It is difficult for me and other non-christians, who try our hardest to give this religion all the honor and respect that we know it is due, to get past the appearance that every christian thinks he has found out exactly what is wrong with everyone else and is desperate to tell them what God thinks of them.

If every so-called christian in America would take one year off from judging others I think they would bring more people into the church in that one year than all the people they have driven away in the past fifty.

RE: Number 4, Never Spank Your Child. That paragraph reads as if the writer assumes those who don't spank, also don't discipline in any other way.

This article is very sweeping in its generalizations, and judgments. Christianity teaches, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Whoever wrote this article didn't get to that part of the bible, I guess.

And the writer LIED TO SUPPORT HIS POINT! HE SAID DR. SPOCK HAD NO CHILDREN. HERE IS AN EXCERPT FROM THE DOC'S BIO!

"The man who would become, somewhat to his own astonishment, the most trusted pediatrician and best-selling author of all time was born in New Haven, Connecticut, on May 2, 1903. As the eldest of six children, Benjamin McLane Spock was immersed in the world of childcare at an early age, helping to change diapers, babysit, feed, and otherwise attend to his siblings. His parents, a prominent lawyer and a devoted mother, ran a strict household and harbored high expectations for their offspring.
Benjamin Spock readily absorbed these standards, attending Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts, and then Yale University, like his father before him. At Yale, Spock studied literature and history and excelled in athletics, even earning a spot on the Olympic rowing crew that won a gold medal at the 1924 games. He attended the Yale School of Medicine for two years and then transferred to Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York, where he graduated first in his class in 1929. By that time, he had married Jane Cheney and soon had two sons, Michael and John."
reference: Bio

Not that I'm necessarily a Spock devotee (except for the vulcan), but I think if this pastor wants to win me over, and wants to win people to Christianity, he better:
a) STOP generalizing and judging, and
b) STOP lying

Now if you want to rear you children in the correct way go to: http://www.fbbc.com/messages/hyleshowtorearchildren.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.fbbc.com/messages/hyleshowtorearchildren.htm

Anita & Trekaren, please don't judge all Christians by this type of tripe. I find that fundamentalist denominations tend to be very judgemental, and also to make up facts to suit the point they are making.

There are denominations and Christians who are intellectual, open-minded, & non-judgemental. The "theme of the year" for the United Methodist Church is "Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors" and the church LIVES this motto. I find that churches who are more concerned in DOING Christ's work, not just worshiping Christ, are more open-minded and not judgemental.

Just a small defense of Christians - myself being one - because you can't judge any group as a whole.

I am christian, also. Raised southern baptist (how right-wing is that?) and right now attending a catholic church in GA. I am concerned that these web pages and pastors are presenting christianity in a very bad light.

I have always been considered open-minded, because I will hold everything up to the light before I take it to the bank. Even with people whose opinions generally sync with mine, I take them with a grain of salt, and validate as much as I can against facts.

Holding opinions up to the light of day and looking for facts versus human opinions helps prevent being too judgmental. If you make up your mind first, then go looking for people who agree with you to back your opinion up, then the facts are going to be skewed. You should first go into it with an open mind and a goal (say, how to educate or how to discipline), then do research to gain information on which to base your final opinion.

These are my favorite parts from Arkansas's link on properly raising children, chapter on making a lady out of a girl:

This means that she should never be allowed to argue at all. She should become submissive and obedient. She must obey immediately, without question, and without argument. The parents who require this have done a big favor for their future son-in-law

and:
3. She should not be allowed to play alone with boys. The parents should see to it that she plays with other girls. This is important for many reasons. She should play only with toys that are uniquely for girls. This, by all means, should include dolls, doll clothes, housecleaning equipment, dishes, pots and pans, etc. She should participate in sports enough to become coordinated but she should not excel in sports. If later she marries a man who is very athletic, she could become more proficient in some particular sport that he enjoys, but if she becomes an expert in a sport that is usually associated with men and boys, it could prove embarrassing to her future husband, and for that matter, it could entice her to become more masculine than she ought to be.

The wise lady will never "take over" the conversation. She will add just enough to make a valuable contribution and to show her intelligence on the subject, but she will always make her man feel that he is the more knowledgeable.

Though she should not be a football fanatic she should know enough about football to enjoy watching the game with her boyfriend, fiancÂ', or husband, if he so chooses. It should be obvious to him that she is enjoying the game and that she is knowledgeable about it, but that he can teach her even more.

