Doesn't surprise me a bit!

And I've seen my own son do it. The good news is though, that I call him on it and we're able to discuss what he's doing and his underlying reasons. That keeps it in check, to a certain degree.

It also helps if BioMom and StepMom can maintain a decent relationship and each cuts the other a lot of slack. It's hard to exchange necessary parental information when the messenger always gets hammered.

It shouldn't be up to the children to maintain communication between his/her parents. If they weren't told...tell your mom this, or let your dad know that, then they wouldn't have the opportunity to control the flow of information. If the parents take the resposibility they should take to actually speak to one another, they would not allow themselves to be manipulated.

Also, parents who try to buy their children's affection are not being manipuated, they are manipulating.

My 11 yr old SS has found a new phrase he loves to throw around. I have two houses and I can pick where I want to live I hate the rules here so I am going to go live with mommy. I hate the rules, I hate this house. .. guessing mommy's house doesn't have any rules...

Having heard about your son's BioMommy, I'm guessing they'd both be in for a rude awakening! Must be tempting...

thanks ... gave me a giggle... the kids are spending the rest of the week with BM ... Ahh to be a fly on the wall ::smiles::

Yes I can see how this is true. Even kids whose parents arent divorced try to manipulate! For instance,a child asks dad for a toy.Dad says no,so 20 minutes later,child asks mom.That is clearly trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage.(also why my husband and I have the rule if one parent says no,then we must stick together on it)

Sorry, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, my SS doesn't manipulate!!!!!!

OK, read the article you referenced tamar. I liked it!! So here's my open-ended question to all.......
Obviously the strategy is "divide and conquer" and, in a perfect world, we would present a united front, right? What do you do if you cannot present a united front with the other parent?
Ideally, people would "co-parent" and work with each other. What if that is just not possible? I'm talking about people who have fundamental differences in how they live their lives, and how they parent, and who don't have communication other than pick up times, and emergencies?
Any suggestions? Helpful tips?

This study doesn't surprise me a bit....it's my life!

Raek: nowhere does it say the child is responsible for maintaining the communication between parents. Most parents know that is not recommended and so we do not put the child in the position of messenger. The fact is, the kid figures out how to play each parent -- something that all kids do, but usually fail in the absence of divorce because the parents communicate better. It is easy to sit back and say parents should communicate better, but if you haven't been in the situation where only one party wants to communicate....you wouldn't understand how it doesn't work.

To jessegirl -- I agree with your take on this. When parents have totally different parenting styles (as in our case), it becomes difficult if not impossible to stop the manipulation. My SD's biomom doesn't communicate well with us, instead she lies or manipulates facts in order to "protect" (i.e., keep loyalty) her daughter from her "mean" (i.e., rule-enforcing) father. She spends money on her to ensure her continued interest in preserving her spot as THE parent. etc. etc. This is the crux of our (stepparents) difficulties....too many parents want to "win" and not do what is genuinely in the best interest of their kids.

And parents manipulate kids in divorce for various reasons.

I understand what you are saying, but I think that putting the kids in the position of keeping the lines of communication opens yourselves as the parents up to being manipulated. What kid wouldn't "work the system" so to speak if they could? The best thing good parents can do is to keep the lines of communication open for the sake of the children and for their own sakes as well. And then nobody would be accused of "manipulation".

Yes, I also understand that it isn't always possible and sometimes there is one parent who would rather hold onto a grudge against the other rather than doing what is in their children's best interest. That's a shame. I wonder if parents can just at some point have a heart-to-heart talk about how they can be better parents to their children without putting hurt feelings in the mix. I know that it is impossible to fathom for some and it is a shame, but I think the majority of parents want to do the right thing for their children.

Talk about bringing up an old thread and not having a clue what the heck you're talking about.

"A child asks dad for a toy.Dad says no,so 20 minutes later,child asks mom.That is clearly trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage."
--sh*t, i did that when my parents were still together. that is just kids in general. "

No duh,you dont say.I was pointing out that even kids whose parents ARE together can manipulate.

We had this problem for quite a while, everything would be fine at our place, until there was a slightest 'no' then next visitation with BM we'd get a screaming phonecall about how 'mean' we are to him and how 'scared' he is of us, basically he would go to BM's and say whatever was necessary to get her riled up so she would attempt to spoil him and yell at us...

You're right though kids manipulate anyway, its just easier in divorce because of the usual hostility between the parents gives the kids a better hand.

Who's manipulating who....

Child:Dad take me to the store...
Father: for what?
Child: I want a toy.
Father: No
Child: Mommy said you have to get us anything we want
Father: and why is that?
Child: Because she pays support.
Father: your mother cannot tell me how to spend my money.
child: its her money she pays you to be our daddy.
Father: I use that money to get stuff you need not stuff you want.
Child: sobs but mommy said.

Should father call mother and ask what are you telling the kids? so she can deny it? and then call his child a liar and say your mother said she never said that to you!

or ignore it.

