Hi Catherine,

I started to write out a long message to you, attempting to give advice, but I re-read you post and after re-reading it, I don't see how you stand to win given all of the factors.

You didn't say that SO was divorced when you met or if he is divorced now, but everything you have said is indicative of very fresh wounds and high emotion. He may have moved on, but his family clearly has not. And they do blame you.

You said: Ex attempted suicide. Ex keyed your car. Ex came to your place of employment and told everyone you stole he man. Ex left nasty pictures for you to see and she calls and leaves messages for him on Valentine's Day telling him she loves him.

And the only child of his that you've had any communication with is his daughter, who called to tell you your SO sexually abused her and it was a lie?

And then your SO goes to the family home and spends every Saturday, all day with his family and his ex? What do they do all day long over there?

There is quite obviously there is a lot of anger, hatred and hostility boiling with his family and I don't see how you can win, or survive in this situation, especially with him spending every Saturday with his ex.

He's told you to ignore it, but that is hard to do. I would suggest that the two of you see a counselor and discuss what has transpired. If he won't go, I would recommend that you go and discuss the things that have happened and that continue to happen.

Please keep posting and I wish you the best,
June

Ouch. Tough situation for you! SO has moved on, but BM is still thinking that he's going to come back. It suprises me that SO still goes to the home rather than suggesting a neutral place, like oh, say a restaurant. If my DH's daughter decided that he had to see her in her mom's house and he agreed with it, heh, he'd probably be sporting said lamp from previous posts for a hat or as earrings. Especially since this happened when only when you moved in. I suppose I'm not as nice as you are.

His children are acting out towards their father because their mother keeps pushing and pushing and trying to push her way back into SO's life. They see her pain and it p!sses them off, hell they're teenagers. They're already angsty and obnoxious anyways because of their age, but their mom is pushing it and making them feel like junk for wanting to see their father so she tells them that they can only see him in HER home. Big mistake on SO's part for playing into it because in doing so he's playing into her wish to play "house" again and the nasty messages to you, romantic voice mails, and guilt trips will only get worse as time goes on.

I realize that SO feels like dirt about how his kids feel, but it's not his fault. BM is psycho and she is the one pulling the strings since she's still got SO jumping through hoops to see his sons. SO is merely the victim of her delusions and so are his children. It's not your fault, nor is it his, however he is enabling their behavior by playing into BM's whims. Ignoring things will only make things worse for you. These things need to be addressed before you get enough and blow a gasket. (Believe me, been there done that.) Talk to DH, ask him why he does things, how he feels and try to be empathetic for his reasons and then explain how things make you feel in a calm reasonable manner. I assure you, if you lay out your feelings in such a stark manner, if he cares for you at all he'll be more than willing to listen and help you to help him.

I wish you luck and keep posting! We're all founts of various information and opinions.

Welcome to the forums (or should I say trenches! ha!)!!

Catherine..Ouch, I could have signed my name to your post and it would have been accurate , save a few minor details...My SO (at the time, DH now) also spent time with the kids in his ex house, kids Bdays , Christmas, and I didnt like it one bit..Crazy ex(she didnt try suicide that I know of, but told the kids to tell dad she was going BLIND!!!)Lots of vicious behavoir too,but he did stop going to the house, kids starting going to his house only..Once they knew the new deal, if you re going to see me, it WILL be here..There is hope, late for work..will post later..Good luck Dotz

I think there are some good suggestions here already... and one of the most practical is the "neutral territory" idea. Maybe it would be best if your SO could gradually ease the kids into it by starting to alternate visits to their house with outings somewhere fun. That would accomplish several things: it would begin to establish a routine with them all that was theirs alone so they can build a strong new post-divorce bond; it would get them all out of what must be an extremely emotionally-loaded scene at the house; it would send a message of "working together", meeting halfway for a solution, and what visitation's really about (SO & kids, not SO & BM); and it would get the one SS off the dang couch!

Sadly it seems that when there's an X in the picture who's very much still raw/clinging, AND the kids are teens, that those two factors make for a bunch of extra stress on what's already an awkward transition. But I don't personally believe it has to be impossible. Given all this drama, if you're really in love with SO, it's probably worth sticking out the last few of their teen years with a very low and polite profile. (Not because they will magically "go away" when they're all over 18, but because once away from Mom they will start to develop more of their own objectivity and their perceived sense of security and happiness will be less directly tied to what their parents are doing.) Try to avoid dealing with BM as much as you can (Let SO start answering the phone at times she's likely to call) and let the kids decide when they want to come to your house & get to know you. If you answer the phone when they call, be unconditionally warm to them and make a polite attempt to ask them how they're doing. If they don't want to talk, simply say "allrighty... lemme get your Dad on the line..." Nothing between you and they should be pushed, because that will start to create problems (likely permanent ones) six ways to Sunday and you DON'T want to be in the middle of that. If you handle this next couple of years with grace and patience, you can at least feel that you did what you could, and they will most likely be able to sense your goodwill after a while... And when they leave home and move on (and when BM moves on!) their loyalty won't be so torn and they'll want to start making their own decisions about their Dad and what to think about him/you. But this will take time, so hang in there...