The Bible teaches that a woman is made not for the limelight but to complement and supplement. Proverbs 32:23 says, "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land."

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Thanks for the laugh! Oh, that was sooo good! I have to dry my eyes and pick myself up off the floor I'm still laughing so hard at that part!

Stephanie! Good one! Who wants to go pry the matchbox cars out of my daughter's hands and take away her racetrack!
Who wants to tell DH that his plans to raise our DD to know how to change the oil on her own car have to be scrapped?

TREKaren:

I'll trade them for my son's broom/dustpan and babydoll!

I better not let my husband see this thread. If he reads it he might become embarassed by my extensive knowledge of football and hockey. Right now he doesn't realize that he should be embarassed.

Mommabear

Momma_Bird:

I also understand that most parents, regardless of denomination, do not need someone else to tell them how to raise their kids. Especially when the advice is a bunch of nonsense.

Mommabear

Are you all tomboys?

I learned to appreciate different things in my life. Some are traditionally associated with females, some are not. If you need a name for that fine.

I CAN tell you that my son was extremely pleased that I was able to explain football to the other mothers who had less familiarity with the game (he started playing last year). You can read that PROUD that his mom knew, not embarassed.

Mommabear

Call me a tomboy if you like. But I think of it more as open-minded unlimitedness.

If I'm into cars, great! I was also the most avid doll-lover you ever saw! I still have my childhood doll collection and have passed many to my DD.

Why are many chefs men? Hmmm??? What if their parents had said they aren't allowed in the kitchen? Would they appreciate going out into the world unable to even boil water for Kraft Macaroni?

Should our daughters not be able to have some education about how cars work so they aren't taken advantage of?

No, I don't think I'm a tomboy at all. I'm well-rounded!

Limitations on toys, etc, lead to limitations in many aspects of a child's upbringing, leading to a young adult unprepared for the world.

No problem,
I recalled a girl in my class of 1962 who was physically stronger than most of us guys and we may have kinda referred to her as a tomboy. She was a good Christian girl whom I did date a few times. The last account I have had of her is that she is a missionary in South America. She is married and has several children. She got a lot of her strength by having to work on the farm such as picking cotton, chopping cotton, and various hard work.
I have learned to appreciate people such as she.

WAIT! Aren't those BOY CHORES? Are you sure she didn't turn into a man-hating baby-killer?

Ugh I read the section on raising girls and the one on raising boys. Do you really believe that gardenboy? That boys should be taught to beat other boys up and girls should be taught to hide their intelligence? It doesn't seem to me that the man who wrote that wrote it out of love for God. It seems like he wrote it out of fear - fear that if people live in a world where equality of opportunity, respect for diversity, and non-violence are the principal values, he won't be listened to - or people won't fear him and the judgement that he thinks God has given him permission to pass.

I know momma bird and trek karen, that most christians are wonderful and loving people. Every movement or group of people has a few members who seem to be set on embarassing all the others. My fiancee is even christian. I am baha'i and my religion teaches that all the major world religions are the word of God.

"All these divisions we see on all sides, all these disputes and opposition, are caused because men cling to ritual and outward observances, and forget the simple, underlying truth. It is the outward practices of religion that are so different, and it is they that cause disputes and enmity -- while the reality is always the same, and one. The Reality is the Truth, and truth has no division. Truth is God's guidance, it is the light of the world, it is love, it is mercy. These attributes of truth are also human virtues inspired by the Holy Spirit."

You have to agree with parts of some of them. Right?

Agree with parts of all the religions? Of course. I think all religious people agree with parts of all the other religions.

I don't agree that God judges people who choose one religion over another.

I think that a lot of Americans who view themselves as Christian don't believe that religions should proselytize. It is hard to reconcile that belief with what the bible says. Maybe that is part of the reason for the decline in church attendance.

OK, AKgardenboy, I will have to give in and say I do agree with a few of the points - especially, that parents should not scream at their children, that parents should not turn over responsiblity of raising thieir children to schools/daycare, that parents should give children chores, that parents should not do everything for their children. I re-read the first piece to try to find something with which I could agree, and I did find these things.

I haven't read the second piece - started to, but just couldn't stomach it.

And no, I am not nor was I ever a tomboy. I was about the girliest girl you've ever seen. But, I never hid my "smarts", I never let a guy win when I was better at something than him, I can use tools (including power tools) much better than my husband & I'm a better money manager than DH. I never hid my abilities to make a guy feel smarter or better. So, if that makes me a tomboy, then I'll gladly accept the classification.

