Usually kids lie to avoid having adults get mad at them, or at least to put it off, even if they know the adults will get even angrier later.

I don't understand the sneaking water in the bathroom thing. Why can't she just get water from the bathroom or wherever she wants to get it at any time? Is the water from the tap contaminated?

I would worry more about her extreme hunger than her lying. I remember your saying she tended to be overweight. Is she on a strict diet? It doesn't sound it from the description of the lunch you sent. Has she been checked for medical causes for the hunger, like parasites (not as uncommon as you might think)?

This is such a familliar story, it sounds like you are talking about me when I was her age.

The eatting is to mask feelings that she doesnt understand how to express and are so extreem for her that she can not handle them. Because you said that her mother lies to her and is not dependable, I would think this is because of her. This is very hard for her and she needs a way to express these feelings and counseling is not doing that for her. In my experience counseling when I was that age was more about having fun with the social worker, we'd play games and when we did talk about my feelings it wasn't on the deep level that it needed to be because that was where I was the most uncomfortable. I think your SD needs a way to express her feelings of betrayal and right now she doesnt have that.

Years ago reading one of many diet books, I read a psychologists explaination of over eatting as.. people attach eatting to emotions because when emotions get too overwhelming the brain senses it as a need and if the person does not know how to fill that need the brain sends a hunger signal because that is one of the most basic needs and it is something that the person can provide.

I think she is eatting so much because she is hurting emotionally because of her mom, and she is hiding it because she is ashamed of it. She also lies to you about it because she is ashamed of it.

I have no idea how to help this type of situation. Like I said I lived through it and it took years of reprograming my eatting habits as an adult, this is something that at times I still have to work on. If you can help her now that would be best for her.

HTH!

I would discuss these issues with the counselor and get her advice on them. The food stuff could be a huge health issue eventually and could lead to obesity or bulemia.

I would make an appt. with the family dr. too and discuss this with him/her.

Growth spurt .... mine eat like its going out of style at different times of the year... gain a few pounds then grow a few inches ... mine would eat anything just to eat ... she could be developing and trying to hide it with a weight gain.

Her lunch on fridays you are packing her a lunch and she is buying a lunch from school any chance she is saving the lunch for a weekend snack or meal????

I used to have to pack them snacks and sometimes even meals to bring to mom's because she didn't have any food for them.... cut her some slack on the lunch thing on fridays let her buy and pack her backpack with "healthy" stuff she can snack on over the weekend...

I know kids of this age can be extremely hungry (eating to fuel growth spurts); I also know that even at 32, I am one of those who's "always hungry", a "nibbler", a "grazer"... which I've actually been told is healthier, both for your weight and your nutrition. For what it's worth, I'm 5'1", 100 lbs., and I've pretty much been this size (fluctuating 1-3 lbs here and there) since I was 13, eating the same way with many "snacks" throughout the day. I don't diet (actually eat quite a bit of junk) but I exercise a few times a week. I basically "listen to my body" and eat when I'm hungry, don't eat when I'm not hungry (even if everyone else is eating dinner at "dinnertime"... but then I might go for the cookies at 10:00 p.m...) I realize everyone's body genetics/metabolism is different, but I don't think frequent snacking has to be bad. Provided, of course, that she's not ALSO eating 3 big meals a day! And provided that her snacks (especially if she tends toward retaining weight) are relatively low-cal, low-fat and healthy.

Maybe you should meet with a nutritionist. It could be that your SD is listening to her inner hunger clock instinctively... in which case maybe the best thing is for you to make dinner liek you usually would, with a portion for her, but let her eat it when she's hungry. If you enjoy the family "mealtime" thing, maybe she can sit with everyone but just nibble a salad or some low-fat chips while everyone else eats their full dinner...

In general, I think it's important to avoid connecting eating (even on the sly) with shame or embarassment. Because it could eventually go one way or the other, where she either stops eating (anorexia) out of shame or over-eats (bulimia, or just overeating) as her own private "thrill" in breaking the taboo...