SO has to be the one to take the lead on this, but that by no means has to result in one of those dreaded "them or me" ultimatums or even him insisting the kids respect you. (Besides, it's not like they're bad-mouthing you, they're just keeping their distance, which in this situation can't really be seen as disrespect, but more like extreme guardedness.) All it has to mean on SO's part is taking the initiative to create more variety in their weekends and putting the kids before BM. He should give this plenty of time for their post-divorce, separate-from-Mom relationship to develop before he even mentions your name. Let the kids ask him about you in their due time. This way, the kids will feel more secure that they are not losing their Dad... and that they can even be closer to him post-divorce than with BM and everybody playing house.

His whole story sounds incredible;
either the family was messed up before he came along, & he's miserable, in which case he would drop it, or....

he's a big part of the whole system & will be til the day he dies.

This mess doesn't belong to you;
don't claim it, don't even let it in the room with you, or you'll become part of the system yourself.

You're already enabling:
supporting him enables him to support the system.

This guy is part of a Jerry-Springer-level, co-dependent, disfunctional, messed up family, complete with melodrama, self-destructiveness, rage, vandalism.

How long do you think it'll be before you find your car keyed?
your belongings ransacked & vandalized?

& do you think he'll be outraged on your behalf?

No, he'll say he feels so bad for you, but it isn't his fault & if you really loved him you'd understand.

Run.

& take your checkbook, & your heart, with you.

"As soon as he started dating me, she freaked out (attempted suicide, sent me nasty text messages, keyed my car, showed up at my work telling everyone that I stole "her" man (I didn't; he was available when I met him), left an envelope of pictures from 15 years ago of her and SO having sex)."

I would have run for the hills at any ONE of these things if it happened in the beginning of the relationship. Whether he has moved on or not, she hasn't and she may NEVER move on. My DH's ex didn't start making trouble until we got engaged & moved in together. But, he stood up to her on my behalf and if he had told me to suck it up, I would have had some choice words for him. Listen to Sylvia... it does sound very Jerry Springer... His kids are the least of your problems at the moment. They will always side with their mother and you will never have peace in your life as long as she holds on and he encourages it by playing by her rules.

i thought by SOs' and SDs situation is bad, but this is REALLY bad, I am glad you are not married that means you can leave with no consequences. Run. And run fast. Good luck to you.

The teenagers are acting out of anger and that is normal. They are aligned loyalty to their mom and always will be. Expect nothing from them. They are almost adults...not kids anymore. If they choose nto to meet you its their own decision and let that be. Would you force a relationship with someone who doesn't want it? Leave his kids alone and dont bother expectign anything.
As for your SO. He has to stand up to them and tell them all that if he didnt' care he wouldnt' be coming over every saturday night and spending friday nights either. He wouldn't still be paying a mortgage for a house he does not live in. As as far as them being poor????, Tell him he shoudl also state that if he wanted he could have sold the damn house and left them really poor and with no home!!! But he hasn't!
So, as long as your SO keeps going over there every saturday he will be abused.
Enough of 'you have to come over'Nope!!! no more. You are 17 and 18 and my relationship with you will be out of that house away from your mother.
You choose not to come over to my new house. Thats fine, its your decision.
But no more abuse, and screaming and yelling. Would you prefer that all of you gets jobs and pay for the mortgage yourselves!!!! How's that??
Your SO has to stand up and set boundaries and also state the fact that he does care by his actions and that he supports them money wise by having a roof over their heads!!!!
oh yah, is your SO still legally married? Cause if he is, i strongly suggest you back out until he settles this mess. If he is married , he should have divorced and then started a relationship with you.
The SD accusing him of molestation is disturbing and the exwife doesn't sound all there either.
There is some info missing from your post.
Is he divorced? or separated?

Maria,

I think we are all operating under the assumption that he is divorced, but I also asked that question in my post and Catherine hasn't responded.

This family sounds troubled. I would step back for awhile, let them accept & deal w/ a divorce. They obviously need mental health(suicide, rape accusations). I don't think you are the one to help any of them. It will take professionals & time. If he's worth the wait, stick w/ him but back off at this time. I would live in my own home, have your own personal boundaries written down, & seek counseling prior to getting involved with someone like him. If he's a door mat now for his X, he'll be one later, especially if you accept it. I think the kids would benefit from counseling too. They must have so many feelings that they don't understand themselves. If I were to see my Mom attempt suicide over my Dad who has a girlfriend & then questionable on whether he molested my sister or not. Those kids have to be confused. Lots of heartbreak in this family & confusion. Make sure he's worth it.

Wow! Thank you everyone for all of your responses.. very much appreaciated (even including the ones that say to run!!). Because sadly, I really don't want to run, because I do believe that if I have been patient through this so far, that I shouldn't have much longer before they move out of their home. I am looking quite forward to the fact that one plans to attend a college six hours away beginning in the fall.

