This plan seems to make your house extremely choppy. Everyone has to walk through the dining area of the kitchen, including guests who want to use the 1/2 bath. Plus the 1/2 bath juts into the living room in a distressing way.

Why not slide the 1/2 bath to the right, so it backs into the bit of the kitchen that is used only as a passageway? The door to the bedroom hall could then be directly opposite the front door. You won't lose much, if any, usable space in the kitchen and you'll keep traffic flowing better.

And it would be nice to add some kind of separation of the living room from the front entry. Matching the openings would be a good balance and give you a graceful entry.

Thanks for the suggestions. So here is what it looks like with the half bath moved over. (Note: front door cannot shift to the left any further as living room is over driveway/garage.)

Pros are that there is a now a clean traffic flow through the middle of the house to get to the bedrooms. Cons are that the right half of the space feels crowded containing kitchen, dining and half bath. I can't expand the dining table for larger holiday meals without blocking traffic. And I'm worried it won't feel as open/light. (We gain a lot of light in that opening that we are shifting the half bath into since it lines up with a bright bedroom window)We spend a good amount of time in the kitchen/dining so it needs to be comfortable for 5 people. Yellow line are optional walls if we want to case the living room for symmetry. Pros to casing are it's pretty and symmetrical. Cons are it might make the house feel smaller and it may limit furniture placement?

Would love more feedback on which design looks better and to case or not to case the living room in either plan...
Thanks

Take the 120K and move now instead of in 3-5 years. The plan doesn't work well enough to spend the kind of money it will take to do it. And it sounds like you are over improving for the neighborhood.

I definitely like the second design better. Traffic will flow more easily, it all seems to work together, and it doesn't have that rooming-house bath-squeezed-into-a-corner-of-the-room feel. I vote for the optional living room walls, too.

If you put a bench seat in the bay window, you could shift the table toward it by 2 1/2' or so and seat more people at holiday dinners,

On the Kitchen forum thread, you mentioned that you will lose the desk in the kitchen. Could you put a nice small desk in the living room to make up for it? Maybe a corner desk, in one of the entry-hall corners? This would also give you a small chair for extra seating when needed.

Really like the 2nd layout. Some additional ideas that can squeeze in more storage/custom look that are not expensive:

At end of left run of counter in kitchen (next to powder room) you could have a shallow wall shelving area recessed into the area between the studs above the counter, and then use this same idea in the powder room also.

Also not sure if you need a drop zone/landing area, but even an 8 inch deep shelving/hutch area on the wall in the kitchen that has the powder room behind it might work well as a day to day staging area, and could serve as a buffet or bar area during parties and holidays.

Your half bath need not be 3.5' wide, nor does the doorway to the hallway need to be directly across from the front door. I almost think you could add a tub (at least a shorter than full length one), or a shower to that 1/2 bath. If you angle the corner of the bath that intrudes into your kitchen (giving you only 36" between wall and island), you can park the toilet there with angled corner. Bump out directly across from bathhall door, to put in a sink, and put a tub/shower to the left--moving your hallway door from LR to the left a bit as well. Then, you have an "entry", a good sized LR, and the Kitchen/DR. And, people don't have to walk through the kitchen/DR to get to the bedrooms/bath.

If your job is one that will force you to move in a couple of years vs moving because this home will not meet your needs at that time, then just suck it up and deal with it as is. Or if you will be moving because you will outgrow this house, plan on not moving and doing a more extensive renovation to make this home more suitable to your long term needs. The current plan is a good one---for the kitchen. Now get the rest of the house on board with what you need and stay put.

Unless you picked this home up for 50% of current market value, you will never recoup the expenses of your plan. 100K is being conservative for an estimate here. Nor will you live in in long enough to amortize those expenses over 10 years of the additional comfort. You'll be spending a lot of money, enduring a lot of disorganization and stress, only to have to start the "decorating for staging" process and move.

Can you bump out your entry a few feet? Put the front door where your covered porch is now? This would let you move the opening to the kitchen down, so the table is centered in the arch...and you could add a few feet to the half bath...and make it a full bath. Actually, a small bath, with single sink and toilet on one side...and tub/shower combo with maybe a small linen cabinet on the other...would not take up very much more space.

If you did this, yes the entry into the living room would be a few feet smaller, but you could use an L-shaped sectional where the sofa is now, lose the chair by the entry and put a chair/ottoman, by the fireplace. Put a flat screen over the fire and you have an inviting family space :)

Moving the archway towards the door would also give you more room for chairs, around your dining room table and the table would be your focal point, rather than the island, from the entry and living room. Just another idea...

A 7'x9' breakfast area is too small for a family.

Why does everyone insist on aping the island kitchens they see on reality shows of multi-millionaires such as Hogan Knows Best. (That house was 17,000 s.f.)

I would not do plan 1 because it's a choppy layout, the bathroom protruding into the livingroom space doesn't make sense and I do not like my eating area in the kitchen.

Plan 2 makes the flow a little better, but now you have the bump out in the kitchen for the bathroom and the smaller eating area looks like an afterthought - like oh wow, now where do we eat?

If this isn't your forever house, I would spruce it up a little to make you happy and deal with the things you don't like.

Domino- Can you post the plan, with the entry between the kitchen and dining area? Just an idea :)

Thank you all so much for the feedback. Your opinions are as conflicted as I feel!

hollysprings - wish we could move but we could only afford a fairly similarly priced house even with our reno $$ on top. houses in my area are very $$.

kirkhall and lavendar - I will try the options you suggested. We did try a full bath option (4.5x7 and 6x6) but with the walls it protruded too much across the width of the house (for me anything that visually started to block the fireplace just felt wrong.) Here it is...

And that seems to be where i get stuck - it's so frustrating that a $120K (?) remodel still won't meet ALL of our needs. The bath situation will be somewhat improved but not perfect, the kitchen will be functionally and aesthetically improved (but no bigger) and the dining area will continue to be small and in fact possibly less desirable for some people since it will be in the kitchen.

lavender - Here is a rough up of the entry between kitchen and dining:

I am coming full circle back to thinking about just updating the kitchen in its current footprint and continuing to suffer the bathroom situation. I think it would be maybe half the cost or a little more (60-70k?)? And I know I can be sure to get some of that back in resale. Both options are still expensive and both don't meet all of our needs. SIGH...

Domino- