I still dont understand your point, -- but

1. No my X, as far as I know, never mentioned to DD he cheated on me.

2. Even if he did, it wouldnt be her fault, and I would still love her.

Although my situation is nothing similar to the one here, if my stepdaughter doesn't want me to be there when she sees her dad. I am so fine with that!

And, I won't stand in the way of it. HEY go for it.

Only problem we have is that my husband is blind, so he needs me to drive him to where he needs to go. So while you don't want to see me, where is it you think I should go, and who is going to pay for it?

Your choice girlfriend, not mine, but I am sure not going to pay hard cash for what is your choice.

Now what?

My SD10's deceased mom's parents, her grandparents are divorced. Grandpa married the woman that he cheated with on his wife. It is my understanding that he was and still may be quite the ladies man. His current wife may not be the first woman that he cheated with and it is my suspicion that he may not be faithful to her either. ( she and I have become friends ) That history being stated.....Grandpa and Step Grandma and bio Grandma all get together and are friends. They spend time all together as a family, children, grandchildren all together. They even lend their homes to one another when they travel. I see pictures of them together...( the wife and ex wife ) and they are smiling with their arms around each other. The ex wife knows that the current wife was the other woman.

They have chosen to do this so that they could all share in their children's and grand children's lives together without anyone missing out.....I don't know how they manage it but they do.

My SD10's mom HATED her step mom for being the other woman. She never seemed to blame her dad though.

If Colleen can not distinguish a parent sharing innapropriate details with a child and a parent having an affiar with a grown woman who knows he is married, I sure hope she doesnt come in contact wiht anyone I care about.

kkny,

Baloney! Colleen is absolutely correct! And that's not MY opinion either, but that of the psychiatric profession as a whole. I really wish you would would look up terminology before you go making things up. Here's the definition of the term, "emotional incest"

"The term emotional incest is most often used to describe family dynamics where a child feels responsible for a parents emotional well-being  often becoming like a pseudo-spouse to that parent in terms of the type of emotional relationship that is present. In these situations, the parent is generally not able to take responsibility for his/her emotions or seek emotional support from other adults. The child may then feel that he/he is to blame or has the power to influence whether or not the parent is happy or sad, calm or angry  and the child may also be burdened with having to be the listening ear for that parent about situations, thoughts, and feelings the parent is experiencing that should really be for another adultÂs ears only.

kkny, again, if you in dire need of further clarification of this term, please let me know and I will elaborate, with countless examples once again.

But why don't you try "googling" the term for yourself. That would be a nice change.

That said however, we don't know exactly WHEN it is that the OP found out about her father's extramarital affairs.

Disengaging,

The difference is as follows. What dad did in either example is wrong wrong wrong. What the other woman did was wrong too (assuming she knew dad to be married). THE CHILD DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG AND SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED TO THE OTHER WOMAN.

I will say, though, empathy goes both ways. It does sound from what you wrote that you really have forgiven him for the affairs and really want to keep a good relationship with him. You are definitely allowed to be upset and hurt, but it doesn't hurt to soemtimes try to see it from his eyes, too. What explains behavior that seems so unreasonable, so clueless about your feelings? My guess is that he is actually quite afraid that there is no real way (at least that he knows of) to reconcile the two situations. This is along the lines of what quirk wrote about it being in many ways a not-fully-resolvable situation, which is what makes it so hard. What many people do (especially men, it seems) is dig their heels in stubbornly about something when they don't know how to find any other solution. I'm sure your Dad is all-too-aware of his own feelings of guilt and is probably terribly afraid that no matter what you will never accept his new marriage and doesn't know how to deal with it.

And you DON'T have to accept the new marriage, but if you want a good relationship with him, you have to accept HIM. Which I know you do. The problem is it's going to be interpreted (most likely with plenty of input from wife) that you don't accept *him* BECAUSE you don't accept *her*, and h/they will pull the "we're one unit" card until you want to throw up. (It's already happening that way, as his refusal of your dinner invite shows.) My speech to him would be this:

"I understand you're married and I care about your happiness and I know that many people view the process of getting married as metaphorically 'becoming one unit'. And that can serve its purpose and be very romantic and all of that. But you ARE, in fact, separate people. And you don't have to take that literally in every single circumstance. It's not even really possible to, anyway. Facts are you have already had separate experiences, and continue to do so. You have a child by a former marriage ---me--- and I continue to exist in your life. I dare say your new wife does not feel so "one unit" with you as to feel that I am, therefore, her daughter. I dare say she doesn't feel so "one unit" with you that she wants to invite you to every single outing she makes shopping with the girls. If you insist on buying into the idea that you can't see your own daughter (and whoever else) without her being present, that is your choice. But that is YOU and SHE who would be making that choice. My choice would be to not see her every single time I see you. Mainly because this is a hugely awkward and uncomfortable situation for me and I just plain need time to adjust and to not feel like I am the interloper in my own family and in need of being patrolled. I need to feel that I have not lost all opportunity to have a real conversation with my Dad without a bodyguard present. The very fact that I want to maintain our good relationship should prove to you that *I* at least am capable of separating my feelings about your *actions* and your *wife* from my feelings about you as my Dad. You and she AREN'T the same person, and I can love you dearly without even liking her. Does she like me? If not, I hope you can love her regardless. *I* have unconditional love for you, no matter what I think of your wife and no matter what she thinks of me. And I hope you have unconditional love for me and that you won't make your feelings for me as your daughter conditional upon whether I agree to let your wife chaperone all of our visits. Call me when you'd like to meet for lunch, Dad."