Been there cawfe -- 'Mom's broke so she said you have to buy me x'

We choose to ignore it.

I dont tell my DD to ask Dad, etc. But she figures if Dad can afford nice house, cars and a GF who sits at the pool all day, she can ask for stuff.

I am jealous.... I just get to sit on the private beach! Wish I had a pool too.

"child: its her money she pays you to be our daddy."

Did she actually tell them that she "pays" him to be their daddy? Have you or your husband told the children that this is not true?

Yes she does and continues you tell them that..... its just sad.

Yes we do tell them that its not true but how do you "defend yourself" against such remarks... with out having to explain the whole situation. I have to bite my tongue and walk away or become mute because I am tired of having to defend ourselves against the things she tells the children.

"mommy is really angry right now and when people get angry sometimes they say and do dumb things"

That's really sad. How old are your stepchildren again?

They are 12, 9 and 8 .... she was "ordered" back in march not to talk to them about such things.... going to court again thursday .... and he is going to tell the judge again. In march she was told to stop or her visitation rights would be decreased ... hubby thinks she is doing it on purpose so she can "blame the judge" for not being with her children.

Do the children seem to believe her when she blames the judge, etc.?

Another question for you. Ugggh, here's a disclaimer for anyone else reading this: please do not take offense, it's a genuine question asking personal thoughts from Cawfe, this is not meant to start a debate. Okay, with that out of the way (LOL!), do you think it's better for the mother to continue her relationship with the children, the way it currently is, or would it be better if she altogether dropped out of their life? Which is more detrimental to the children??? I've always held that my stepdaughters benefit from their mother's limited participation because at least they have some sort of a connection with her, however, I'm beginning to think differently now. With all the head games being played, maybe it's not the best scenario... What's your take?

Hey, as others have said kids are just plain good at manipulation in general. It's hard-coded. Studies show that even infants can work to manipulate their parents.

Anecdotally, I would figure that this becomes more highlighted in children of divorce where there are two households - probably because there is less communication with all parents and steps involved, more guilt, and more tools for the kids. Still, it takes an enabler for the kids to be successful - a weak link if you will. Great for one set of parents to show a united front, but when one or the other (or both) from another set is on a totally different page it can be all for naught.

Yes, I've heard, "If that's the way it's going to be then I'm going to go live with my father". If either my wife or I caved and begged him not to go, we'd be doomed. Also, if his BF has said "Yes, son, please come home and all will be well while we live in funland and eat pie all day." then we'd also have a problem.

Basically, with two biological parents there's only two links while in divorce/step life there can be three or four. More chance to have a weak one.

My $0.02

Yes they do believe her ... because those are the "only facts" they are given. We do not say this is what the judge actually said .... we do not confirm or deny the statements ... I said once its because you spend more days a week with daddy than you do mommy ... if you were with mommy 5 days a week daddy would have to pay her. Its the only thing I could come up with at the moment. 9 yr old said.... but we spend more time with you than either mommy or daddy ... so jokingly I said "well maybe they should both pay me".

I really don't know.... about her being gone.

They would be better off not having to hear her remarks it puts them in a tough spot. Because they want "the truth" and we don't contribute any fact or fiction to the questions. So I guess if she wasn't around they wouldn't have to deal with these issues.

If she were to disappear .... I think it would kill them not knowing "why did mommy leave us" ... its one thing to leave daddy but if she dropped out of their lives. I think there would be more questions to answer.

There are no easy answers.

They are going to court tomorrow... She picked them up yesterday afterschool (saying she wants extra time with them) but she called at 7:30 am for me to take the 9 yo ... he is sick can't go to school. I said No, unless you are willing to pick him up tomorrow at 7:30 if he can't go to school again (tomorrow is her regular day). She hung up. (six days** last year, she said he was too sick for school but she never stayed home with him she dropped him off here).

**having a good memory is a burden at times :(

Instead of using her time with them to enjoy them she uses it to give them ammunition for conflicts when they get home. So it ends up the first hour or so they are home we have to divert a bunch a questions we cannot answer.

I'll admit a lot of times I wondered,"could these bio-moms really be that bad?" It wasnt until I had my own exprience with my sister this summer,that I understand that they can.

My sister has been a horrible mom ever since her and her husband seperated.She has dropped her son off at anyone's house who would possibly take him,even people she didnt know. At times,she only saw her son one day a week! Mainly he would stay with me because I abhorred the idea of my nephew being left with total strangers.
She would argue with her ex on the phone constantly and loudly in front of their son.Hanging up and calling back.She made up lies to her son about his father.She seemed to only want child support and would talk about it to me saying she was gonna milk him for all he was worth.

She began showing up at my house at 4am on the weekends when her son was with his dad.She would be completely drunk,and crying about having a fight with her boyfriend.
Once her knuckle was swollen and her knee was banged up real bad and she said they had gotten physical.

