Surely you must have heard the highly publicized stories of suicidal moms taking their kids with them, tossing them off bridges, smothering them, shooting them.

If these were my children they WOULD NOT be going to visit anyone with the history you have just described unless it were supervised visitation.

She has already shot herself in the chest once and survived. So she decides to do it again the one night a week she has the kids, only this time she takes them out first - I would not be willing to take that chance

OR what if she tries to commit suicide with the girls there and succeeds. I can not think of anything more damaging to them than walking into a room and finding their bm dead!

I think the point was reached about two suicide attempts ago. Sorry to be blunt Doodle, but daddy needs to open his eyes. If even mom's BF sees it the point has come and gone.

Thanks and I know. Sadly though we all know that step parents have no rights and even though I have expressed my concerns with him he seems to think it would "hurt" the girls more to not see their mother.

I have voiced many many MANY times that if they were my children and the ex was in the same condition as Biomom my children would NOT be spending time unsupervised with him. He always says its their mama and they love her which sadly they do. I have said all the same things you said: Moms drowning their children, throwing them off bridges, drowning them in tubs. I know all the terrible stories as well. He always says "She wouldnt hurt them" my reply is always if shes crazy enough to do herself in.....is it worth the risk?!

I think he would have horrible guilt over cutting of mama but seriously this woman scares me. I would never forgive myself if I sat back and let something happen to them. I am two seconds from calling state on her. I feel like I'm the only non-guilt ridden party who can look after the kids best interest. I am going to talk to him again and I would also like to let him see your reply's so he can see it is not just me who thinks the red flags are up and waving.

And you are right about the first attempt being enough Martha. I have said to him many times how could you get someone pregnant when they have the red flags waving across their chest? The woman is horribly scared for weeping out loud. NOT MOTHER MATERIAL. Proof sometimes guys dont think with the right head.

This is unfortunately a subject that I know everything and nothing about at the same time. My daughter's father committed suicide two days before her second birthday while she was in his care. The backround of what happened is this... I got a phone call that he wasnt going to be able to pick up DD because he was sick in the hospital. I was told it was an issue with what at the time sounded like pneumonia. He was in the hospital for about a week before he got out. His mom called me and asked me if it was okay if she and him came and picked up dd. She said he still wasnt feeling well but he wasnt contagious and she thought it would cheer him up to have dd around. Later that weekend he drove to a bridge and jumped off. He left his phone and wallet in the car and simply jumped... it took a week to find the body. I didnt even fully find out what was going on until my mother called me (I was at work) and told me that father's mom had called and asked her to pick up dd because something had happened with father. My mom called me to tell me she heard a lot of commotion in the backround and police and that she was on her way to pick up dd and heard on the radio someone just jumped off the bridge. I called grandma and demanded to know what was going on and she confirmed that it was him and then revealed to me that he was never sick he had tried to slit his wrists and she thought just maybe seeing his daughter would remind him that he had so much to live for. I was sooo angry. I felt bad for being angry but I was livid. I should have been told the truth I blamed him for what amounted in my head to him walking away from his daughter and I blamed myself for not sensing something wasnt right and saying no. I really wish I had been told the truth I would have gone over there with dd if nothing else for the same reason why grandma thought she should be there but I would have been with my daughter and then I would have taken her home with me. I certainly would never have left her in his care. I will NEVER understand how he could possibly get up in the morning look at that perfect little girl that adored him and still think there was nothing worth living for.

Although she was so young, a fact that comforted me before, I still think that she somewhat vaguely remembers what happened that day. A while ago there was something going that had a lot of police around (I really cant remember what) but she freaked out and started crying and didnt want to go two feet away from me.... I am not really certain what happened but she couldnt really tell my why she was upset ... she just said it made her feel bad. It could have been nothing but the point is it can be everything...

I wouldn't take the chance in any way shape or form I have lived it and it is the worst feeling I can imagine... It honestly made me feel like I let her down in a huge way and I have had a hard time forgiving him for putting any badness into her innocent life so early in life. I dont think dad is realizing all of the emotions and regret that can come from letting your children be in the middle of something like that. I dont think that mom should be cut off in any way shape or form but I definately think the visits should be supervised. I feel for her.. I am sure she would desperately love to just be okay but the fact is that she is not and it is sooo... not worth it to me to risk the innosence of the children to not hurt her feelings....