June asked if they were divorced when we met. They actually were never married to begin with. Unfortunately, SO was a very stupid teenager and she was pregnant with their first son after dating only two months and both were 17. She refused to get an abortion, and since SO's father was never part of the picture for his childhood, he did not want his son to have the same experiences that he did. SO did ask BM to marry him on four different occassions through the first ten years, and she said no every time.

I didn't know my SO at all during the time he was with BM, or during the first year of when he moved out. The information that I do know is what SO, and SO's sisters have told me. The two boys were very angry when he left, and like I said - only the older one ever visited his father during the first year he had moved, and that was for his father's birthday, and father's day (a day in January and June). The younger refused to ever go to where his father lived, regardless of me being in the picture. SO has told them that I am open to spending a weekend here and there with my sister if they would like to come over while I'm not home, and they still refuse.

SO's mother and sisters have told me that the boys have always been obnoxious, lazy, rude, etc- due to the way their BM raised them. SO's mother told me about how when my SO's first son was born, BM wouldn't even let SO hold the baby the first two weeks after he was born. Any rule SO had ever tried to enforce in that home was always overruled by BM. SO said he was allergic to dogs, didn't like them, and no one would take the time to take care it, so no dog. BM took the boys out and bought the dog anyway. SO told them to clean their rooms, BM would do it anyway. Sons would ask for a ridiculous toy that they didn't need, SO would say no, or say they need to do more chores around the house the earn the money and buy it themselves - they'd ask BM and she would go out and buy whatever. Anytime SO told BM that he wanted to enforce rules, have an effective role in their life, etc... BM would get all upset, tell him he knew nothing about how to be a father, that he denies his children of the life the deserve and then she would do irrational things. SO has been pretty much walked allover since day one. His sisters and mother are all very happy that he is no longer living there, and get along with me very well.

hecallsmemom - As for the neutural location - been there and tried that. He's taken them to regular restaurants, bowling, mini-golf, movies, etc before only to have problems. There have only been three or four occassions when my SO was actually able to take out his sons for dinner without there BM. Every time he makes plans to take them somewhere, he goes to pick them up, and BM is dressed and ready to come too! He has told her, gentley, that he wants to spend time alone with his children and that he has the right to do that. She tells him that it's not her fault, that the kids want her to come. And it's true - if SO tries to go anywhere with them, they invite their mother along. If SO tells them he wants to just have some father-son time, they say Mom can come too (as if they don't understand that mom is not included in the term "father-son" for a reason), or they will say fine we'll just stay here then. They won't let SO take them anywhere without their BM.

Serenity - Wow. Thank you so much. Lots of words of wisdom & encouragement.

And, does anyone else think this is slightly abnormal for 17 and 18 year old males? I'm sorry, but when I was that age, I wanted nothing to do with my parents, and wanted to spend the weekend with my friends. They spend Monday nights, and all day/evening Saturday with their mother and father, and they are fighting for their father to start spending Sundays with them now too. What kind of seventeen year old high school senior wants to spend the whole weekend with their parents?? I just see that as odd.

sorry, didn't realize the car that was keyed was yours.

That's very disturbing;
it indicates that your senses of self-protection & self-defense are already imobilized;
this group will do a great deal more damage to you before they're through, & your "SO" will enjoy it.

Those boys moving away will not make 2 cents worth of difference;
the whole family, including your SO, is messed up & *dangerous*.

*Nobody* gets into, & stays in, that big a mess unless he's getting something out of it, & the likelihood is that he's manipulated it.

An old cop friend once told me this:

"If I answer a domestic disturbance call, & everybody's bleeding from stab wounds & running around & in hysterics & sobbing & crazy, & there's only one person in that entire household who isn't bleeding & who is rational & calm...
that's the person with the knife."

You're already enabling him, making excuses for him, denying that he's got any responsibility or investment in the situation, & you've already been attacked by proxy (your car instead of your body).

How long do you think it'll be before one of these people assaults you?

Take care of yourself.

My boys are 18 & 21 and no, they don't want to 'hang' out with me or their dad. In your situation, they have taken sides and are on the mom's side. They are doing what she wants and it's not healthy for them at all. Even though they are almost grown, I still see them as victims because they are doing this to make their mom happy. It's very dysfunctional and perhaps because she's been so overbearing all of their lives, it's what they know.

I told you that if I were you, I'd run. But what I didn't say is that your SO, whether you stay or not, NEEDS to stand up to them (like Maria said) and tell them.. 'I live here and if you want to visit, you are welcome. If not, I'm sorry you feel that way.' He has to take control of his life now regardless of who's in it. My kids knew when they could walk all over me and life got so much better when I stood up to them. I don't allow it and yes, for a while, my older son didn't live with me (ha hardly called or visited) but as he's matured, he's come around and realized he can't treat me like that. The first thing SO needs to do is stop going over there. and be strong when they lash out at him because they are going to try to make him feel guilty.. good luck.

