Lamom-

I realize your motivation here is your son. I think you need to somehow tell DS something that is age appropriate about the family disconnect. I don't know what you could possibly tell him (big age difference makes it hard perhaps), but I remember what your DH's Ex said to you during the holidays on behalf of "her family". They will receive your son with the same open arms as you. They don't really care for him and I think he will be more hurt by their actions and rejection than he will be by whatever delicate truths your provide.

We're in a sort-of similar situation, and Hubby has a 10-year old grand-daughter as well as a 14 year old son. He spends his 'parenting time' with his son, and is a wonderful father to him. But admittedly, as Grandpas go, he falls short in the time and attention category.

In our case, though we weren't delighted to hear of SGD's pending arrival (Mom was 19 and unmarried) -- both Mom (SD29) and Dad(29) have stepped up and become responsible and self-supporting. So our initial life-choices disapproval has abated.

I suspect most parents raising young children (no matter what the yours mine or ours circumstances) don't have a lot of extra attention for other young children. Raising kids is a full-time job; and I equate grandchildren to volunteer work. Rewarding. Important. Fulfilling. But the kind of thing you do with your spare time...

I don't imagine there's an easy solution to this...

I have to agree with gerina.

If your hand in it is the reason he has ANY involvement with them, then there really isn't anything YOU can do about it. I struggled through a similar frustration (and many of us do) because my SD's mom left and has not been the mom SD seems to crave... gets no attention and shuffled around when she is inconvenient to her mother. I have tried to facilitate a better relationship between SD and her mother.. I bought her paper to write letters... I took her shopping for gifts for her mother... I provided my cell phone so she could call her mom back when her mom said to call at a time when DH was at work... Well, no good deed goes unpunished. BM resented my 'interference' even though my intention was for SD's best interest. As BM resented me, SD also jumped on board with her mom and I became the 'bad guy'.

Sometimes, you have to walk away and let people clean their own mess. If your DH chooses to not have a relationship with his children/grandchildren, there is really NOTHING 'you' can do about it, except maybe feel bad for his grandchildren. If they do not want a relationship with you or your son, you cannot force that on them. It's their loss and gerina is right that their actions and rejection will be more harmful than not having a relationship at all... all you need to do is be honest (as you can) with your son. As I wrote before (not sure what thread it was in) but my kids wanted their dad to see them, he chose not to, and if I had forced the issue by dragging him into court and getting an order for him to take our child, I'm pretty sure he would have not shown up for visitation (subjecting the child to further rejection) or perhaps the child may have been subjected to weekends with a guy that resented having to take his child and therefore may not have been treated in a loving, caring way. Sometimes, the best thing for someone is to be kept away from diseased or toxic people. Adults that openly resent or are jealous of a 7 year old are not mentally healthy people. Their anger at their father is being misplaced and your son is the one paying the price.

"DH disapproves of the very existence of these kids because of how they came along."

I'd slap the snot out of a husband or partner who had the unmitigated ego to feel entitled to "disapprove" of anybody's existence-
let alone the existence of an innocent child who had the misfortune to have been born into the egotist's messed-up, angry family.

& I'd bet that this "father/grandfather" dished out the same disapproval on his own children from the time they were children themselves.

The kind of under-achieving, passive lifestyle you describe (public assistance, doesn't drive, dependence, etc) happens to kids who grow up in a disapproving, punitive & demanding environment in which they can't do anything right:
if they don't do it, they should have, but if they do it, they shouldn't have.

These adult children are venting *rage*;
not just anger, this is seeing-red, seething, frothing *rage* (when I was mad at my father, I might have called him a bad name, but I wouldn't have coached a child to try to get my father arrested!).

Parents sometimes say things like, "I just don't know where she gets it..." if "she" is doing something destructive, like vandalism or coaching her child to get granddad arrested, or self-destructive, like cutting herself, but there *is* a reason;
people don't just blossom into horrible disfunctional behaviors all by themselves.

& now it's extended to another generation:
your husband's grandson is a messed-up little boy, & my prediction is that he'll stay that way because, no matter what kind of therapy or counselling he gets, it will *never* overcome the boiling anger & passive-aggressive stuff that goes on at home.

