The woman could be the man's mother, not just his wife.

I always look at John and Abigail Adams as a great example of that statement. She was his sounding board, confidant and kept him even keeled (well, as even keeled as he could be). If they were born 200 years later they would have been a modern day power couple.

I think that my dh and I were both motivated before we met eachother. After we each had children and went through a failed relationship we put ourselves through college. We met after we had both graduated college and were in our careers. I think that is part of what attracted us to eachother, was our motivation and goals.

I do think many couples motivate eachother. Some motivate eachother to do great things, some motivate eachother to do bad things. I know many people who stood by and supported and motivated their spouse to further their education or make career moves. I think that there are many times a great woman behind a great man and vise versa.

I am not sure if I could be with someone who was a political figure or a wealthy businessman thought. Such a high instance of cheating seems to go on in those types of situations, sometimes it seems like the woman are just there so the man looks wholesome (when in all reality the men are anything but!)

I think this phrase pertains to old times when men had careers and "lives" and women were merely standing behind them and supporting etc. Those times are hopefully over. And frankly I do not want to be with a man who needs my push.

I think it is true but maybe not in the sense that it originally meant ie: in the way the finedreams pointed out...but I do think it still applies in the sense that it is difficult for any person to overcome all of the obstacles one would have to overcome to become "great" in any sense of the word. So, for someone to achieve "greatness" you have to have someone there for you in the worst times and/or moments to encourage support and be there... not bring down put down ... make terrible decisions that hurt you along the way...in other words someone equally as great.

I don't recall where these stats came from because I encountered them a few years back... I only recall it was somewhere reliable (like Statistics Canada or PISA)...

But anyhow, married men make more money and reach higher heights in their careers than unmarried men, even once fatherhood is taken out of the equation...
However, married childless women make less money and don't get as far along in their careers as their unmarried childless female counterparts. Mothers, on the other hand, make more money and have better jobs if they are married than single.

You can argue chicken and egg here, that the "successful" married men are married because they are successful... Or that they are successful because they are married... But the disagreements between the patterns is interesting however you look at it.

Typically, in our patriarchal and heteronormative society, wives do more housework and "life chores" than their husbands. (Now before you get all excited and say "Well MY hubby does all of ____, and most of ____, and all of ____ around the house, yadda yadda", let's acknowledge that this is the trend, and that your DH may be an exception)

So, that means that after a full day of work, most married women come home to make dinner, clean up dinner, tidy the house, pay the bills, make next week's grocery list, feed the dog, sort the laundry, etc. Most married men come home after a full day of work and "help" with all of those chores. If there are kids involved, it's typically the same pattern, women care for the children, with help from men.
So women wind up working a "double day" and as a result are more tired and less focused at their jobs. Women may not have the hours to devote to overtime or extra projects that their equally educated, equally qualified male counterpart has, so may not be eligible for promotions.
We don't bat an eyelash at someone who says "My husband works a tonne of overtime and so isn't at home much to help with the housework", but someone who says the same about their wife is seen as somehow hard-done-by, and like he is being cheated out of his own chance to relax at home and excel at work.

So, quite often, women get stuck in the "pink collar ghetto", or are working only part-time, or are not pushing for a promotion that will require less flexibility, because their family obligations, as a woman in a patriarchal and heteronormative society, require a large portion of their physical and emotional energy.

So when you look at it that way, there really is a great woman behind every great man. I don't mean in the supportive relationship way, I mean that some fabulous woman got stuck in the traps involved in being a woman and wound up in second place to a man, who may be equally fabulous. And that's unfair and it sucks.

(I love my books about gender issues)

ceph- My experience, in a nutshell.

My goodness, is it really 2008?

An old roommate worked for the World Bank while she lived with me. One day she came home all infuriated over (if I remember correctly) an article in the Economist about how the earning power of women decreases substantially with motherhood; the earlier and more children a woman has, the lower her salary in later years, regardless of education, socio-economic status, marital status, etc. (this particular study I think was on Brits). It was a huge difference. The same was not true for men.