When I met my DH, SD was almost 6. She weighed 93lbs. and was about 42 inches tall. I noticed right away that her dad would give her adult portions and she would eat every bite on her plate, then scrape the empty plate with her fork. She only wore stretchy pants and had one pair of 14 Reg Capri's that fit her like long pants. She looked so uncomfortable and would be out of breath just trying to run across the livingroom. She'd also cry because kids were teasing her at school. I thought for sure that her mom must be overweight since dad was very thin. Nope, mom was thin too. Both parents just let her eat as much as she wanted and she didn't seem to know when to stop. She'd stop when there was no more food, even if she looked like she was forcing herself to continue eating.

theotherside: I know she lies to avoid getting in trouble and that's normal. But she won't get in trouble for some of the things she's lying about. I told her if she wanted Strawberries, just ask. I'll wash them and remove the stems for her. She doesn't have to sneak and lie about it. The candy might be a different story. We are on a well so I don't know if it's contaminated but we do use bottled water in the fridge. It's more of an issue of why be sneaky about it? She can get water anytime she wants, why lie to me and say she has to go to the bathroom to do it?

midwestmommy: That makes so much sense in her case. Her counselor is aware of the food obsession, she's mentioned it to me. She says they go on walks and SD will describe things as food. The berries on a bush look like dot candies or clouds look like marshmallows, etc. I know that, I too am an emotional eater. In the other thread I started, I'm getting frustrated by my own eating habits because I eat when I'm stressed and I want to change it.

As far as her saving her Friday lunch for the weekend, I might believe it if she knew how to stop herself. She will eat things she doesn't like, which is why she was complaining to her mom about the peanut butter & jelly sandwiches I put in her lunch. I asked her what she did with them since she doesn't like peanut butter and she said she ate them. I know that when we picked her up on Easter Sunday, she said she hadn't eaten anything at all that day except the candy from her easter basket. It makes me wonder if she gets real food at her mom's. Her mom doesn't cook so they eat a lot of convenience foods and eat out.

Right now, SD is 87lbs and about 4'8". She still has those 14 Reg. Capri pants and they now fit her loose as Capri's, not long pants. She weighed 96lbs when she came back from her mom after Christmas. Hardly any of her clothes fit her then either. (but her mom letting her eat anything she wants and as much as she wants is out of our control)

At our house, on a typical day, she gets:

Breakfast: Half a blueberry bagel w/ cream cheese
a banana
Milk

(at recess, she can take one snack from her lunch)

Lunch: Turkey & Ham Sandwich on wheat
Cheese Crackers
Pudding cup
Applesauce cup
Fruit roll up or mini granola bar or twinkie
Juice box

Afterschool snack: three graham crackers & milk

Dinner: Half a chicken breast
scoop of rice pilaf
sliced peaches
milk

I've increased her portions a little because I know she's growing and well, she's almost as big as my daughter that is 17. She's bigger than both her grandmas. I don't think it's an issue of her not getting enough food as much as it is dealing with her emotions. If it's because her mom isn't feeding her nutritious food, I'd be delighted to send food with her but I don't think SD cares that the food her mom gives her is junk, she's always crying because we don't eat out over here as much. (and I mean literally crying.. she wanted to eat out one night but DH said no, SM's cooking dinner and she went to take her shower and was wailing that she wanted to eat out and we never eat out!) So, I know there is more going on in her head. I wish her counselor would get down to it because like midwestmommy said, it feels like I'm paying for her to 'play' for forty minutes and get a snack. My co-pay is $20 and so that's an expensive babysitting session. SD does open up with the counselor on some things and she admits she's angry at her mom but it's been seven, almost eight months and it's always the same thing. She's angry at mom but doesn't want to tell her mom how she feels. I know she's afraid her mom won't see her at all if she does. Her mom has and is still filling her head with promises that she can go live there, even though she isn't. The counselor has tried to talk to BM but BM doesn't want to discuss it with her. She tells DH that SD doesn't need counseling so she's in complete denial and doesn't think there's a problem.