Catherine, I think it easy for some one to say get out of this, but I understand you are invested in the relationship now.. geez, after all , you are the victim in these unprovoked( I m assuming)attacks..Lets blame the perpetrator here, not Catherine, telling her to run, when if she wants to stay and fight because she loves this guy...BUT that being said, I think the ground rules have to be , as most everyone here has said..Boys come to your house ONLY.....Dont want to, dont have to...Caller ID, she calls... send right to voicemail....RECORD voicemail...Legal action if necessary....SHRED any mail she sends, BEFORE you open it...SO takes no mail, no calls...Put some distance between EX sons and SO for a while ...REFUSE to see them if Mom is dressed and ready to go with...He really has to stop seeing her at all costs right now, or this will never end...If he meets your conditions , he s worth it....Also agree you cant force a relationship with kids, but if they start coming, maybe sometimes you can be there, other times not..Go slow, sounds like these kids have been thru hell with crazy lunatic, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned mom...If SO stands up, he may be workable for you, otherwise, I d have to say go, too..A life full of harrassment, not happiness is not worth it..I hope you have a good talk with him tonight...The best Dotz

I don't think anyone's blaming Catherine;
what I hear/read/say is "get out before you get hurt".

Love won't help you if your beloved's ex-wife & children destroy your property & wreak havoc on your life, & these things never stay "stable" or "level"; violence always escalates.

& loving someone who lets it happen is a disaster waiting to happen.

(That's why I said, "take your heart with you".)

I am very close to my DD but "no" she did not want to spend 24/7 with me.

I myself have hard time running and always hope things will improve, but this sounds too unhealthy. if kids don't want to come over when you are there, then he needs to meet them somewhere else, but not in X's house. It is NO No.

"SO's mother and sisters have told me that the boys have always been obnoxious, lazy, rude, etc- due to the way their BM raised them."

I would take a statement like this with a grain of salt. Their father was there, too, right? - and yet whatever is supposedly wrong with the kids is due to the way the mother raised them.

Gotta say again, Is SO with you, or not???? MOST important part of equasion here....Sorry, if I m the innocent victim here, I can tuck my tail and run...Or I can stand my ground, if SO IS WITH ME....They can hurt me, destroy me, be violent against me, I better run away and hide in a cave....and leave what I love...They win, exactly what they want... I dont know, doesnt sit well with me...Where are the cops and lawyers, assuming SO is in this together....Just lets give up???

dotz, here's a bit from original post:

"I told him that maybe he should give them an ultimadim and tell them if they want to see him more often, they have to start compromising and working together because he has already compromised enough of his schedule and lifestyle to meet their needs. SO told me that he can't do that because the kids "will see that as me [SO] choosing you over them". I told him that it wasn't him showing that he cares about me anymore than he does about them, it's forcing them to act like the adults that they already should be, or about to be. He says that he can't force them to do anything.

Sorry this got so long. I can't even find a solution for myself. He's asked me to ignore things and not let them bother me"

doesn't sound like SO has lifted a finger or is going to lift a finger.

Whether SO is with her or not, she has to decide if she wants this in her life first or if what she has with SO is worth putting up with it. We all have different levels at which we would leave. My impression is that SO is stringing her along by saying he is with her (on her side), then he gets in his car on Saturday and goes over to the ex's. His actions are speaking louder than his words. and I also agree with theotherside, it is NEVER all one sided. The way those kids were raised is as much his fault as hers. Even if she was that overbearing & controlling, he has allowed it and therefore, it's also his fault for not taking a stand all those years.

She isn't the one that needs to fight for their relationship, HE IS. If she tells him 'I'm sorry honey, I love you but I can't live like this.' then he has to let her go or man up and make some changes so she'll be able to stay and it won't drive her crazy. If he is with her, he will do whatever he needs to in order to keep her from leaving.

Wow, I don't know how you handled even a fraction of these things without walking out the door, seriously! I understand you love him, I just don't think I could have handled all of that, lol-

For a 17 and 18 year old to be acting the way that they do, it sounds to me like they are a lot like most teenagers these days (I have 6 kids, oldest is 27- I know whereof I speak, lol!)- they have the parent/stepparent 'over a barrel' as it were, and they are well able to manipulate the situation- and since their BM can't let go, she is definitely giving a lot of input to those boys, and all three of them seem to be acting on it- I truly feel for you-

In all honesty, your SO needs to stop and look at just what's going on with that whole situation with them, instead of expecting you to 'ignore it'- it isn't your responsibility to have to deal and be the recipient of all of their bad behavior, it is your SO's responsibility to do something about it-- he should be thanking his lucky stars that you are behind him the way that you are, nobody should have to go through what you're going through- it sounds as if he hasn't been laying down the law with any of them in the past, and he is basically being pushed around- I don't mean that badly, honestly I don't- but that really is what it seems to be-

If the neutral places don't work, maybe he needs to just tell them that this is the way it has to be, and after the two boys get angry and go home a few times, my guess is they will start giving in- the BM needs to move on, and your SO needs to help her do that by not giving in to her demands that he see the boys at her home- the rest of it, the lovey phone messages and pictures? Wow...that part, I would ignore- unless you took out a restraining order or something on her, lol~

you poor thing- reading all of that just made me totally cringe!