He said "we'll see" to lunch, which in his language pretty much means No. I asked him that after he denied me dinner. The vibe I got from the conversation is that because I'm not willing to include his wife, he's not willing to see me.

I have not been to his house since May 2008, seen him since October 2008 and talk to him about once every two weeks when he is at work. He lives 5 miles from my apartment.

Perhaps in my original post I shouldn't have been as specific (coming to my house or dinner). At this point, he is pretty much cutting me off completely because I am cutting off his wife. That is what I want to know: is he being unreasonable?

A very big qualified YES!

Look at your relationship with your dad. And even more importantly why do you hate this woman so much other than that she is such a low life compared to you. You are so much better than she is and your father picked HER.

That said however, we don't know exactly WHEN it is that the OP found out about her father's extramarital affairs.

Opps! Wait, I have to take that back! Guess I didn't read closely enough where the OP stated that her dad told her BEFORE he even told her mom. Yup! It's pretty inappropriate to tell that to his daughter--INSTEAD of his wife, and that's turning his daughter into a "pseudo-spouse", or the other woman, and that's extremely abusive and damaging to a child's mental well-being.

And Colleen? I agree with the rest of your post 100%! A father is not supposed to be a child's "peer" and fathers who do not maintain proper boundaries--as well as mothers who do the same, are turning their children into their "emotional care-takers", which is the place properly reserved for their spouse.

Failure to maintain these proper boundaries results in a co-dependent, dysfunction parent-child relationship, and if anyone here REALLY doesn't understand why this is abusive and very, very wrong, then remember: Google is your friend!

THE CHILD DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG AND SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED TO THE OTHER WOMAN.

Sorry kkny, but you're wrong and any qualified therapist would say the same! She is not to blame for her father's abuse at USING her as "the other woman" but that's what happened just the same. That's what makes it "emotional incest."

Father's who molest their daughters are also abusing, and using them as a "substitute wife", and and yes, that's actual "incest" which is pretty offensive and horrific, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Have you considered therapy? Oh, it's highly beneficial, you just might learn something.

I think if you want a relationship with your father, he has it made it pretty clear, you will have to respect and accept his wife. As I see it, the only question is, how bad do you want a relationship with your dad? Only you can answer that question, and you might not be able to right now. Hard as it is, you will set aside the pain you experienced during your parents troubles & divorce. Their marriage, and what does or doesn't happen to that marriage, should not be reflective of your relationship, as an adult child. You need to seperate yourself from your parent's relationship, and focus on your father/daughter relationship, and how you can make that stronger while finding a way to include his wife.

Fact, I am sorry about your situation. And I am sorry Colleen has to be so mean to rub you in the dirt with "and your father picked her"

It appears that the only people who think you are clearly wrong are people who consider a child who has been told inappropriate things the same as the other woman. The only reason they could think that is that think the other woman did nothing wrong. That having an affair with a married man is entirely acceptable.

You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are reasonable. I would keep up with the phone conversations, but not have unlimited conversations re getting toghethor.

So basically he has drawn the line in the sand. Include the wife or no go. So, it's your move. I think your husband has probably hit the nail on the head here... you both are speaking very different languages and coming from very different places.

Just pondering dad's position here.... I assume he is up there in years given your age and being the youngest. He obviously made a lot of mistakes with your mom... his former wife. Some of those mistakes were made with this woman (more than once apparently) Now, trying to assume the best out of everyone here... perhaps dad is trying to just be a better husband this time around. In his world he wants his wife to not be ostracized (sp) and figures that since you are an adult it shouldnt be hard for you to do. Not fair ... but a possibility. And also knowing that you are an adult he full well knows that you have your own life and your own business to attend to... so why would he risk his last chance at doing things right with this wife by allowing his grown children to exclude her which would cause a rift in their marriage and possibly leaving him alone... because its not like your life is going to stop...yes there will be visits and calls... but he would be alone for the most part. Ofcourse this is his own doing... but like I said I am just trying to think of where he may be coming from on this. Or maybe doing better with this marriage is his way of penance for the mistakes of his past marriage.

On the other hand you see your dad and this woman who was a very important part of breaking up your parents marriage and you cant even think of having a relationship with her... but do not want to lose your relationship with your father.

Perhaps he is being a little unreasonable but then we dont know what his reasoning is in order to say he is being unreasonable. If he is indeed just trying to do things better this time around... if he is just trying to mend the fences and do better with this wife... maybe its not so unreasonable. Hard to swallow and very frustrating but not necessarily unreasonable. I mean yeah it is difficult and he should probably demonstrate a little more understanding...but like your dh said ... you two are so busy speaking different languages... that neither of you are taking into consideration the reasoning behind what you are doing. A little understanding of what is going on in someones head can go a long way.

Your real challenge now is do you cross the line in the sand or wait and let it become an ocean between you two. I personally would have a talk with dad and try and understand why this is so important to him. And then I would listen and not just to the words but what is behind them as well. Tell your dad you dont approve ... tell him it hurts... tell him you will not ever tolerate any negative talk from new wife or anyone else for that matter and then extend the olive branch ... invite dad and wife for dinner or whatever see how it goes and go from there. If everyone is on their best behavior then perhaps it can be a workable situation in the future.

There are probably a ton of moments that I wish did not include BM (of my skids) and more will mount in the future but it does not change the feeling or the happiness of the moment... and more so as long as everyone is on their best behavior it makes it better for our mutual interest... the kids.

