She didn't visit, for a long time. She was also fairly young when we got together and a child of that age cannot travel long distances and stay for a period of time comfortably. Young children *usually* prefer their mothers, and there were many mitigating factors in my situation. That doesn't mean he didn't see her or their relationship was not good. I think some people on this forum would be pleased that I didn't see her or impose upon their relationship. As children get older it is more possible to develop a relationship with them when parents have issues beyond the children.

Estranged usually has a negative connotation, (indicating a previously harmonious relationship had become hostile) that's why I reacted so strongly to it.

I find it ironic that you think parenting is such a "serious task" yet have lambasted others for their diligence in their child's upbringing. It appears the middle ground, where you sit, is the ideal for which to strive.

I think it cannot be denied that mothers are favored quite often by courts for retaining the lifestyle to which the *family* was accustomed while the fathers often have to recreate a home-life separately. Since many men have difficulties making a house "homey" it is a real disadvantage and makes it easy to say "but he's living in a cheap apartment with shabby furnishings, etc etc" while the mother still has the house, furniture, comfort items to which the kids are familiar.

I can see why men "give up". I don't think it's right, but I think to some degree it's understandable. I could have made my ex's life a living he!!, prevented him from seeing his daughter, etc. I choose not to because I think her relationship with him is her own, and really should have nothing to do with how I feel about him. Many women who *are/feel* wronged by their husbands take it out (emotionally) on their kids, and make the kids their (confidants/friends) against their fathers. My mother did to me. Children form an alliance with their main parent quite easily as a self-protection mechanism. That, and they are easily manipulated.

"KKNY said it above, a new dad can bring in more $$$ so his kid with old mom is OK, a new mom, not so much because some of the dollars will flow the other direction. I'm surprised that there isn't more clucking about how involved will he stay with his kids when the new baby comes. Nope, it's all about the money."

I dont see how mom remarrying, and SF coming on scene, should make any difference in how much BD sees his kids. What I did try to say is that SF is more likely to increae fiancial assets of a household than SM. First has nothing to do with second.

But if mom has more kids .... older kids are still supposed to get the BMW and will get it because mom will consult attorneys to make sure that kid gets a BMW no matter what.

Lamom ... how I see it ... first wives don't care how involved dad is as long as they are bled dry who care about how much time he has invested in his kids ... they will not give up until the wallet is full of cobwebs.

But if dad has custody ... mom should not have to pay support or be inconvienenced by her children, he's got a wife who can do all the mothering things .... but step back when she wants to play mommy of the year. And of course if she goes on to have more children she has another mouth to support she cannot be expected to support her older children.

I was supposed to do all for my SC but not reap any benefits ... I could take them shopping and buy all the clothes needed for the christmas concert but was not allowed to go to the concert ... they are her children and wouldnt want to confuse me for mom.

LA ... stop trying to change their minds ... Dad's lives should be on hold till their older children are financially secure on their own ... doesn't matter how long it takes them to get there 18, 25, 35, or 50 its all on dad to keep them in cash... or how mom poisoned the older kids to think dad is just a bank he is of no use to BM or older kids unless he is holding a fistfull of money when he sees the kids .... dad pays CS so he can rent his kids from mom.

Mom doesn't have to pay support afterall she should be hailed a saint she gave birth to them.

Sad part is if dad drops dead CS disappears and they care more about the CS than they do the dad. Better hope he paid into Soc Sec so BM can have more money. Because thats all that matters is the money.

SS wrote

"Estranged usually has a negative connotation, (indicating a previously harmonious relationship had become hostile) that's why I reacted so strongly to it."

If thats the definition ... then I am estranged from my SD11 who visits us on M and W and EO Tues.

We were very close until her and her mom decided I wasn't good enough for SD any longer .... and now we are familiar strangers or whatever you want to call it .... she comes here to watch TV and talk on the phone with her mom. She and I do not interact at all. When she does interact with the family she starts fights with her brothers talks to her Dad like he is a piece of $h1t .... and does not speak to me ... the new thing is to call dad by his first name and mom's BF "daddy" ... thats going over big time in my home!!!!

" dad pays CS so he can rent his kids from mom."

Sadly Pseudo, I think in a lot of cases that's exactly the truth.

The irony is that in cases where parents stay together, and, say, the main income earner loses their job, etc. and standards of living go down, the whole family pulls together and kids don't get the BMW.

But when divorce happens, the father is expected to somehow maintain that standard or he is a "bad dad".We pay an outrageous amount of CS for SD, based on DH's earnings 9 years ago. HA HA. He hasn't made that much since. But we still pay, and BM knows he doesn't make that much and she still gets her panties in a twist over how he could be paying more and why doesn't he chip in for their fabulous whatever she wants SD to do. Um... cause we're already paying hundreds over what we would if we went back and got it modified? But my DH pays it because he wants my SD to have a good life. He does not scrimp where she is concerned.

And yes, BM is horrified that DH got remarried. Nevermind that she had a husband practically while the ink was still wet from the divorce and my DH and I didn't even meet until years later.

There is such thing as mothers who hold it all together while fathers go off the deep end, and vice versa. And there is also such thing as mothers who are vengeful, only want the money, want to be the martyr and do everything in their power to make sure the kids are prejudiced against the fathers and so is everyone else.

