KD, Cabinet Makers, Expert Advise, plywood box or not?

15 years ago

I've been researching cabinets for about a month now. We are ready to order but still am not sure the best route to go. Can someone please answer these questions????

1. Should we pay the upgrade for all plywood box? I've had more cabinet dealers tell me it's not worth the extra price. They claim it's more for piece of mind because we all have the mindset that plywood is better.

2. If you don't recommend to pay the upgrade, what box construction is best? MDF, furniture grade, etc??

3. Baked on finish vs custom cabinet shop just applying the finish in his shop? We want a finish that will last at least 15yrs. Would it be better to get a factory finish vs the local cabinet shop who does not bake the finishes?

Finally here are a few manufactures we've narrowed it down to, does anyone have any comments good or bad about any of these??

Kabinart

Timberland

Diamond

Cardell

Thanks for any information I can get..

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Comments (11)

kompy
15 years ago
I'm another KD that thinks all-ply box isn't necessary. I always just upgrade the exposed ends. I've had both in past kitchens and to be honest, the vinyl interiors, I thought, adhered better to the substrate. The all wood interiors DOES look nice though.

The baked on finishes just speed up the drying process. Having said that, I still think a painted finish will be superior in a factory. It just depends on the quality of machinery (and environmental factors) of a cabinet-maker. Factories have dust-free environments. Not sure if cabinet-makers can achieve the same clean environments.

I have seen some cabinetmaker cabinets that were drop dead gorgeous....and I've seen some finishes that were horrible...especially the site-finished ones! Paint globs and drips everywhere.

I'm not completely familiar with the brands you listed...but I think they are all 'stock grade'? I have heard not so good things about Kabinart from a cabinet rep once...inconsistency, use of scrap woods, for example. But that was just one persons opinion and it was about 5 years ago. I have no personal experience with any of those. Hopefully, others will chime in for you.
creek_side
15 years ago
I don't know if this will be helpful or not, so take it for what it is worth. Our builder recommended Cardell. He said he installs them in million dollar homes. (Disclaimer: Nope not us.) Around here, a million dollar home is way expensive.

So we went down to the recommended local kitchen showroom (Medallion and Cardell) and looked at Medallion because folks here seemed to have good things to say about them.

The KD strongly hinted that Cardell was their lower quality line. We looked at them briefly on the way out. Nothing jumped out and shouted, "Buy Me," but we didn't spend much time looking at them. Later, we looked on line and decided they did not offer the wood/finish options that we were looking for. We didn't find what we were looking for in Medallion either, so we have not been back.
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I have a Kraftmaid frameless line (since discontinued) installed in 1990. High-density 1" particleboard with laminate veneers (interior and exterior) thicker than what is used nowadays. Having a lot of experience with particleboard bookshelves in the last 35 yrs - we have something like 6,000 books, a lot of them seriously heavy art and history books - I knew this was no problem as long as the cabinets were no wider than 32". There are different qualities (as others have pointed out) of plywood, particleboard, and MDF. The Kraftmaid cabs were a very good quality, so I had confidence that I would have no problem with sagging shelves. The cabinets have been perfect. In one base corner Lazy Susan cab one of the hinges finally loosened - I have a very bad habit of leaning on the door as I bend down to get something out! My handyman took off the door, plugged the hole with quick-set epoxy, redrilled it for the hinge and popped the door back on. No problems, solid as a rock ever since (5 years ago). The shelves are rated for 75 lbs. I have Lazy Susan base corners and pull-out pantry units, all heavily loaded, no problems. Had a small leak in the sink cab for six months and didn't find out till we replaced the whole faucet. A tiny quarter-sized piece of the laminate bubbled up slightly, no cracking though. Sink cab was unaffected otherwise, and in fact you can't see the flaw, you can only feel it. I love these cabinets. I put dishes away wet without worry. They clean up faster and easier than anything I've ever owned. An added advantage was that when we put in a bank of 20x16' picture windows, the UV increase was a nasty surprise. Destroyed the flooring and killed the refrig in less than 10 years - but laminate has very high UV resistance, unlike wood. Pure luck! I'm seriously toying with the idea that when we go to resell, of installing an IKEA kitchen and taking these cabinets with me. They're better made than the St. Charles cabinets I checked out at HD's Expo two years ago.
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Thank you so much mamadadapaige! One of the big take-away messages that I have gotten from all the people on GW but especially from you is that it is important to be very detailed and specific before asking for quotes, and critical not to abdicate any of the decisions. The more I measure and plan, the more I see the need to get as crisp as possible. Not that I couldn't benefit from lots of input and advice, and I am most grateful for everything I am learning here. I was hoping to ask you which cabinet makers you looked at. You anticipated my question! Can I ask you why you selected Crown Point? .Who did you work with there? Any tips for working with them? Am I right that one of your first requirements was full inset? I want full inset drawers but not sure about the doors yet. Your hood is so spectacular! Making it a budget priority to have that hood was a very good decision. (note to self) Thanks so much for pointing me to that supplier. Did you get the fan insert from them as well? My kitchen is 12 by 13 feet -- small enough that I need to watch every inch as well as every dollar. One of the "wishes" I have is to harvest and re-use some of the components such as leaded glass windows/cupboards (build new frames) and perhaps also harvest some of the gumwood veneer door panels -- would like to take these from the existing cabs and reframe them and combine into a pantry wall. Gumwood is now an "extinct" wood for cabinetry -- it was used a lot in my area in the twenties. The veneer panels on the cupboard door are quite amazing and I would like to keep the best of them. After looking at lots of pictures --and especially your pictures -- and collecting favorites into a file I see that enlarging the window to stretch from sink to ceiling and also widening it would be a key priority. So that means new leaded glass. Nothing that cannot be done, but all a matter of -- what will it cost? Thanks again for your responses.
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I seem to have gotten confused on the Shenandoah construction thicknesses. For one, sides are 1/2". So disregard whatever I noted if you're considering this line. Funny, I'm looking over these nearly 40 year old junkers that are still standing. They were even uninstalled and shuffled around 30 years ago. The cheap wood grained laminate doors had been replaced. The sides and back seem to be a 1/4" particle board type product. Some of it also looks like luan but is painted and might be particle board. One shelf is loose and I can see the particles on the box side. Particle board 3/4" shelves chipping along the edge but strong. It seems to be solid 3/4" framing for the faces and hanging rail. They are still standing and doing their job! The side panel on the sink base has popped out and it's really bad construction otherwise. The boxes were painted and doors replaced so they don't look as bad as all that. The painted raised panel replacement doors have held up well for nearly 30 years. They look to be solid wood. The only real damage to the finish is on the raised panel edge of the two drawer fronts under the counter. They've lost finish and are chippy because the counter's drip edge doesn't project out far enough. I'm very surprised to see that situation on a lot of store display installations. The cabinets are just about even with the 25" counter edge. That's bad news for finishes. I'll be getting 26" counters for a good drip edge to protect the finish below. Right, the finish will probably not last 30 years and I'll have to deal with repainting whatever I get. I doubt the stains these days hold up that long either. A lot of them look layered and baked on like the paints to me. But hopefully the cabinets themselves will be decently built and still holding together well. I don't know why that would change unless someone was hanging on the doors or overloading areas with very heavy items, as livewire mentioned. The older builder type homes from 40-50 years or so ago seem to get there. They can just look dated at this point. Maybe they all do this but Shenandoah is calling their mdf type cabinets 'engineered wood' which I think is misleading since it makes it sound like standard construction is plywood.
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tnrandy
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks for the info so far.