Thanks to everyone who posted. Even if I don't agree with you, at least it perhaps helps me to see a glimpse of the other side of the fence.

Colleen, it's not relevant why I don't like her. Just like it's not relevant why my father does. It's not about me being better than her. It's not about her. I can't hate someone that I've never cared about. It's about him refusing to see me because I choose not to be around her.

I feel he's being unreasonable. We live within minutes of each other, both of us have vehicles, both of us have jobs and we both have free time. There is no reason for him not to spend time with me.

A relationship is a two way street. One person doing all the bending isn't going to lead to a healthy one. He has to meet me in the middle and not only that, but he has to want to do it.

a healthy relationship is a relative term.... everyones definition of relationships are different...

there is a qoute I once heard "never let pride or your own unwillingness to bend stand in the way of your happiness"

just a thought

Fac3tious,

First of all, please, do not let anyone tell you that because she is his wife, you have to do anything, especially anything that makes you uncomfortable. You did not create this situation, your father did. It is absolutely, completely reasonable that you want to spend time alone with your father. You do not owe this woman anything, and it would be wrong of your father (and his wife) to have ANY expectations that you will automatically want to develop a relationship with her.

Now, having said that, if you want to have a relationship with your father, you are going to have to be polite and even social with his wife. Your father, though, should understand that this will take time, and that it is unfair of him to push you into this. Believe me, I know that this is a very, very uncomfortable situation for you, and your father must be respectful of that. He expects you to be respectful of his wife, right? And why?, because he is afraid you will hurt her feelings. Well you know what? He needs to have the same respect for you and your feelings. You are his daughter, and you did not choose for your father to put you in this situation.

I think you should present your father with a compromise. You will occasionally go to dinner with or spend time with both your father and his wife, and of course you will be polite and respectful towards her (painful, but you can do it), but you will also get to spend some time alone with your dad, without his wife present. I mean come on, she is NOT your mom! She is not even your step-mom who so lovingly and selflessly helped to raise you. And just because she is your dad's wife, this does not make her your friend either. There are things you may want to talk to your dad about every now and then that you will not feel comfortable discussing in front of this woman. That is so incredibly reasonable, so please don't feel one bit badly about wanting to spend time alone with your dad. He should be grateful that you love him and want to see him, he should NOT try to punish you for not wanting a fake relationship with the woman he happens to love. I'm sure your father would be thrilled, just thrilled, if you welcomed his wife with open arms...he obviously loves you and wants your approval. But your father needs to "man up" and deal with the consequences of the situation he created. He can't expect you to automatically want a relationship with her, just because that is what he wants, or that is what is easier for him. Seems like a pretty self centered/childish expectation to me.

I think that if you have not already done so, you should explain to your father how much he has hurt you. Maybe try to do this in front of a counselor or lcsw. It would be good for you to vent to him, and let him know how angry and hurt you are. You can't just use this as an excuse to bash him though, you need to also be prepared to accept his apologies and appreciate any attempt he makes in his relationship with you, otherwise you may lose him entirely.

It is amazing how people can be so blind to the emotional pain they cause others, or perhaps they are just really, really good at denial.

Of course it is important to do what you need to do to protect yourself, but also never forget than none of us is perfect, not you, not your father, not me, no one is without flaw. Maybe if you can accept that about your father, you will begin to be able to forgive him.

My dad recently advised me that he plans to marry the woman with whom he has had an affair for the past 15+ years. So I want to thank you for posting this because I can completely relate. I feel your pain!!!

I wish you the best!

I wouldn't want anything to do with the woman either. I would do as you have tried to do, maintain a relationship with your father without this woman. Personally, I would refuse to have anything to do with her.

I think your father is being unreasonable, he wants you to respect and accept his, well, whore (that's what she is, in my book), but he refuses to respect and accept your feelings about the situation. And yes, he is just as at fault for the affair, blah, blah, blah... But he is your father and you may owe him a certain amount of forgiveness because of that relationship. But this woman is nothing to you, there is no reason for you to extend her the same olive branch.

I don't think you should like or respect his wife, but it is possible to tolerate her company for the sake of your father. Unless she mistreats you, i think you can tolerate her company for a couple of hours here and there on a neutral territory.

And i still insist that you should work on your relationship wiht your mother. You are concerned about not being able to see your dad and yet you do not speak to your mother for months and have even worse relationship wiht her. Why doesn't it concern you as much?

You are willing to forgive your dad cheating on your mom and sharing it wiht you but do not want to forgive your mom for being angry at dad. It sounds strange.

hey serenity seeing how he is involved wiht his wife he will probably read this letter to her. I wouldn't put anything on paper. He and SM could use it one day for soemthing...

My mother is a whole other can of worms. Believe me when I say that it's a work in progress, much as my father. I purposely tried to keep this about my relationship with my father. Honestly, as I have posted to many forums, I know how things can get out of hand when you mention different kinds of details. My mother has pulled some serious heinous things and I wanted to keep the focus.

When they first got divorced I was at college full-time. The drama got so out of hand that it almost made me have a breakdown. Perhaps that is what happened. We're from Ohio and when I had finally reached my limit... I packed everything I owned into my two door civic and moved to Portland, Oregon. I didn't know a soul there, but I had to get away from it. 3 years later and I have returned refreshed, but not whole. It will take time for all of us to ease back into things.

Lately, she's been behaving and I have seen her more often. Even encouraging me to make amends with my father and accept his wife. I would have to go into a lot of details for you to fully understand when I say that I don't necessarily believe in her intentions. She could quite possibly mean it on a certain level, but she's notorious for doing things for her own agenda. I take it with a grain of salt and keep our time together active and upbeat.