Silver: Your last 2 paragraphs are so true. This happened to my DH. He left and she got evrything and he still paid for it all. She took out 10 thousand dollars out of his business account to redecorate the kids rooms and buy new furniture a few days after he left. My DH was asking for an extra day. He gets Wednesday after school and was wanting another afternoon. The GAL said in his report that the kids rooms very very beautiful and appeard to more of a home enviroment at the marital home than dads house, therefore he could not recomend another afternoon. He was not asking for an overnight just until 8 so he could have dinner, do homework, dad stuff.

Well needless to say he was very upset. It was his choice to start over, but he lost time with his kids because he did not have the same homey feel in his empty house.

We have now got their rooms done and the house decorated. All of them has said it feels alot more homey. I just think its wrong for a dad that wants to be more involved not to be able to due to his house not being very "homey".

I have a hard time believing the GAL denied him more time simply because the kids rooms were nicer at moms. Especially in this day. But I could be wrong.

I was speaking more of the moms who will be critical of the dad's living space to their children when they started out with the advantage.

Imo, your DH probably should have been ironing out his visitation rights while they were still married but living separate lives rather than being concerned about whether or not it was ok to have a girlfriend on the side.

KKNY quoted me "Is having another baby responsible? I think with most of this group, the answer is, if having another baby interferes in ANY way with the first kid (s), MY kid(s), then yes it's irresponsible" -- OMG THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE SAID." - KKNY No dear, I'M saying that based on the BM in my SKIDS life, my relatives and friends whose remarried husbands have 2nd families and spending too much time on this board learning how BMs/1st wives/adult skids think.

More kkny, "I dont see how mom remarrying, and SF coming on scene, should make any difference in how much BD sees his kids. What I did try to say is that SF is more likely to increae fiancial assets of a household than SM. " And that sportsfans, is where the rubber hits the BM road. No offense, some BMs road. Some go on, develop their own full lives, careers, incomes etc so a new baby from an ex-husband doesn't rock their world. The smart ones hold them all as brothers and sisters if for no other reason than to NOT get in a fight about money, NOT alienate the dad, NOT turn off the dad's extended family - the kids family (oh yes, so much fall out) and because they put their kids FIRST. Including their kids mental health because it's pretty sick to propagandize to a kid to dislike a baby or other little kid who is family.

I've shared here before that I have friends and relatives who act like the 2nd families of their ex-husbands don't exist unless and until, somehow it rocks the financial boat. I was lucky that my DH looked down the road a bit and that we waited to marry AFTER his youngest, SS now 30, had graduated from high school, after living with him for the high school years and had turned 18. And yes, BM had to renegotiate the CS, surprise, surprise, she didn't send A DIME for four years while SS was with DH going through high school but still scooped up the alimony. BM still effectively turned their heads against my baby, DS now 7. It's sick and it's sad.

Lamom, you say - "Some go on, develop their own full lives, careers, incomes etc so a new baby from an ex-husband doesn't rock their world. The smart ones hold them all as brothers and sisters if for no other reason than to NOT get in a fight about money, NOT alienate the dad, NOT turn off the dad's extended family - the kids family (oh yes, so much fall out) and because they put their kids FIRST. Including their kids mental health because it's pretty sick to propagandize to a kid to dislike a baby or other little kid who is family. "

But here to me is the contradiction. YOU always put your kid first. YOU admit your DH is better to your kid than to his earlier ones. YOU feel free to say you resent when your SGS gets favors. Are you trying to say that your stepchildren should treat their HB, your child, as family, and put him ahead of their nephew? Are you defining family such that half-brothers come before nephew, even if nephew is more needy? Becuae thats what it sounds like to me.

Studies have shown that after divorce most women's standard of living goes down, most mens go up. I guess you people know the less likely ones. Just because mom is successful, doesnt mean no CS.

I see being a smart first wive as getting adequate CS. Any futures kids of my X are not family to me. I dont try to alienate dad, but I am not going to cowtow to any future wife. I get along with his extended family just fine.

KKNY quoted me "Is having another baby responsible? I think with MOST OF THIS GROUP, the answer is, if having another baby interferes in ANY way with the first kid (s), MY kid(s), then yes it's irresponsible" -- OMG THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE SAID." - KKNY No dear, I'M saying that based on the BM in my SKIDS life, my relatives and friends whose remarried husbands have 2nd families and spending too much time on this board learning how BMs/1st wives/adult skids think

Wow. Who is more needy? Cancer Kid or Neglect Kid? Shall we vote? KK, I think you've overstepped.

SGS gets "favors" at LAmom's expense. If they just did "favors" for the kid without involving her I think her take on the situation would be different.

"Any future kids of my X are not family to me." I think that's sad. They would be your child's brothers/sisters. One of the nicest things I ever experienced in SM/SD/SB/SS whatever relationships was a childhood friend of mine. She had a baby with a man who had other children with another woman. Neither of the women were with the man anymore, but my friend would drive to that woman's house and pick up her kids so the kids could play together. So the brothers and sisters could form a relationship. The kids, not related to her, would call her "Aunt". The women did not get along, (one was even TOW) but they put aside their issues and made the effort for the children.

What beauty there is in increasing family. What a beautiful gift she gave her child.

