Not an expert, but did have granite installed and talked to quite a few different installers. None of them would have required extra support for a 6.5" overhang and nothing I've read here on GW suggests that you would need extra support. Is it a particularly soft granite?

Hi thanks for the response...

We were looking at bianco antico, but actually havent decided on a stone yet. not sure if they are soft so is that also a factor? We were looking at both 2cm and 3cm, so at what point is extra support needed? I did read somewhere looks like it is 8" for 2cm and 12 for 3cm? thanks again!!

You only have 6.5" of overhang? I assume no seating...you should have at least 12" of clear leg room for seating at a bar-height counter (42" high).

For only 6.5", you shouldn't need additional support.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)

No support needed for that overhang, but with that little of an overhang, why have it at all? It will not serve any useful purpose at all, and all it will do is increase the cost of your granite. If you want you wall to be topped with granite, then do a 1" overhang on all sides. If you want actual seating space, you're going to have to design and engineer more room than that--with support for the granite.

Thanks for all the responses.

Our bar top was designed the way it is now, we dont really use it for seating purpose. What you guys say makes sense, our bar top sometimes end up just being a storage counter =)

I'm interestd in this also. I'm going with Baltic Brown granite and overhang of 12". Is support needed for this?

You have a 15" wide slab that is only supported for 7.5" or 50%. The center of balance is therefore on the razor edge of the wall. IMHO, you need support if you don't want it pivoting off the counter wall.

Thank you weedmeister! I was going to say the same thing...overhang would not be needed IF you have 2 feet of countertop sitting on/supported by 2 feet of cabinet top; however, as you pointed out there is only about 1/2 of the granite supported, so YES, you better support that!

Thanks all for your advices.... everything you guys say makes sense... uh oh, i am back at where i started =(

I agree, you do need to support this piece of stone. Not because it might crack. Any overhang of 10" or less is going to be OK in that regard, but rather the very real danger of the stone tipping and falling off the narrow 7" wall. If some one leans on the overhang with enough weight, a very large and heavy piece of granite just might slip off and injure someone. A few small brackets would allivate this danger.

It's possible that due to the shallow depth you do need support. I was thinking of a full-depth counter...i.e., 26" or so over standard cabinets b/f having an overhang.

But, isn't it going to be secured to the wall for the entire length of the stone, not just at a point or two?

If Kevin or StoneGirl are around, perhaps they'll chime in.

It actually doesnt, i mean, the only place that is attached to the wall is the one side which is 15". The countertop dimension is 107"x15".

So I think the verdict is yes, I do need support because of the skinny wall the stone is sitting on =)

From the calls i made to the installers, doesnt seem to be an expensive addition, so i guess i will just add the support, better safe than sorry.

Paintpanther-

the answer to your question depends on the thickness
of the stone that you are using... and the rule of 6 & 10...

MIA (Marble Institute of America) specs call for
corbels to be used:

on 2CM thick stone when the overhang has
6 inches of more of UNSUPPORTED span...

and

on 3CM thick stone when the overhang has
10 inches of more of UNSUPPORTED span...

IF you are having the stone fabricated out of 3CM thick stone -
I think that you will be OK with no supports....
HOWEVER - IF on the other hand, you are using 2CM thick
stone - I would suggest that you use corbles.

remember............

"Countertops are for plates and glasses...
NOT
Feet and dirty Assets!!!!" (you get the gist of this...)

HTH

kevin

We would like to go with 3cm and actually we thought we must have support for 3cm because it is heavier. So if i understand it correctly, heavier actually makes it more stable? Ahhhh, I see, not that i understand it but good to know.

Thanks for chiming in Kevin, have read a lot of your posts in the forum, very generous of you to offer free and useful advices!!

Again I mention, the problem is not one of, "Does the granite need to be supported because of the possiblity it might crack?" Kevin's guidlines are in response to whether or not a piece of stone can support it's own weight without cracking, not about whether it might fall.