There is never an easy answer and that's not what I'm looking for. I didn't post my question because I wanted 15 people to agree with me. I want the diverse feedback, even if it hurts because in the end - I don't want to lose him. I can be very stubborn, especially when I am hurting.

Again, thanks to everyone for the feedback.

hey not to disrespect your mother but if she can be difficult maybe that's why your dad found his happiness wiht someone else? Not to excuse affairs but maybe he deserves happiness. Hopefully I didn't offend you but maybe they weren't a good match and realized it too late, stuck together for the kids. Kids are grown so time to move on, so dad moved on. Moved to maybe happier life for himself (hopefully mom will one day as well).

Affairs are terrible but some people have hard time ending marriages even if they are unhappy. they stay for number of reasons but end up having affairs. Very wrong, but people are afraid of divorces.

And maybe mom is difficult becuz dad had affairs -- we dont know. And he could have moved on sans the affairs.

It appears that the only people who think you are clearly wrong are people who consider a child who has been told inappropriate things the same as the other woman. The only reason they could think that is that think the other woman did nothing wrong. That having an affair with a married man is entirely acceptable.

You know kkny, your posts say a whole lot more about you than they do about anyone else.

The real reason your friends are telling your that your X is becoming "disenchanted" with his little "pool princess" is because they're just telling you what they think you want to hear! Yeah, I do that for my friends, that's what friends are for, but your daughter? Colleen's comments hit a little too close to home for your comfort, didn't they?

And the real reason you want to "blame the other woman" for infidelity is because you're still in love with your X!

You say you hate him? It's almost hard to believe you don't already know this but the opposite of love is not hate, it's INDIFFERENCE!

Love and hate are 2 very closely related emotions. The only ones who have the power to really hurt you the most, are the ones we love and care about the most.

Anger is actually depression and sorrow directed outwards, and that's actually healthier then blaming yourself. But instead of directing yours at him, where it belongs, you are directing it at TOW, when in fact, if it hadn't been her, it probably would have been someone else. After all, aren't you the one who keeps contending that because he cheated on you, he's going to cheat on her "eventually"? Right?

Look, my husband's tall, dark and then some, and he's had women virtually throwing themselves at him, especially after his X cheated on and dumped him, and he went and became the lead singer for a local rock band. And it's not like he didn't take them up on their generous offers, but the day I agreed to go out with him, was the day they all became history--and it wasn't for their lack of trying either!

No woman on the planet has the power to make a man cheat unless he WANTS to! You are giving these women WAY too much credit!

If you think otherwise, it's because you're floating down that little river in Egypt we call DeNile!

And you apparently do think otherwise, because if you didn't blame your divorce on HER, then you wouldn't be coming here to bash 2nd wives and stepmoms. What you are actually engaging in is called "projection". You are projecting the blame for what happened to you, on others here, along with your anger.

The reason you're projecting the blame on her (and others) instead of directing it at your X is because you don't actually want to hate him, anymore than the OP here wants to hate her father.

You CLAIM to hate your X, but deep down inside you believe that it if wasn't for TOW, you and him would still be together. It's not a logical belief, it stems from pure emotion. The reason for that is even though you may not admit, especially yourself, you want him back.

The emotion I feel towards my XH's former GF is pure gratitude! I wish I could send her a thank you card and a big old box of chocolates because I would have never left him for any reason other than cheating, in which case, I would have never even met, much less married my current wonderful husband!

You can keep right on floating down DeNile as long as you wish, but if you ever want to come back to shore and move on with your life, well, you're going to have to start being honest, not with the posters here, but with yourself.

I dont think I hate my X, but I clearly dont love him. Would I take him back -- No, he has shown he cant be trusted.

I dont know why you pretend to know so much about me -- and why you and Coleen attack so much when anyone says affairs arent right.

Finedreams, you're absolutely right. I spent the better part of my teenage years living in my house praying that my parents would GET divorced. My mother never recovered from the discovery and made both my father and my life a living hell.

However, this is NO JUSTIFICATION for cheating. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. If he was unhappy, which he clearly was, he should have grown a set of balls and walked on out the door. He chose not to and then chose to cheat instead. That is why I didn't go into my mother from the beginning because I didn't want this to turn into sides.

They have both made a lot of mistakes and both have caused a lot of pain. Some could have be avoided, perhaps others not. All of which is in the past. I'm over that part of it, but what I'm not over is his refusal to see me.

There have been books, movies and even wars about two people who want to be around each other but are either forbidden or not capable and YET they still find a way against all odds. There are no crazy odds here. He lives 5 minutes from me and is perfectly able to see me. He chooses not to do it.

Fac3tious, I thought about this some more and compared it to the situation I had with my Dad & SM. My SM wasn't TOW, though, so the situations can't be 100% compared because the TOW factor is what really tips the balance so much more towards your Dad being unreasonable to foist her upon you. That said, however, I stick to what I say about it being wrong, TOW or not, for a new spouse to insist on 'chaperoning' every visit between parent and child.