Silver, I have not overstepped (that is generally when a person, usually a SM, tries to take over for a SM). I have expressed my opinion, which you do not have to agree with.

In the unlikely event my X were to have more children, they would be half-brothers or sisters.

"I have not overstepped (that is generally when a person, usually a SM, tries to take over for a SM)." I'm so sorry, you're right. I checked my dictionary and that is the definition of 'overstepped'. My apologies. Perhaps you could look up 'sarcasm' for me too?

With my SD we don't say "oh, you mean your 1/2 sibling" when she talks about her siblings. Why differentiate? Why create borders? This is why I agree with LA when she says "they put their kids FIRST. Including their kids mental health..."

Why compare tragedies? What exactly is the point?

"If they just did "favors" for the kid without involving her I think her take on the situation would be different." I'd go back and read, this is not how I've read her sitch at all since the begining. There's been a lot of pointing the fingers at grown ups and children caught in the cross hairs of it. The grandchildren at one point didn't deserve gifts due to their parents behavior. Sad situation, all around.

Lamom, it's obvious to me you live in a place and are surrounded by people that completely defy our current national trends. Sadly the women who are owed the most in child support are among the poorest of our nation. I can't imagine in this day and age it's alright cause we're going to hypothetically hope there is a stepdad in the picture to raise the custodial homes income level so poor Dad doesn't actually have to be responsible for his own children and then Mom shouldn't have to hold him responsible. Kooky talk

KKNY, voice of the 1st wife/BM , "I see being a smart first wife as getting adequate CS. Any futures kids of my X are not family to me. I dont try to alienate dad, but I am not going to cowtow to any future wife." KKNY

And, cowtow is spelled KOWTOW. With a K? From the Chinese...

And there you have it, sportsfans. Send your checks and credit card authorizations to....tee hee, I mean your husbands checks and credit card authorizations....You are right, those new kids aren't family to you but they are family to your DD, ex-husband and any other kids. Like it or not.

And KKNY, what does adequate mean? No BMW for the first kid but a Chevy? How about no car at all because who promised her that? I come from an intact family, my sister got a fully loaded new Mustang when she graduated from college. I got other things including same Mustang, used, 4 years later. My friends and I totally loved that car. That's life for us all. Shoot, I should have asked for a BMW.....if my parents had been divorced my mother might have coached me to do so had my dad's new wife been pregnant with an unwanted half, but they weren't, so they didn't...you get it.

To everyone else, I'm sorry for going so way off topic and taking the posts of one person so personally.

Silver, I assume no one IRL calls anyone Half-brother, etc unless needed for some obscure reason. But I am describing relationship. And particulary if the kids never lived togethor, see their younger half sibling getting treated better than they did, they arent likely to be close.

It is self-serving for a SM to demand that the half-siblings care about her kid. My guess is is more likely to happen where dad was good father to all.

No, you aren't describing the relationship, because it doesn't exist now, and may not ever. You're describing how you, the mother, would define the relationship of her child and her child's siblings (ahem. I mean lesser 1/2 bloods).

And that's it in a nutshell.

My SKs made the comment that if DH and I have a kid it will be their step brother or sister and that would embarrass them. DH told them "no, it would be your brother or sister. They they would share the same blood". They just said "Oh okay"
I have a brother that is from my Dads first marriage. He is my brother just lke my other brother. No difference to us if we have different moms. His mom is like an aunt to me. Wierd i know.

Jess you can call people whomever you want. If a person has one and only parent in common with someone they are half brothers.

Whether or not it embarrasses them is entirely different. Your DH can tell them whatever he wants -- I suspect they know the truth.

Huh?

I am not sure when i said anything about not supporting diligent parenting. i am in huge support of diligent parenting since i am a very diligent parent. I devoted myself to raising an intelligent and honest person. Hours of reading and playing and teaching my child, and taking my child places and going out of my way making sure she received advanced education etc, teaching values etc. I did a good job as a parent.

I am in no support of controlling overbearing and punishment driven parenting. it only causes children to lie and causes estrangement as they grow older.

I think we have different understanding of diligent parenting. spending quality time and exposing them to great things is diligent parenting in my books. spending time figuring out what type of consequence/punishment to apply in what incident is not type of parenting i support.

I do think we have different understanding of involved/diligent parenting.

"It is self-serving for a SM to demand that the half-siblings care about her kid. My guess is is more likely to happen where dad was good father to all."

I think it is unreasonable to demand love and care from children, it is OK to demand civility. But love and care will be there if everything else falls in place.

DD truly loves her brothers. I am glad it worked out that way. But I have nothing to do with it. i ask how they are doing but other than that, there is nothing I had to do about it. It is funny that BMs or SMs are expected to do something about kids accepting their siblings (dad's side).

So it is BM's fault kids don't accept their siblings? BM has nothing to do with anything. Kids aren't stupid.

Let's put it this way:

"Jess you can call people whomever you want. If a person has one and only parent in common with someone they are half brothers."

"Jess you can call people whomever you want. If a person IS ADOPTED... they are... ADOPTED brothers. "

Sounds kinda like I'm being a jerk, doesn't it? Well, it's true. If you're not related 100% by blood you'd better make sure everyone knows their place.

