate she has for her ex husband and put her kids best interest forward and realize i am not a threat to her position and that i do care for her kids when they are under our roof.
I give them breakfast every mornings and play games with them. I'll go shopping but now adays SD stays away from those as well. Its sad. So i've stopped asking if she wants to come with me.

"I think both TOS and I would be very very careful about entering into a serious relationship with a man with children, and I would certainly give same advice to my daughter. I think there was a thread here about whether people would do it again (become a stepmom), and it was not pretty."

Are you and TOS an item now? You seem to group yourselves together like one goes with the other. What's up with THAT?

What makes you think anyone here was not very very careful? I cringe when I start to imagine the things you must tell (warn/advice/whatever you wanna call it) your poor daughter.
It's bad enough she's had to go through her parent's divorce, especially a cheating father, but just from the attitude that YOU put out on here, it's being made perfectly clear that you are not making it any easier for her. Kids from divorce sometimes have more difficulty in relationships and with your, perhaps well meaning, advice on prenups and men with children, it wouldn't surprise me if your daughter were to write off ever getting married. Don't you think a kid might have 'trust' issues when they find out dad wasn't the family man she thought he was? Don't you think she might worry that all guys cheat? Maybe all guys leave their families? After all, mom & dad were married for 20 years and he left for a younger prettier version. Well, no worries. Let's add in mom that has to remind her that you can't trust anyone.. get a prenup. You can't love just anyone... if he has kids... RUN. But you love him? No, That's not acceptable if he has kids. What a wonderful mom you are. I think we have a winner of the Mother of the Year award.

And I thought my mom had that prize.

Ima, Whose the bitter one?

I think I have read enough of TOSs positngs that I could say that she would hesitate to become a SM.

I think trust can be built up -- a prenup isnt necessarily a sign of lack of trust -- there are many situations where it makes sense. Speak to any financial planner.

As to men with children, we've already have polls here re would I be a SM again, and they've been pretty conclusive. Even when people think they are getting into manageable situations, they change after wedding. Mom wants kids more. Mom wants kids less. Thats life.

"Ima, Whose the bitter one?"

Between you or TOS??? LMAO ~coin toss~

With some exception, I see many SP's that say 'not again' because they have to deal with a bitter ex wife, which you and TOS represent very well.

As for issues after the wedding.. wanting more or less kids.. that's not a step family issue. That's an issue that couples should discuss BEFORE marriage. Couples in first marriages that don't discuss those issues are going to have the same problems. The difference is, that in step families, there are usually more people (ex's) involved in it.

And keep telling yourself whatever you want to help you justify it, but teens don't usually associate marriage and prenup. Unless you're Paris Hilton rich.

Ima, whether or not H and W want children, of course they should discuss. My point was that even where W expects that H will have his children from prior marriage EOW, that can change.

And I think there are plenty of children who aren't Paris Hilton who understand a prenup. Children who will be entering family business. Children who will be gifted or inherit substantial amounts, but less than Paris Hilton.

I understand you had a difficult childhood, and you have my sympathy. I just don't think you should project that on every mom you encounter.

kkny, I understand that you are having a very difficult middle age, and i don't think you should project that on every stepmom you encounter.

Please pardon me for interrupting this scintilating arguement that seems to be going nowhere, but I would like to point out that Ima's situation is much, much more common than you think. I know so many people with screwed up childhoods. More of those situations than fairly normal ones, like mine. I love to hear how people overcome adversity. It shows so much charachter.

My X niece was born a twin. She had severe hormonal imbalances that caused her female organs to be under developed. She had to have surgery at 5 days old to fix her little tiny uterus and ovaries and fallopian tubes so that one day they would be functional. She had too much testosterone in her body. An amnio haad stated that they were to be 2 boys. Instead she was born a girl with a boy twin. The boy had too much testosterone. Both are on meds to calm the effects of the testosterone on their bodies. If they were to get off the meds, she would stop having a period and he would grow hair all over his body. Their dad (Xs brother) basicaly abandoned them. GP got GP rights and picked them up once a month, but BD only saw them once a year. Anyway, shortly after X and I split, the twins were 13. She told an officer at her school that her SF was molesting her. CPS took the kids away and gave them to GP. Then the courts granted custody to BD whom they barely knew. Well niece just graduated 2 weeks ago WITH honors and a scholorship. If that's not beating the odds of a bad childhood, I don't know what is.