Catherine,

After reading your post several times trying to piece it all together, these are my initial thoughts.

It takes two to tango. Whether your SO is in the right or wrong, he is 'dancing' with them. He is participating willingly in this and needs to put a stop to it.

Additionally, it seems other than the occasional talks with the BM and the one conversation with the SD (and other than your car being vandalized, which I do wonder if you or SO called the police) you are only going by your SO's word of what is happening or his retelling of a conversation. You have no idea what is going on at BM's house when he is there or the actual conversations he is having with them without you in the background.

I personally, would not be comfortable with that. In addition to the fact that it seems there is more to the story than meets the eye. Even if they were not offically married, if they were living together that long isn't there some kind of common law marriage thing that happens? Why is he still paying the mortgage? Is it in his name? What happens after the 17 yr old turns 18? Is he still going to be paying the mortgage?

It just doesn't add up to me.

This is the part that has me wondering.....

He has two sons - ages 17 and 18. He also has a SD from that relationship who is 24,

and in a later post she writes:

SO was a very stupid teenager and she was pregnant with their first son after dating only two months and both were 17.

Math:
They were both 17 .... SD is 6 years older than oldest son he is 18 SD 24... 6 from 17 is 11 ... so BM was 11 maybe 12 when she had her first child????

He likes the attention or he wouldn't go back.

Most men who are no longer in a relationship with a woman would not allow her in the car ... nevermind go "hang out" with her... his children are old enough to make decisions on their own ... they know his address there is no need for him to go hang out at their mom's with them...

I won't say run ... but keep your eyes open... he has wool in his hands.

Sounds like your SO's a really nice guy who is being taken advantage of. Thats' sad. But since his kids are stuck to the hip with BM, which i find very abnormal!!!, he should take a step back and stop supporting them mentally and cut back as well financially. They are taking advantage of him. The teenagers are old enough to get a job and does BM have a job? He should stop paying the mortgage now. They are not young children, 6 or 8 years old. They are 17 and 18. He should tell his ex he will stop paying mortgage at such and such a date. Once the 17 year old turns 18 maybe?
He needs to disengage from ex. He is the one doing this to himself. He goes there and enables them money and mentally.
I can understand why you want to stay with him, His actions have proven he really does care and is a nice person. BUt he's being takne advantage of.
He needs to put his foot down for himself. He needs your shoulder to tell him he's been there for his kids an that he is a good father. He's paid many bills for his kids. But its time to cut the umbilical cord now. He can be nice and warn ex partner ahead of time if he feels guilty but its tiem to put a stop to the abuse this man is putting himself into.

Sadly, I think, the men in this type of situation DO get something from being in the middle... attention, kind of the catbird seat, & maybe on some level amping up the jealousy factor on both sides... and for many people if there's jealousy that must mean there's love... I thought the nugget that Sylviatexas shared was very poignant, about the person in the scene sitting calm while everyone else is running around at each others' throats...

I see this tendency even in my Dad whom you hear me talking so lovingly about... but I think he too has some of these issues.

This is where I think that SP's, SK's *and* BM's each get extra piles of blame dumped on them... nobody seems to want to take this stuff up with Dad (in most cases it's Dad in this catbird position, but not always...). Maybe it's an ingrained auto-pilot acceptance of male authority, maybe it's because Dad/hubby is often the meal ticket that no one wants to pi** him off... Maybe it's just easier to project blame on others we see as less powerful than him... or just less often. In any event, I think it's worth remembering to make sure we look for the "calm one" in the room, like Sylviatexas said. Not to focus ALL the blame on him/her, but let's not make the mistake of overlooking their role, either, in any/all of these situations...

cawfe brings up an interesting slant:

What do you know that you know?

What this guy says is what you think you know.

but do you know that they never married?
If they did marry, or if your state recognizes common-law unions, they're married right now unless they got a divorce.

that they're the same age (if she was 17 & he was 21 when she got pregnant...)?

that he pays that mortgage?
He could be hiding money.

that the stepdaughter's claims were disproved?

that they aren't having wild sex every week-end?

that you really are the "partner" & not the deluded other woman?

...........
...........

I once sold a house for a guy who had been hitting on me pretty diligently.

He had been dating one woman for a couple of years, but he told me that she was just not as "educated" as I was.

so I decided I detested him.

but I was nice & polite & stuff.

& he had told me about his ex & his 2 daughters.

The ex was living in the family home, & the girls were away at college, & this guy was living in a small apartment.

At closing, there was no mention of a divorce decree or any terms of division of property or proceeds, & the check had both names on it...

hmmmm....

cawecup...I picked up on the fuzzy math too.

I also think that he is getting some sort of attention by going over to the ex's house.

I hate to be so skeptical of this man. It's obvious that Catherine is completely invested in her relationship, but I'm not convinced that he is. He gets to lead a double life where he has two women fighting over him.