FD, being diligent is doing the best you can with the skills you have. It is steady, earnest, energetic effort. Diligent parenting is making the effort to be a good parent. Since you have lambasted me for the efforts I have put forth because they don't conform to your opinion of a good parents, we may be at an impasse. You don't support people doing things any way other than the way you did it. You don't look beyond yourself to ask "could there be a better way". I am constantly revising, reshaping my opinions about many things because I do not feel I am the end-all, be-all of a person. I am a person in the process of growing, of being.

And parents do poison their kids against people. I know you may find it hard to believe. Kids aren't stupid. They figure it out sooner or later that Mom or Dad are making little snide comments that go right over their head until one day it CLICKS and they realize why they always felt so uncomfortable. Believe me. My mother drenched me in poison about my dad for years, and I didn't figure it out until last year just how venemous and how much it affected me. See, she masked it well. She'd tell me how much she "loved" my dad when they were married and how she just wants "the best for him". LOL. That may be true, but she sure has a wicked way of showing it. It's a horrible tug-of-war. What do you do when you realize your parents have been lying to you? Especially if you don't know if they realize it themselves? Most people have their heads stuck so far up their own butts they can't even realize how bad their behavior stinks. They're completely oblivious to the truth of their actions.

Quote from Silversword:

"And parents do poison their kids against people. I know you may find it hard to believe. Kids aren't stupid. They figure it out sooner or later that Mom or Dad are making little snide comments that go right over their head until one day it CLICKS and they realize why they always felt so uncomfortable. Believe me. My mother drenched me in poison about my dad for years, and I didn't figure it out until last year just how venemous and how much it affected me. See, she masked it well. She'd tell me how much she "loved" my dad when they were married and how she just wants "the best for him". LOL. That may be true, but she sure has a wicked way of showing it. It's a horrible tug-of-war. What do you do when you realize your parents have been lying to you? Especially if you don't know if they realize it themselves? Most people have their heads stuck so far up their own butts they can't even realize how bad their behavior stinks. They're completely oblivious to the truth of their actions."

This is so true for us. BM has always done this to the skids and it's incredibly nasty. But yes, she's so good at it, she masks it very very well. And she does tell the skids how much she still 'loves' FDH and how she wants the best for him. Ha! I can't believe you just wrote that!

I think the reason our BM doesn't realise what she's really doing to these kids is because she has a mental disorder. I know she hasn't been diagnosed, but she has all but one symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder. The main issue with BPD is fear of abandonment, and this is so all consuming to the BPD-sufferer that she'll do whatever it takes to try and hold on to people. Even if that means she has to try and poison them against their own dad, so be it. It's very sad, and ironically she pushes people away from her even more by doing this, instead of keeping them close. It's a devastating disorder, it really is.

Oh and I didn't read all other posts, I just started on the bottom :-)

Adopted children have all the legal status of children born to a couple. Calling a half brother a brother and saying that you are of the same blood is ignoring that the child has another parent. It is writing off that other parent.

And how many people blaming mom for badmouthing are really blaming mom for dad's shortcomings as a parent.

KKNY, you can't write this off as "legal" or "non-legal". Many half-siblings have the same "legal" parents. Haven't you ever heard of step-parents adopting their spouse's child? Calling your half brother "brother" without insisting on qualifying that relationship with the blood issue is not "writing off" the other parent. It has nothing to do with the parents, and everything to do with the people who actually have the brother-relationship.

I don't know how many people blame the mother for badmouthing and are really blaming her for her ex-husband's shortcomings. I'm sure you have an internal statistic. But, IMO, that doesn't matter. Parents should not badmouth the other parent to their children. No matter whose fault it is. No matter who is wrong. I think a lot of parents blur the line between "my relationship with my ex-husband" and "my child's relationship with their father".

Promises made/broken between two friends should not affect a third friend. Everyone is entitled to their own relationship with each individual in their life.

The problem is, mom badmouthing and dad's shortcomings have absolutely nothing to do with one another. One bad behavior does not excuse the other. Dad may be the WORST parent in the world. Doesn't mean Mom is entitled to badmouth him to the kids. Like it's been said, they aren't stupid. And their relationship with Mom will be a lot better if they are allowed to figure out Dad's shortcomings on their own.

Many half-siblings have been adopted? I certainly dont think most, but in any event, that is a entirely different situation, as one biological parent has given up parental rights. If you want to limit the disucssion to those kids fine. But dont lump in kids whose bioparents are not missing in action.

I said earlier, there is no need IRL in most situations to refer to a half sibling by title. I assume most people just use names. I agree parents should not badmouth X, but that doesnt make a halfsibling a sibling. If my X ever told my DD that she had a new sibling, I would say no, she might have a new half sibling, but that is it. I would regard it as badmouthing me if X ever insisted that a half sibling was my DDs sibling and not half, becuase he would be denying my role.

I never said badmouthing excused bad behaivor, what I said is some people blame their own failures on others.

I think it falls under what you consider "bad-mouthing." There's the truth (and everyone has their own version) and then there's inappropriate conversations imo. Everyone is going to be different. With some of the regular posters sitches on the board I don't see how they can avoid telling parts of the truth to their kids/stepkids.