And that someone would marry someone with children having been through the same situation themselves is so very admirable. She could've just said "No way, I'm not putting any child through what I've been through" and been justified in that, too. But it speaks so much more that she loves this man enough to overcome her childhood and strive for a normal one for his daughter. Giving her a loving home she would've never had.

Ima - you not only have my sympathy but you have my respect.

Colleen, I have no where the difficulties that Ima did. I actualy think I have a pretty good life for a divorcee of a 25+ year divorcee. The non-financial part of that is my DD is a pretty good kid and lives with me. (which I think is common for people having been married a while). The finanical part of that I attribute to my having a professional degree, and never having stopped working, albeit part time, when I was married, and part is my X and I are both good with money, have no substance abuse problems, etc.

The purpose of sharing my past (regarding my mom) is so that maybe those mother's that put their children in the middle or make comments that they don't think are 'that bad' or share things that put the child on 'their side' or give a team spirit (we'll stick together to get through this) or trying to teach their child through their pain can know what it does to a child.

Sure, a child might benefit from learning that an affair is bad. But, when it's done while dad (or mom) is the one having the affair, they personalize it. After all, they are part of dad and mom. They might even adopt the idea that they weren't good enough children, that dad/mom wasn't happy with the family and they are somehow responsible for it. Kids tend to find a way to make it their fault.

Discussing some things with kids that are already under stress from the break up of their family can add stress. It's one thing to discuss affairs, financial planning or relationships with our children, but when you are discussing them while you are going through a crisis that involves the subject matter, it clouds the issue.

Thank you to all that understand my point. The point won't reach those that are too thick to see anything beyond their own pain. I feel for their children, because my mom won't stop herself either. Even when she knows what she is doing hurts her kids. The funny thing about my childhood, is I don't see that it was 'tragic' or as someone else said "extreme". I had two parents and a good family life. When I was a teen, they had financial problems and my mom resorted to an affair (which led to divorce) and drinking to deal with it. I don't think that's very uncommon at all. I was a screwed up kid of divorce that made a lot of bad decisions. I was rebellious and angry at how my mom dealt with her problems. I also don't think that is so uncommon. My childhood was not perfect but I have never considered it a 'difficult' childhood. I guess it's all open to our own interpretation of what is difficult.

Ima, I include the teenage years as a child, in that one is still dependent upon the family (or the family should be tehre for the child). I have never discussed any crises (actually I don't think I ever really had a crises). And I never told DD that Dad had an affair -- she and his friends figured that out for themselves.

The mom isn't necessarily the reason that every SM's family doesn't blend. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, and sometimes the SM isn't the person who can make it happen.

As to who is too thick to see beyond their own pain? Just because you say it is me doesnt make it so.

Some people just aren't happy and never will be what's sad is when they try to keep those around them down too. When DH asked me to marry him his son wrapped his arms around me and began to cry. He said I love you like a mom but I don't want my mom to know, she'll be mad (and he was right.) His mother's bitterness seethes into everything she does. She tries her hardest to make things difficult but she has succeeded in only bringing us all closer together. I am a better mother to my children and stepchildren because of her. We have more suppport from family and friends because of her behavior. MIL encourages me often and thanks me for loving her son and grandsons enough to endure X. FIL always says- your day is coming, love comes back to you.

I am so glad that you have posted and developed a relationship with SM and yet so sorry that you have to endure your mothers insecurities and bitterness. In truth this happens even in intact familes as often but the presense of SM gives greater fuel to the fire.

My mom and dad divorced over 30 years ago and my mom STILL talks about it. It makes me and all my siblings sick. How can a mother do this to their child? My mom likes to forget that 50% of my gene's are my dads. If he's so bad, then 50% of ME must be bad too, right mom? Get over it!!!!

I think in cases when mother is really no good and father is uninvolved it is great that there is SM, or a grandmother, or an unlce etc who can be there for a child or for adult child who needs serious guidance. If there happened to be a nice and helpful SM i am totally all for it. I totally understand where imamommy is coming from. Her SM was there when no one else was. It was of course selfish of mom to say anything bad about SM when she herself allow young girl to have no guidance. I don't see it as common (luckily most moms and dads are there for their kids) but I guess it does happen.

I don't buy it that if BM speaks bad about SM it is supposed to prevent dads from being involved wiht their children or to make sure children see them on regular basis.

i think it is very common excuse that men use: my ex poisoned my kids, my ex speaks bad about my new wife blah blah. i see it as an excuse.