Then she started thinking about the people she worked with. The World Bank obviously is an international organization so intentionally employs people from all over the world. She could not think of one married woman in her department... they were all single or divorced. (obviously i'm taking her word here, i don't know all the women who worked there). Different for the men, many of them were married and many of them brought their wives with them-- wives who could not work here of course since they had no status for getting work visas. No matter what education or career they had in their home country.

Yes there are men in the world who are willing to pick up and move for a wife's career, or are willing to be a SAHD, or who are willing to take on the majority of sacrifice in taking time off from work to care for sick kids or whatever. They're still a lot fewer and farther between than women who are willing to do the same. It's a LOT easier for a man to find a wife willing to give her career the backseat for her family than for a woman to find a husband willing to do the same. I know men who like to make a big deal about the fact that (at least in the US) the wage discrepancy between men and women is largely due to the women's "choices" to take time off from work or work part time or flex time to take care of kids, not due to overt discrimination in the workplace. Yes, this is true, but while on an individual level it may be a "choice", we make the best choices we can given the options available to us--and those options are not equal for all. We are still playing under different (societal) rules.

Maddog - yes, it's really 2008... And I am 26, am in grad school, identify as feminist, am very self-confident, but I struggle with this crap too.
For me, with awareness of these issues, one of my biggest problems is difficulty resolving my desire to have a heterosexual romantic relationship, with my loathe of being boxed in by the patriarchal structures imposed upon me.
For example, logically, I don't think that it's my job to do all the housework and life chores. My BF also doesn't think it's my job. He's great, gender-issue aware, pulls his weight with chores (maybe not a full 50%, but he does plenty, at minimum he does whatever I ask of him)... But the trouble is that I feel like I should be doing it all, whether it's my job or not. Believe it or not, I actually feel guilty about asking my BF to help with dinner, or do the dishes, or stop at the store to pick something up. I feel like he "has something he'd rather be doing", so I'm interrupting that if I ask him to do a chore, regardless of that I also have something I'd rather be doing!
I often think it would be so much easier to be ignorant and not understand that there's no reason for me to do all the work... Or to be gay, so that I might not feel so pressured by the traditional gender roles, because I'm already living outside them... But unfortunately I'm aware, and straight, and it drives me bonkers!

If you are in grad school Ceph, I'm surprised that you are pressured by traditional gender rules. I'm older than you with grandchildren, wonderful husband and a professional career but I don't see any reason why the chores can't be split. I don't feel guilty asking my husband to help with stuff. However if he's busy doing some remodeling work around the house I am happy to make lunch for him and the workman. I suppose that's traditional gender roles but its practical. If he needs me to go out to the hardware store because they need more widget wedges or something, give me a sample and I will go. I think thats the new equality or whatever you want to call it. I pick up the drycleaning, because its on the way to the grocery store. My husband is fond of saying that we both help each other professionally and personally.
If you had a business of your own would it be helpful if your wife was a lawyer or a CPA? You bet. If you were a lawyer and your husband was a computer whiz would that be helpful? Oh yes. Thats the new idea of great man or woman behind the great man or woman. Altho if you are a politician and your wife is just terribly rich I suppose thats as good as Abigal Adams encouraging her husband--they didn't have to worry about paying for campaign advertising.

BF cooks, I don't cook, almost never. I do the laundry. And so forth, we do what we do better. It is probably 50/50. And most of the hosuehold chores we do together: grocery shop together, clean together, garden together etc. So hard to divide it equally. I never thought I had to do it all. My grandfathers cooked. My dad does a lot around the house, gardening etc. Doesn't cook, he is a bad cook. My brother does a lot around the house.

I don't feel guilty. None of the women in our family feel guilty. I don't think (concsiosly or subconcsiouly) I should do it all.

I know nothing about traditional gender role. What is traditional gender role? they cannot have babies and cannot nurse, so I did that traditionally lol What else is a gender role? I don't know...I put make up on when i go out but BF doesn't. that's traditional. lol We both do our nails, he does not put nail polish though. Traditionally, he doesn't do it...Oh boy. lol

DD does not cook and overall is not that good with household chores. She does not care enough. Not tradtional I guess haha

Marge, I agree its about people helping each other.