You might take a step back & take a detached, skeptical look at your husband's attitude.

There's a reason that one child is so enraged that he coached his son to try to get his father arrested & that the other child is deflecting her anger & all kinds of blame onto you & your son.

another thought-

living in this kind of pressure cooker creates tremendous stress, & your son has had cancer already.

It seems like I've said this a lot lately, but you need to consider the quality of your life & the quality of your son's life.

I'm sending my best thoughts for your son's continued good health, & for your own happiness & peace of mind.

Sylvia,

Thanks but I think you've got my drama mixed up with someone else's. No one has had a child call the police on a parent or grandparent in our drama, yet. And there hasn't been any cutting. Unless you are giving examples from another poster....

I'm sorry for how I put my feeling of DH's disapproval of his grandkids. His feelings about them are all mixed up with his disapproving feelings about how his oldest son is living generally. Feeling that ok, the first grandkid was an accident but not the second. And that his eldest son has not stepped up his responsibility level for either of them although he has stayed in an ongoing family structure for them, that can't be denied.

I have taken a detached view of my husband's attitude. I believe that he and his ex-wife are the BIGGEST contributors to SS30's ongoing problems. I do feel that he is not right is how he is treating his grandkids. And I am able to set aside the lousy treatment I have received from them all to see that. And I can see that his detachment or disdain is a big part of the interfamily jealousies and bad feelings affecting my son and me.

What to do if anything? Sounds like nothing and it's really not in my hands.

"Seven years old. Scared us by telling the server at the restaurant that he wasn't with us as in these people are kidnapping me!"

Cutting was an example of self-destructive behavior whose origins people often "can't imagine".
like not working, not being able to drive.

I think you're right;
this is a big ugly situation that takes up all their time & energy, & you aren't big enough, nobody is, to fix it;
all you'll do is get pulled into the whirlwind.

And what's more she and they feel they have the right to be jealous! I believe they feel that if DS7 weren't around than DH would be the grandfather he should be. Who knows?

lamom, I may be wrong but based on your past posts I suspect that you are misinterpreting a bit. I suspect it is not so much that your skids are jealous of your son, but they are RESENTFUL towards their father. And since their primary relationship with your family is with their father, that unfortunately affects their relationships with you and your son. And the thing is, anything you do to try to encourage or facilitate their relationship with your husband (their father) CAN NOT help, because it's surely obvious to them that the overtures are coming from you, not him.

I'm sure they think that I personally have a hand in why DH is not involved with his oldest son's life and family. Yeah, my hand in is the reason he has ANY involvement with them although they won't see that. I bet they do see that. I bet they see it very very clearly. And they resent it--not resent you, personally, but resent the fact that the only reason their father has involvement in their lives is because someone else is pushing him to. Wouldn't you resent it, if you knew the only thing making one of your parents pay any attention to you was that their new spouse-or anyone else for that matter- was making them do it?

Sylvia, I see what you mean. When SGS9, then 7, told the restaurant people he wasn't related to us (!) we did some quick explaining because these days child abductions are no joke!

Maybe you are right on why my SS30 hasn't "grown up" meaning being able to get and hold a job, drive a car regularly, and so on due to rough, negative parenting. SD told me that she felt DH and BM were unqualified, young parents who worked all the time. That she was "used" to babysit her brother. And that the big difference in DS7's childhood vs theirs is me.

Quirk, interesting perspective. That the hostility is really resentment towards their father, DH. They definitely see my hand in things, holidays, parties, gifts, activities - how can they not? BM confronted me about it about a month ago, see my post on that. I'm not guessing about the jealousy as they themselves, specifically SD said exactly that to me, that SS and his kids, SGKIDS, are jealous of my son and have a right to feel that way since DH didn't do "anything" for SS as a kid. Even she, SD, the most even keeled of the group expresses some resentment/dismay/? over the kind of dad DH is with DS7 versus when he was raising her with BM.

For all of my anger, hurt feelings and kvetching over my skids and their treatment of me and my son, I do feel that DH contributes to the problems. He should do more with and for those grandkids if for no other reason than they really need a lot of help. And it would smooth the waters for us.

If like Quirk says, the real issue is their resentment of DH vs plain anathema to me or jealousy of DS then there is nothing I can do. I feel very detached from SS30, his gf now especially after BM's lecture about "her family" (see other thread) but that doesn't mean I don't care at least about the grandkids including the one with the problems. I was the one who did the footwork and got him in to therapy for Jiminy's sake! I called around, found a pediatric psychiatrist who would accept their insurance and set up the first session. Yes, you can call it codependency if you want, someone had to get it done!!! The boy was 7 and his father, SS then 28, didn't want him living at home anymore and was planning to send him away to live. Seven years old at the time. Giving his GF ultimatums like if SGS doesn't go I will. DH didn't help at all, BM and SD transported him while SS and babymama attended a few sessions. When taking him to therapy got to be too much for BM, the grandmother, and in fairness she did a lot of chauferring for about a year driving him from the burbs to the city for sessions, they discontinued therapy! The therapist even offered to come to their home in the burbs but they dropped out. The irony was if I ever dared to ask what was happening in SGS's therapy that I arranged I got short "he's fine" combined with hard looks as the answer.

Now they talk out of both sides of their mouths about him, one one side about how well he's doing in school, learning to ride a bike and so on, the other about how he has been fighting, lying and so on. He really needs another male figure e.g DH, his grandfather, but all the other negative dynamics are in the way.

SD and I remain friendly, in fact she kept DS7 for us one weekend recently while we went out of town. That was really positive.

I am 100% agree with sylviatexas. I said it before that no one grows up to be like these children and grandchildren for no reason. They were raised this way by their parents or by their parents' lack of involvement. You said it before your DH was not a good father and now he blames his kids for how they are and how they raise their own kids. But that's all they know. I would take a hard look at a man who is a bad parent/grandparent before starting my own family with him, but that's too late. Now saying all that it is nothing you can do, I would just stop worrying and back off from them all.

As about him not approving because his grandson is accidental. It is strange. I never heard of anyone feeling any different about their grandkids if they were accidental or not. If his grandson is so awful i agree taking him on family trips is unnecessary, but seeing him one on one would be acceptable. Maybe your DH should do that...

Lamom, I agree with a lot of what Quirk said. I think things can be interpreted differently. When SD mentioned jealousy of your son, I don't think she means they are directly jealous of *him* I think they are jealous of the situation and probably resentful. I think it must be very hard to have a front row seat in watching your father be a better parent.....ontop of still shabby treatment of the kids/grandchildren.

As I've read your posts I noticed a disconnect between your interpretation of events and your feelings. Especially in regards to your SD. By all accounts she has taken the high road but she is slammed for it or not being "equal" in regards to the resources she gives to her nephews vs. your son. I think you've over looked the fact that she doesn't have to do any of it but you're looking for her to behave in a way that is unnatural according to the family values your husband has instilled. In fact, she has gone above and beyond.

I think it would be a much different family if your husband had at some point owned up to the kids about what happened when they were younger and started behaving towards them differently at this time. But with the same shabby treatment, I imagine it would be hard for the most well adjusted person in the world to handle your family with grace at all times.

I do think there are things you can do, I think you can readjust some of your perspectives and in return, I think it would blend over to your husband as well. I remember your thread about the party your SD threw for one of the younger kids but she was worried about a medical device and your son....in that situation posters advised your husband going to stay at the party (win/win, DH spends time with his daughter and son, and son gets to stay at the party.) But instead he just went to pick up your son and you were upset with SD. I think if you switched some of your focus over to what you CAN control it would help you and in return, help your husband.

I also think counseling might not be a bad idea. I don't think this is an issue that will simply go away one day. I also don't think this is something you will personally find acceptance with the situation as-is. (As many people wouldn't)

Grandpa does not spend time with his grandkids yet SD is expected to do things with her brother. It seems somewhat double standard.

since the very beginning I see SD doing way more than plenty of other people would do. I think she goes above and beyond and is expected to do even more? i agree SS is a loser, but SD does more than anyone I heard of. I am under impression that she is single, I would expect her to be taking care of her own life.

My DD is a nice woman and is involved with her two younger brothers, she treats them like brothers despite big age difference. But I cannot imagine her opening college funds for them, that's their parents job. And who has the extra money?