But, like I said while I know everything about how I felt and how difficult it was to deal with that I have no idea what the exact right answer is to deal with things like this long term... I would ask dad to think about that... what will happen to the girls if they are there and witness it... it is bad enough that they will someday have to know what happened and (my own biggest fear) blame themselves in some way ... but to actually witness can hurt them forever on top of all the guilt dad would inevitably have himself for ever allowing his girls to be put in that position.

" I am two seconds from calling state on her."

I'm going to start counting -- One... Two...

Now do it -- Doodle, you need to take some pro-active steps to assure that nothing terrible happens when those little girls are with BioMom. Don't ask to have her visitation eliminated or even curtailed -- ask to have it supervised. Ask the *court* to order supervision and to designate the person who will supervise. It could be BF or BioMom's mother, or someone from the state if need be -- but it needs to be someone.

Joining Sweeby - three . . . four . . .

I agree that all contract with her doesn't have to be cut off as long as she is *rational* when her kids are there. There is no doubt though that the contact should be supervised. I would recommend at least some of them be with a neutral 3rd party in the event that she does try for custody down the road . . . a non-family member who can attest to her actions/behavior might be beneficial. Perhaps this would relieve some of the guilt their dad is feeling? It's isn't cutting mom out of their lives, but making sure they and mom are safe.

Mom-of-4, I'm so sorry you and your daughter had to go through that. How traumatic and unnecessary. ((Hugs))

So...nobody is going to believe said this. Dad got a call at work from BioMom tonight. She said N (the boyfriend) had snapped tore the house apart and tried to choke her to death. The cops were there...he needed to comme get the girls. When he got to her apartment there were three cops still hanging out and the apartment was destroyed. Dad said he was the only sober one there. Both N and BioMom N
seemed to be under the influence of, you guessed it, pills.
N was totally out of line for attacking her but believe me when I say there is alot more to the story than BioMom is giving. She is crazy, controlling, a button pusher and has attacked my husband more than once. N is pretty mellow guy. I was shocked. I've never even seen him raise his voice.

Worst of all, the girls were up and witnessed EVERYTHING so when they got home I got to here how "N was chocking mama". I think a lightbulb finally went off in daddy's head. He said he is going to talk to a lawyer this week about cutting off visitation untill she enrolls in a rehab program. She needs to check into a mental health clinic and not just for three days either. She NEEDS to commit herself. She NEEDS help. I don't think she will ever be normal but in order to be seeing the girls and keeping them over night she is going to HAVE to at least get stable.
I am a tad torked at daddy right now as well. It's 5:15 in the morning and I can't sleep. I'm looking at it like he allowed this to happen. He has made so many excuses for her because she's their mother and he keeps hoping, for the girls sake, that she'll get better. I think he's in denial that the situation is as bad as it is.

I told him tonight when he dropped the girls back off with me that I would lose all respect for him as a parent if he alloweed these kids to be put back over in that volatile situation. She may of been arrested. I am sure there were drugs in the house and I don't think N would of been carted off to jail without pointing a few fingers himself. If she showes back up tomorrow to get them dad said he is going to talk to her and tell her that the girls will not be going over there unattended till some things get straightened out. She is going to flip. Pray for us.

Mom-of-4 I am so sorry you and your daughter went through that. How horrible. I hope your daughter has grown to understand that it was nothing she had done and there was nothing she could of done to prevent it. She has a mother that loves her....

Also, I need thoughts and prayers to get through this. I seem to have this real grudge against hubby right now that I can't shake. I don't want to hold this over his head but I am livid. The situation is complicated enough without me brow beating him over it. All the times I have told him it was not a suitable environment, it was volatile,the kids were were going to end up seeing something that they shouldn't have to, they all keep replaying in my brain.

I want to be supportive but right now I am finding it really hard to be. It is terrible to have kids that you love but have no say so in their wellfare. It's like watching a trainwreck happen right in front of your face and of course you can do nothing to stop it. I feel like he has allowed me to feel powerless and guilty and I am feeling pretty bitter towards him right now. I wonder if I was a bio parent, would people make excuses for me? Would my feelings be more recognized? Would my opinions count? Would everyone always give me the benefit of the the doubt because I am a mother and surely you can't be ALL bad if youre a mother? I guess I just couldn't possibly understand since "I don't have kids" right?