Ceph, I know how you feel on this one. Maybe it has something to do with growing up watching a mom successfully juggle career, cooking, cleaning and parenting and do it so well! Or maybe you're just a person who is used to doing everything and hates asking for help...in any case, I also know in my logical mind that I shouldn't be doing everything around the house (after all, there are 2 capable adults who live here!). But being anything less than a domestic goddess can be tough for a lot of women. =-)

Marge, I don't think you quite understand my position on this. Grad school does NOT mean you are now exempt from societal pressure. If anything, it makes it worse. First, I've spent the last decade thinking about thinking. Critical thinking is a great skill, but it's a big fat pain in the butt, because you can't accept anything at face value. This means that I analyze every expectation, task, structure, you name it, that I encounter. I love my education, but sometimes it makes me pine for ignorance. Second, as a female scientist, I'm way outside the traditional jobs for women. So, my education and work are "masculine" which actually adds to the pressure to be "feminine" in other aspects of my life.

I come from a family of farmers, with moms that stayed home (only working if there was a war or they needed the money) and did most, if not all, of the housework. My own mom was like Norcal's and seemed to seamlessly manage everything on her plate. Rationally, I know that it wasn't seamless, and things fell by the wayside from time to time for her too, but it seems like it was. No one in my family (apart from mom's dad) went to university. My family takes tech courses to learn a new skill. My family likes to marry their first longterm SO, and have some babies. My family likes to watch sitcoms. So, since I'm more educated than any man in the family, have different interests, and have chosen a different path than most of my family, this puts me in a funny spot.

Being on my own quite young has also given me quite an "I can do it myself" chip on my shoulder as well. So if I choose to lean on someone else to help with life, then I feel that I'm not properly taking care of myself, or them. And since "nurturing" or "caring" are prized traits for women in our society, thereby I am not being a very good woman.

Some of the problems are inherent in our society (ie - other people's unwillingness to accept my choice to be a female scientist) and some are problems with my own perceptions (ie - that I feel like I should be taking care of everyone, and feel badly if I can't or decide not to)

So congratulations to anyone who has perfectly resolved all issues related to gender. I haven't.

ceph, i understand

(then again, i'm an engineer...)

i don't have exactly the same issues as you, but gender issues nonetheless. like being told by a coworker "the reason you get along so well with the operators is because you're a girl and they like it when girls come out in the plant" (by younger engineer who i'd been trying to pound into his head ya gotta develop a good relationship with the operators and mechanics or you'll never know what's really going on out in the plant) aaarrgghh...

Ceph -

I feel ya. The first paragraph of your last post was soooooooo on point. I've been to grad school where I, too, was trained to think. Sometimes I wish I could take things at face value. I'm working on it (I'm actually trying to read on it - lol).

When my DD was 4-5, I had my girlfriend over and we were talking about how hard it is to find a decent men because so many men just want somebody traditional to cook and clean for them.

DD played in her room, didn't hear us.

then she came up to me, she saw something on TV in her room and asked what that meant (something about science I guess) so I started to explain to her and then my girlfriend jokingly said: "go on, go on, teach her, haven't you learn anything about gender roles? want her to be smart and have all the problems that educated women have? don't want her to have easy life? " LOL It is funny I still remember it.

On completely different note. It is strange and different to observe DD in a relationship, to see a couple with no "traditional gender role" and no assigned rules, who cooks and who cleans, who is asking who out, and who calls who. Different than what we used to.

Ceph, I thinking you are over thinking your gender issues .....The first person that came to mind when I heard the word scientist was Marie Curie...Peoples perceptions of your masculine occupation? Maybe projection on your part...And I wonder what your family would think of your description of not being as educated as you, and enjoying sitcoms... I would take that as a slight... Being more educated than any man(not woman)in your family... Why that comparison?. ......My DH is in a trade type position, and he does brilliant work that I couldnt fanthom accomplishing, even tho I may be more educated...I worked in a ''masculine ''occupation also......The lines for me were never blurred solely on my career choice.........I totally agree with Marge.. new equal rights...With a little maturity, you d realize thats theres no keeping score, who does more in a relationship, its my pleasure to do things for DH...And if I dont want to theres no pressure to do it at all...Yes, its 2008

No Dotz, I have been asked (and I quote) "Why would you choose a guy's job?" I get asked this all the time. Maybe it's because I'm small and "girly"? Who the h377 knows what goes on in other people's heads.
My family has said "Yeah, but Ceph likes those dorky shows, the ones that are school on TV." This was NOT said as a joke, it was said as a slight. So yeah, I have little interest in what they like.
Every large family function, I have family members asking me if I feel weird about that I've out-educated every man in the family and if I think "that it will cause problems if you marry a man you have more school than and make more money than?"