Also it strikes me as odd that they were never married! For a woman who wants to hold on to her man so much why didn't she want to marry him years ago? From what I gather in the post it sounds like she is pretty dependent on his income for her quality of life. I would think that she would have married him awhile ago just for the financial security. By saying he was never married he doesn't have to explain why there isn't a divorce agreeemnt.

Catherine, I ask you to really think long and hard about if this man is devoted to you. It's pretty easy to believe what he tells you cause that is what you really want to hear. I really hope that I am wrong and he is just a guy who is being taken advantage of.

you deserve better than the situation you are in, I wish you the ebst!

Clarification on the age thing - I did write both 17, but only SO was 17, she was 18. I keep have to write on here while I am at work, and everytime someone comes to my desk I have to minimize this, then go back to what I was writing later. I can tell by the way the sentence was worded that I more than likely got interupted in the middle of it.. or I was in too much of a rush to write out every detail.. because it is only a year difference.

See, while writing those few sentences I got one phone call and another person came over to my desk to ask something. Because obviously, I can't bring this up on the computer at home.. I don't want SO to find out I'm on here.

To clarify more - yes, BM did have her daughter (who is currently 24) when she was only 14 years old. She was 18 and he was 17 when they met, and found began to prepare for the baby on the way. Due to the way birthdays fall, they were 18 and 19 when their son was actually born. Today, BM is 38, SO is 37. 18yo turns 19 in three weeks. Hope that helps.

And I'd love to say more but I don't have time at the moment but hopefully later I can get back on here..

I agree with cawfe, sylvia, serenity... this man is at best an active participant in this whole dysfunctional melodramatic family saga. At worst, he is the primary instigator.

Step back for a minute a look at what you already know... you don't even have to believe there's a he said/she said, his side/her side... the he said part that you're getting is bad enough.

His ex is mentally/emotionally unstable, has been violent in the past towards both him and you at a minimum, has attempted suicide, and is desperately trying to hold onto the man she loves and has lived her life with. She has gone to extreme and irrational measures to do so, including manipulating their children to get him to spend time with her on a regular basis, and when she does these things--- it works! He comes and hangs out like a family, like a couple, like she wants... he **rewards** her irrational behavior. He is stringing her along-- maybe inadvertantly, maybe because he likes the attention, but there is no possible way that his actions of going over there and hanging out with the family, including her, on a regular basis, is doing anything other than giving her (and, incidentally, the boys) hope that he'll come back.

And he leaves his children to live in this environment with an unstable, suicidal mother rather than try to get custody and provide them with some stability.

Why are you so sure she is lying when she says you stole her man, but believe her when she says he never molested her daughter? You have described this irrational person willing to manipulate her children, attempt suicide, vandalize property, etc to win back her man, and she would unfortunately not by any stretch of the imagination be the first mother to take a blind eye towards her husband/boyfriend abusing her daughter-- because she wants to "hold on to her man" at all costs.

and, no, actually, it's not obvious to me why you couldn't do this on your home computer. What would be so bad if he knew you had written this (nothing here he doesn't already know)? What are you afraid will happen if he finds out?

Catherine, perhaps you are a bit numb to some of what has happened. I know you came here seeking help, and in that you are acknowledging that things are very much amiss.

I just talked to my husband about your situation to get a man's perspective on this. He told me that there is no way he would ever go over to his ex wife's on a Saturday and spend the day with her and the kids.

The reason why? He said because it is "over" between him and her. And I knew he would say this because this is how men are wired. When they are done, they are done, and particularly so when they have a new woman in their life.

And the last thing a man is going to want to do is spend one day a week, sitting in a house with the angry woman he left. They don't like to squirm and they twill avoid it like the plague.

We have three options to consider, the way I see it. The first is that it really wasn't over with her when he started with you. He may have told you it was, but she is acting exactly like a woman who has been scorned. He may have been moved out of the house, but still had one foot planted there, like he does now and led her on.

The other option is that it was over and she is a raving lunatic. If that is the case, then why isn't he doing anything to protect you from her? He tells you to ignore it and then he goes to her house every Saturday?

She's done some horrible things to you and she has besmirched your reputation. Why would he stand for that and why are you standing for it? He's trying to minimize all of this and in doing so, he is minimizing YOU.

The third option is that he keeps waltzing in and out of her life and this is making her nuts. She gets her hopes up and then he lets her down. And some men do get a huge ego boost out of having two women tied up in knots over them.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy his "golly-gee shucks" routine.

I have a friend who 15 years ago was living with a guy, he was divorced with 3 children. He decided he needed a new career ... so he was working during the day and going to school evenings... he would come home about 11:30 every night and leave at 6:30 in the morning.

My friend was working two jobs weekends included. So they rarely saw each other but after a few months of schooling he was still not bringing home any books she started to become suspicious she started snooping through his things. I remember saying if you are snooping things must be obvious but you're not seeing it. She started looking for ATM receipts in his car and basically playing Private Investigator ...