"N was totally out of line for attacking her but believe me when I say there is alot more to the story than BioMom is giving. She is crazy, controlling, a button pusher and has attacked my husband more than once. N is pretty mellow guy. I was shocked. I've never even seen him raise his voice."

Attempted murder is way more than just being "totally out of line." It appears from this paragraph that you are making excuses for the BF. There was discussion of suicidal mothers killing their children (actually most of the cases I have seen of that have involved postpartum psychosis), but how many times have you read of the father, and even far more often the BF/stepfather, killing the children in a sudden rage. In so many of these cases, the guy was described as laid back, a well-liked coach, etc.

doodle, i agree with TOS, don't make excuses for N any more than for BM... previous warning signs, mellow guy or not, provocation or not, attempted murder (and in front of the kids!) is not something to take lightly. I actually knew someone who committed murder-suicide, killed his ex-wife and himself, this was the brother of a very close friend I'd known him for years hung out together, babysat his kids attended family holidays, etc. Never saw him lose his temper, never would have guessed; doesn't make him or his wife any less dead.

I'm so sorry you and your family have to deal with this.

I'm skeptical about the boyfriend's motives for telling your husband about her mental state;
he might have been covering his own hiney in case "something happened".

A few years back, a man told a neighbor that his girlfriend kept her daughter in a closet.

The neighbor called the police, & they found the child, naked & starved (she weighed 25 pounds at the age of 8), in a closet full of her own feces & urine.

The boyfriend later admitted that he had sexually assaulted & abused her & that he had told the neighbor because he was afraid the girl would die *& he'd be blamed*.

Notice he didn't tell the authorities?
Had the neighbor not believed him or not told them, the girl would have died, & the boyfriend would have considered himself blameles; after all, he had "tried".

If this boyfriend was concerned about the girls' mother's mental state, why did he not seek help for her instead of talking to her ex?

I don't understand your husband's attitude either;
does he not love the little girls?
does he want the free time that he has when they're with their mother?
does he *want* to put them in danger?

I've always wondered about Andrea Yates's story (the woman who drowned her 5 children)-
did Rusty Yates deny his wife the psychotropic drugs she desperately needed so that 'something bad' would happen & he would have 1) exerted the maximum control over her, destroying her life & 2) freed himself from both his wife & all those children?

If so, he got away with it:

I read a headline the other day, couldn't stomach reading the entire article, that he's "a father again".

Here is a link that might be useful: The Girl in the Closet

I personally couldnt care less who is or was more at fault on this occasion. There is no way my children would be left in her care by themselves for even a moment. This situation is absolutely to dangerous... And, I probably would have told DH the same thing as you except I probably would have flipped my lid and said a few more choice things for not reading the writing on the wall so to speak and taking steps to protect his children at all costs.

#1-for all you who believe I am defending N, you couldn't be more wrong. I simply mean to say there is more than just that incident going on there. There was no doubt drugs were involved and mom was under the influence. I would not be surprised if she attacked N first and sent him over the edge. She has lashed out and slaped and punched my husband more than once. She is NOT by no means the innocent party here. I blame them both equally. TOS, don't even start because this woman is BEYOND disgusting. No one could possibly know the entire situation and I could be here all day telling you but it's neither here nor there. She is unfit and the company she keep is equally dispicable.

Also dad has finally been in contact with a lawyer and she is fixing to be seeing her kids under supervision only. I think they both may have went to jail last night since we have heard not a peep from her today. I'm pretty sure the WHOLE story came out and they both got hauled off on drug charges.

Dad is finally fed up. He's had enough. Thank god. I refuse to send these girls over there any more. I have told dad I love you but either you are going to do whats right for these children or I am going to walk because I can't sit back and watch powerless any longer. Here's hoping everything works out and this is moms wake up call. At least the girls will be safe now. So sad you have to protect children from their own mother.

Sylvia for the link and also momof4,quirk ,sweeby and martha for the advice. Again TOS, I don't want you to think I think it was at all exceptable what N did. I want to ring his neck right now as well. I am more angry at mom however, since she IS the mother and should have some flipping judgement.

I am pissed at her for the same reasons I'm pissed at dad except she allows shady people over there while her kids are visiting and pops pills and fights with her boyfriend with them present. Dad has been turning a blind eye to it. I am irritated in general with all the so called "adults" involved. And I use "adults" lightly.

There WILL be some changes though. Everyone keep fingers crossed it works out for the best.

Thanks Again!

sounds like those girls now have the advocate they need so desperately!

Yay, doodleboo!

I wish you the best, & I'm sending you & the girls my best thoughts for protection, safety, security, & peaceful life.

Good for you Doodle --
Those girls are lucky to have you.

"I would not be surprised if she attacked N first and sent him over the edge."

It is quite likely that both of them belong in jail, and obviously neither was acting in a rational manner. However, this particular statement really bothers me. Although I suppose it is possible that this is not the case in this particular instance, generally speaking men have more upper body strength than women. If she punched/slapped her BF, he had several options that did not include trying to choke her to death. He could have left, called 911, or restrained her in a less dangerous manner.

When my children were younger, occasionally an older one would hit a younger one with the excuse that the younger one hit first. Although it was usually true that the younger one had hit first, I always told the older children that that did not give them license to hit the younger one back. The older child should leave, come and get me, or if absolutely necessary restrain the younger child with the minimum amount of force necessary to prevent him or her from injuring anyone, including him or herself.

theotherside,

I don't think it's about who provoked who or who hit who first. Neither are being excused. but the fact is THE MOTHER HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT HER CHILDREN. Even if the mother is being abused by the boyfriend, if she knows that she is with an abusive man and he may hit her in front of her kids, SHE IS RESPONSIBLE TO KEEP HER CHILDREN OUT OF THAT SITUATION, even if it means not seeing her kids while she's with the abuser.

Guess who showed up to get the girls at 2:00 today? Guess who DID NOT let the girls leave with her!

We think she spent the night in the clinker but wasn't telling us since she showed up so late. He said only what she needed to know:
"They arn't leaving with you under the present circumstances. We'll see you in court."

She didn't argue because she knows we KNOW. I honestly believe if I were to ask her straight up "Are you a fit mother?" she would answer No. I don't think there is going to be much of a fight. Dad is going to see what he can do about supervised visits and possibly forcing her to "check in" if she wants visitation rights. Till then they will not be going any where with her.

The girls took it well and daddy is going to talk to them tonight about all that has happened. He is also going to explain to them that mommy is sick and needs time to "get better" before they can go back over there. We'll leave it at that. I think that's all they'll understand anyway.

I'll keep everyone posted on any progress.

ima,

doodleboo apparently had no idea the BF was abusive. Is there anything in her posts that led you to believe that he was habitually abusive? I got the impression that doodleboo thought this behavior change was sudden.

It was a sudden change but then again mom and boyfriend and from what I can gather, everyone else she hangs with, seems to have addictions of some sort. They are not predictable as a whole.
She never would of gotten into this situation to start with if she was more choosey about who she associates with thus forcing her children to be around them as well. This is why dad had to step in and put a stop to visitation.

Mom has an extreme lack of good judgement and for awhile there so did daddy by allowing the girls to go with her. He is changing that now. The important thing is the situation is being rectified and the girls will be safe now. I don't care about mom or boyfriend or who is more wrong or who should not of hit whom or whether or not N was previously abusive. In the words of Rett Butler "Frankly my dear...I don't give a damn."

TOS,
I think Ima meant that the BM has the responsibility to keep them away from abusive people, not that Doodle was being irresponsible. And even if this behavior seemed out of character, there are going to be a few red flags that should make you think "yikes, this guy's anger could easily escalate". People don't generally go from calm, cool and collected to choking their GF without a few thrown remote controls or shouting outbursts to give you a heads-up.
If it TRULY was out-of-the-blue, then Ima's point is moot, but I'd bet it wasn't out-of-the-blue and BM should have known better, even if she is a suicidal drug-addict.

Ceph,

Actually, people do sometimes go from calm, cool, and collected to murdering their family members. There have been several murders in the surrounding towns in the last decade or so in which that is exactly what happened. No one, even people who lived with the perpetrators, had any clue that the person was homicidal.

And conversely, if every guy who ever had a "shouting outburst" was assumed to be on the verge of being physically abusive and not safe around children or women, there wouldn't be very many potential husbands or fathers left.

I didn't think Ima meant that doodle was being irresponsible. I was disputing the assumption that the mother necessarily had any reason to think the BF was abusive.