I'm trying not to overreact because if it were one of my kids lying to me, I know I would never tolerate lying from my own kids. I know all kids lie and my kids got lectured from me and for the most part, I knew my kids well enough to tell right away when they were lying. My son's eyebrow twitched so they didn't get away with it. And like theotherside said, when my kids lied, I think it was to avoid trouble. They lied about things I would get mad at, like breaking something or hitting each other. SD's lies are not the typical kid lying and I feel it's a deeper problem and I don't want to jump all over her with the 'I won't tolerate lying' speech I used on my kids, but I also don't want to just let it go and have her think she's able to get away with it either. Even if there are deep rooted problems that are causing her to act out, I think she needs to understand that lying is unacceptable.

I'm going to call her counselor on Monday, she has an appointment for Tuesday and see what she thinks. I am also going to see if she can be more direct at SD's problems than just playing games. I think they've been seeing each other for almost a year and there is a lot of trust built up and she loves going there, so she may be ready to open up and deal with the hard issues that are driving her. I really wish there was a way to get her mom to wake up and smell the coffee but she's happier to be in denial since she is at the root of a lot of these problems.

Thanks for letting me vent and for sharing your input. It was all great advice.

My twelve year old is five inches taller but weighs less, but she eats a whole lot more than that. She can eat a whole medium-sized chicken breast, a couple of scoops of rice, a whole bagel, a couple of glasses of whole milk at a meal, and three graham crackers wouldn't even make a dent in her appetite after school. She often eats a can of ravioli (about 500 calories) as a snack.

your 12 year old probably has a faster metabolism. My SD eats more than I do. But, the amount of food she eats isn't the problem, it's they lying and hiding. If SD was really active and would burn more calories, then I'd agree she needs to eat more.

The three graham crackers & milk are in addition to the snack she gets in Math Club after school. She gets home at 4pm from Math Club and dinner is at 6:30.

and while it's a personal choice I guess, I think a can of raviolis is high in fat and we don't buy prepackaged foods like that. I cook most of the food we eat from scratch so I can limit the fat or sodium in our diet. Given the fact that SD has had weight problems and can't just eat whatever she wants without gaining weight, I'm more conscious of it. My oldest son CAN eat whatever he wants and not gain an ounce, he's solid. My two other kids can't. Your 12 year old is lucky to have a fast metabolism. or burns it off.. either way, I'm glad it's not an issue for you.

I think the counselor has to discuss the weight issue with SD. The best success I have seen is where the counselor and the parents put the child in charge of her own weight, explain the situation, and get the child to buy into the plan, not have it enforced on her.

Actually the parents took the child to the pediatrician and the child and pediatriacian work out a plan.

I agree kkny, but what happens when mom doesn't think it's a problem and won't talk to the counselor? The things she's doing are what is causing a lot of turmoil in SD so if it's an emotional based problem, there is a direct relationship to what mom is doing and how SD feels. If it's a nutritional problem, again, mom lets her eat whatever and even when SD was fat and crying that she was being teased, mom didn't think it was a problem. SD has been told by DH that she is responsible for what she eats. When she came home after throwing up the ice cream & tuna, she was told that even if her mom says she can have ice cream for breakfast, that it's really up to her to make better decisions about what she eats. or she should also limit herself and instead of eating as much ice cream as she can (or until it's gone), to have a bowl, not all of it. But, I really don't think SD has that much self control. That is probably why she got sick. It's also upsetting that she used to love tuna but since she got sick that time, she says just hearing the word tuna makes her feel sick. DH was telling her about the consequences of eating too much junk, asking her how she feels if she eats too much candy or cake and she says she feels sick and he tries to talk about it with her, she says she understands but then I don't think she can control herself when the food is in front of her. I know she probably wants to and that may also be why she is hiding it. She has told me that she is likes it now that she is a normal weight and kids don't tease her. She says she doesn't want to get fat and I don't want her to focus on that, I want to focus on her feeling healthy and being active. There are definitely thin kids that are out of shape and unhealthy too.

