Does it really matter who is "in control?" When you housebreak a dog, maybe the dog is thinking, "Gee, I got her trained - all I have to do is bark at the door and she opens it for me."

As to boys or girls, although, on average, boys toilet train later and mature later, it is dangerous to make generalizations. After my son was born, people kept making comments about how I would have to get used to him being much more active than his sisters, but he has always been one of the quietest of my kids.

Every child is different. A poster on another thread said that parents mold their children, but that is true only to a very limited extent. Much of their personality is there before they are born, and the variability, even within siblings with the same parents, is incredible.

I've had toddlers for whom a time-out was effective, and others for whom it didn't work at all, unless you didn't let go of them. I've had toddlers who, when upset, would go their rooms of their own accord, who knew when they needed time alone to calm down. I've had kids who could give Socrates a run for his money in debate. I have one who bursts into tears if she thinks I might be even slightly annoyed with her.

I don't think it works to decide to use any particular method of discipline, other than in the very general sense, such as avoiding physical discipline. There is no one method that works with all children, or even the same child at different times.

IMO, the most important thing is to model the way you want them to behave. "Do as I say, not as I do," just doesn't work - as my kids were quick to point out today when I reached for a brownie while my teen was cooking dinner.

did you put the brownie down?

Yep, I did.

Most of the time , when a child acts out in a store, its because they are tired or hungry, or because they have previously gotten something by acting out.

As adults, we forget that kids dont always fit into our schedules. We are so timed pressured as a society that we dont pay attention to the time clocks of young kids. I am exhausted after an afternoon of shopping, chores, and traffic. How much more exhausted would a two year old be, when he wants to nap but mom has to get the groceries bought?

Getting annoyed at a child when they are tired or hungry, because they are disrupting your plans, is pointless and unfair. When my children were young, if they acted out in a public place, we immediately left. I would just take them, leave the store, and go home. Yes, the groceries might be left in the cart, or some chore that needed doing might be delayed. I might have to return at two am to finish. BUt I did not allow my children to act out in public without immediately removing them and heading straight home for a time out.

This doesnt help with kids that are already spoiled and have learned that they can get what they want by whining, but it certainly works with kids that havent yet established that pattern

Kathline, I think you hit the nail on the head. Years ago, when not so many mothers worked outside the home, when families only had one car, etc., children werent dragged to stores when they were tired or hungry. Children and families had set schedules.

I think Ima was refering to my story of the first time I took my SC to the market .... after being sick of listening to my own voice repeat myself over and over .... we left the market I left a cart full of groceries ... I dropped of my SD who was 6 at the time back home with her dad and went back with the boys and returned later on with my groceries ... my SC no longer try to take advantage of me while we are out .... they know I will leave immediately.

Out with dad and mom different story ... they have learned whine or ask something enough times mom or dad will change their answer.... when they start I ask how many times are you going to ask so I can answer you 20 times and get it over with...

It was one of my pet peeves with hubby .... why say no ## times then say yes just say yes why put yourself through all that aggrevation of them badgering you for something and saying no if you are just going to turn around and say yes ... all you are teaching them is if they ask enough times they will get the answer they want. He has gotten much better with it just saying yes alot less "fighting" going on....

We are now down to about 3 repeat questions before they stop asking ... :)

I always planned trips to the shops, around sleeps, and meal, and toileting.

I have never had any dramas at the shops, because from day one, I set the standard of behaviour. I would just leave if I thought things could escalate into a drama.

Shops are just awful environments for children. So much colour, shapes, activities. And yet we take them there and expect model behaviour.

I have seen countless numbers of parents wrestling with children in shops, child screaming, parent yelling back "NO" or worse !

Reward the good behaviour, not the tantrums.

When they where a bit older, I would sometimes say "when we have done all the food shopping, we will sit down at that cafe and have a milkshake". Dangle a reward in front of them.

Sorry to sound like such a saint !!

Popi

every time I go to big grocery stores like Meyers i get so annoyed and tired that i feel like crying, so no wonder 1 year olds whine and cry. This is just not a good environment for a child.

There's a big difference between a 1 year old in the market whining and crying and say a 4 yr old big difference between a 4 yr old and an 8 yr old.... you expect it from a 1-4 but an 8 yr old, should show more self control.

'Does it really matter who is "in control?" When you housebreak a dog, maybe the dog is thinking, "Gee, I got her trained - all I have to do is bark at the door and she opens it for me."'