In PAINTPATHER'S example: A long thin piece of granite, which will weigh over 200 lbs, is balanced on a 7" wall. The only thing keeping that stone on top of the wall is gravity. It won't take much to push the stone beyond it's balance point and have it fall. Brackets of some form will help to widen the base and aid in keeping the slab in place.

The 3 cm is much stronger.

This is a basic beam type problem, with strength increasing with the cube of the height (in this case the thickness), so it is ~3.4 times stronger (1.5^3).

Folks-

Let me just point out that the stone (3CM most likely in this
application) will need to be adhered to the pony wall and the
cabinet assembly with an adhesive of some sort - latex caulk,
silicone, polyester or epoxy (I use latex caulk and sometimes
silicone) to "freeze" the stone assembly to the substrate.

The stone (IMHO) should never be just "set dry" on any substrate.

The overhang intel from MIA is indeed designed to deal with
the fulcrum effect that a piece of stone will develope - when
more of it's mass is not supported by a substructure - ie:
pony wall or cabinet assembly....

I am NOT an Engineer.. (I should have been cuz I love the
structural stuf and all) but alas - I am just a Fab-Ri-Mi-Cator
that's been doing this Natural Stone gig for 24 1/2 years now.
and I have seen, done & learned a lot over the years.
We are ALL in the learning curve at all times - it is just
that some of us have been in the curve longer than others.....

Thanks for all of your kind words - I hope that you'll
benefit from my ramblings. You can also check out my
consumer education website at natural stone 101.com. I
will be posting pod-casts on various topics on Natural Stone
that are brought up by consumers.

kevin

Just thought it will be easier with a picture:

http://www.bebemau.com/barcounter.jpg

Warning, MESSY!!

So currently we still have our laminate countertop, the far end is where it is attached to the wall, and the right side, attached to the kitchen cabinets.

Sorry havent posted images here before.... this may be easier

I agree with live_wire_oak...why even have that overhang at all?? I would rather see it either a one-inch overhang on both sides or a larger overhang that would allow either knee room for seating or shallow cabinet space underneath. It doesn't seem logical to worry about supporting an overhang that serves no useful purpose. But, perhaps I'm missing something?

Not an expert by any means but just went through a similar situation. My bar was 100" long x 16" wide sitting on a 5" wall. 2" overhang on one side and 9" overhang on the other (not much of a purpose). I had my granite fabricators extend the total width to 20". Now it has a 13" overhang which is just enough for barstools. This didn't add much at all to the expense of the granite. It was recommended to me to use three supports. I found decorative (stained wood) corbels at my local Hobby Lobby at half price. This was an inexpensive solution that added a nice touch.

Yes the responses in this thread made us think about the option of extending the overhang. The problem is, we are working with limited material ...sigh.... Unless we find a bigger slab, we most likely cant spare anything for a bigger counter..

You could do the raised surface in a different, complementary granite... Then you wouldn't be constrained by what you have at-hand. It would allow you to consider a bigger overhang for seating or cabinets.

You might even consider a different counter material altogether....

It is actually our budget that is limited =)

Anything that cant fit on one slab means another slab, almost doubling the cost. I must say it is a very tempting idea though!!

Don't mean to make a big deal about this, but there is a definite safety factor here. The MIAS's own guidlines state that: "in no case may the cantilevered portion represent more than 1/3 of the width of the countertop."

In this case, the cantilever was purposed to be 6.5" of a 15" slab, supported by a 7" wall. By any measurement this is far too much overhang to keep the slab safely on top of the wall. No adhesive, calk, or epoxy has the strength to stop a 200 pound hunk of granite from falling once it is pushed beyond its center of balance. Even if the bond were secure, and the adhesive did not fail; whatever the substrate was, would simply rip off and fall with the slab.

PAINTPANTHER's example, as described, requires extra support.

thanks svwillow1.

We talked to our installer, it doesnt cost us much to add the support. So we decided to add it, wont harm will it =)

Thanks to everyone who chimes in, really appreciate all the info!!!