Who said anything about keeping score? Maybe that was a projection on your part? I mentioned that BF does his fair share, although probably not a full 50%. I have never sat down and drawn a chart though, so no score is kept here.
Also, did you even read the part where I said that everything gets overthought for me? It's part of who I am and what I do.

Like I said before, congratulations to any of you who have fully resolved all issues related to gender. I haven't, and probably never will. You can't just TELL someone to not have gender issues, and with a little maturity, you'd realize that.

I took exception to the title of this thread --
about the good woman being behind every good man.
It should be beside every good man.
But darn it - it just isn't!
Behind is the word that fits.

And IME, it's KIDS that make it happen.
Pre-children, my mother was an MIT-educated nuclear physicist doing top-secret government research.
Post-children, she was an MIT-educated diaper-brigade misfit putting dinner on the table every night at 6:00.
As a teen, she rebelled for years only to hear over and over again how she was taking away a top-notch education from some man who could use it to support a family.
And in the end, that is what happened.
But she raised all of her daughters to get similar educations and to fully expect to support themselves financially. To NOT be housewives unless that was what we chose.

And it worked for me.
I graduated at the top of my ivy league class and enjoyed a very successful and lucrative career.
Fast-tracking. Until I had KIDS!
Don't get me wrong - I love my kids. But it's virtually impossible for a woman to stay on the career 'fast track' when her time has constraints.
Now I work from home. I enjoy what I do, and it's still lucrative.
Lucrative enough in fact to be able to support a husband who earns a lot less than I do, and has less education. But he is also the kindest, most considerate man I've ever met, and he is my biggest cheerleader. Because I earned enough to support a family, I was able to choose a man for other qualities without sacrificing my children's needs. (A little insight I gained from a former neighbor who is a psychiatrist married to a surgeon. She said that as long as the man wasn't threatened by a woman's success, that marriages where she was a professional and he was blue-collar tended to work surprisingly well, and that has been my experience for the past 15 years.)
He probably contributes about 50% to the household, though his share is more house and yard and mine is more kids and kitchen.

And happily - we stand beside each other.
But I don't think that's the norm...

Sweeby, You have the scenario absolutely correct....Ceph, I wouldnt just TELL you not to have gender issues, when you grow up, you ll just figure it out on your own, no one will have to tell you.....And NO feminist would describe herself as little and girly to defend her position, by the by......

"Grad school does NOT mean you are now exempt from societal pressure. If anything, it makes it worse."

Maybe -- My sister is a PhD atmospheric physicist whose career plan since age 20 was "To get a PhD so I can do interesting work part-time while I raise my kids. Then work full-time." Honestly. That was her plan, and it's precisely what she is doing. She went full-time last year when her youngest started high school.

Career-driven strident-feminist younger-edition me thought "Is she nuts!? To get a PhD just so she can work part-time!?" And yet her life has gone marvelously well. She's done interesting work, raised two great kids and nurtured a strong and fulfilling marriage and is financially secure. Her husband recently changed careers to one that doesn't pay nearly as well, but offers much less pressure and more emotional rewards (teaching jr. high - he's very nurturing). She has not set the world afire with her work, but is a respected expert in her particular field, travels, publishes, and still loves what she does. Does real life really get much better than that?

Ceph - You don't have to prove anything to anybody. You chose a 'masculine' profession because you're smart. And clearly you're very feminine or you wouldn't be analyzing it to death! (just kidding! sort of...)

No, "Life's not fair" (cue Jeremy Irons in 'Lion King')... But it's better now than it ever has been, and you have more choices than ever. You don't HAVE to give up your career to get and stay happily married. You probably WILL have to make career sacrifices to raise healthy and well-adjusted children, but that's another CHOICE that you can make - one way or the other.