I don't think she should be worrying about her body image as much as she should be working on her self image.

Actually, I am always on the look out for calorie-dense foods for my 12 year old, as long as they are nutrient-dense as well. She does have a high metabolism.

Ima, this is why the counselor/nutrician/doctor has to talk to SD about health risks, etc and get SD to take control of her health/weight. Even in adults, doctors say people dont lose weight for others, but for themselves.

Has she ever been sexually abused? Many girls will cover up shame with food. I feel sorry for anyone who is an in the closet eater. It's not a fun place to be. She could even be addicted to the food. It's definetly not uncommon. Can't handle emotions and food is an instant gratification. Good luck to you both. Maybe talk with her about the underlying problem that maybe she doesn't even realize is causing her to eat alot. The hiding sounds like a shame thing to me.

When I first met her, it was one of my first thoughts... that she had been sexually abused. She was overweight and acted inappropriately around boys. She'd cling to or follow them around, say she loved them, hug & kiss them, stare at them, she even grabbed her cousin's crotch on a camping trip. He's two years older than her. The inappropriate behavior and her food obsession were big flags to me since I'm a survivor of molest. I mentioned it to DH but he couldn't believe it and was convinced that BM would never put SD in a position to be abused. Then, later we found out that BM had been having sex with her BF in front of her daughters. She shared a room with them in her mom's house and her out of town boyfriend would come visit and he stayed there with BM. If the girls were there, he'd still stay over. We aren't sure anything more than that has happened with her but it's nonetheless a form of molest to witness adults having sex. This is something her counselor is aware of too and hasn't been able to ascertain from her if she was ever touched and SD has been vague on saying anything to get her mom in trouble.

Is it possible that the lying about the school lunches is happening because she is embarassed at having to take a packed lunch? Girls her age can start to get really mean to other girls. Maybe some of the other kids are making fun of her for bringing a lunch instead of buying one, when most of the kids are in the lunch program.

No kid likes to be teased or ridiculed.

Maybe this is notot, but its a possibile contributing factor that I would look into.

After reading the original post i thought bolemia...very common in young girls but now reading more posts i think its the opposite. SHe's obsessed with food and this is serious. She needs to control this.
I saw a special about a young girl 12 i think who was well over 150 lbs. Her mother actually put a lock on the fridge! and then the girl would go out begging strangers to give her money for mcdonalds or any food. chips etc..mostly junk.
This girl has food obsessions. What does the councelor say? Maybe you should take her to another councilor who specializes in food disorders.

it sounds like maybe she needs more veggies and fruits, more salads etc. DD never ate much, but she ate huge amount of fruits and veggies daily, way more than your SD does judging by the menu your described. she would eat every fruit I would buy in pretty large quantities. it sounds like SD gets enough in terms of amount of food, but doesn't sound that SD gets enough citrus fruits or apples or any cooked or raw veggies etc

Whether she needs more fruits & veggies, I can understand that. What makes no sense is that she could ask for them or even just eat them in the kitchen, not sneak the food and lie about it. We found three apple cores in her dresser drawers. (that was in addition to candy wrappers) It's the hiding & lying that is the problem. I give her an apple when she asks. She is supposed to sit at the table with it or at least throw away the core. (I will even core it for her when she asks)

DH had a talk with her when she came back yesterday. She started to cry and told him that she is upset that her mom's BF is taking her mom away. She also is upset that her mom spends more time with him when SD's visiting. She says she feels ignored. BM spends a lot of time playing with his kids too, but this weekend his kids weren't there, but BM spent her time focused on her BF. She talks about their wedding a lot and plans they have. (I think she might be telling all this to SD so she will come back and tell DH, maybe hoping to get a reaction. I really don't think she has moved on and sometimes it seems like she is trying to find reasons to see or talk to DH. I don't think she wants him back, I think she wants him to be jealous or care. I can't quite figure out what her motives may be. and btw, she has a new '07 truck that she says broke down Sunday when she was dropping off her other daughter to her mom. She had it towed to the dealership where DH works. Then she tells him that she'll see him on Tuesday) Anyways, she tells all these things to SD, which SD gets upset and thinks mommy is forgetting about her. She also admitted that she gets hot lunch only on the days her mom picks her up so she can eat the lunch I pack her on the way to her mom's. We talked to her about lying and sneaking. I told her that if she wants a snack on the way, then I can pack a little extra but she doesn't need two full lunches and then her mom takes her to McDonald's or Taco Bell or feeds her dinner with BF. and I think BM stops on the way too. I know she sometimes goes to pick up her other daughter too.

I also told her that she should use her journals. She has several of them as well as drawing pads to express her feelings. She said she doesn't know how to tell her mom how she feels, she wanted DH to tell her. Every time he has tried to tell her anything about SD, she reacts with 'if there's a problem, it's HIS fault.' or is simply in denial that there is even a problem. We told SD that only she can tell her mom how she feels and maybe her counselor can help her with it. I'm not sure if the counselor will call her mom but it would be better coming from the counselor than DH.

Chiming in late here (I shut off my computer this weekend - stress levels are getting to me these days and I had to "unplug" for a few days)
Ima, I agree that the snacking is not an issue, but the lying about it and hiding it is. I see it as problematic for several reasons
1) With a little girl with as many troubles as your SD has faced, this could EASILY cross into eating disorder territory
2) If she comes to you of DH for a snack, you can monitor what she's eating to make sure she's eating well. If she's sneaking it, you can't make sure it's healthy.
3) Lying/secretiveness (in general) is a bad thing

So, confession time: I went through a food hoarding phase as a kid (I think I was around six). It was just that, a PHASE and I grew out of it on my own, although in SD's case, she might need some help to grow out of it.
I once took a pack of bologna from the fridge, ate two or three pieces and stuck the rest under my waterbed mattress. Obviously that made quite a foul smell after a while, and I got busted. I'd slip food from mealtimes into pockets (including things like salad or macaroni!) to eat later. I'd con my parents by getting a snack from Mom, eating it, then asking Dad for a snack and keeping it in my closet.

At the time I didn't know why I was doing it, but in hindsight, I do. My mom and sister struggled with their weights (both pear-shaped endomorphs) and were always watching what they ate, so I felt I should not want food and snacks either. I was NOT overweight (if anything I was underweight) and people always commented on things like "oh she's so skinny" and as a kid I felt really torn between that I HATED being called skinny and that I LOVED being skinny... So I had some pretty complex emotions about food.
I wasn't underfed, or ever denied snacks (unless it was very close to mealtime or bedtime), but I was mixed up about food for awhile. I think my logic in the hiding it was that if no one knew about it, it wasn't real, and I wouldn't gain weight, even though another part of me wanted to gain weight so people would stop calling me skinny all the time, so I wanted to eat a lot. I also know that I felt quite a thrill of control that I was choosing when to eat a snack without asking (I know, I know, my rebellions were ridiculous)
I suspect that SD is pretty mixed up about food and has a somewhat similar idea in her head, that if she does it in secret, she's not really eating.

Getting busted on the bologna broke the habit for me... But my only idea for your SD would be to take her to the grocery store and let her pick a few healthy snacks to keep at home. Put them out in a bowl (so she has fruit and granola bars and raisin packets etc at her easy reach) and explain that she doesn't have to ask to eat these snacks, but that you'd like her to eat them around other people and put the garbage in the kitchen garbage can, because "fruit garbage in your bedroom can cause germs". If she wants to know why she's supposed to eat around other people tell her that you read that "people who eat their meals and snacks with family and friends are healthier and live longer! So Dad and I want the whole family to live long and be healthy!"
Giving her control over her own healthy snacks, but encouraging her to eat them around others might help with this!