I think it does matter who's in control. The parents are the adults and charged with teaching children about the world. It's the adult's job to teach the child right from wrong. Children don't come into the world to teach the adults how to treat them or take care of them. Are you comparing children to dogs? While it's not surprising that you'd compare children to dogs, if you look at a pack of dogs, the mother dog will teach the pups how to behave like dogs. We, as humans, train our dogs to live in our world. Sure, the dog may be thinking he has you trained to open the door for him, but if you don't open the door, well trained dog will hold it until it's physically impossible. A poorly trained dog might make a mess by the door, or is he showing you that if you don't open the door, he's going to make the mess so next time you will get up faster?

Taking children to the store is an important lesson for kids and should be used as a learning experience. When they are small, a parent should keep in mind how tired the child is or how long is appropriate. I see parents drag kids for long shopping trips that tire out the adults, so yes the child is going to act up. That is not teaching the child anything. Teaching them how to behave in a store is something that takes time and patience. Learning trips should be planned so they don't turn into a fiasco where a cart full of groceries gets left and a mother/father ends up angry and frustrated. I learned that it is easier to do when you plan it than doing it as it happens. My oldest son, when he was around 2, threw himself on the floor in the middle of an aisle because he wanted something and I said no. I picked him up and took him home, leaving our cart. After that, I had to have a talk with him every time we went to a store. I let him know the rules (they were always the same but I reminded him) and if he started to act up, I didn't say a word (no warnings), we just left. I don't remember having any problems with my other children. When I got together with my exBF, I would take all six kids to the grocery store. They walked with me, one hand on the cart in a line. I was stared at but they were not running around. I'm not sure if I was stared at because I had six kids under 8, or if it was because they were quiet & walking in a line, three on each side of the cart (holding onto the cart). I could ask one to get me an item off the shelf and they would. I didn't make threats or hit them, I just expected them to behave or we would leave. I would tell them that if we don't get groceries, we won't have food in the house. As I look back, I'm amazed at how I did it. The first time I took SD to the store (a warehouse type store), she was jumping, skipping touching things on the shelves, grabbing samples, singing and her dad kept yelling at her to stop, she didn't listen. He was frustrated but not willing to leave the store with nothing. By the time we left, we were both in a bad mood and upset with SD. I let DH know that I will not take her again if he isn't going to control her. I think partly, he didn't know how to control her. The next time we went, I took her aside and told her that a store is not the place to sing, dance, skip, touch, or run. She glared at me and I told her that if she doesn't behave, we are going to leave. I also told her that she isn't going to eat any samples, she is to walk, holding dad's hand. She walked holding dad's hand and started to grab things off the shelf and was jumping. He told her to stop, she didn't listen. I told her, 'do we have to leave the store?' (which is more warning than I ever gave my own kids) and she glared at me again. She whispered to dad if she can have a sample. He said, 'what were you told?' and she glared at me again. We had several trips to the store like that but now, she goes with me and behaves completely. If her dad is there, she will still try to get him to let her do things she knows she won't get away with when he's not there, but he has seen the way she behaves and now he tells her no more. It's no longer stressful to take her to the store, but when he takes her by himself, she doesn't behave. I told him that it's up to him to make her. He's getting better about it but I know her mom lets her do whatever she wants and then calls DH to complain about her not behaving. It's really up to the parents and I see many parents that don't seem to care what the kids are doing, or not willing to do anything about it. I think my DH was in that category. It's one thing if you are a parent and you are annoyed and want to do something about it, but when you have kids that don't behave and you drag them to the store and they annoy everyone else around them, those are the ones that should stay home.

shopping trips are stressful with small children almost no matter what... even if they are behaving... the stores are usually so crowded that it is a pain to even get yourself a shopping cart and four kids down the aisle without it feeling like an obstacle course. And I get impatient waiting in a line for a long amount of time... so I cant really blame the kids when they get antsy... That is why there are certain stores I go to by myself. I think parents have to realize that not only is it discipline and making sure that the kids behave but knowing your own limits. I can not stand walmart... it almost always puts me in a bad mood... if there werent certain things that are significantly cheaper there I would never go... But, I already know that it is crowded, people are rude, the lines are long... I do not cart all four kids with me and expect us to all come out hunky dory in a peaceful mood. Infact, I try to go late at night to avoid as much of that as possible...

I mean yes, we need to teach our children how to behave in public and I have walked out of a store a time or two myself for misbehaving kids... but like I said take into consideration your own needs and limits as well before forcing you and your family into an unnessecarily stressful situation.