BUT... the thing about my own situation that really got me thinking was the fact that I basically did have to suck it up and deal with my SM a lot more than I wanted to to keep her from totally cutting me out of my Dad's life. No matter what she hurled in my direction, I brushed it off and kept my resolve to not let her ruin every visit. That meant I had to deal with her presence. Not at every moment, thankfully, but she as obstacle was not budging so I had to work around her. "You're asking me to spend my visit with my dying father by cleaning up your piles of crap in your office? Okay, SM, I'll knock it out in one afternoon! You want to make wierd little comments suggesting my mother is a sexless bag? Okay, I'll laugh ---and you'll think you're so funny but really I'm laughing because you're so pathetically insecure! Dis-inviting me from my Dad's last Christmas alive? I'll send presents to you & yours and guess what? My Dad will spend half the day calling me because he misses me so much and admires my dignity in the face of your mean-spirited petty bulls**t." In the end, I really do think that's a big part of why my Dad and I were on really good terms when he died. Not as much because his approval of me was based on an acting job on my part, or because he truly needed me to love HER, but beacuse he could see that because I loved HIM, I was willing to put up with some amount of crap (and I think he knew it was crap) to be able to see him. But not so much crap that I couldn't outsmart it, which I think he was proud of. In the end, I dare say he thought more of my character and maturity than he did of hers. Not that it should have EVER been a competition ---I'd want him to think I'm strong & mature regardless--- but I do have to admit a wee sense of 'victory' about it, given that she tried to turn everything into a trashy Jerry Springer psychodrama.

Because the key thing here is you don't want to give your new SM the least bit of ammo to justify any bright idea she might get that your dad should never speak to you again. Don't give her ANYTHING that she can hold over your head or accuse you of within even a glimmer of justification. Unfortunately what this may mean is don't do anything to her that you wouldn't want her turning around and doing to you out of spite, and that means don't exclude her from everything. Note I didn't say don't exclude her from ANYTHING. She's just going to have to get over that she's not going to get to sit in on every conversation or lunch. But as long as you're 'trying', at your own pace, 'making efforts', she can't say you 'NEVER' want her around. It's not because she deserves the respect of your embracing her into your life. It's damage control so she doesn't have anything to hang you with.

Compromise is usually a good solution. At the very least it takes some heat off you. The trick is to find ways to bend without bending over backwards and breaking. Or to suck up a few things without taking more crap than anyone should. There's a line, and sometimes it can get real blurry, but there is a line.

dont know why you pretend to know so much about me

Because it's totally obvious. I've walked in your shoes and it comes through in your every post.

Neither me or Coleen ever said affairs were ok, nor did either one of us "attack" anyone for saying affairs were wrong. Your assumption behind that statement was untrue, groundless and completely irrational. Yet another lie you've invented without conscience or shame.

I could do the same, fabricating assumptions about you, into false questions such as "So tell me kkny, when did you stop beating your daughter?" which is a slight variation of the classic example of this type of logical fallacy, "When did you stop beating your wife?" otherwise known as arguing by use of the "complex question," which is a completely invalid form of reasoning, designed specifically for the purpose of attempting to prove an argument by crafting a lie.

Here's what I think:

I think you know better and imagine somehow you're being clever. I think you feel your actions are justified because you're so self-absorbed in your own pain and bitterness that you've become unable to separate the 2nd wives on this board from your X's current SO. You blame HER for breaking up your marriage, and imagine that by fighting with us, you're fighting with her.

You feel she stole your husband with underhanded "dirty dealing" and as you're project the crime you feel she commited against you onto this board, you are retaliating "in kind" by doing the same type of "dirty dealing" to me, and others on this board. I think you feel perfectfully justified in retaliating using this type of "dirty dealing" here because, being as you can't separate us from her, you feel we "deserve it."

I don't think you care about the truth, you just care about winning! And what is it that you want to win? What was stolen from you, namely your husband.

Deny it all you want, but you're only fooling yourself.

And when I found out my X cheated on me, so did I! I directed my anger at his GF instead of at him, only I didn't go on internet boards seeking revenge, I went right after HER! And my fury was far too great to settle for bickering or fabricating stories, some of the things I did were illegal! And I felt perfectly justified too!

I "beat her up", burnt her clothes, trashed her car, and oh, in an incredible stroke of luck, I got a hold of a security camera video tape of her that was truely scandalous, and had copies made and sent to her family! We lived in a very small town at the time, and I knew EVERYONE!

None of a damn bit of good, made a single difference or had any effect on my X and his GF's relationship. The only effect it did have was to start turning me into as bad and evil a person as I felt she was.

Tragedy and heartache are part of life. Every single one of us have horrible things that happen to us that we can't stop or do a single thing about. All we can control is our own actions, and it's what we do afterwards that counts. It's those tragedies that shape and define our characters, and that's when we find out what we're really made of.

Most evil people aren't born that way, and they don't wake up that way overnight. It's a process, a jouney taken voluntarily down that slippery slope until they reach the point of no return.

Before I went too far, I stopped myself, turned around and climbed back up--where I found my current husband waiting for me with open arms. First time I saw him, he was so gorgeous, I almost dropped to the floor! The attraction was intense and immediate and the sparks flying between the 2 of us could have set the entire town on fire!

I honestly never thought I'd ever marry again, much less with a guy as wonderful and loving (not to mention drop dead gorgeous) as him, and I wouldn't have either if I had still been carrying around the burden of all that hatred and pain. I'd have been too self-absorbed and my bitterness would have repelled his loving heart and drove him away.

Only abusers and predators are attracted to "damaged goods", so if you don't get rid of your burden, you're only setting yourself up to be the recipient of even more heartache and pain down the road.

Again, your choice.

About your fathers wife..."She also slept with my mother's brother." About your mother... "She could quite possibly mean it on a certain level, but she's notorious for doing things for her own agenda" Ok given those two statements how can you be sure she actually slept with your mothers brother?...because your mother said so?...I mean this woman is under a full character assasination which by the way I am well aquainted with due to my husbands ex needing someone else to blame for their miserable marriage. I mean she had me sleeping with her ex (my now husband) for 10 years before we actually got together. Not to mention spreading the most vicious rumors you could imagine about how I slept with everyone in the neighborhood. Nothing could be furthur from the truth. Unless you were in bed with this woman and all of her supposed "affairs", how do you really know who is telling the truth?...is it possible that she is really truly in love with your father?. And it may be likely that you are correct about her...but it's all a moot point now..who's right or wrong about her...I know the issue here is that he won't see you without his new wife. He is trying to make a point to you that she is a priority. To him, she is. So are you, but so is she. he's between a rock and a hard place. My husband would do the same thing now if his children behaved that way. Thankfully, they know the truth and we have all worked hard at not letting their mother (his ex) poison us with her bitterness. Why not give the situation a try instead of this stalemate...it serves no good in the long run. giving people ultimatums whether you think its justified or not does nothing but force a choice.

My uncle actually told me about the affair he had with my dad's wife. It was around the same time as when my father had an affair with her when I was 2 years old.

My mother has definitely spewed some vicious lies, but I would not write them or repeat information such as that unless I have a valid source. My mother was pretty upset that my uncle had admitted to this as she was ashamed and embarassed.

I'm going to take some time to think on things before I react. Right now I am content to let him think on the matter as well. I definitely don't want to say anything I would regret or to make the situation worse.

you know the one thing that just sickens me more than anything else? It's the fact that you were made privy to all of this sordid crap. I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. I just think for your own emotional well being and the relationship with the parents that you obviously love so much that you need to accept who they are...unconditionally. You cannot control the actions of anyone else just your own. Life is a series of choices and with those choices come consequences. we've all made bad ones. So, can't you just hate the behavior and not the person or people that have hurt you? If you decide to distance yourself from your family for your own emotional safety, then that's a choice. But be prepared for some anguish to follow. the situations stinks (badly) You may even find that you have to be the adult here. The whole purpose for my saying this stuff is because I know from experience that the only person who suffers from withholding is the withholder. I wish you all the best.I'm reading a good book written by Eckhart Tolle called Oneness with Life. give it a try while you ponder your decision.

not only your dad but also your uncle told you about their sex life. Not a good idea. I cannot see under what circumstances my uncle would even have this type of conversation wiht me. something is not right about it.

and if affairs happened when you were 2, it is long enough to stop worry about it. affairs don't bother me but this lack of boundaries wiht both dad and uncle are just fishy. like jerry springer show. they got to stop talking to you about their intimate moments.

I would agree with dogdog on this one.
Your father has made it clear what he wants. It depend how bad you want a relationship with your father.
I think, you are both being unreasonable. and both of you should comprimise.
I think you should go over to his house and spend some time. You never know, his new wife may feel uncomfortable for the next time and say its best for him to go at it alone.
Have you tried? Cause if you refuse , than you are at a standstill and there is no reason for beating a dead horse..
move on with your life without your dad since you are so adament for not going over there to see him.
Stop complaining. Your father is not making the move. So if you want your father FAcs, GO get him! Go yourself, stand with your chin high and say i want my father . who cares if you do not like his wife. Who cares if she is there in the house, Focus on your dad.
And if you are not willing to do this...than move on and stop complaining.
I didn't like my first stepmom...didn't stop me from being with my dad, even when seh was across the couch!

good points organic. my dad was killed in an accident in 1960, i would put up the Devil himself to see my dad.

It sounds like you did not invite your father's wife to your wedding. I am sure that caused a lot of hard feelings. You said "aren't I allowed to invite whom I want". Yes, you are but there can be consequences. You don't have to be respectful but can you be civil to his wife? If the lunch doesn't work alone with your dad can you think about asking again for a dinner and include her and just try to be polite?
If you didn't completely write her off he may be willing to spend time with alone too.

fac3t...I know how you feel. I didn't get along with my SM either for several reasons. She was not TOW, but she was pretty nasty to me and my brother. I think the best thing you can do is ask your Dad for compromise. You need to spend time with the 2 of them together and you also need to have alone time with just him. When you have alone time, don't bring your hubby along either.

I do feel that the reason he is putting his foot down about the situation is because she wants to feel in control. Why else would a woman want to spend time with somebody who she knows does not care for her? The same was true for my SM. I believe that it still is, but I'm nice to her now, and she's nice to me, and we pretend that everything is fine, and for the most part, it is.

Hang in there!

Organic, a forum is for complaining. I hightly doubt too many people are here because their life is peachy keen and they just thought they would show the world and ask for support on how to deal with their happiness.

In the past few days, my outlook has changed quite a bit from the constructive commentary. My intentions are obvious. I want him in my life. It's finding the way to do that where we're both comfortable.

I tried going over to their house to see him. There were quite a few things that she said that I didn't appreciate. She made comments about money and how my father signed my student loans. I stopped her from saying anything about my mother and she, herself, has even made some sideways comments to me about the two of them "in bed" and when she's "frisky." I told my father about the last part and he said, "she's just very open."

The last time I was at his house was as I stated above when she started to say something about my mother and I stopped her in her tracks - he got defensive. I didn't yell, but I was very firm about never going to stand for that. She stomped off and he told me not to talk to his wife like that. In the end, after an argument between the two of us, he kicked me out of the house and told me not to return. Of course, this was in anger but nonetheless - I told him that day he wouldn't have to ask me twice.