Every men who is not involved wiht his children would give you some kind of excuse and evil BM is the easiest one.

As much as my X sucks as a partner if I would try to prevent DD from seeing him by speaking poorly about him or SM, he would not let it effect his time with DD. Knowing my X, he would go to a great length to make sure he sees DD and he is there for her in time of need, what I would say about SM is irrelevant. Whatever else happens in his or my life has nothing to do with being parents.

I don't want to do anything wiht men who do not see kids on regular basis and if they use excuse: my ex speaks bad about SM or my kis don't want to see me because BM brainwahsed them, i don't believe ir. It is just an easy way out. By the same token when SMs here talk about BMs uninvolved it is easy to say it is because DHs and SMs are bitter and make it difficult to see the kids. i don't buy that either.

I have posted before that I can't imagine remarrying anyone, much less someone with minor children, at least until all my kids are grown. Since I will be pretty old by then, I doubt very much that I will ever remarry.

I think children are more likely to blame themselves for the divorce when their parents give vague excuses like "Mommy and Daddy weren't happy." If children know that one of their parents had an affair, they know that it wasn't something the children did that caused the divorce.

I would definitely caution my children about marrying someone with children.

I think the reason Ima had difficult teenage years with her mother was primarily because her mother was an alcoholic. Not to mention an adulterer.

"This thread is about my perspective of being a child of a mom that tried to poison my relationship with my dad because she didn't like my stepmom"

I don't understand. Your original post has nothing to do with your father, other than he didn't know how to communicate to you when you called him for help and turned the phone over to your SM.

What happened in the four years post-divorce and before your fathers remarriage? Did your Mom facilitate visitation with your father?

I understand that every situation is different and this is NOT a dig, but I truly do not understand what you posted if it is to show that some BM's ruin a relationship with fathers. What your original post showed me that as an adult your mother tried to prevent a relationship between you and your SM, but didn't interfere with you and your father from what you have posted.

TOS, you may be right that with vague excuses as to why mom and dad broke up they will come to their own, likely false, conclusions. BUT, on the flip side if you tell them "Daddy left because we didn't have sex enough" what does that teach a young girl? Or how about 'Mommy is leaving daddy because he's a no good SOB who can't do anything right?" That child is 50% of 'him', so then the child feels they are 50% bad. There may be times when telling a child the truth about the split is appropriate, but there may also be times that is does more harm than good. The level of detail given should be age appropriate, IMO.

JNM,

I didn't hear TOS advocating any of the statements you made. There is a difference between Dad committing adultery (which in TOSs case, some of the children figured out on their own, and in mine my child did) -- and the things you are talking about. And I think TOS and I both try to see that our children can see the Dad as often as the few times he wants.

JNM,

Adultery is (usually) a verifiable fact, as opposed to opinions like "your father is an SOB." Even the courts take the fact that the accused adulterer is living with another woman/man as pretty solid proof of adultery. Adultery is grounds for fault-based divorce - being an SOB isn't.

Yes, KK and TOS, but I wasn't referring to TOS' situation. She referred to children, not her children, and I was giving additional hypotheticals beyond adultery. I wasn't speaking on fault/no fault divorces, either. I was discussing how and what to tell about a child as to the cause of the split. And I made no mention of seeing dad at all.
How 'bout we quit looking so far for things to pick apart that we see things that aren't even there?

KKNY said:
"As to who is too thick to see beyond their own pain? Just because you say it is me doesnt make it so."

Can you show me where I said that about YOU? I guess if you take it personally, it might be more so than you want to admit.

FD says:
"I think in cases when mother is really no good and father is uninvolved it is great that there is SM, or a grandmother, or an unlce etc who can be there for a child or for adult child who needs serious guidance. If there happened to be a nice and helpful SM i am totally all for it. I totally understand where imamommy is coming from. Her SM was there when no one else was"

This philosophy makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me. It's only okay to have a SM give advice or guidance if mom AND dad are not good or not involved? So, if you have ONE good parent, then there's no need for anyone to offer advice? My dad was not 'uninvolved'. Where the hell do you get THAT? My mom gave me a guilt trip whenever I went to visit him. She'd make me feel like she was being left all alone. My sister lived with my dad and my mom would remind me that my dad had my sister to keep him company. Whenever I wanted to see my dad, he made sure I could go. I was also a teenager and wanted to hang out with my friends.

