Hi and welcome! This forum is the best and you'll find the people extremely helpful. That said, it would help to know the scale of your drawings. Is each square equivalent to 6"?

I like corner wall ovens but I believe they typically work better in larger kitchens. Do you plan on a single wall oven, double, or single with microwave? That will impact plan input. What are the dimensions of the beam in the middle of the room? And lastly, are you open to an island as opposed to a peninsula?

Look forward to your feedback so I can look again at your plans.
Good luck,
Elyse

Yes, sorry, meant to say, 6" per block.

Right now I'm thinking single wall oven with either a microwave above, or an OTR microwave/vent. I really would like a wall oven separate from the cooktop, plus I'm thinking of an induction cooktop, (not sure if anyone does a full induction range yet), but if it makes more sense just to have one range, then I may need to live with that. It's early days, so I'm open to anything!

And yes, an island would be okay too - I thought about not putting anything along the wall between the doors, and having an island along the length of the room, but I'm not sure how much storage I'd give up doing that, or if it would look weird, or have enough clearance.

The beams - 10" wide along the bottom wall, 12" along the middle of the room, and (my numbers aren't in front of me) I believe it's about 6-8" lower than the ceiling - so 84" under the beam, 90-92" everywhere else for ceiling height. I will verify that and post actual ceiling heights.

And just for a bit more info - this is a 1937 townhouse, concrete block construction, the doors lead into the living room, and the wall between the doors is against the closet under the stairs where the water heater is, opposite wall is our neighbor, and then the window walls are outside, no additions out. So we're stuck with the room size, no extending beyond.

Are you trying to keep the wall oven under counter height or higher? If it's higher, the first plan gives you no room to work or set things on either side of the cooktop. That wouldn't be good.

In the 2nd plan I don't think people could get into and out of 2 of your seating spots because of the laundry stack.

I'm worried about a plan that eliminates table space. Don't you ever have more than 4 for dinner? Will you ever have to worry about resale? Kitchen dining is acceptable for some, but I think it'd really limit potential buyers if the only dining was at a counter. Maybe you could get a design that makes that counter feel more table-like, or is set up so a table is incorporated.

All that said, I far prefer your 1st plan...But I'd want to get rid of the corner oven idea, shifting the range/cooktop over to where it is in the current room. You could go back to a range or maybe induction cooktop with oven under? I think you can do that if you choose the right brands that will allow it...or put the oven stack where you show the pantry. You could do a pantry next to the dishwasher, or still try a wall of pantry cabs like you show in plan 2.

OK.. I would urge you to consider a wall oven installed under the counter with an induction cooktop. That's exactly what I'm going to do. Not so much due to lack of space as it is a design choice. I prefer a seamless more contemporary look and not crazy about bulky wall cabinets. That way you also have extended counter space. I agree with rhome that you need to consider the resale impact if you completely give up possibility of table eating. Perhaps we can work out a small overhang with seating for two with stools that push under the overhang (backless) and a smaller table for two with the option of expansion in case you do have guests.
How do those thoughts sit with you?

Induction cooktops are deeper than other cooktops. You might need to shop very carefully to find an oven that would fit underneath one.

what rhome said.

We got rid of the horrible top and bottom corner lazy susans when we redid the kitchen and put our Advantium in that corner. It's our second oven; the other one is under the range top - but I would heed the advice about being careful with clearance if you are going to put an oven under a cooktop.

Anyway, we had only 27" but if we had had 30" we would have stacked our ovens there. I love having it in the corner - and there are others on this forum who have done so. Just search "corner oven" and the posts & pix are sure to come up.

See, I knew you wise people would have lots of wisdom for me - thanks for all the input, and thanks raynag for the pics of the corner oven - I actually have searched and read about them, so I know it can be done.

However, I've tried another couple layouts, this time putting the wall oven by the entrance/dishwasher, and trying to incorporate some actual table seating.

A few more notes - I don't bake a whole lot, and with two entrances to the room, I don't know as the wall oven there would be a problem, and there is counter next to it. I mainly want a wall oven so it is above counter height (and aesthetics too). The cooktop is the main cooking area for me.

Other notes - even with our current kitchen layout, it is hard to have more than 4 ppl to dinner, because of the narrow width of the room, and that is fairly common in our neighborhood (we're all in the same townhouses - again, 1930s construction, and ours is one of the largest floorplans!) so from a resale standpoint, if they're looking in this neighborhood, they're expecting small kitchen/dining spaces.

I double checked ceiling height, and I was underestimating - it's 94" everywhere but under the beams, where it is 90". I put shelves for cookbooks under the beam in the one layout because it's going to have to be something different from teh rest of the wall units on that side.

I tried a layout with an island, but I'm worried I lose too much cabinet space doing that. These are very small houses, so we need as much storage EVERYWHERE as possible.