It's one thing to explain to the child why Mommy doesn't pick her up for visitation anymore, it's completely different to discuss her sexual preferences. I do think it is up to the bio to decide what, if any, needs to be discussed with the child. And do the discussing themselves. Stepparents should not be a part of it (of course they can discuss with their spouse,) unless there is extenuating circumstances and they have formed a real, trusting relationship with the child. (Mom2, JNM) Not because of oversteps (although there is that too) but the relationship between the step and child will suffer if the trust is not there. The old shoot the messenger. And they just look petty.

Bottom line, if you have a pattern of acting irresponsibility someone will have to take responsibility and in a way you can't control. There is a difference in parenting styles, but not always irresponsibility and the distinction needs to be decided by the bio parents.

In Jess's case, the kids have already told her and their father how they would feel about the new sibling. The father can "correct" them about the title but the "oh okay" they gave is likely not an indication of correcting their thoughts about it.

"You don't support people doing things any way other than the way you did it. You don't look beyond yourself to ask "could there be a better way"."

Are you serious? you do like generalizations, don't you? How do you know I don't support other people's ideas? Of course i do, there are plenty of very good parents and different parenting styles that I am/was learning from. in fact I still do, i belong to parenting organization now! now just when DD was little.

But it does not mean YOUR particular style appeals to me or i have to be considering it at any point in my life.

if i find this particular style unproductive, it does not mean i am not considering bunch of different ideas. i am still learning how to be a parent. It is still a learning process.

Just because people don't accept YOUR parenting ideas does not mean they don't accept ANY ideas. It is just Internet forum, but we all have lives and real people that we consult with and spend time with. hopefully no one uses this forum as an ultimate truth how to raise their children.

"In Jess's case, the kids have already told her and their father how they would feel about the new sibling."
they don't like jess and they already plan on not liking a child.

i think instead of working on a relationship with kids SM keeps rushing into things that make relationship worse.

first move in, then marry, then ciritisize kids all the time, then talk about babies. all in a rush. like out of fear he'll leave if she does not do things fast?

kids clearly are not ready to accept new children, yet who is to blame, BM? i don't think so.

oh I don't know, kkny, I don't see the point calling them half-siblings.

I would not call DD's brothers half-siblings ever. not to other people, not to my ex, not to DD, not to strangers. people do ask ( for example who is on this picture? etc) i always say these are DD's brothers. I also know (and I witnessed) that DD's brothers refer to DD as their sister. Well the older one does, little one does not say much yet.

I don't need to call them half-brothers, people know they are not my sons.

I said, IRL, I dont see a need to call anyone by title, jusst name. This is what I said - "I said earlier, there is no need IRL in most situations to refer to a half sibling by title. I assume most people just use names. "

But if dad says specifically, this child is your brother, not your half brother, its either insulting to me, or laughable. My X wouldnt do it.

Now if dad says everyone in the house is loved, thats fine.

kkny, I honestly do not see your point.

my ex does say specifically "this is your brother" and I do not find it offensive. maybe I do not find it offensive because he also refers to DD as "their sister".

By your logic ex's wife should get offended that DD is not called "half-sister"?

i don't see how is it insulting to you. I don't see how is it to do anything with me? It does not effect me a bit.

If my X said what Jess's Dh said - "My SKs made the comment that if DH and I have a kid it will be their step brother or sister and that would embarrass them. DH told them "no, it would be your brother or sister. They they would share the same blood". They just said "Oh okay"

IMHO, dad should have said, no they would be your half brother or sister. Dad could go on and say but everyone here is loved, etc. But to say what he did ignores that there are different mothers. But it doesnt matter what I think, it matters what kids think. And I think most kids know that if they have a different mother, it is not the same as if they had both parents in common.

I see..in jess' situation dad's wording is off, as well as his and jess' actions.

dad married someone right after he left their mom and they are already talking about new children. these kids are emotionally disturbed due to dad's actions and now he pushes a child on them, they don't like their SM, they even think of their potential sibling as a step-sibling....hinting that new baby would not be their true family.

Like i said kids are not stupid, they know...It is very symptomatic that they refer to a sibling as "step". clearly not very loving terminology, but instead of doing something productive about it, dad and SM push their agenda.

i am just basing it on my experience. We got divorced DD was 4 and my ex got into live-in relationship 6 years later. DD had long time to adjust. DD's older brother is 11 years younger than her. and DD is not emotionally disturbed as jess' Sks are (who would blame them?). DD does not remember me and dad together, and she does not hate SM. So for her they are brothers.

i see now what you meant...kind of dad and SM pushing their own agenda (including wording) disregarding everyone else's feelings. As I think of it dad's wording do sound offensive in a context of their family. when kids asked, he had to address it differently. Once again kids' feelings were ignored as adults push their own selfish agenda.

--""My SKs made the comment that if DH and I have a kid it will be their step brother or sister and that would embarrass them. DH told them "no, it would be your brother or sister. They they would share the same blood". They just said "Oh okay" --

I'm still trying to make sense out of what Jess said, period. Makes no sense to me that these kids would be 'embarrassed' by the thought of stepbrother/sister but perfectly okay if more babies come along that are brothers/sister (called half are not).

I have a hunch 'we' got the short take of that actual conversation. I don't think things went from embarrassing to 'oh fine then' based in 'same blood' statement.

And, Jess, if you're reading, you went from your safe haven thread of asking for advice to this obvious debate thread, so your situation is fair game on this one. Why when you're still trying to adjust to a few days/nights a month and fighting over church clothes and your views of appropriate vs their views of appropriate your now discussing future children at this point, is beyond me.