FD says:
"I don't buy it that if BM speaks bad about SM it is supposed to prevent dads from being involved wiht their children"

Talking badly about SM doesn't directly prevent dads from being involved with their children. Where does it say that?

theotherside says:
"I think the reason Ima had difficult teenage years with her mother was primarily because her mother was an alcoholic. Not to mention an adulterer."

Really? Did you figure that out all by yourself? But, are you trying to say that if she didn't drink or cheat, that she would not have become a bitter ex wife that made her kids feel guilty and force them to choose sides? I disagree because she stopped drinking many years ago and she is still bitter, jealous & insecure.... even after 20+ years of divorce.

Monster says:
"I don't understand. Your original post has nothing to do with your father, other than he didn't know how to communicate to you when you called him for help and turned the phone over to your SM."

You mean with your expertise in social services and mental health and you can't figure out what the original post is about?

"What happened in the four years post-divorce and before your fathers remarriage? Did your Mom facilitate visitation with your father?"

Let's see. My mom cheated on dad while they were married. She drank a bit then and dad finally left. My sister went with dad. I stayed. I didn't want to leave my mom all alone. I also had my friends at school and didn't want to move 2 hours away from them. After dad left, mom drank even more (dad didn't really know how bad it was until we talked about it when I was in my late 20's) and depended on me for 'friendship'. She used me to talk to about her problems and while she never told me not to go visit my dad, I was made to feel like I was abandoning her if I left. Her insecurity existed with and without her drinking. They are separate issues.

"I understand that every situation is different and this is NOT a dig, but I truly do not understand what you posted if it is to show that some BM's ruin a relationship with fathers. What your original post showed me that as an adult your mother tried to prevent a relationship between you and your SM, but didn't interfere with you and your father from what you have posted."

You certainly did not understand the post. When my dad married my SM, the fact that my mom tried to prevent me from having a relationship with my step mom most certainly affected my relationship with my dad. Whether that was her intention or not (and I don't think it was), when my dad married my step mom, it changed everything. It was no longer just my dad, his wife became his partner and he expected her to be treated with respect in their home. There was no way for me to visit my dad & Step mom without my mom getting upset. She wouldn't have minded if I just visited my dad, but my dad was not going to make his wife leave so I could visit. I didn't have a problem with his wife either. My problem was dealing with the way my mom made me feel after I went there for a visit. If my mom hadn't made me feel bad about enjoying my visits that included my step mom, I might have visited my dad more.

I don't know why he was not involved iamommy but you said you weren't visiting him that much, it is not involved IMO. I did not say what was the reason, maybe because you wanted to be with friends, or mom gave you hard time, or because of her drinking, or not wanting to leave her alone etc I don't know why he was not that much in your life. It is possible it was not his fault.

I still don't buy that you weren't spending time with dad because mom did not like SM. I just don't buy it. My feelings toward SM are irrelevant to how much time my X spends with DD, he makes sure it is happening, nothing to do with what i want or feel. It is not related to one another. It is an excuse.

iamommy, the fact that she stopped drinking does not mean she completely recovered. alcoholics who do not drink are still alcoholics, just not drinking ones, with all the troubles of mental issues.

iamommy you asked this question:
"Talking badly about SM doesn't directly prevent dads from being involved with their children. Where does it say that? "

here you provide an answer in the same paragrpaph:
"If my mom hadn't made me feel bad about enjoying my visits that included my step mom, I might have visited my dad more."

so it did prevent you from spending enough time with dad. spending time with children=involvement. little time-little involvement.

ima,

If your mother had not cheated or drank, she wouldn't have become an ex-wife period, "bitter" or otherwise.

I don't understand why it is somehow all your mother's fault. No one can "make" you feel guilty unless you allow them to. Maybe the problem was really that you were, let us say, insufficiently assertive. If my teenagers wanted to visit their father and I didn't want them to for some reason, I wouldn't be able to stop them. If they disagree with my position on anything at all, they let me know - in great detail.

Sorry Ima if I offend you or your mom...... not my intentions.

But isn't it wonderful you weren't a drunk TOS so you could empower your children to be free thinkers and to never use your bitterness as an excuse not to visit their dad.... because as we all have heard you say enough frigging times your children do not visit their dad except for one and of course it has nothing to do with how you poisoned them ... and of course it has nothing to do with dad of the year its all their horrible cheating SM.....

Get off your high horse and get into the real world.

no offense taken pseudo...