"Children don't come into the world to teach the adults how to treat them or take care of them."

I think they do, actually. I have learned just as much from my children and they have learned from me. It's reciprocal.

I think this is true TOS, but we have a head start on them as adults. We lead the way and start them down the (hopefully) right path. It becomes more reciprocal with age and experience.

I think my children have taught me what's important in life & about priorities. By having them, I learned how to love unconditionally. I learned to be strong for them. I learned a lot because of them but they didn't cognitively tell me what I needed to learn. They didn't teach me the way I teach them, by telling them don't pull a dogs tail or he'll bite you. Don't touch the hot stove or you'll be burned. Don't leave toys out where people can trip & get hurt from them. I'm just curious theotherside, what specifically has any of your children 'taught' you to make you a wiser adult?

Among many other things, that every child is different, that there is no such thing as "typical," that statements such as "nine year olds should be able to do such and such" are not helpful.

Ima said "It's no longer stressful to take her to the store, but when he takes her by himself, she doesn't behave. I told him that it's up to him to make her."

Gaaa! Have you found any solution to this yet?
A__ can be being good all day, but if BF takes him somewhere for an hour, he comes back a basket case!
I've taken to arranging my schedule for the day or weekend so that I can be there the whole time A__ is, because if I'm not there right from the get-go, I arrive home to stressed out BF and a little boy who won't listen and freaks out at nothing.
I don't understand the difference, because when I'm around, BF is a perfectly good parent and A__ listens to him quite well. I have no idea why this isn't the case when I'm not around!
Any suggestions, Ima?

theotherside, did you 'learn' that every child is different because your children came to you and said 'mom, we are all different, so treat us differently' or did you learn that by observation as you were having them and watching them grow from babies?

Personally, I knew before I had children that children are all different. I have two sisters and a brother, and NONE of us are the same. I have to admit that before I had kids, I never gave it much thought that one could be born with any sort of defects, until my son was born with a heart murmur. As he got older and it closed on its own, I felt very lucky to have healthy kids. I didn't realize how lucky I was when they were first born. But, over the years of seeing children that were born with problems, I've learned to appreciate my healthy children even more. That doesn't mean that my children taught me that, even though I learned through their existence.

However, now that my kids are teens & grown, if they read a book or study something, they have taught me what they have learned. In that sense, they have taught me some things.

Of course I knew, intellectually, that all children were different - but I didn't truly grasp how true that is until I had children of my own. They have taught me about subjects they have learned, and I have taught them how to factor a polynomial, for instance, but those things are not the most important lessons one's kids teach you or vice versa.

I have done the same thing. When SD was with us every other week, DH was picking her up from BM on Friday after work. SD would come in with an attitude toward me and it would stay that way all weekend. Then on Monday when dad goes off to work, she will realize she needs me for things and start to be nice. It's real hard to be ignored and snubbed all weekend and then want to do fun things for her the rest of the week. Especially when I know that she's only asking me because I'm the only one here, it makes me feel like chopped liver. I then started to pick her up on Thursday after school and she stopped going to her moms on Friday after school. That helped because she was with me for those few hours before DH got off work and I could use the time to try and connect with her. But then Saturday morning, she'd have the weekend attitude again. It has taken almost two years and she still does it sometimes. I will tell her straight up that I won't do things for her except what needs to be done, if she treats me badly. She behaves when I'm around but there is nothing you can do about how they act with their parent. You can only control how you react to it.

My SD still acts up with her dad and then acts like a brat with me after spending time with her dad. It's tough. The only answer is for him to handle it when he's with her. She knows when I walk into the room, her bad behavior won't be tolerated. I've never hit her but I have raised my voice to her. She has gone to her mom and said I yelled at her. Of course, when I heard that, I told her that I have never yelled at her. I told her that, yes, I have raised my voice but if you think I've yelled at you, I haven't. When I yell at you, you will know. She has no idea. I wish I could give you some useful advice but the truth is, SD only behaves when I'm around. If she doesn't, I remind her that I won't put up with it. Dad backs me up, but when I'm not there, she does get away with more because he doesn't see it escalating. It isn't until she is on his last nerve that he gets frustrated and then he's angry at her. I tell him that if he nips it in the bud, he won't ever have to get angry at her but he still lets it escalate. He's gotten better but I guess that's the only advice I'd give, it's up to him to change how he does things when you aren't there.