It is something of a manly thing to NOT let a lady out do him. It is hard to be humble when you are almost perfect in every way. LOL Have a good day.. I was just joking....I am happily married and I am very proud of my wife and she has alot of strengths I do not have. Family, church, school, and community should all be considered as a team. When one wins we aLL WIN.

I taught Preschool and you will find many times the little boys that come in play with the dolls. Many would be so cute they would play with the doll and call them their little brother, or their baby and take on what I think they saw their fathers doing at home. Now they also played with cars and other items during play time but dolls and dishes were also played with. The boys would cook, perhaps their Dad's did as many mother work.

The little girls would play with the cars,large and small, large fire engines and of course build with blocks and building toys. I could say all in all that both Male and female children would sometimes play with all the toys.

My mother years taught(1960's) a Sunday school class for Preschooler and I can remember her telling me that the little boys would run to the dolls,during play time, while the girls would run to the cars. She said she thought this was because many times back then they may not have had these toys that were considered only for the opposite genders at their homes, so they really enjoyed getting to play with them on Sunday :o) She was a very conservative lady, but she thought this was fine.

I agree.

Lynn, my 5 year old DS's favorite part of preschool is the "housekeeping center" - play kitchen with dolls, play highchair, play stroller, etc. He wants to save every empty plastic bottle to take for housekeeping, and talks about it all the time. I capitolize on this by having him help with laundry, dishes, feeding the cat, etc. Even at 5, he can scrub a pot clean, load the washer, etc! I think of it as a gift to my future daughter-in-law!

Your how to raise a child the "RIGHT" way post is a crock...pardon me but I don't think that this is the place for you to PREACH. This forum is "SCHOOL." Not "Church & SCHOOL", and with all do respect, there are some of us, who OBVIOUSLY aren't living the "RIGHT" lives according to your standards gardenboy, who DO consider the two separate institutions. (With the exception of Private Religious Schools that some families choose to have their children attend.)
I am probably the only one who is taking offense to this, and that's fine, but I don't come here to be taught about what the bible says.

I Have Christ in my heart and where I go I plan to be with Him.

Deb, I'll agree that it gets old. You can choose to be offended, or (like me) choose to be amused. We are all grown ups here, we think for ourselves, so his preaching is of no consequence to me. Certainly isn't going to change how I raise my kids or spend my Sunday mornings. I ignore most of the links, but a couple have been interesting. And this one, with its raising a lady chapter, was one of the most comic things I've ever read! He's obviously not going to stop. And if he just went away, I'd miss out on so many good laughs every day!

Takes all kinds, ya know. And in a way, this place would be kinda boring right now without Arkansasgardenboy!

I figure that the reason G@d gave me a brain is so that I could use it.

Mommabear

Stephanie, thanks...I suppose I am amused in a way because these links are plain ridicoulous ( and I can't spell that word!) Unfortunately I can't help but take some offense to some of the subjects gardenboy posts, especially when they are in support of "Spanking" kids and Corporal punishment. I know that is ONLY my point of view, and I will TRY to remain ammussed instead of offended because I enjoy this forum! THANKS!

A simple answer on How to raise a brat?
1) Give the child every material thing his/her heart desires.
2) Teach the child that he/he is "The Center of the Universe" and the most important thing there is.
3) Don't ever let the child experience any type of disappointment or defeat in Life, spare them any failures like not being Number 1 in sports or whatever. If they aren't number 1 just get them out of the activity, this is a sure way to make them a brat.
4) Don't ever discipline them in any way. You wouldn't want to crush their Little spirits. Now this will sure make them a brat.
5)Make sure you buy their friends only the "Most expensive Present." Teach him or her that Popularity can be bought.
6)Make sure the relatives know that your child is to be treated "Like a Precious Jewel with no flaws" because If you want him/her to be a brat you actually think the child is a "Precious Jewel with not flaws."
7) Ignore anyones suggestions that your child is living in an unrealistic world, I mean what do they know they have never had a child as special as yours!
8) Make sure you cater to the child's every whime.
9) Let the child "Talk back to you" after all he is just expressing him/herself.
10)Get the child use to only the very best that the Material world has to offer. No "no name brands" for him or her , and only the most expensive and entertaining. clothes, toys, electronic games money can buy, unless he/she asked for other items that aren't the most expensive. Of course this probably won't happen.