No quick talk of 'siblings' and 'blood' is going to spare you the reality of what or how these kids will feel. The kids don't like you at least yet, they have not accepted nor dealt with their father's betrayal and new life yet, just wait till they see dad and you doting over a new baby 24/7. Even if they really want to like and accept the baby as their sibling (babies are innocent, not the baby's fault) no matter if it's called Joey/Sally, HalfB/S, or just B/S, things will never be as simple as 'oh, okay'.

Anyway....not joined in this thread though I've read parts and pieces here and there. Not much I can relate to in this thread. Dh and I never had bio partners from previous relationships that had to be considered, nor have the kids ever had to deal with somebody getting/doing something they themselves did not get/do. So my 2 cents in this thread would be coming from a different circumstance than what other posters in stepfamilies would have had to deal with and/or be comfronted with.

My kids are well aware of actual bloodlines in our family, but it's never been an issue nor something of concern as DH and I are the only two 'parents' they have ever had the kids have always considered each other as brothers/sisters.

I can see why finedreams is okay with her daughter calling her daughter's halfbrothers 'brothers' and I can also understand why KKNY would object to KKNY's daughter demanding to KKNY that any future kids in KKNY's ex's life are to be called and considered full siblings.

Taking finedreams, KKNY, and myself and looking at each of our situations as individual cases rather than the one and only way for every family, it becomes easier to see that there's no right or wrong answer here. But if one looks at Jess's case and she chooses to force another child on her sks (especially too soon) and demand they be called and considered whole siblings, she'll be on here whining 'my stepkids hate my baby' and wondering why and asking for advice to 'make it better'.

I suspect kids are embarrasses at the thought of, as they said, stepkids, because they are teens, and teens can be embarrassed at the tought of their parents having sex. Not certain if step, half or full sibling wouldnt have same result. I think dad should have just said matter of factly, well there are no immediate kids coming, but point of information, they would be your half siblings, not step, and we would love everyone in house. As I have said a number of times, I would expect people to be called by name (or maybe the baby or sweetiepie), not title.

To clarify to all of you that think we are pushing a baby down my SK's throats. You are simply WRONG.

When we sat them down after dinner to discuss why they think I dont like them. They kept asking why they couldnt be excused. Their minds were wondering, they asked if it was something bad, they asked if someone died, if my old dog was dying, finally the middle one looked at me and asked "are you pregnant"? I asked her if she thought that would be a bad thing.She responded with, she is in the middle. The older one chimed in and said that she would not like having a step brother or sister, that would be imbarrassing. DH corrected her about them being steps. They know who their mother is no need to tell them the baby will have a different mom. All I said is I am glad to get their feelings on the subject. Then we went on with our conversation. So the pushy SM and horrible father that did not say the correct term "half sibling" have not been talking about a baby. Why would I bring another child into a situation that is not good? Come on even being TOW I have more sense than that. Oh I almost forgot it is all BM's fault that kids wont accept the new baby. Half sibling sorry.

And for more information, the kids have asked several times and has implied that we will be having a baby without ever hearing us speak about it. Hmmm, I wonder where they got that?

And how does my situation become fair game because I commented on another thread?

LOL Jess, get used to it. Not only will your situation be regurgitated ad nauseum but the facts will be so skewed by the time they are re-reported you will not even recognize them yourself.

My personal situation was dragged through the mud to get here too. It's a problem when every nuance of your life is not detailed from the beginning so that perfect understanding can be had by those who have raised their children and therefore have cornered the market on effective parenting.

For those of us still in the trenches, working things out, figuring out what to do and how to do it, when things can change/ideas change/feelings change from day to day... it can be frustrating.

Example: I know, from my experience as an almost-SM when I was in my late teens/early 20's that a person should not try to change how parents dress their children. I had an almost SD who dressed like a little slut. She was 5. Her mommy put her in "Suri" heels, mascara, lip stick, daisy dukes and crop tops. I was SUPER embarassed to go out with this little girl. It helped that she told everyone "she's not my mommy". LOL. But I only learned that it was *none* of my business after making it my business and getting shut down. Hard. I also learned after attempting to take care of her dental/medical needs that no matter what I did I would be seen as the villin rather than a concerned person in her life. I learned, after getting my fingers slammed in the door numerous times... to start going in a different door.

That door? Her father. I gave all of my "ideas" to him, as non-judgementally as I could, and he in turn passed them on to BM, and together, as the parents, actually implemented my ideas. Like, brushing baby teeth. Who would have thought that was a good idea? Cause, y'know, they fall out anyway!!!!!!!

BTW, this little girl is now a teenager and dresses age-appropriate. And she brushes her teeth. Thank goodness.

My point is, if you want something to change, go through dad. He needs to be the enforcer. And if he doesn't, and if the parenting skills he demonstrates are not to your liking, well, you'll know that it's probably better not to get involved on a parent-to-parent basis. In other words, like me, you will choose not to have kids with this man.

So, I learned the "clothes issue" that you're going through, a while back. I still have a lot of things I'm figuring out though. Not a perfect parent, by any means. But if people think I'm uptight now, they should have seen me when I was just a (almost) SM. I didn't understand at all how kids really are and I was so strict. Poor kid. I look back and wow, did I have high expectations.

