Silver Quite interesting reading. I have thought about EX and how he must feel about DD, or any woman that has been in his life. I do understand the conceptual thinking behind the term "limerance". I had a man that I felt that way about once. I never told him, figuring that if he felt anything for me he would approach me. There were a few mixed signals, I thought but he never made an attempt that was something that I knew for sure showed he was interested in me. He had enough chances to do that and he didn't. He thought of me as a friend or sister I guess. Or he would have gone for a little "roll in the hay" if I would have. He even introduced me to a girlfriend that he began dating and ended up getting her pregnant and they later married. Ouch! With EX's past ( if what he has said is true ) he undoubtedly has great fear of rejection. Again, if what he says is true, he wanted my DD to stay with him, build a future with him and he wanted a family with us. There are too many things though that are negatives to the success of their relationship that he is completely out of touch with which makes me think that he has a break with normal thought processes. This is evident with other actions...his extensive lying and his criminal behavior. My DD did not want to marry or have children ( my goodness, she is only 20 ) and he did. Very much in fact. I don't know that she will ever change her mind but he had said that he would rather have had her and no kids than to not have her at all. I don't know that it would have been something he could have easily lived with though. The age difference is something that was too vast....11 years...when dealing with her age group. Had they met when she was in her 30's or 40's or older then it would not have been as big a deal. I am sorry for him when it comes to honest, heartfelt feelings that he might have had for my DD. The fact that he could install such fear ( and continues to do so ) and the fact that he has told so many lies negates all of that though. It sucks to be rejected. Our family histories have a lot to do with whether or not we can process the rejection in a healthy way. Most of us have been and some of us have stepped over a line while dealing with it that we cringe at after having healed a bit. It is important to teach our kids that when they deal with peers or a romantic interest people have a right to reject them. In the long run it is for the best. I don't know how much EX has control over when it comes to his emotions about the breakup. I am sorry that I can't talk to him. It just can't happen. I want him to get help and to go onto have a happy life. More importantly though I want him to leave my DD alone and let her move on. Thanks for the thread and the link Silversword.

I'm glad to have some feedback on being a 'mentor' (assuming we do take our relationship to a more serious place). I'd think/hope that being a mentor of sorts would probably be the most beneficial and less awkward route to take for his daughter, myself, and my boyfriend. Maybe serve as a...mediator/bridge between the two? I want her to respect me and see me as somewhat of an authoritative figure, but I also want her to know that she can come to me with teenage things or frustrations a girl wouldn't normal be able to tell her parents. When my boyfriend and I first discussed his daughter (a while ago), he seemed to assume that I would be a mentor for her and help calm him from being a ridiculously overprotective/clueless dad; and I agree, I think that is definitely a position I could fill if this were to work out. But we'll see, it'll take some time and serious thought & communication to see if this is where I want to go in life. @Amber, I wasn't really suggesting coupling counseling, but more of an easement/adjustment counseling. And only if the situation needed it. Counseling is not only a 'fix' for bad things, it's also a way to PREVENT bad things; and the only time I would consider counseling, is if my boyfriend and I thought there might be a potential issue with his daughter. And it wouldn't be counseling to 'fix' a bad thing, but rather to help all of us ease into a new life. I imagine (IF we do get married...way later on) his daughter would find at least a little discomfort in having a 27 year old suddenly as an 'authoritative' figure in her 14 year old life. Plus, 14 is a difficult age for girls anyway. So if the situation seemed to need it, I think counseling would be a very helpful way in easing into the transition, establishing my 'role' in their family, and helping her to see I'm not looking to be a new mom or overstep my boundaries. Counseling would allow her to tell me what she wants/looking for, what I want, and what my boyfriend wants. But again, this would only happen if we were to marry later on and foresee a potential tension. So I'm going to have to disagree with you on the pre-marriage counseling being a bad omen. @mkroopy, thank you for making me sane again! I'll admit I definitely fell into the doubt 'trap'. I am confident in my boyfriend's loyalty, but when several people suggest otherwise, I do begin to doubt slightly (also doesn't help that I'm a serial worrier about everything!) But you are correct, men (& women) can definitely be faithful and it's disheartening to see that so many people think otherwise. So, just for the sake of pacifying anyone else's concerns...there is a very low chance my boyfriend is cheating, and if he is, then I will eventually learn my lesson, but I can't go about my relationship distrusting him. He works Monday-Friday from 11am-7pm, goes to the gym/runs errands, and then gets home at 11 pm. The only time he would be able to 'cheat' would be on the weekends, which is when he has his daughter, so he wouldn't be able to. I think he's much too busy and occupied with his daughter and me, that even if he wanted to, there would rarely be a time for him to cheat.