The ATM receipts were from the same ATM all the time in a town about a half hour away ... she found all kinds of evidence he wasn't going to school but couldn't prove it ... she tracked the mileage in his car she drove the same route he did to work and school for a base starting mileage started to figure out he wasn't going to school or work she would drive by his work to see if his car was there. One night she and I got in my car hunched down in the seat and followed him from the house (he would leave for school about 4 ish) we followed him for about a half hour... he pulled up to a house got out walked in the door like he lived there ... hmmm we said then he came out walking a dog...with his children. Ok my friend thinks maybe he is just visiting the kids. (Did I mention this was the same dog he told my friend they had to get rid of because the landlord said no dogs on the lease).

So that night he comes home at 11:30 she asks how was school oh good he replies. Like normal gets up and leaves for work again the next night we drive to the house at 10:30 there is his car in the driveway. Out he comes gives the woman at the door a kiss my friends yells OMG that's his ex-wife... we think oh no we are busted but he doesn't see/hear us.

A few weeks later my friend and I rent a U-Haul... while her BF is at "school" we emptied the house of all her possessions and some of his :) ... he came "home" at 11:30 to basically an empty house. Apparently he and the wife were reconcilling but he neglected to tell my friend... he had told the wife he took a 3rd shift job so he would leave the wife every night at 11:00 pm and return at 4:30 in the afternoon because he was working the two jobs.

cawfe, sounds like my ex. (my DD's father)

OMG I dont think there is a force in this world that would have prevented me from ripping him a new one... and more than likely right there infront of "ex" wife... just to make sure that she realized she was being dupped as well... Man the nerve of some people.

What a story about your friend, Cawfe! And what a skunk - he lied to both of them. Some men have NO qualms about doing this to women at all.

I remember a young woman I used to work with. She started to have an affair with a married and somewhat older and somewhat prominent man who lived in a city an hour away from the city we lived in. This gal "Susie" was very open about her affair at work. She told us his marriage was "over", and that he told her his wife was a cold-fish and they didn't even sleep together anymore.

The guy, "Peter" also had the audacity to come into our office to see her several times and he sent her roses at work, signed love "Peter". I knew him on sight and I also knew what his wife looked like as I'd see her at a business function before.

So, this girl thinks "Peter" is just smitten with her. He's coming to her apartment all the time to see her and he was spending the night, too, and they she bragged that they were making "plans" for their future. She was convinced he was ready to leave his wife and marry her.

One weekend day, I was driving down a street in the downtown area of my city and I see "Peter". He is walking down the street with his wife. My mouth fell open. They looked like lovebirds and they were laughing and holding hands and it is quite obvious they were very much in love. From the way his wife was behaving, it was very obvious she had no clue he was cheating on her.

This whole thing made me sick. I had a whole lot more sympathy for the wife than I did for the girl I worked with. She was TOW and she knew he was married. I'm sure he lied to her but she thought it was ok to carry on an affair with a married man just because he told her his marriage was "over".

On Monday morning I went to work and casually asked her if she'd seen "Peter" over the weekend. She said "oh, no, he had a business trip".

I said, "oh no he didn't". I told her that he'd been in our city that weekend with his wife and I told her what I saw and told her "if he tells you his marriage is over, he is an absolute liar". I told her they looked like they were on their honeymoon.

She went nuts. She called the wife and told her she was TOW and then the wife went nuts. The wife found out where "Susie" worked and the wife called the owner of our company and before the week was over, "Susie" had lost her job. The wife then called "Susie" and threatened to sue her for allienation of affection. "Susie" moved to a different state soon after and no one ever heard from her again.

What was amazing is that the wife stuck with him. They are still married and this was 28 years ago, so at least he landed on his feet. I don't know what ever happened to "Susie", but I surmise she was more careful going forward.

I can't understand a women staying with her husband after that kind of betrayal. Maybe it is just me but there would just be no way for me to get past it. Even if I thought I could forgive him...every time he left the house I would wonder where he was going if he was telling me the truth. I would drive myself crazy.... there would just be no way for me to feel secure in that relationship... ever again. I would have tossed him out on his butt way before I ever got her fired. He is the one that made a commitment to me...lied to me ...threw out everything we or I held so dear... and made a mockery out our "love". To each there own I suppose.

i knew a friend of a friend who dated a guy for several months, very much in love. then all of a sudden he dissapeared. when a friend went to his house, his wife opened the door. to make a story short it turned out that he was married but during those months his wife was first in the hospital with pregnancy complications and then she was at her parents out of town on a bed-rest because they are retired and could help her etc . Wife was 8 months pregnant and had no clue. the girl was so devstated and embarassed, i remember she cut his tires lol i can't believe how can people come up with such a lie. It is funny how he hid all feminine stuff in his house so girlfriend would not know he was married all along.