This one I can say 'been there, done that' on as BM's abusive BF is a main reason DH got custody. I can say from experience that they don't always seem 'the type' at first. We actually liked the guy in the beginning. Fast forward a year to when we learned that the police had been over and SD had spent the night at a hotel because BF attacked BM. This was the night before we picked up SD for a eleven day summer visit. BM filed a restraining order against him and swore he was gone. DH asked BM if SD could stay up with us for a couple weeks so she could sort things out (and SD would for sure be safe) and BM said no . . . because SHE NEEDED SD'S STRENGTH?!? We're talking about a 4 year old. The thought wasn't on her daughter's well-being, but her own. We tried to get court allowance to keep her and failed. A week later the BF was back . . . and 4 months later the police were back and another restraining order filed. Two weeks after BF was back in the house. This time the courts realized BM could not put her daughter's well-being before her own wants and gave DH emergency custody. BM still did not kick BF out. It wasn't until she met a new man online that she finally gave him the boot.

There are some parents who just can't see beyond their own nose to what is best for their kids. I don't think who started the fight is as important as who opened the door to the opportunity. Bottom line - a parent's job is to keep their kids safe. You can't do that drunk or pilled up - that just opens the door.

Hello all.

Just wanted to let you guys know that daddy has an appointment with a divorce lawyer who specializes in custody cases at 9 am tomorrow.

He is going to see if we can get temporary full untill a hearing can be assigned for the safety of the girls and then they will go from there. Daddy wants full legal custody. He wants Biomom to have a case worker who sits in on the visits when she has them. We would like to have it set up so the custody could be re-evaluated every six months that way if Biomom gets her act together, she can go back to having them overnight without a watch dog. Dad wants to keep legal custody if possible so if she ever slips....he can call the dogs back in.

This may be the nicest thing anyone has ever done for biomom. It may wind up helping her out in the long run. Heres hoping.

Doodle, you don't want custody re-evaluated, you want visitation re-evaluated. DH wants to keep full custody . . . trust me.
Good luck - so glad he's stepping up and getting this done. Keep us posted.

When I first saw this question on Saturday ... my reply was

When dad says its too much.

i dated a guy awhile back who immidiatelly got full legal custody of his son because mom's BF beat the kid up once. I don't remember all the details but it was done in extremelly quick time frame. It was enough just one time physical abuse for mom to lose custody. And it wasn't even her beating up a kid but her BF.

good. That is nice to hear especially since we just found out that one of the reasons BM bf lost his custody case is because the pysch eval. (that he wanted trying to prove bm in his case was crazy) came back saying he is highly jealous controlling and has tendacies towards child abuse.. Lovely to hear.

We went thru something similar. DH and I have been together 7 years, married 6. When we first started dating BM tried to manipulate me any way she could. She apparently didn't realize that I knew that she and DH had been divorced for 6 years at that point. I tried to remain cordial with her even though some of the things I saw and heard from SD made my skin crawl. I saw bruises on SD and she ALWAYS had an excuse. DH and BM had joint custody, with BM having physical custody and DH having liberal vistitation. She controlled EVERYTHING......she even denied him to right to see his daughter on multiple occaisions.

Now, when I started dating DH BM had just moved back into the area after being mentally committed for the 2nd time (suicide threat again). DH had gotten emergency custody from the court and BM's hubby had gotten custody of their children. DH was single and did not believe that he could give SD what she needed so when BM came back crying that she had changed, blah, blah, blah he believed her and let SD go back (I think due to the fact that he trusted BM's hubby to keep her straight).

We watched BM spiral down the hole yet again over the next 3 years. DH kept saying "don't do anything yet - it's just a matter of time". Even when SD was missing school to take care of her siblings because BM was out partying all night DH said not to do anything. We both knew something big was about to happen - we KNOW her cycles. He wanted to make sure that when something happened, it would make the court stand up and take notice.

Finally, 3 years later we got a phone call from BM's hubby. He was kicking her out and wanted us to know so we didn't bring SD back there (we had her for summer vacation and it was the day we were supposed to take her back to BM). I was on one phone, DH was on the other phone and DH told BM's DH that he was done playing games and he was going to court the next day. We get a phone call later in the day from BM's DH saying they just had her committed because she "threatened suicide" again and that she could be released in a few hours according to the cops (depending on what happened at the hospital). I immediately called my mom, had her drive 50 miles 1 way and pick up SD, just in case BM decided to pay us a visit. BM had no clue where my parents live and I knew she would be safe because my father would be home with her and would never let BM near SD. We called DH's mom and step-dad and had them come over so we could figure out what to do. We decided to go to court and the next day we went to my parents and picked up SD. We explained that BM was sick and that SD was going to live with us for a while. Well, 1st mistake was not telling SD the truth because she found out from one of her friends about 2 days later and HATED us. She was 12, we were trying to do what was right.