--"gardenandcats....I think that's awful advice"-- I seriously doubt Gcats meant for it to come out as 'sneak your SK off to counseling while he's at Dad's house under your care and to heck with what Dad/BM say/think'. --" My fianc� and she share joint custody, an he has suggested to get him into counseling many times, she refuses to get him help"-- Even with a 50/50 there is often times a set 'medical decision' maker. If it is truly a she can/he can (meaning either parent can make medical decisions) than there is little BM can do to stop Dad on Dad's 50. Of course for a smoother , perhaps more beneficial, counseling session it would be best for best parents to agree and at some point for both parents to also attend. The idea behind the sessions I will assume is to bring the sides together to agree on ways to cope with child and for child to cope with his new sitatuion. Denying the child ways to cope with life and feelings blah blah blah is hardly in the best interest of the child. The biological parents must work as a team to bring together the help and assistance the child may need. I'm still waiting for answers to above questions. Depending on the answers could be the core of what the child is actually having troubles with. If this child is having dealing and interacting with all children I would assume his teacher and school professionals would have been in contact with BM/Dad and discussed the options in helping the child. If the 'trouble' with the child is only present at home/s and has more to do with divorce, resentment blah blah blah...it's a different ballgame entirely. Being sheffled between to homes in it self can be a major stress factor for some kids. Being compared to two stepsiblings at live 24/7 together from birth on while the 'new child' in does not or perhaps does not even have other siblings is an unfair measure of 'judgement' as to what may or may not be 'wrong' with this child.

sorry this is a long vent... Fingernails: aye, yes and it was difficult. his birthday so i agreed to go out one last time, i'm going away on business soon anyway so i felt like that would protect and reinforce that not seeing each other until that list is finished... i know it was screwed up to go out with him but somehow i really feel like everyone deserves a nice birthday... but then he wanted to "talk" about that list, started going over it, like "ok well, the thing about meeting with his teacher every week.... can you go with me? and, i don't know if every week is going to be possible, i mean, she might get really annoyed." I said "well, hello, i mean it just means contact once a week to get her observations on him... so after the first meeting or two in which you explain the situation you can just call her once a week." Reasonable, no? I mean, wouldn't any teacher have sympathy for a single father who appraoches her saying he's struggling and needs her feedback? But then he still wanted me to go with him... my heart was torn but I was like "no, listen, it doesn't sound like you really want to do this stuff on this list. if you don't agree with it, if you don't think you're at crisis point enough to tell the teacher, hey listen sorry Ms. Teacher to be bugging you, i'm only doing it because i'm at wit's end over my son" ... well if you don't think you're at crisis point yet that you're still worrying about what she'll be annoyed with and what she thinks about you... then you're just not ready. (And besides, I mean wouldn't it be strange for me as girlfriend to go along to such a meeting? it's not my kid! Plus not so much teacher's impression but my point that BF should be doing this stuff HIMSELF! though later i thought, maybe he's worried she'll think he's coming on to her and that's why he wants me along... and then i felt bad for refusing) Then he wanted to move on to the other stuff, and I sensed he was trying to turn it into some kind of bargaining session. He was like "hmmm maybe I can do 60% or 80% of this but not all..." Remember the list was: going to family therapy 8 sessions, hiring a baby-sitter every single time we go out, talking to boy's teacher once a week, reading 5 books on parenting, my ex getting a real bed for himself and sleeping in the second bedroom not in the living room.... I thought "what on earth?! an ultimatum is an ultimatum! this is not negotiable!" Like him saying "oh maybe it's going to be hard to get a baby-sitter, i mean if it were a regular job fine, but it would be hard to get someone say for the weekend if we go away, especially if it's only occasionally. (in the ultimatum it said, OR the child just comes along! simple no?) I blew my top then, not literally but just said "hey it doesn't really sound like you're ready to make real changes so whatever... it's your call..." which unfortunatley turned into this long coversation on whether he is truly ready, etc... at which point i said "listen there are some deep underlying issues here which i don't think it's good to hear about from someone like me, we're too close, but a therapist could help you figure it out reasonably quick if it's a good one." At which point he says "yeah well actually i'm thinking more about calling my cousin who's a pediatrician... " at which point i thought "great a pediatrician is really going to help you figure out your parenting... especially if it's your relative who needs to stay on good terms with you!" but i humored him adn said "that sounds like a great start, ask her opinion about the situatin, maybe ask her if she things family therapy would help" but then he continues "because you know she met my son a couple years ago, spent a day with us, and she told me she thought my son was going to have problems." INside i'm like "what the #$%$#!!! a professional told you that, two years ago, and you never followed up on that?! You never asked her why she thought that, and what you could do about it? I sure as heck would be concerned if a pediatrician told me that. I'd ask a thousand questions and call that person whenever problems did happen!" More and more I just can't believe this guy! we left with me saying "ok well call me way way down the road, and if and only if there have been radical changes." which he kind of took to mean never. so in that sense my ultimatum has failed, it seems by saying i wasn't going to budge on it and wasn't going to go with him to see teacher, like he gave up... I feel bad but I think I have to save my sanity no? Thanks all for just letting me vent. Sorry to have taken up so much of everyone's time!