I wasn't impressed with cardell's website, the diamond looked better and sounded better online. We will looking at both brands tomorrow.
pence
15 years ago
I've seen Cardell and think its terrible. Uneven glazing, doors not on straight and this was in a showroom. Never heard of the others, sorry. Do a search on this site and you'll probably find comments for each of them.
tnrandy
Original Author
15 years ago
I looked at all 4 brands this weekend.

I'd rank them by looks...
1. Kabinart
2. Diamond
3. Timberland
4. Cardell

I'd rank them by construction..
1. Diamond
2. Timberland
3. Kabinart
4. Cardell

I'd rank them by costs..
1. Timberland
2. Diamond
3. Kabinart
4. Cardell
This is based on my opinion of what I saw in the showrooms.

Diamond is the only one that offers a Limited Lifetime Warranty. Not sure if that's worth much if you read it in detail.. :)
msgreatdeals
15 years ago
I just ordered Thomasville (same as Diamond) after a 3 1/2 month search of the following cabinet makers. Wellborn, Schuler, Kraftmaid, Merrilat, and a local cabinet maker. I liked things about each of the cabinets that I looked at but overall, I felt the best value for us was with Thomasville. They have been making furniture for 100 years. Fabulous pricing due to a on going special at the time.
kompy
15 years ago
msgreatdeals, Thomasville does not make the cabinets. Thomasville just licensed their 'name' to Home Depot.
The cabinets are made by American Woodmark.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thomasville
tnrandy
Original Author
15 years ago
kompy,
You are correct they do not make them but the article says "Under the agreement, Thomasville, a subsidiary of Furniture Brands International, maintains full control over product development and quality standards for the cabinets."
caryscott
15 years ago
Thomasville is now made by MasterBrand (Diamond and\or Kemper). The use of the name Thomasville is a licensing arrangement between Thomasville and Home Depot (as previously stated). Initially in 2000 American Woodmark was making the face frame cabinets and Masco was making the frameless through Mill's Pride but since 2003 it has been a MasterBrand product exclusively with the frameless only available in Canada.

I think it is quite possible that Furniture Brands has a role in product approval but I doubt they play much of a role in the quality control of a product being produced in factories owned by another company. The production arrangement is between HD and MasterBrand not MasterBrand and Furniture Brands.

We were advised if my Mom had wanted a stained finish she would be better off with the Canadian line that slots in under Thomasville as the finish quality was much more consistent. For paint we were told Thomasville did nicer paint finishes than Kraftmaid.

Here is a link that might be useful: HD press release
caryscott
15 years ago
This company provides the contruction details in their gallery and features actual kitchens not sets. Most are 50 grand + kitchens many with particlebord construction - can you tell the difference?

Other things to consider are what is the thickness of particleboard, what is the ANSI rating (M-S to M-2 are considered furniture grade) and how are the cabinets constructed.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cabico gallery
southernstitcher
15 years ago
We saw some particle board in cabinets (none talked about in this thread) that you could just gouge with your fingernail! We visited a spec home with the cabinets installed with no counter tops yet. I was horrified to say the least.
Then, there were particle board samples of Kraftmaid and others on display at kitchen cabinet stores that looked and felt very solid.

KD, Cabinet Makers, Expert Advise, plywood box or not?

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