About 4 weeks later BM was awarded supervised visitation and DH and I were appointed the "supervisors" by the court. Oh boy was that fun - NOT! The first thing BM did was walk in to McDonalds and take SD outside. So we went back to court. BM was ordered to attend visitation at the mall in the food court. Again, we were named supervisors. Every Saturday we got to go to the mall and spend 3 hours sitting in the food court waiting for BM, who was supposed to be sitting in the food court with SD but would take her to stores in the mall to hide out from us so she could mentally body-slam SD. I think she brought SD's siblings 3 times in 3 months so she could see them. DH just kept saying "let her do it, she's just hurting herself".

Finally the trial started. It was UGLY. I have never seen anything like it in my life. The judge ordered that BM could now have unsupervised visitation based on a letter from BM's dr. Stipulations were a specific pickup place and times, not to leave the county and phone contact with DH while SD was there. Of course, when it was time for DH to call SD, he was told "she wasn't there" or "she was busy".

We waited 4 months for the court's decision. Finally, Father's Day weekend it came. DH was awarded full custody. Then it was back to court again for the visitation agreement. The judge stated in the custody order that DH was too "rigid" with BM so we made the agreement liberal, but specific. She played games with that as well. We just kept getting the proof we needed. 3 months later I got a phone call at work saying BM was in her front yard with a .22 threatening to shoot a "friend" of hers. I called DH and let him know. He went to court and filed to have supervised visitation reinstated. A week later she went to DH's work and told him a fabricated story about being raped (she had no clue that the day before her neighbors had called me at work yet again and told me that 3 of her "friends" were at her house beating her up in the front yard). By the end of the week DSS was knocking on her door, they had been tipped off by someone.

4 days later she left the state with her 2 youngest in tow. 3 weeks after that BM's DH left the state to meet her with their 2 oldest. Again, back to court for a new visitation agreement.

She's done nothing but play games with the new agreement. Booking SD's flights without the court ordered accompanied minor fee paid (we won't put SD on the plane), moving and not keeping us apprised of her address and phone number (she gave us the address of the post office as her address and got mad when we refused to let SD visit without her ACTUAL address), not calling when she is ordered (calling when she knows SD won't be home).

SD is now 15. Last summer SD went for her "28 day" visit. DH let her go 2 days early so she could go to a concert she wanted to see. DH got a phone call from SD about 13 days into her visit telling him she was in an airport (she didn't know where) and he needed to pick her up at a certain time. He picked her up and asked why she was home already. She said she told BM she wanted to come home and BM sent her home. No phone call to DH or anything, just put her on a plane (no unaccompanied minor airfare again) and shipped her home. Later it came out that Bm had been smoking pot constantly around SD, gave SD a joint and a 6 pack for her 15th birthday and SD wanted to come home. We also found out that BM had taken SD and 2 of her friends to get tattooed. 14 yo girls and she got them tattooed!

DH went back to court. BM didn't show. Visitation is SUSPENDED! BM claims she never received the notice of the hearing, she has split from her DH and has 3 of the kids with her - god knows where. She calls SD constantly and is currently working on trying to get info on us to go back to court to get visitation back. She doesn't want to come back here because she thinks we will have her arrested for child endangerment, which we will. She's trying to buy SD off and keeps using her siblings to make her feel bad. The woman is just evil and won't give up.

"When I first saw this question on Saturday ... my reply was
When dad says its too much."

but that doesn't always work;
dad may not realize, may not *want* to realize, that it's too much until the cops call to tell him...bad news.

Really, if OP thinks the children are in danger, she should call CPS.

(In Texas, failing to notify CPS of an abusive or dangerous situation is a crime itself.)

& I'm astounded at the "wait & give her time & rope" attitude of the father in the last post.

He could have lost his daughter while "waiting" for the child's mother to get caught doing something dangerous or irresponsible.

I'm not too familiar with supervised visitation, but it seems like supervision means you're there, you never leave the child.