Colors - the pale orange is bottom cabinets, gray is appliances, light yellow are wall cabinets, and the light green would be the countertop overhang on the breakfast bar. Brown is chairs and tables.

Here they are:

2 ft clearances aren't enough. You would never get the fridge door open in the 2nd plan with the island. The first plan is much better, except for the room between the peninsula and the table. The way to make a small room seem smaller is to make it so you can't walk through. I'd move the peninsula back a foot, and make sure you have enough clearance to comfortably open your fridge door. If you could manage it, a French door counter-depth fridge could really help you out.

I hope you don't intend upper cabinets in front of the window over the dishwasher?

Whoops! Thanks Rhome, I was getting slap-happy with the uppers!

Unfortunately, we just recently purchased our fridge, and aren't planning to replace it right now.

Here it is with the peninsula back a foot:

We have our ovens in the corner, but we have a large kitchen so we could spare the space. They take up 48" of wall space on each side of the corner.

Your kitchen seems to tight on space, so I'm not sure if you'd want to do the corner ovens. Indeed, I think an undercounter oven would be a nice choice.

I'm thinking that with the peninsula moved like that, you might be able to pull out the table, when necessary, and fit 4 around it...So you get the bar seating you were hoping for and still have the table. I hope others weigh in about that plan, since different people see and catch different things.

How about moving the oven to the wall with the peninsula? That way, it's not by the door. Plus, you can add uppers and lowers by the DW for dish storage very conveniently located to unload the DW.

Thanks for that measurement, and the pictures alku05... I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that I don't have enough space for the corner oven - which means I have to decide which is the least frustrating corner solution. We already have the D-shaped lazy susans in that corner and I hate them with a passion. The only corner solution I've found so far that I like (in theory, haven't seen them in the flesh) is set of corner drawers that fit the corner, but have only found one cabinet company that makes them - Hertiage Custom Cabinetry, and I'm guessing they're out of my price range!

Hmmm... what to do about the wall oven. Okay, so here is my thinking on this, and you all can tell me where I'm being crazy/too picky/whatever.

1 - I would like to have the oven at waist/counter height to eliminate some bending over when working there.
2 - I like the idea of having the oven away from the cooktop, so if I am baking and cooking, I'm not in front of the oven.
3 - I really like the idea of drawers with my pots/utensils/spices, right under the cooktop where I can easily get them.
4 - I don't want a range - as Elyse said, I like the cleaner look of the built-in oven.

Rachelle - were you thinking of the oven under the counter on the peninsula wall? I had forgotten I wanted dish storage by the DW, so thanks for reminding me of that. Presumably though, with a single oven at counter height, I could have dish storage below the oven at least, right?

I'm going to try marking out the peninsula on the floor and see how it feels and works with our current table. I'll let you know how it works!

D-shaped lazy susans: do you mean you have a blind corner unit? As opposed to the traditional corner super susan? If so, you'll find the super susan to be a big improvement. The other options that some people like is just a corner unit with shelves. It's really nice to store bigger things like small appliances.

As for drawer units, they are cool, but they do waste a lot of the space, and since you mentioned trying to maximize storage...

Rachelle g, why do you think drawer units waste a lot of space? I find them more efficient than anything I've ever had as far as space for storage and way easier to use than pullouts or shelves. I agree, though, that a D-shaped corner is not anything compared to a good lazy susan cabinet, which can be quite spacious and useful...and in this plan there is room for the good kind.

I think the wall the backs up to the living room and is attached/adjacent to the peninsula looks like a great place for dish storage...Close to the dining area and just a turn from the dishwasher to put things away.

Rhome--Drawers eat up space because the wooden sides of the drawer box require space plus the space requirement of the drawer slides. Adds up on Euro style cabs but it really takes a big bite on face frame cabs because the drawers & slides have to clear the FF. On a run of drawer stacks, a surprising amount of what could have been shelf space is lost.

I do agree that face frames waste space...In fact, I haven't had them for so long, I don't even think of that. Not arguing here, but just explaining my view: I think the efficiency of (full-extension) drawers beats the possible couple inches of gain by having shelves, and there is no gain by having pullouts over drawers (on frameless)...maybe even some loss with pullouts because of having to clear the doors. I don't miss crawling around on the floor to try to reach into back corners of shelves, but I'd rather have those than pullouts, which some people like, but I hate. If I had a small kitchen, I'd want the best, most efficient usable space...and that isn't always measurable purely in inches. :-)

Yeah, I'm with Rhome on the drawers - we're planning on frameless, and I want as many drawers as we can fit... I'm a big fan!

My SIL has the super susans, and I'm not a big fan of those either. But I agree they are better than the blind corner type.