I just think your expectations are way out there. I love my brother and my niece and nephew, but I don't do that much for them unless it is an emergency because I can barely manage with my own life. I come home from work I am half dead. Who has the energy? If they would be in need then i would do more but other than that...I don't even want to talk to anyone when i come home.

So if she does have time or energy then she spends more of it on the kids who has no one else, like their parents are messed up, grandpa is absent, so she is trying to compensate. Then she does some things for your DS. It seems like a lot to me, maybe i am wrong. But really who has the time..

Wow. Yes, I can readjust my perspectives. But let me just correct a couple of things first:

1. I have never said DH was a bad father the first time around. SD said it. I was not in his life then and only know what she says about it. I haven't elaborated here on the things I know DH did right for his older children which is a lot. SD would not have her college or law degrees without his help, emotional and financial and SS probably wouldn't have even finished high school and I know I've posted about that. DH is definitely a lot older now, more stable and that is part of why things are different for our son together.

2. DH's ambivalence towards his grandchildren is a direct reflection of his feeling that his oldest son, now 30, is not living as an adult and therefore should not have had kids. The first was an accident but not the second. Of course, if the real point is that how the grandkids got here doesn't matter anymore, they ARE here and need the love and support of their grandfather you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Hence this thread.

2. I only "slam" my SD when she does something overtly mean or unfair to DS. Or me of course and she's had her moments. Yes, I would love for her to treat DS equally to her nephews and other little cousins. And yes, I know she doesn't have to do anything at all. And I've noted that she is the nicest, goes the longest way and is the most open of the clan. On the medical device, the catheter situation at the pool party, I think it's impossible for anyone to understand how her not wanting responsibility in that situation felt. She and SS shunned DS when he was sick, it's just something you have to experience I guess.

3. Yes, I should have looked more closely at what kind of parent DH was before I married him. And also what kind of kids he had before I became related to them. Although he's pretty good with DS which is part of the skids problem.

Anyway, the point of this thread was to get advice or renewed perspective on how to positively energize the relationship between DH, his first kids and grandkids. LOL.

YOU can't and not your problem...

They resent you and anything you do for them and if he does anything for them they think its coming from you ... so again pointless.

You did not cause their relationship to break you cannot fix it.

--"But now, the smoke has cleared and even though I don't particularly want much of a relationship with them, I know DS does..."--

This may be the portion of the situation that you can work on, the relationship between DS and the SGKs. Some supervised and limited interaction between the young children. You don't need DH or adult SKs for this part. An occasional playdate, simple afternoon outing, these are things you and DS can do to foster the bonds between the young children and you.

The young kids are not to blame for who or what their parents are or for what tangled emotions that wrap up the elders lifes. These little ones right now don't care who might have set up funds for college, or that one of the parents went on a gambling trip instead of bringing them by to visit. That is adult stuff, the young ones don't know or care about all those messed up adult things.

Kids are not responsible for what adults say, do, think, or feel.

You've stated before you won't take SGS9 by yourself anymore (given his past behavior control issues that's understandable), but you're friendly enough with SD. You might try going for the small things. Invite SD to do a simple afternoon with just the young kids (she can help you with the kids). Little steps, keeping open relationship between the young children and giving SD some interaction with her 1/2 sibling.

You can't control or fix DH and/or SS, you can't change what has happened in the past. About all you can do is try and see that feelings/bonds and memories are made now between the younger kids. If your son wants that relationship with his extended family (his nephews) that's the only one I can see you being a part of without all the hard feelings and resentment that swirls around the DH and his older kids.

My oldest daughter (DD29) is married to the biggest horse's behind I've ever known, and while I have next to nothing to do with SIL it does not stop me from having a relationship with my GS7 and being sure my little daughter gets a chance to have a relationship with GS7.

I agree with justmetoo, and not just wrt SGS but also with SD. Again, you can't push her to mend her relationship with her father, but if you allow/encourage her to have contact with your son, without trying to then throw your husband into the mix, you might see some progress. If every time things get friendly between you/your son and her, you then try to set up "family" outings that push her into contact w/ DH, that only makes it harder and harder to separate her relationship w/ her little brother from that w/ her dad.

lamom:
Why do you feel the need to "fix and save" people or situations?