I'm thunderstruck that he allowed his daughter's mentally unstable mother to take their child out of his sight at the mall.

She could have taken the daughter out a side door & disappeared forever.

Iris-
It was the same thing with our situation. She kept saying she had changed and was going through therapy and was clean and was doing really well at her job...blah blah dblah.
We had no idea just how ruff she was untill the boyfriend spilled the beans. Then that night is when the domestic incident occured, I suspect it had something to do with the spilling of the beans.
I also believe it's going to get really nasty with this case too. It is a hard thing telling someone that they are deprived of their children. The girls will miss her too I'm sure but untill we can arrange something to insure the girlies are safe we're just gonna have to grit our teeth and do what we gotta do. Keep a finger crossed for us.

Sylvia-
Also I agree with you saying that sometimes others aside from the Bio parents need to take action. How many children have died or been abused or neglected because people wanted to "mind their own business"? I am very glad dad has taken action because I was fixing to call state. I didn't want to be the one but I was going to take action if the he didn't. I couldn't sit back and wait for the train wreck anymore.

He spoke with the lawyer. He ain't cheap but he's really good. He doesn't think we will have any problems arranging for supervised visits under all the current events.

Thanks for all the support guys!!!!

The funny thing was, we would get to the mall, meet with BM and she would say they were "going to see a movie". Ok, not much harm in that, right? The movies are loud, SD would be watching the movie and it would be harder for BM to mentally body slam her. So we would find a seat that faced the doors and wait. We found out later she would walk SD into the theater and right out the side door that exits the mall, then walk down 2 stores and come back in the mall. Once we found out it was no more movies. Then we would follow them around the mall, she would make it into a game with SD "Let's see if we can hide from them". We explained the judges rule to SD, you have to be in the food court where we can see you. BM tells her we are lying and spying on her. It became BM's sick version of cat and mouse. I had a couple friends that worked in the mall so they would keep their eyes out and call my cell when they saw SD. We talked to the judge numerous times about it and he kept telling BM that she had to abide by the rules, but she never did. She turned it into a "he's trying to control my time with my daughter". The judge would tell DH he was too rigid - DH thought he had every reason to be! DUH! Whenever we went for visitation I carried a pic of BM, a recent pic of SD, vehicle info and pics of BM's vehicles, info on all her friends that we knew of and info on BM's DH, just in case she did try to snatch her. What more could I have done?

BM has ALWAYS done things just short of us being able to arrest her. She placed harassing calls to our home. The police wouldn't do anything. She followed me. The police wouldn't do anything. It got so bad that I quit answering my phone at work, because she and her friends were calling me there and hanging up. My husband slept on our porch for 4 or 5 months because he was afraid she was going to burn our house down. She was out in our yard in the middle of the night and there was NOTHING we could do about it. I talked to a state trooper and she told me that if BM did something to SD or DH that her mental instability would get her locked up, but if she did something to me her mental instability would get her off. How's that for making someone feel good? Now, I know that the police are to blame partly - they didn't want to deal with her.

A local judge had complaints from BM's neighbors, then called my Aunt (whom she is friends with) and told her to tell me to "watch out" because BM is dangerous - this is something I am WELL aware of. The cops had a file on her, I know this because they told me. They said she does just enough NOT to get arrested. She knows how to play the game. The judge won't do anything because there is no police "record". We even had the 911 records from her attempted suicide and when she was in the front yard with the .22. The judge STILL let her have unsupervised visitation with SD. Yup, she's her BM and she's crazy but she hasn't broken the law is what we were told. Then she leaves the state and we are told we have to put SD on a plane to visit her??????? Where is the sense in that? Apparently you have to wait until a child is injured to do something in this neck of the woods.

On another note - I called DSS to see why in god's name no one ever stepped in to help the other 4 children. I was told there were no complaints. THIS WAS A LIE. I was on the phone with one neighbor, while she was standing next to another neighbor who was on the phone with DSS calling in a complaint numerous times, I even have the list of people who she talked to and there was never a complaint on record. I know of 4 complaints that were made for sure in a 8 month time frame. BM was leaving the 2 oldest (who were 8 and 6 at the time) home alone! I asked why the police had been there twice, when she tried to commit suicide and when she was standing on her lawn with a loaded weapon threatening to shoot someone, and the children were home and no one from DSS had done anything. They said the police never contacted them and they would look into it.