I wasn't married but my BF at the time lived with me for about a year. I was pregnant with my daughter when he decided to go work out of town with his brothers (in construction) so he could provide better for us (at least that was his excuse) and he would come stay with me on most of the weekends. Then, I got an unusually large telephone bill (he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box or he didn't care if I found out) and I called the out of state number that there were dozens of calls to. A girl answered and I asked her who she was. She told me she was his girlfriend and was expecting his child. Hmmm, I was expecting his child. She said he had been staying with her at his brothers while he was doing construction but had just moved out of state to her Aunts house. She told me he was going to marry her, hmmm he had just proposed to me. I talked to her a few more times, learned that she had asked him to buy her some new shoes because she had none and her feet hurt, hmmm, he had just recently asked me what size shoe I wear... I had just bought myself new tennis shoes. I assume he was going to send her my new shoes, but I wear 7, she wears 9. There are just some real slime balls out there.

Oh yeah, after being gone for the last 17 years, (married to his current wife), he had the nerve to tell me "you didn't wait for me?" (when he found out I just got married). I thought he was joking around and then he asked me if I was happy and told me he isn't happy in his marriage. He told me that he wanted to come to CA to see his daughter but couldn't because his wife is very jealous and thinks I am trying to get back with him. Then, she called me a couple of weeks later because I sent her an email to reassure her that I was happily married & just want him to see his daughter. She told me that she has been trying to get him to see his kids for years and he keeps telling her that she will be upset if he does that but she says she won't. He just hasn't grown up and I think he would be delighted if two women were fighting over him. When he was 20, he was charismatic, but at 40, it's just plain pathetic.

hahah he wanted to send your shoes to the other girl? this is the funniest thing i heard. what an idiot. hahah some people have no shame...

I have one ... my bf of 15 years .... quit smoking and because I still smoked he would come home from work and shower and go out "walking and clear his head" because I was still smoking so he needed to get out of the house ...

I thought it was odd but we were at a point in our relationship I really could have cared less if he was in the house or out galavanting....

About a month later one night after dinner he said "I think I should find another place to live" ok long drawn out discussion he was seeing someone and was hanging out with her when he was supposedly clearing his head.

We split amicably ... yes there were hurt feelings etc... but I "joked" for months later ... I didn't know whether to send the new GF a "thank you card or a sympathy card".

He is still with the same girl 8 years later.

"When he was 20, he was charismatic, but at 40, it's just plain pathetic."

A friend told me that her elderly, widowed mother, who has Alzheimer's, has a "boyfriend" who lives in her home, cashes her Social Security checks, etc.

& she won't listen to reason, & it's taking a long time to go through the legal process to gain conservatorship & protect her assets from this guy, who evidently has a looong history of living off women.

Now that he's in his fifties, he doesn't have that big a market, so he's preying on an elderly woman with Alzheimer's.

My friend was so upset one day that she blurted out to her husband that her mother's boyfriend "is just a gigolo".

& her husband replied,

"Nah, he's so old he's lost his jiggle. He's just low."

You guys are cracking me up! Ima - I think your story about the shoes is the best I've heard.

I dated a guy for eight years, about 15 years ago. One night I was over at his house. I parked my car nearest the house in the driveway and he parked his car behind my car.

The next morning I went out to my car and someone had carved "FU" but it was spelled out in huge across the hood of my brand new car. BF came down and I told him what happened and he went out and looked at my car, came back inside and said "I'll pay for it".

By this time, I am on the phone with 911 and bf is upset with me for calling the cops and keeps saying "I'll pay for it". And I'm wondering why he wants so badly to pay for this - it is not his fault and that is so sweet of him. And then I'm thinking, jeez, he is so cheap. Why, all of a sudden is he being so generous?

Two cops come and we are standing there looking at my car and the one cop clears his throat and says "a kid didn't do this". He proceeds to tell me that kids will vandalize the car nearest the street, not the one nearest the house. He tells me that I was obviously the target of someone's anger. And I am wondering out loud who?

The cop clears his throat again and says "perhaps another woman that your boyfriend is seeing? BF's face was bright red and he was acting really strange. I knew the cop was right but I let bf pay for the damage and then I broke up with him.

After about three months, the old bf shows up at my door with his head hanging low and he wants my forgiveness and asks me to marry him. I was speechless.

He then actually made a confession. He said that he did cheat on me several times when we dated but he would never do it again.

Darn right he never cheated on me again. I wouldn't take him back.

"he lost his jigle" hahahah oh that's too funny.

I thought my situation with my kids Biomom could be tuff sometimes. Obviously it could always be worse. HAHAHA. No really...it's kindof sad. We humans do horrible things to each other sometimes. To the original poster of this Subject Catherine22, I'm sorry. I hope things get better but it sounds to me like they probably won't. I will say it must be really hard catching it from the whole family. My bonus kids love me and since the seperation happened when they were young they have grown up with me around. I can't imagine how you must feel not having any real support. If the relationship is causing you more grief than joy it may be time to make like Dorothy and move it on down the road. I asked myself that question many times when I first started seeing my love and was dealing with the Biomom who was having serious issues dealing with the fact that her childrens father had moved on. There were many times I had to stop and say "Self...Is this worth it?" The answer was yes everytime. I fell in love with him and his babies. They ARE my family. (I can't have biological children) Make sure it's worth it for you sweetheart. Good luck.