You and your husband have a 7yr old son together - shouldn't your energy be spent embracing your family (which is ONLY the 3 of you.)

If your husband chooses to be detached from his kids and grandkids, that's HIS CHOICE. It's not your job to fix the brokenness of those relationships.

The sooner you truly believe the onus is not on you, the less drama you will have in your life ... the happier you, your husband and son will be.

I still think your expectations are unreasonable and unrealistic. SD is a single woman with no children. Yes she has a little brother but how much should she expected to do for him/with him? Just accept that she is in her 30s and has to deal with her own stuff. As about SS and his kids, if relationship is not working then let it go, it is what it is. They are who they are. But lighten up with SD, seriously maybe you feel she does not do enough (like what?) but believe me she does more than anyone else would do. She is resentful about her father, it is what it is, shouldn't bother you, let it be, let them feel what they feel. Their life, their family, their relationship. I think your son needs your attention and energy. Don't waste it.

Thanks all, I really reflected on the comments. On my SD's efforts I recognize that she is extending herself and trying very hard.

Also, I think the points about DH being a better grandpa are really good ones. I can't make him. But I can get the little kids together. I called SS30's GF today and invited SGS9 over to spend some of next weekend with us. I did that AFTER discussing it with DH to make sure he would be involved with spending time with his grandson. and that I wouldn't be on my own. She seemed very pleased.

So, we'll see what happens.

good luck! hope everyone will have a good time, you are a good person and doing what you feel is right,

Thx FD. But let's keep that lamp at the ready....

well you might want to avoid restaurants (recall kidnapping story with SS's son) and expensive landscape lights. Sorry, not funny, but couldn't resist. Keep him at home, away from the windows (in case he starts screaming "help" for no reason. oh my. I know it will be OK. DS will have fun.

I'd slap the snot out of a husband or partner who had the unmitigated ego to feel entitled to "disapprove" of anybody's existence-

Amen. MY sentiments exactly.

pinkhill and sylvia, "I'd slap the snot out of a husband or partner who had the unmitigated ego to feel entitled to "disapprove" of anybody's existence"

I think I worded my Dh's feelings about his grandkids poorly. He is not happy that SS30 has kids that he can't support especially after showing he couldn't support the first child who came along accidentally then had a second child that he also can't support. Not that he disapproves of the children's existence or wishes they weren't here.

He may not be a very involved grandfather but he doesn't disappove of the existence of those kids. Just of their parents choice in having them without being ready to raise them emotionally or financially. BM has practically bankrupted herself supporting SS30, his GF/babymama and those kids.

I hope that makes more sense.

I think it's really great that you're open to other perspectives, Lamom. And I think the changes you make will be rewarding.

"DH disapproves of the very existence of these kids"

Ok, so first I'm confusing you with someone else because you never said the child had been coached to do something that could have gotten your husband arrested...
but then I copied & pasted your own words.

& now you "worded your husband's feelings poorly".

so I'm pasting your own words again.

I think your first post was accurate, but you didn't realize that you were revealing your husband's pettiness & meanness, & now you're backtracking to try to cover for him.

enabling.

I heartily wish your child & your husband's children & grandchildren the best of luck.

SylviaTexas,

You have misunderstood even if you are quoting me through cutting and pasting. SGS9's parents, SS and GF, coached him to order Room Service on the road trip to Big Sur we took him on since it was his 1st trip involving hotels, they did NOT coach him to tell the staff that he was being kidnapped. Why would they do that? They want their son MORE involved with DH not the other way around. The boy, then 7, did that on his own. They were thrilled that we took him on that trip. I don't think that highly of SS30 or GF/babymama but I don't think his parents had a hand in it. They just aren't that warped. I mentioned it as an example of the boy's emotional problems and the challenge of being around him. I could fill this board with stories about this boy and his issues starting at age 2-2 1/2 at Head Start. Did you cut and paste the part about the $500 worth of landscaping lights the kid destroyed that we paid for, unreimbursed, on that trip because it was time for dinner? The same dinner he told the waiter he wasn't related to us?! His brother, SGS3, is just a normal, busy toddler who is very sweet.