We pushed everywhere that we could push. BM's neighbors all talked to DSS. I even got a call from DSS, someone had given them my name and phone number a few months before I called them to find out why nothing had ever been done. The sheriff's and state troopers never compared files......no one contacted DSS..........how are you supposed to protect children when the agencies who are supposed to help you won't? How are you supposed to protect children when the judges who are hearing the cases put the children right back into the situation? You HAVE to wait until something happens and then push hard at that time to get a record of it. It's a sad way to look at it, isn't it?

Iris,

The problem I see with all of this is that it is not LE's job or anyone elses to proactively make sure that the kids are safe. They don't go door to door and demand to check on the kids. They are the last to know, the other parent has to step in immediately.

Take pictures of the bruises, document everything. Or else you will end up with a case like you and your husband went through. People are left wondering if this woman was so bad, why did Dad wait YEARS to do anything about it? Why did Dad give back custody? She must not be that bad. Why is it just now that these problems are so severe? Is it the new wife causing disruption?

I know this is not the nice answer, but that is how the process works and the questions investigator and CPS have to have the answer to before they can do anything. If not, anyone could claim anything about anybody and get their child taken. Not a very comforting thought.

DH would ask SD about the bruises and SD would tell him she fell or whatever. SD now tells us "remember when Mom hit me in the face with the remote" or phone or whatever. Of course we don't remember because we were told a different story. When SD's court appointed asked me about the bruises I told her yes, I did see bruises and gave her the dates and locations of the bruises. She asked me why I didn't call DSS and I told her "I am her Step-mother, who's going to believe me?" She agreed that it would look like I was out to make trouble.

As far as DH, he couldn't battle BM. He didn't even know about asking for a psych eval, didn't know that BM wasn't supposed to move out of the area with SD unless she went back to court. He actually believed BM when she came back crying in 2001. He thought with BM's DH that there was someone sane in the house. Unfortunately we are in a state that rarely takes the custody away from the BM's. We were fortunate to be able to prove our case in court and obtain custody of SD. The court papers even state that "BM's mental stability will always be an issue." So my question to the judge is - If you know the woman is unstable, why continue to put the child in that environment?

Everyone (police, dss, etc.) admitted after the fact that something should have been done.........then again it seems that happens in a lot of the cases where child abuse is concerned. How can we protect a child if we are forced to send the child to the other parent? How do we make the agencies listen to us? We didn't go to court with allegations, we went with proof. BM admitted to being committed 3 times!!!!!! Her own mother-in-law testified on our behalf to things she had witnessed!!!! DH wanted to make sure when he went to court for custody that he would win, because he knew if he lost that BM would make SD pay for it dearly. We did what we could, I made friends with her neighbors so SD would be watched over when she was with BM, we called when SD was at BM's, we had SD call us so we knew she was ok. I even had a teacher watching over SD's siblings at school. The school even tried to help the kids but having the bus driver not let the kids off the bus if no one was home. BM threatened a lawsuit against the school. BM has come to SD's new school and tried to take her out. The school called me immediately and I told them, absolutely not. This was the day before BM moved out of state. The school has copies of the custody agreement and the visitation agreement. Obviously we could not be with SD 24/7. We had neighbors watching our house and we had SD with a sitter (at 12 years old) because we knew BM would try to snatch her. We played by the rules and did everything we could, no one would listen. DH would go to court, BM would walk in and start crying and saying he was lying. So we waited. We collected proof. We documented everything. We learned BM's alias' and found info under those. We have a list of 6 names she uses, and subpoenaed info under all the names. It was very frustrating.

Iris,

I am not meaning to argue with you and I really don't feel like picking apart your posts.

But this stood out to me "So my question to the judge is - If you know the woman is unstable, why continue to put the child in that environment?" Because it seems to me from what you posted that Dad is okay with it. That is why.

I see people come into my office all the time ranting and raving that their ex has put the kids through years of abuse, but has not stood up until then to say this is not right -- where can I get help? It appears to me your husband did that. To say that he thought it was okay because there was one stable person in the house, well -- that is just odd and would immediately grab my attention as strange. Same as with Dad have information that SD stayed at home to take care of siblings, that can be immediately taken care of.

I know that people can only do as much as they know. And it seems to me in this case Dad didn't know his rights. Right or wrong, I'm not pointing fingers but it is another reason why your SD fell through the cracks.