I saw a corner trash unit today that might be a possibility for that space - 4 bins on a spinner... but I think if all else fails, I'll go for shelf space. That's what I'd probably do by the peninsula too - use it for appliances and big stuff I don't use much.

Thanks everyone for all this terrific feedback!! SO helpful!

I meant that corner drawer units waste space. The drawers are still rectangular, which means that you lose a triangular space on either side. Otherwise, I agree with rhome and others, drawers really don't waste that much space, and their efficient storage often makes up for the space lost on their frames and slides.

As for the peninsula, one other option is to have the opening on the other side of the peninsula, that way you don't need any corner unit there. It depends on what you want to use it for, and how much of an overhang you want will also affects access.

On the peninsula corner - why not reverse cabinet or drawers? (opening under the counter) While you wouldn't want to put the highly used items there - sounds like you could make good use of it.

About that corner...have you thought about doing a corner sink? If you hate corner cabinet options, that may be a good choice for you.

jagmuse,
Look at raynag's corner setup. She has drawers and an oven set up on the corner at countertop height. Now I think it's an Advantium which is not as deep as a wall oven but if you're considering two ovens, that might work. I plan on installing an Advantium (hopefully at counterheight like that) as the main oven for the two of us. I'll install a wall oven under the counter but not under the induction cooktop for when I entertain. The good thing about an oven like the Advantium is that it is also a microwave so you don't need an additional setup for that. It's big enough to work as a main oven for two people. Sorry if I"m inadvertantly spending more of your money!!

The counter space along the wall adjacent to the peninsula doesn't look like it will get much use while prepping/cooking so why not put the wall oven on the end in a tall cabinet. This will provide wonderful storage above the oven for trays/roasting tins/platters and tall pots as well as a few nice size drawers underneath. It leaves you with an 18" landing space, and I really don't think it will cramp your breakfast bar at all. You could place your coffee maker next to the oven and pour your second cup without having to get up (my idea of heaven). I wouldn't worry about having the tall cabinet next to the doorway. I have my fridge in the same spot and it's doesn't feel too narrow

You mentioned storing dishes under the oven; I wouldn't sacrifice counter height dish storage for a counter height oven. You'll be bending way over to get dishes many more times a day than you'll be bending over to get into the oven.

I'm not sure why you don't like your SIL's super susan, I love mine but I can promise you that you will hate shelves even more. The recycling station isn't a bad idea, but in such a samll kitchen, I think it may take up too much valuable space (unless it went in the peninsula corner) I think you'd be better off leaving the corner unused. You could make the pantry 6" smaller, then shift the fridge down. You now have space for two good sized drawer banks on either side of your cooktop and a big bank of drawers next to the sink. Or if you don't like the idea of a smaller panty, put a pull out cabinet (great for holding spices, oils etc) between the cooktop and corner. Just remember, if you do go with adjacent drawer banks instead of a corner cabinet, you have to have 2" fillers on each side of the corner to give the drawers room to clear the knobs/pulls of the adjacent cabinet.

Keep in mind that only one or two 30" induction cooktops will fit in a 30" cabinet (same goes for 36" cooktops in 36" cabinets) and those models just barely fit. You may need to go with a larger cabinet or notch out the sides of a 30" one (not sure how practical that would be with a cooktop though I know it's easily done for a sink). There are some very useful discussions in the appliance forum on how to achieve the minimum necessary clearance under the cooktop too.

You guys are great - so much good stuff to think about! We went out to look at appliances this weekend, so I have more to think about. I also realized the the laundry pair is going to stick out beyond the standard 24", because of the size and the stuff behind them, so that's going to squish table space. I'm going to play around with some taped out layouts and see how it feels, given all these factors. I'll let you know how it turns out!

One thing that seeing stuff in the flesh did confirm is that a wall oven under a cooktop is REALLY low, so I do want to avoid that. Although if I were to get an Advantium and a wall oven instead of a microwave and wall oven, maybe that would be less of an issue, as the Advantium would be the main oven for us, as remodelfla said.

So many variables, I can see how this process can make you crazy!! And obsessed!

Thanks everyone!

Sorry, I didn't notice last time that the wall oven was at the end of the sink wall run. I like it much better there than what I proposed. I don't think having it in the doorway will present as much of a problem as some think. I have a second oven (which I use most of the time) right at my back door, so when it's open you can't come in, but it has never been a problem. It's not ideal, but when you're trying to get everything you want into a small space you have to break some design rules.

Regarding your washer and dryer: I know that most of the European brands make models that fit into cabinet runs and are only 24' deep. Unfortunately, they also tend to be more expensive. If your budget can tolerate it, you may want to check them out.

You may also be able to find a smaller drop leaf table. We have a counter height table that's only 30' wide but you can seat two people across from each other quite comfortably. There's an interesting one shown in the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: narrow drop leaf table