Finally,she came over my house after midnight one night,WITH HER SON. Another fight between her and her boyfriend except this time her son heard every word and saw everything~including a smashed guitar,glasses being thrown,and punched holes in the walls.
Her son had eyes the size of half dollars.He looked totally freaked out.They both had to share my couch and the poor kid did not sleep all night long.

The next day I called his dad and told him everything that had been going on.Apparently he had no idea that she was having these violent fights with her boyfriend.He asked if I'd be willing to testify in court,since they were still going through divorce proceedings.
We went for emergency custody.The judge,who said he never grants emergency custody,granted him custody after hearing mine and my husband's testimony.Of course my sister was there and I had to answer her questions and it was VERY uncomfortable.

Anyways,my nephew,who was having so many problems is really flourishing now where he is at.It is only when he has contact with his mom (who is supposed to take him every other weekend all weekend,will only see him for one day and sometimes not at all!)that he does poorly. She fills his head with all kinds of crap.The child has had such an emotional burden to carry for his mother. She saw what she was doing to him and only ever thought of herself!

Yes,I'am ashamed to be related to my sister!

And for the record,she has no reason to be spiteful or jealous of her ex husband~SHE LEFT HIM! She Cheated on him!

So,it just goes to say that it isnt ever just one person in any situation.Sometimes the step parent,sometimes the bio mom,or bio dad,or other woman/man.But no child should have to go through this kind of emotional tug of war.

This behavior has nothing to do with her being a biological mother, and a lot to do with being an adulteress. The only reason you see this slightly less often in fathers who have left for an affair partner is that they are less likely to have custody, so they would be less likely to drop the kids off at random people's houses.

"This behavior has nothing to do with her being a biological mother, and a lot to do with being an adulteress."

Just what in the world is that supposed to mean??? Had she not cheated then what would it have to do with?

A) Had she not cheated they would still be with her husband in an intact family.

B) By cheating she has shown herself to be someone who doesn't put her family first (even if she did previous to the affair).

C) All that is important to people in an affair is the high they get, and they will sacrifice their children to be with their affair partner.

D) People who cheat are more likely to be the sort who tend to become so addicted to the high they get in a new relationship that they neglect their children, so even if the affair partner is no longer in the picture, this can happen again with new partners.

Your option A is a gross assumption, which negates B-D of your arguement. What about the mothers who leave their families just because they want out? What would the justification for the behavior these BM's be then? Can't blame it on cheating - what does it "have to do with" then?

Perhaps there are just some people out there who shouldn't be mothers?

Absolutely.Some women just never have that maternal feeling as others do. I honestly believe my sister never wanted to be weighed down by a child.I dont think it has anything to do with cheating because she didnt stay with the guy she had cheated on her husband with.He was just a stepping stone for her realize how unhappy she was.She was actually single for a year and a half before settling down with the guy she is with now.
So,what's the excuse for dumping her son off all those times when she wasnt even WITH a guy???

Does anyone have a link to the study you mentioned in your OP? I've tried googling it but can't seem to find it. I am highly interested in it since I'm dealing with a master manipulator and a dad in denial. Thanks!

If someone is married for x amount of time, yet does not leave, then has an affair and leaves, one can assume it is not merely a coincidence.

If can't be unhappy without realizing it, anymore than you can have a headache without your head hurting. If you don't feel unhappy, then you aren't.

Even if she was not "with" one particular guy, I imagine she was doing something that involved one or more of: meeting men, drinking, or drugs - all of which are related to one kind of high or another. I don't think she dropped her child off at random people's houses so she could clean the refrigerator.

It is very, very rare for mothers to desert their children when there is no other man (or occasionally woman) in the picture, and no drugs or alcohol.

The study can be found at:

www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-21808,00.html

Good luck with your biodad in denial.

laurels4u~ I dont know,I'd like to see that study myself.

Theotherside~I'm sure you are right most mothers wouldnt drop their kids unless alcohol,drugs or another man is involved.However,it does sound as though quite a few bio-moms mentioned on this forum by the stepmoms have those issues.
It also doesnt make it right.

Plastic .....welcome back :)
Did/does your sister see what she was/is doing is wrong or does she believe her own lies and Bull?

In what world is it ok to make yourself feel better by stepping on others. I am having a very hard time with this. Tired of being berated by children who are repeating their mother.

Hubby said today we were much happier when she only took them one day a week ... I said yes because it was only one day a week she could poison their minds. Now its constant.

Ok so as long as you cheated on your spouse you can infect your children with poison about the spouse?

Came to a decision today .... attitude walks in the door I will say " I do not want to hear what your mother says about me to you and I do not want you to repeat it to me ... You have no right to hurt my feelings. Because I am tired of being hurt and angry because of stuff your mother says to you."

Conversation last night .... mommy said if you didn't marry daddy we could all live together again .... we have been married for 2 years.

Court today.... continued new court date again..... Judge "warned" not to discuss anything related to the proceedings with the children. "it would not be in her best interest".

late and rambling will add more tomorrow.

Thanks for the link, tamar!