Sweeby, Sounds like your sister figured it out...Balance, with out, like you say beating it to death...When I was walking a yard of inmates(male)with a shotgun, I never worried if anyone thought it was a feminine profession....Didnt care...Earned a living, and put on the red lipstick when I got home LOL

I don't get some of the stuff discussed here. i think all these gender issues that cephs is talking about might be exaggerated. I am in my 40s and yet I don't know what you are talking about. my mom is in her 60s and doesn't have gender issues.

what's a guy job? my mom is an engineer (everyone in my
family is in technology and industry) and she belongs to a different generation obviously. and yet nobody ever asked why does she have a guy job.

i also don't get this: family watching sitcom shows as a sign of some lack of education or sophistication. I have graduate degree and two undegrad. degrees but i do watch stupid shows to relax. what is that to do with education? i also watch nerdy stuff after I am done watching stupid shows lol. i mean who cares who watches what. my BF has graduate engineering degree and holds very high position in a company but he watches spaghetti westerns and reads those cheap pulpfiction thrillers. haha

nowadays it is impossible to get decent job with no degree so what's the big deal having an education? woman or man, what difference does it make? pretty soon there will be no jobs left unless you have a degree. what's the big deal we went to school? (besides paying back student loans lol).

i agree with sweeby: stand besides. or even stand by myself. i will never stand behind anyone. and hopefully nobody will ask me.

I don't understand all this gender talk. and i never felt societal pressure, pressure to do what? maybe it is cultural, i don't know, i am just clueless.

Ceph.... My DD23 is a mechanical engineer the last 2 years she has been full-time in her profession and part-time in school ... When you were saying gender roles I was thinking of her ... she was the only girl in her graduating class, she was also 1 of 5 females in the state of mass to earn a scholarship for "Women in Science and Technology" degree program. She is 1 of 2 females in her departement. She earns about the same as my hubby and when she gets her degree at the end of may she will be earning more than hubby.

She worked long and hard in school and now at her job... I cannot imagine her becoming a mom nevermind a stepmom anytime soon(atleast I hope not I am too "young" to be a grandma)... you are only 3 years older than her (scares me) and the post from the 20 yr old last week or so about becoming a SM... Taking on being a SM at any age is difficult enough but I don't think I could have done it when I was younger sometimes I question myself now :).

So kudos to you and any other young SM or STBSM out there...mothering children who are not yours even though you have not had your own kids ... think of it like boot camp ...on how "not to raise a kid".

As we speak, I'm finishing up a paper that partially involves addressing "postfeminism" and the desire to "have it all" (defined, loosely, as romance + career + kids). The "postfeminist" stance would be that every woman not only CAN but SHOULD have it all (or else you are not 'complete' or 'super' enough as a woman). The staunch "Second Wave" feminist stance would be that this perception on the part of "postfeminists" is naive because they are wrong to think that all gender inequality is magically "over"; thus even striving to have it all is dumb and doomed. As for me, I consider myself a "Third Wave" feminist, so my personal view is kind of in the middle: Yes, it's very hard to "have it all", (especially if you don't have a lot of money) and that is in large part because of societal structures and differing gender expectations*; but we should keep trying, if "it all" is what we want, because we shouldn't have to choose when men don't have to choose. I think there are ways that society could be changed ---as well as individual personal decisions--- that could help us all (men and women) achieve and experience all that we want in this short life. But it takes cooperation.

*Just finished reading an article by Maureen Dowd where she rightly points out the following GENERALIZED trends:

-Most women, as they advance in their careers (and in their age), proportionately find their prospects for marriage and children going down. Married or not, busy professional or not, most women are expected to handle most of the "homemaking". As a result, most women find their lifestyle becoming more complicated, it being extremely difficult to juggle all three spheres (let alone friends, fashion and great hair!)

-For men, the pattern is reversed: as they advance in their careers (and age is generally irrelevant), they find their prospects of marriage and children going UP. Especially if they are "busy professionals", they are not generally expected to take on too much of the "homemaking". As a result, their overall lifestyle improves. (And they don't spend much time worrying about fashion and great hair.)