They don't get it and don't want to. It's easier to justify a mom doing those things by blaming the alcohol. She doesn't drink anymore, and yes she will ALWAYS be an alcoholic. There is no CURE. But, she is still bitter, resentful, and an unhappy person. It wasn't the alcohol that made her that way. It was probably regret that she didn't do everything she could to save her marriage or keep it from failing. It doesn't matter what it was. It's been over 25 years since they were divorced and she has never opened her eyes and realized that her anger at my dad (or herself for cheating/drinking/etc.) that caused her to speak badly about my dad to me or speak badly about my stepmom has hurt me. She has never apologized because she is too involved in her own pain or misery to see that it hurt her kids, even when we tell her.

The fact that some people refuse to acknowledge that a mom could be so blinded by her own feelings that her children suffer from it... well, maybe that's because they relate too much.

I find it interesting that theotherside said to me:

"I don't understand why it is somehow all your mother's fault."

Well, who does she want to blame? Me. The child? or my dad? the guy that she cheated on, who was working to pay for two households while he probably wished we were all still a family. I'm sure he was a bit depressed over it too. The reason I find that odd is that she defends my mom, the cheater and blames the father that was cheated on or the child for not being assertive enough. It only goes to show that no matter what, she will defend the BM.

"If your mother had not cheated or drank, she wouldn't have become an ex-wife period, "bitter" or otherwise."

Really? What makes you so sure? Don't you think there were problems in the marriage before she drank or cheated? Couldn't those (drinking/cheating) be the way she coped with the other problems in the marriage, instead of dealing with them? And maybe she didn't think my dad would leave her because of it? Maybe she thought she'd work through her problems and he's wait it out. After all, he did stick around for a couple of bad years before he had enough. When he left, I'm sure she kicked herself. But, I also think she thought he'd come back. When he didn't, she lashed out in anger. She was bitter and found ways to blame him. She blamed him for the financial problems that led to her drinking. She blamed him for all the problems that were created by her drinking, including her affair. I can't tell you how many times she told me that if my dad had done this or that... she wouldn't have HAD to find someone else. And when my dad remarried, she went off the deep end. She would tell me how he doesn't really love her. She would tell me how she was just using him. I heard over and over how if he really loved me, he would blah blah blah. I've heard it all. She is still in denial that he could really love her. She hangs onto the idea that he may still take her back. It is truly sad. Perhaps if she had been able to deal with the problems without cheating or drinking, they might have stayed married. Maybe they had problems I've never known about, so I can't say they would still be married. You certainly can't say it with any certainty

Would admitting that it wasn't the affair that caused the divorce of my parents mean that perhaps it could also be that your ex husband's cheating might have been HIS way of coping with the problems in the marriage? Interesting....

it is of course your mother's fault that she was not there when she needed to be with you helping you to make right choices. and her drinking and cheating is also her fault. but your relationship with you father or lack of it could not possibly be her fault. this is nothing to do with her. if I would not be seeing my kids, it would be my fault. if their father would not see them, it would be his fault. i know it is incovenient because then people have no excuses anymore, but that's what it is. why blaming the other person?

Of course there are no guarantees - if your mother had not cheated, for all I know your father could have dealt with the stress of his financial setbacks by cheating also. You have to admit though that if you want to preserve your marriage, cheating and drinking are not the way to go.

She is responsible for her cheating and drinking. You and your father are responsible for your relationship.

In my exH's case, his current wife and he share responsibility for the state of his relationship with the kids - she because she refuses to allow them to visit, and he because he doesn't tell her to go jump in a lake. The younger kids have done everything possible to maintain the relationship, though they gave up on begging him to allow them to visit several years ago.

IMA, I get it.....The first year DH and I were married, DH and I took SS to breakfast on Mothers Day(his visitation was every Sunday)DH told son, Today is Mothers Day..Spend the day with your mom, do something nice for her..Cutting short his own too valued visit time.....Answer to that, month later, Fathers Day....X drove 9 hours to dump kid in a remote cabin with an X boyfriend, with no access to a phone so he couldnt even call to wish his much loved dad Happy Fathers Day.....Checkmate mom ....I thought what she was trying to do was rather transparent......

Dotz.... of course she didn't have any ill intentions afterall it was "her visitation day" and she could do whatever she wanted with "her child" .... its just to bad it was on father's day .... 51 other sundays to drop the kid off in the middle of nowhere but fathers day was the only available day to do it.