I'm going to try giving him a call to see if he'll chat with me about it for a bit. Perhaps if we can get to the bottom of why exactly I have to bend and come over to the house to be around her (given all the facts) then perhaps we can come to a compromise.

Fac,

I think the situation is hopeless. Her comments about your father signing your student loans, when she wasnt even married to him at the time, are inappropriate. Words cant even describe why she would talk about your mother or being "frisky".

Does your father have any close friends you can talk to?

KK no situation is hopeless...the entire family including her parents and uncle have spoken to her inappropriately about their extracurricular activiites. She needs to set her boundaries and stick to them. My stepdaughter used to go to her mothers house and her mother would start bashing her father and me until one day my step daughter said to her, "I won't come here anymore if you continue this talk"
Her mother stopped speaking negatively about us from that day forward (at least to her daughter) So if the OP states what she expects from these "grownups" and if they value her in any way they will try and meet her halfway and stop speaking to her in such a manner. The dads wife sounds really immature, But I don't think it's hopeless.

Cindy,

You bring up an interesting point. Why is it OK for SD to threaten not to go to moms, but not OK for a daughter not to visite her Dad, if SM is toxic? Which it seems like she is. Some people here have one set of recommendations for Dad/SM house, and another for moms?

Cindy is right -- it isnt hopeless. But this woman seems toxic. All you can do is reach out to your dad, through his frieends and other relatives. May take time

GAG.

Comments like that are so desperately immature it's *almost* not even worth acknowledging it with any response whatsoever. But especially given that she was the OTHER WOMAN, it may merit being shown up for how trashy it really is.

At the moment, the best thing I could think of as a response ---if only one could get up the nerve--- would be something along these lines:

"Frisky, eh? Aw, how kittenish. And how thoughtful of you to be so open with me about these little tidbits regarding your sex life, it means so much. Please do feel free to share more. I can't imagine any stepchild of TOW who wouldn't absolutely love hearing every last wonderful detail about EXACTLY what kind of f**king TOW and Dad have enjoyed since long before Dad got divorced and while Mom was at home being played for an idiot and sobbing into my Spaghetti-O's. Don't leave anything out because I just know this is going to be such a girl-bonding conversation that will really help us form a trusting respectful relationship with one another! So let's dish: does Dad like nipple clamps? Whose car did the very first romp occur in? Who said 'I have to be home in an hour' first? Can he still get it up with you as just yourself or does he have to pretend he's with anOTHER Other Woman? Oh, do tell... I just know we're going to be the best of friends!"

But definitely give it plenty of thought to come up with the exact right thing to say... you'd want that moment to really COUNT!

KK, My stepdaughter set her boundaries with her mom as she saw fit...the OP needs to do that with dad and his wife. If her dad isn't willing to see her if she doesn't see his wife also, then she is going to suffer. I think it would be fitting for her to sit down with them both and just tell them everything she feels. But honestly, I think these people don't have her best interest at heart in the least because if they did , they wouldn't be talking to her about the intimate details of their lives and they would try and sit down with her and as I said, meet her half way at the very least. the advice that we give this young girl (young by my standards anyway) should be advice that will help her to make the best decision for her own well being in the long run. Being estranged from her father will hurt her.

Hope I didn't offend anyone with my last post. If so, I apologize. I enjoy writing so I sometimes get a little flamboyant with my language. Plus I have a lewd streak that sometimes comes out when something gets my dander up and makes me feel snarky. And on top of that, I sometimes try to be funny about things that aren't funny. Not always a winning combination...

Oh my God Serenity, I think I just peed my pants.

Nothing to say that hasn't already been said - I think Pacific read my mind - but I just had to commend Serenity on her use of sarcasm. It's my favorite form of expression.

Facs, sounds like your father wife is a real peace of work. But i can see what she is trying to do...she basically downgrading someone to put her hubby on a pedastle....but to me they both sound like smucks.
sorry...but i can understand fatherly love. My father was a real piece of work growing up in different ways....he never cheated...
Was a very hard worker...strict. But never the 'father' that would fit the characteristic from north america. Old fashion he was, from the villages...
So there was never any movie time or play time with him. He worked , brought the money home, and disciplined. Cold....
But hey, you love them nonetheless.
I agree with the stand you did with his wife. And i understand he was defending her even though she was way out of line with what she was doing.
I think in order to see your fahter , you will have to put up with her BS and just stand firm with what you feel.
You have to speak with your father and basically tell him that his new wife is not to talk about the past , money or your mother. Those are off topics.
Everyone has to comprimise here.
1. His wife, not to speak of certain subjects.
2. Your father to acknowledge what both of you want.
3. You have to speak to both of them in a manner saying : i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings but i really do not ever want to talk about my mother, and i find it insulting when you bring up student loans. I'm an adult woman and i wish to have a futur relationship not hanging onto the past.
So i think, continue the phone calls for now until a futur meeting and dont push it.

this whole family has no boundaries. dad and uncles discuss their intimate stuff wiht a girl. then of course SM thinks it is OK if she discusses their intimate stuff with OP. everything goes. how does she know it is wrong if even dad and uncle do that! i think it is time to set boundaries, for everyone in the family.

fac3,

Maybe you should try thinking of it a different way. And I apologize in advance if anything that follows offends you, but you asked for everything, and and if this is the same woman he cheated with when you were 2...