All that said... my boyfriend is a dream insofar as doing the majority of the cooking and cleaning while I have been working full-time and finishing my degree (and he works full-time, too). If the situation was reversed, I'd pick up more of the cooking & cleaning; in any event, the ideal is when both partners pull equal weight in all areas (but sometimes this has to be temporarily shuffled around).

Not ready for kids yet, though! :)

Thanks Serenity!
Most of my W&GS lit is packed up right now... *sigh* (but I have a new book on characterizations of women on the Canadian prairies in the late 1800s that I'm pretty pumped to read - it will be my reward after I finish my book on aquatic photosynthesis)...

Something that I think we all have noticed in this thread is that we've all had different experiences with gender roles. And Serenity points out a few of the different "waves" of feminism. So, I'd like to point out that there is no right or wrong way to do feminism. So a woman who had chosen to be a SAHM is no less a feminist than a women who is trailblazing to have the HPV vaccine covered under health insurance. A heterosexual woman who loves shoes and makeup is no less a feminist than a crunchygranola hippie lesbian.

(So, Dotz, when I describe myself as little and "girly", it's because I'm 5'4" and ATM ~105 lbs -I AM little. This is undisputable and I would be obviously be lying if I described myself as large- and I appear "girly" because I wear makeup and heels and have feminine mannerisms... So, my best guess is that because I appear stereotypically feminine, people expect that I should be stereotypically feminine and get their hackles up when they discover I am not. But like I said, who the h377 knows what goes on in other people's heads)

Neat Ceph trivia (that will mean nothing to most of you, because you're mostly American) - Nellie McClung was my first cousin three times removed (Grandma's mother's cousin).

how about lesbian who loves shoes and makeup and crunchygranola hippie heterosexual woman? hahaha

sounds like my sister in law ... :-)

LOL - FD, you're a hoot. Nope, neither is automatically any more or less a feminist than the other! If they identify as feminist, and choose their paths based on what they want and what is best for them, NOT based on what gender roles they are expected to fulfill, they can BOTH be! As bell hooks says, Feminism is for Everybody!

Nobody --men included-- can really "have it all"--- men can have high-powered, time-consuming careers *and* a family, but they can't have high-powered, time-consuming careers and have the same kind of hands-on day-to-day parenting interaction with their kids that dads with more time on their hands can have. It's just that for those who want to make the high-powered career *and* family, in general it's easier for a man to find a wife who can and will do a wonderful job mothering and homemaking while he's off career-ladder-climbing-- it's one choice that's easier for a man to make than a woman. Men don't HAVE to make career sacrifices to (let their wives) raise healthy happy children-- or at least tend to be able to make lesser career sacrifices. Conversely, it is probably a lot easier for a woman to make the choice sweeby's sister made, than for a man to make the same choice. Although that's changing with time also, as it becomes more accepted and even expected for men to take more time away from their jobs to spend with their families.

No, "Life's not fair" (cue Jeremy Irons in 'Lion King')... But it's better now than it ever has been, and you have more choices than ever. Absolutely true.

kind of about gender roles

my sister-in-law never worked (sometimes stayed home with kids and sometimes just stayed at home, she didn't always had young kids), she started working this year first time in her life (she will be 44).

now she tell me and my mom how she understands why we used to tell her we could not do XShe finally realized. it is humbling experience for her.

because after she comes home she still has to do housework and she even does not have intellectually demanding job and yet can hardly stand on her feet. she used to talk about hard work of stay at home moms. Now she says oh my it is not even comparable to working AND running the house. well duhhh

i meant to say we used to tell her we could not do X,Y,Z because we were tired after work.

my computer acts out, cuts parts of the post

Nobody --men included-- can really "have it all"--- men can have high-powered, time-consuming careers *and* a family, but they can't have high-powered, time-consuming careers and have the same kind of hands-on day-to-day parenting interaction with their kids that dads with more time on their hands can have. It's just that for those who want to make the high-powered career *and* family, in general it's easier for a man to find a wife who can and will do a wonderful job mothering and homemaking while he's off career-ladder-climbing--

Well said Quirk -
And many of those high-powered career men feel that they are great fathers simply because they have 'provided' their children with a great stay-at-home mom.