It's a learning process. Go into it with the "first, do no harm" mantra and you'll do fine.

"LOL Jess, get used to it. Not only will your situation be regurgitated ad nauseum but the facts will be so skewed by the time they are re-reported you will not even recognize them yourself." Silversword

Ditto. How many parents of any stripe EVER ask existing children for permission to have more children? Parents consider the impact on the existing kids, may or may not discuss it with the kids, but the parents make the call. Just saying...if MY SKIDS has been asked do you think I would have DS7?

But shouldn't the "OK" (Original Kids) be able to have their original lives continued without interruption? Isn't it their right to still get everything the parents planned when they were born?

I most certaintly would not ask my dd's permission prior to having more children.

--"And how does my situation become fair game because I commented on another thread?"--

Because you left the advice thread you posted and entered an obvious debate thread. I did my best to keep your advice thread on topic for moving forward and advice with what is going on for you/your Sks on that thread. It's not fair to a OP to call them liars, question their every word as being trusted blah blah. But when you jump yourself to a debate thread and make a simple comment 'oh, okay', I was fair warning you you had entered an area of anything you say in the debate thread can and likely will be debated. That's what a debate thread is.

Then in a debate thread (since Jess had entered it herself and gave a pretty simplistic comment she was 'fair game' to use in my post) I used myself, KKNY, Finedreams and Jess as different examples to show how things might be in four different families. The point was not to 'drag anyone through the mud', nor did I say anywhere that sks/previous kids must be asked permission before having additional kids.

My point in posting at all was to show that in stepfamilies there is no 'right or wrong' answers. No standard 'this is how it has to be' because all stepfamilies are different and all have different circumstances. A generic 'this is the correct way' just does not exist, and I clearly showed four very different stepfamilies with different circumstances and timelines of events to make my point.

Sorry if anyone felt pulled around the mud, that was not my goal at all. I think what annoys me most here (at the forum) is the generic generalizations and the views that run around the lines of 'I have never heard of such a thing, therefore it can't be', or 'not in my circle/backyard so it's true/untrue in all circles/backyards'. KWIM?

Jess, for the record, I hope someday you're able to add on to your family unit, I really do, but I also think you and your husband will sense when the current kids are ready for the event or as ready as they will ever be. Six months into the marriage with a stepdaughter talking about stabbing and doing you in with a blanket, whether she was dead serious or half serious/half kidding is not that time. And even when the time comes, there will always be those little things that set the current kids into unsecure and/or jealous feelings, no matter how hard you try to make everything fair and everybody happy and loved. It never is as simple as 'oh okay'.

And Jess, in my family my ex DIL left for the other man (actually he just came with the packae, she left for his money LOL) but I actually like the new guy. I'd struggle with what ex-DIL did to my son and grandson but I don't dislike the new guy. I wanted to, but the guy is really very nice, cares for and treats my grandson well, and when I have to see him at events I find very little I can not like about him. It's been an adjustment, but now that's it's done and time has passed, the OTM in my family is slowly earning a place in our lives (at least the grandson's) and we are learning to accept him and realize in doing so that's it's in the best interest of my grandson.

I would hesitate having babies knowing stepchildren want to kill me etc It would be just too dangerous for a new baby.

I do not understand what was the purpose of sitting the whole family down and discussing why they don't like SM. It was clearly embarrassing for them and they would come up with anything just to get out of it. This is a pretty bad idea.

Ditto on both not discussing at a round table session why SM isn't liked and not bringing anyone into the family who is defenseless while people are pretending to want to kill anyone. That was something I wanted to bring up on the other thread and just didn't. I don't think it was funny at all. This is super scary. That girl needs someone to talk to, and quick.

"I think what annoys me most here (at the forum) is the generic generalizations and the views that run around the lines of 'I have never heard of such a thing, therefore it can't be', or 'not in my circle/backyard so it's true/untrue in all circles/backyards'. KWIM? "

In my personal circles this never happens so I'm always shocked to hear it here (removes tongue from cheek).

I KWYM. :) And I agree.

"When we sat them down after dinner to discuss why they think I dont like them". Read again please.

We did not discuss why they dont like me! The whole conversation was why they think I dont like them. I wanted to know what I have done to make them feel that way what I could do to work on that. I do like them. They are smart, caring, good to little kids, creative, very likable kids. This is what I told them. I wanted them to know that I liked and cared for them no matter if they like me or not. It actually went well. We all had a chance to open up a little about how we felt. My working on the Saturdays is one of their biggest reason they felt I was trying to get away from them.

All three have to be in differnt places this wkend so I am going to have to change my Saturday. They get me all wkend at least one of them.

Like I said before, we are not bringing a baby in a dangerous situation. I would love to have a baby but i know I cant right now. I have discussed with DH the danger for the baby. he of course blows it off. Those are his kids he does not think they are capable of such things. I would not leave my baby with them for a second. Probably ever just beacuse she did make those comments.
The oldest has even said mean things about my 14yr old tiny dog. They were all told not to pick the dog up the first wkend we had them after we got married. (she was holding her while I was in another room and I heard her dad tell her to put the dog down that she has a bad hip and should not be held, so I came in the room and was behind SD, she could not see me, she said well maybe I will should drop her. I told her not to touch my dog again) She knew i was mad, DH had a talk with her. She now pets her gently until my dog gets snippy.