Yes, my relationship with my dad is not my mom's responsibility, it's my dad's and mine. And while my dad was very busy working to support my mom's house (because she didn't work) and his own, we didn't see each other much while I was in high school. There were many reasons, but one of the deciding factors for me was the way my mom made me feel about it when I did visit. I was stuck in the middle because my mom told me how abandoned she felt when I left. I knew dad was working a lot and although he would have made time (he always did when I wanted to see him), it was just easier for ME to not visit much. I guess he could have insisted but then again, if he had done that, then I would have had to listen to my mom b*tch about being alone or upset if I had a good time and she wasn't included.

FD & TOS, you make good points for a mother's perspective, but this is my perspective from being the child that lived it. When you live it and you know what it's like to feel you have to pick one parent over the other, then you might understand.

I grew up and moved far away from my mom. Yes, I wasn't assertive enough. That makes a good victim for some crimes that I was a victim of. I know that now. I've learned how to deal with my assertiveness over the years. I also moved closer to my dad and see him almost daily. He and I have a close relationship and it took me learning to 'ignore' my mom and her comments. I don't call her very often and when she calls me, I can take better control of how the conversations go. When she makes her comments that upset me, I find a reason to go. I am not 15 anymore and I don't have to listen to it. I don't feel obligated to be her 'friend' anymore and be there for 'her' problems that she should have gotten over decades ago. It's even more sad that my kids don't have much of a relationship with her either. If I were her, I think I would be miserable and lonely. If nothing else, she shows me what I don't want my life to be like and that has helped me become a better mom and step mom to my family. Of course, I credit my dad and step mom for showing me what a good marriage is and what it means to have commitment and devotion. My mom had turned me off from the idea of ever getting married as a teen. It may have had something to do with me not caring if I were married when I had my kids. It wasn't until I got closer to my dad as a young adult, that I saw marriage could be good because I saw my dad & step mom's. He continues to show me what it means by caring for his wife while my mom's response when I told her I was getting married, "are you sure you want to do that?"... when I showed her my engagement ring, she pointed out that her ring she bought herself was bigger. She is very insecure, jealous and self centered.

Oh yeah.. my mom also claims that she'll never marry again because my dad will always be her husband, she doesn't believe in divorce...(but apparently adultery was okay)

creepy.

I am sorry you have to deal with such self-centered parent, no question it effected you for life. I am sorry you feel this way about your mother who is supposed to be the closests person. She sounds like she might be having mental illness. Unfortunatelly there are a lot of pretty bad parents out there and kids have to deal with it their whole life. I think though that at some point as adults we have to move on and accept that that's who our parents are, maybe not good at all, but that is nothing we can do about it.

Finedreams, I agree that at some point, as adults the children do see things for what they are and if they can move on and accept the parents for who they are and that is what I did. I chose to not have a close relationship with my mom because of the behaviors she chose. Regardless of whether she has mental illness or she's just too wrapped up in her own life or pain to see or care how it affects her children, isn't my concern anymore. She's had 25 years to get counseling, or whatever help there might be. Several of us have offered to pay for whatever help she needs. She refused. She therefore chooses to do these things and doesn't care who it hurts.

I'm not here to debate why she does what she does. I'm not here to blame her and vent out my anger at her, I'm well past that and have accepted who she is and that she will probably never change. The reason I share these things, is there are some parents out there, that are currently saying to their children, things my mother said to me. There are currently some parents that have the same bitter and angry attitude that my mom has. There are parents that 'justify' the things they do or say to their children, that place the children in the middle or make them choose, that think they are doing what's in their child's best interests. They think the child has a right to hear bad things about the other parent if they are true. And I'm saying that just because a child doesn't stand up and tell you that what you are saying to them or the things you are doing to them or just because they go along with you, it doesn't mean they are not being torn apart inside and hurting from the things being done. They will grow up and in time, they will decide who they are going to have a closer relationship with. They may choose the parent that poison's them against the other parent. They may choose the other parent. It all depends on the child. But, I'm just telling parents that have minor children now, that what you do today, may come back to bite you in the ass in ten or twenty years. Because children should NEVER have to choose. They should never have to decide and if they do choose one over the other, then it is going to be the child that loses. My mom put me in a position to choose and she has never let up. If she had never made me feel I have to choose, I'd probably have a good relationship with both of my parents. Now, I'm the one that doesn't have a good relationship with my mom. My kids don't have a good relationship with their grandmother.