I think if you do these 10 things you will be sure to have a 'Brat' on your hands :o)

Amen

first of all... we have to think about the steps of a kid becoming a brat. what caused them to behave in such a way? kids won't listen to you.. because you're not listening to them. if you keep on tryin to control them and tell them what to do instead of letting them make their own choices, what they'll only do is go against you. instead, parents should let kids make their own decisions. so they learn from their mistakes, and they won't do the wrong thing again, so they'll grow up and make the right choices. ex. a mother said to her son that it was hot ...very hot outside, too hot actually to wear pants and a sweater. but he wanted to wear pants. his mother insisted him to wear shorts, but he refused. but his mother made him waer on the shorts, and he was mad so he wore the shorts.
ex. 2... it was hot outside, and a mother said to her son that it was hot outside. "it's really hot outside, so you might want to wear shorts". the boy refuses, and he wears pants instead. the mother doesn't argue. the boy goes outside, sweats and feels like he's dying cuz he feels so hot. now, he learns something...next time when it's hot, he'll wear shorts. :) ta da

I agree, listening to children is very, very important when teaching them in every way!:)

Generally speaking:
There are times you let kids learn the hard way. But to totally let children be boats without rudders means they are floating in the ocean waiting for someone who wants to be their rudder to take them over.

They could run into good people, well-meaning people like a teacher who will be good for them. But it could also be someone you don't want, like drug pushers, cults, gangs, etc. Don't put blinders on and think that these things don't exist in your community. Kids need to be allowed to make choices, but they should never be free from parental guidance in those choices.

Would you allow them to be free to choose to wear seatbelts, smoke, etc? How far would you take the freedom of choice?

IMO freedom of choice should be extended where possible. This would NOT include matters of health and safety (which is where seatbelts, smoking, etc. come in). That doesn't mean you don't guide them, just that you allow them to make choices different than those you would choos yourself as long as those choices don't affect health and safety. The pants/shorts is a great example of when you should allow the kids to make their own choices.

Mommabear

hehe "don't let girls play with boy toys" LOL!

Just what do you think makes it a gender specific toy? LOL!

Does this mean that you don't like boys that wear dresses? ROFLMAO !!!

What if the little girl is a lesbian? Would you then expect her to conform to rigid gender roles that have no basis in necessity?

What does gender role play have to do with the selfish demanding behavior that we call "brat like".

From reading the news as of late, with all the lawsuits and criminal charges, it looks like many Christians are pretty sick people. Not the sort of people that should have a say in raising children.

michael

Michael don't judge everybody by a few you may have read about. Not everyone is a Christian who says he/she is. You shall know them by their fruits. Just be the one yourself.... You may be the only Bible some people read.....

Don't judge them by information from various public sources? These are not rumors but published facts.

Yeah, I judge them by it. It is a matter of survival. When your throat has been slit it is a little late to assess the "fruits" in person. While I am wary of propaganda published information needs to be considered.

I have no more interest in being a Christian then in being a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or Pagan. They all profess to have special knowledge of the world from different gods. Spare me the "my god is better then their god" song.

michael

I don't think anyone is saying 'their god' is better. And the "don't judge the masses by the actions of a few" is not necessarily a religious tenet. Do you judge all accountants by the actions of Andersen? Or all CEO's by the actions of Lay? Or all cops by the actions of one 'bad cop'?

I think to do a blanket assessment based on the news, of any group of humans, assumes a lot of honesty on the part of the media.

And I have taken some of what I have read in the media, done my own research on the issue, and found that the media was spouting what would increase viewership or readership.

Aww, geee!

Ya mean we should notta be a bombing those poor muslims just because a couple of bad apples highjacked some planes and committed mass murder?

Koolaid for everyone!

michael

Go after the ones who are are involve. Why punish the whole class for the the disruption of those who are causing the disruption if the whole class is not involved in the disruption? Why kill innocent civilians? Why condemn all Christians for the sins of "so called" Christians? Moslems? Hindus?

WOW. I like the gender role mentions there michael, and your stance on these issues!

We kill whole cities of civilians because that is the way wars are fought. For as long a people continue to mix religion and government we will have crusades and jihads making certain that the world does not run out of evil.

Thank-you Flowergirl, I think forcing fake gender roles on children or even adults a cruel thing without cause or reason. It is a crutch for the weak and insecure to prop up their warped view of the world. Funny how we expect "perfect" behaviors from children while adults run aroung making loud and obnoxious demands for selfish purposes.

: )
michael

Here is a link that may be helpful....parenting by example.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.lewis.edu/~steve/tch.by.exmp.html

I loved it!! Thank you!