Anyway, they are in counciling. they all go once a month. I am to the point I think we all need counciling. Their mom too. Seperate of course.

Pseudo-as far as your OP, you said:

"How come dad's are blasted when they have more children ... But when mom's have second families they do not get blasted."

This has been my experience with DH and BM. I think I've talked about this on here before, but I can't remember.

A little background...DH had a son when he met BM. His son was about 6 or 7 when he met BM. She played the loving SM until right after the wedding (pretty evident in pictures I've seen). DH's son was 12 when they got married. BM got pregnant right after they got married. As soon as she got pregnant, she 'turned' on DH's son. She started arguing about his visitations, grilling DH about conversations with the other mom, refusing to spend time with the son when he visited, made plans when DH was supposed to visit his son, and so on. After about a year of the constant harassment by BM, DH quit visitations, after 10+ years. According to DH, BM wanted her and "their" daughter to be his only family. I'm not saying DH is totally blameless here, but I can understand the constant pressure and resistance he was facing (especially with what he's going through now).

Fast-forward a few years. When I met DH, he had been divorced for over 2 years, SD was 7, BM had been remarried for 7 months and was pregnant by her husband. No one questioned any part of it. It was all as if BM had the RIGHT to be pregnant because SF didn't have any kids. As a matter of fact, everyone at ball games and SD's school (except DH) was all excited and doting all over her. No one knew the backstory that BM had left DH and taken SD to move in with the "future" SF and then brought the future SF back to try to kick DH out of their house.

That was 7+ years ago, when I was 23. I was still planning on having more children at that time. I never imagined it would be 7 more years before I would get re-married. Now, I don't know if we will ever have anymore kids. Here are my reasons:
1) DH's son will be 25 this year
2) DH has two grandkids now; an almost 2 year-old and a 3 month-old
3) SD will be 15 this year
4) DS just turned 11
5) SD has moved away and DH's relationship with her seems to be crumbling away
6) DH is just now getting back on regular-speaking terms with his son

Somehow I just don't see how adding a baby to this mix will help anything. As a matter of fact, I feel like BM WANTS us to have a baby because she thinks that if DH and I have a baby together, he will just forget about SD (like she thinks he did with his son) and then she and her husband can have SD all to herself.

I told this to DH once and he said to me "for that to be true, she would have to assume you would act just like she did". I said "BINGO! She's a narcissist! She thinks EVERYONE acts/reacts as she would! That's the very definition of the disorder!"

I think that, while it was okay for her to do the things she's done, that if we were to do the same, she would further poision SD with stuff like "well, he has another family now" and blah, blah, blah. Right now, she doesn't have an excuse (that we know of) for keeping SD away. She keeps her distracted. But if we were to have a baby, I'm sure she would use that to her advantage.

jess, it is equally wrong to sit down all three children and ask why they think you don't like them.

It shows you know nothing about kids. They don't like you but have hard time saying it, it is much easier for them to pretend to be victims "she does not like us". This is typical of children who feel they cannot say the truth.

It is funny how you reveal more and more facts about the children. So one of them wanted to deliberately hurt your dog. Wow. They cannot hurt you so they thought to hurting a dog...No, I would not bring a baby to this unhealthy environment.

I don't know why you married a man whose children hate your guts, why didn't you give it time and slowly build up a relationship. This was a very stupid choice of you and your DH.

--"Anyway, they are in counciling. they all go once a month. I am to the point I think we all need counciling. Their mom too. Seperate of course"--

Wonderful, glad to hear the kids are back to counseling and that DH and you are planning to also try theraphy for yourselves. It takes time. You stated on the 3rd of March that DH was trying to talk to BM about sks doing counseling again. So it's just 20 days later and if just once a month, they've likely only gone once. Don't expect huge progress for sometime to come. You said the last time they went the kids refused to continue going as they did not like what counselor was saying and counselor did not agree with the kids at all times. Hopefully BM and DH will keep taking the sks even if it's hard at first.

I think you will perhaps get something out of counseling yourself, both with DH and alone. There's so many issues going on that hopefully he/she (counselor) can help you understand things from the kids viewpoint as to how this all affects them. But remember, just like the kids did, you may find the counselor not agreeing with you on all things, don't give up if the first sessions don't go well, it takes time and you may have to try several pros til you all find the right ones for you all.

Good luck.

Aren't we at 150 and closing this yet?

thanks justmetoo. Yes they have been once. The kids decided they would rather go back to the same councilor instead of trying someone new. We were glad for that. We are looking for one at the moent. We have several referrals to check out.

FD: As I recall you blasted another poster for being what most of us would call a good parent teaching a child responiblity and accountablility. And you want to call my DH & I stupid. I love my husband and we will make it through whatever comes our way. I am happyto be married to him, there are rough times, but I think thats true with any marriage.
You think we should nerver talk about the bad stuff that bothers us. We should keep it all bottled up right?. I happen to think it was good, it lasted about 10 mins, it was a little serious and a liitle casual. I wanted them to know I cared about them.

You can say we were stupid or whatever else you would like. Your opinions do not matter to me.

it closes at 151 so Ill post this then something else :)