Those of you that are putting your kids in the middle or having them choose, it doesn't matter to me if you think they have the right to know the real reason for the divorce, even if it makes their dad look bad because the deserve to know the 'truth'. or if they 'decided on their own' to not see their dad or you want to blame TOW, SM,GF or anyone else. I don't care. You don't have to convince anyone of anything, least of all me. Who care's??? I certainly don't. I feel for the children that go through it because I know how hard it was for me. The end result will reveal the truth anyways. The children that are living in your situation today and will someday grow up and decide if you did the right thing or if they blame you for it, that will be the 'truth'. (and two children from the same situation may draw different conclusions, like I said, it's really up to each child,individually.)

This is just a forum of a bunch of strangers. None of us will likely be here (talking on a forum) when your kids are grown and in their 30's. You will have to live with the end result or your actions of what you do today. You can deny or justify all you want now, but you will live with the results for the rest of your life.

All I am giving is my perspective as a child of divorce. My mom was bitter and angry about being divorced. She has never gotten over it and while she has tried to poison her children's relationships to our dad, it has backfired and poisoned our relationship with her. That's just my story. I'm not saying all children of divorce feel the same way. Every kid is different. But, don't kid yourself if you think your kid is going to feel what you want them to feel. You can't control that.

My story is not unique. I don't know if I'd say it is 'common', but it certainly is not uncommon for the wife to become bitter when the husband divorces her. I don't even think it's uncommon for a wife to become bitter, even when she divorces him. If she thought he would beg her to come back and he doesn't, but moves on and marries someone else, she might resent that too. I'm sure guys get bitter too, I had a lot of first dates with that type. No second dates. But, since this forum is mostly women, I relate it more to women than men.

I have heard from someone (actually relationship counselor) that it is convenient to not get over a break up or marriage. If you get over, you are expected to behave in a decent manner but if you are perpetually mourning, nobody can ask much of you because "poor you" are still grieving. So not getting over is a great excuse for behaving like a moron and not moving forward. Sounds like your mom used her divorce as an excuse.

I think most children are far more independently minded than ima apparently was - certainly my children are. They feel very free to disagree with me about anything.

And how on earth could you prevent a teenager, or the younger siblings in a family with teens, from knowing that their parent had an affair even if you wanted to? You really think they would believe that Dad or Mom coincidentally met their new GF/BF within a week or two of moving out? And how would a parent explain it when the cheating parent moves directly from home into the home of the OW/OM? You expect the teens/preteens not to notice when a parent is gone for mysterious lengths of time while having an affair? Many of the signs of cheating are just as obvious to the kids as they are to the spouse.

My kids have told me many times what they want from their parents - and right up at the top of the list is honesty.

yeah, you cannot hide an affair especially if spouse moves out straight to TOW's or TOMs' house. My X did not directly told his son about the cause of leaving mom but when within a week after moving out, little boy realized that dad lives wiht TOW. When he realized why dad left he was devastated. It did not take him long to know why. he was only 8. TOS is right, you can hide truth from toddlers, but anyone older would figure it out.

I agree about independent thinking. I couldn't possibly brainwash DD about anything.

you call it brainwashing, I call it parental alienation and for many children it is a real thing.. and parents do it without even meaning too sometimes.

I've watched a happy, lovely boy become withdrawn and sullen. Friends he used to love to be with are now "snobs", "think they're better than us" (comments has mom makes and now coming out of his mouth too), sports he used to play are "stupid" "insignificant" (that's another one of her favorites that we hear a lot of these days)

When a parent does not like, approve, is critical of, creates a drama around another person or situation the kids pick up on those ques and may feel they are expected to hold the same opinion to please parent. There is an interesting line from the movie stopmom with Julia Roberts where the young son says "Mommy, I'll hate her if you want me to."

My grandparents were divorced and of the three children only one had a relationship with Dad (my mom). Grandmother did not have a kind word to say about him, made his life difficult, etc eventually he remarried and it got to the point where grandfather said- you're teenagers if you want to see me you know where I am..my mother went but the others didn't. When he died my aunt was sorry, she said she never wanted to love him because she didn't want to hurt her mother.

I agree newgarden that things like that happen, if you tell young kids things long enough they will believe it. i think parents are capable to brainwash the kids. I guess it could happen if you start early enough. If I would do such things to DD when she was little, she would end up not wanting to know her father. i was mainly thinking of older kids, teenagers.