The references you made to cutting are not part of my situation at all. That's why I think you have some of the facts mixed up with someone else's story. I've got plenty of drama but I don't know where you got the idea that any of my players has been doing cutting assuming that you mean self-mutilation cutting. Not this crew.

On the comment about DH disapproving of the kids existence,DH believes his eldest son is not in the position to raise kids or to keep having them. The idea that I am enabling him or covering for him is offtrack. Enablers cover and I've been confronting and have a lot of lumps from it courtesy of his kids, ExWife, grandkids and him.

Sorry that you have misunderstood. If your larger point is that DH should be a bigger man, love and embrace his grandkids despite their parents, I have said repeatedly, I agree. There is already a lot in the pot so please don't add. I value the opinions here, that's why I keep coming back.

SGS9 is spending part of this weekend with us for the first time in over a year to year and a half. I am picking him up after school today from the far out burbs and bringing him home. DS7 will be at an afterschool playdate while I am driving just to keep things simple. DH will take him home Sunday before church.

DH has committed to spending time with the boys, taking them to the park, possibly Disneyland. I think Disneyland is going overboard but hey, I'm just happy he wants to take them somewhere together HIMSELF. If the weather is nice it just may be the beach for bikes and volleyball.

Planning this little visit has put me back in touch with SS30 and GF/babymama. It's weird talking to them now but the conversations have stayed on the logistics of this visit. GF/babymama told me that BM said "how nice of LAmom to take him etc etc." Blech! Both parents asked me if other kids will be around as they know we often have playdates with a bunch of kids but to keep things simple I'm not planning that. SGS9 has already asked how many kids will be at our house. Sigh, just you and DS7 this time. We have a long way to go before any more parties.

SGS9 has just been put on a three week detention at school for fighting, again. Poor kid is so troubled. DH and I discussed and decided that it is for SS to discipline his child in whatever way and that we would just play the indulgent grandparents. I've laid in some treats I know SGS9 likes. I plan to play it light and loose. DH will be at the helm for whatever activities not me. However, all have agreed that if there are ANY problems, SGS9 goes right back home.

A separate but interesting development, SD36's high paying job is at major risk and she may be getting a pink slip as early as Monday through no fault of her own. We had a nice talk yesterday and she may go to work for DH as early as next week. My idea and they both like it. I know, I know, when will I learn? If she works for DH I will talk to her everyday practically and start seeing her often as I will be training her on DH's business needs. Hmmm...for the good? Good for her, she needs the work, good for DH, he needs the help, good for me and DS7 as we will start seeing her a lot. She's been the nicest to us so I was glad to help her out this time.
Interestingly she volunteered that BM is going to help her financially for the first time in her life! She said that BM, SS and his crew are going to have to wean themselves off of her support, I just listened without comment. She doesn't even want to see SGS9, her nephew, during his stay this weekend since it usually means clothes buying, video buying, restaurant going gimme gimme. Wow. She lives less than 10 minutes away but said "drive the long way around with him."

Wish us luck.

"However, all have agreed that if there are ANY problems, SGS9 goes right back home. "

Do you think SGS9 has the self-control to make that even remotely possible?

That sounds like a lot of fun, Lamom. Lets hope SG keeps it together.

And that was very nice of you concerning your SD.

All,

We are on Day Two of the SGS9 weekend visit. First weekend overnight in a long time. He's been pretty good, has only had one time out so far and is clearly on his best behavior. He eats like a lumberjack but I was prepared for that. Only one incident, part accident part his fault...another one of DS7's friends, 8, came over to play and SGS9 threatened to push him over the retaining wall and down the hill. I think SGS9 was joking but the other little boy wasn't and popped him in the eye! DS7 came to get me, by the time I came it was all over. SGS9's eye is a little swollen and he'll be going home with a black eye I think. I made him call GF/babymama, his mother on the speaker phone to explain it himself. SGS9 is already on detention at school for fighting so it won't be pretty when he gets home. They asked where I was during the altercation and I just looked at DH and shrugged. Frankly, DS7, DH and I think some good old fashioned frontier/playground justice was dispensed from an 8 year old to a 9 year old in need of same. I just make the ice packs !!

Meanwhile, DH took the whole crew to the movies and pizza. They all made up just enough to go. Yuk Yuk, like I said, we are the indulgent grandparents this weekend.