From what you've described it sounds possible your mom may have a mental disorder that she kept hidden until after they were married, and the woman he thought he married never actually existed. This generally holds true for narcissist, borderline, bipolar and other similar personality disorders. Do you "walk on eggshells" around your mother? If so, that's a strong indication and you may want to read up on these.

Then met TOW, and maybe to them, it wasn't JUST an affair, but when he asked for a divorce, your mother refused maybe even threatening what she would do to him and how she would punish his children--and he believed her too! So for the sake of his children, he put aside his own personal desires and chose you over her, to protect and keep his children from harm.

So he bore the brunt of your mom's fury himself, mostly in silence, but that would explain also why he confided in you with some of those inappropriate adult conversations--because he needed someone, and never really had a wife or anyone else and he felt very alone. His only joy in life for 20 years was YOU. When his loneliness became too great to bear, he also sought comfort in the arms of another woman, but that was just "comfort sex," shallow and unfulfilling. It's no excuse but it is THE REASON.

After the rest of his children moved on and you were ready as well, absent any further need of protection, he felt that after 20 years of abuse, he could not see himself living that way, all alone with his tormenter for the rest of his life. He fulfilled his obligations, and after all that, didn't he deserve some happiness by finally being with someone he loved, and returned his love?

This is no justification for cheating, but there is also a reason it is called FALLING in love, because that's what happens. We fall, and there's no way to stop ourselves. That's why it's better not to place yourself in the path of temptation. Maybe your dad and TOW fell in love those many long years ago, madly, desperately and hopelessly. When your dad chose you over her, she made some very bad choices as broken-hearted people tend to do. For all you know, at one time she may have had high standards and morals which your dad convinced her to set aside for him, promising he would take protect and care for her, and when he didn't she fell by the wayside, and went into a downward spiral.

If your dad loved her, he should have protected her too! Instead now, he feels guilty for having abandoned her, the woman he never stopped loving, and is now extremely protective because he feels responsible--and that's because he IS responsible. His entire life has been one of obligations and responsibilities, and she is the one obligation he made that he didn't fulfill. Instead he left her out in the cold, all alone, to be made the subject of ridicule and abuse, he's regretted it ever since. He's not about to make that same mistake, ever again!

And now the daughter who he loved deeply that he made this sacrifice for is the very one he must protect her from. Every single day, he is probably regretting he didn't leave your mom long ago--and maybe he should have! If he didn't love her, he should freed her to find love with someone else. We each only have 1 life, and none of us should live it trapped in a loveless marriage.

He has obligated himself to her now voluntarily, and dedicated himself to sheilding and protecting her, just like he with you--only you have your own husband and in no further need of your dad's protection--she is now his primary responsibility.

If you can't see how you are putting him in a very bad position by attempting to convince him to exclude his wife, then it might help to consider that even the most dispicable amount us, those who embody the very essence of evil, namely "sociopaths" and "psychopaths," are nice and even kind to those who care about and treat them well--and that doesn't take any effort whatsoever because that's in their own best interest. What separates them from the rest of us is that they lack the ability to EMPATHIZE--to truely place oneself in another's shoes to gain an awareness of their thoughts, emotions and behavior, even those you don't agree with and even those you find distressing until you find some way to relate and care about them, at least enough to be compassionate and considerate. It's what gives us the ability to "treat others as we wish to be treated ourselves" even people we don't like, even people who do things we feel are wrong.

You are only seeing him as your father, and not the entire man as an individual human being, with all the same flaws and human weaknesses, along with the same emotions to be happy with a mate who is his alone to love and cherish, with whom he can enjoy the passions of intimate love, and find the place where he belongs and can call home. Even from what you've said, he never had that with your mom.

But hey! I could be wrong, maybe your dad's a good person who made some mistakes and poor choices, or he's a dog! You can decide that for yourself, but if he's not going to change his mind, and you can't find some way to empathize and compromise to include her in some way, then the only resolution I can see is for you and your dad to go your separate ways.

But I hope that's not going to happen.

fac3,
If you can relate to anything disengaging is telling you please listen to her. My husband experienced this kind of person also.she lived to invoke fear in anyone, she was controlling, abusive and lied about basic every day details of life. When the children would pass her in our car they would gasp in fear. This is the hold she had over them. I asked my husband, why do you give her this much control? She thrived on this behavior until we all decided it was time to pull the plug and practice not letting her harrass. This stuff really does happen in marriages. My husband was so afraid of her psuedo power that he just stayed for 18 years. He confessed to me after we had been together for a few months that he actually contemplated suicide.. .she created this whole weird hold over them all. She used anger, violence, deception, you name it to control them. My husband was a perfect target for her mental disorder. He is very gentle, hates confrontation and lives to please. So not everything is as it seems sometimes. I could go on but you've already heard enough from your own family.

And with that; if in doubt you should check out www.facing-the-facts.net
This is a very helpful site to gain some insight on Borderline Personality Disorder. It's my other favorite forum to be on, worth having a look!!

just a little addendum to my last post : My husbands ex was
diagnosed with borderline personality disorder during their divorce while under intense counseling in a custody battle. He was awarded custody of the children. They saw her every other weekend for about a year. The situation was so bad when they were with them they called crying or with details of being locked in the house with the security system on, Or worse. He took her back to court. the children had law guardians and after several months of this they were told they no longer had to visit their mother. So as I said above and I especially hope the SM critics will listen...not everything is as it seems. Many of our stories are complicated and extremely painful.

"You are only seeing him as your father, and not the entire man as an individual human being, with all the same flaws and human weaknesses"

good point. worth looking int it...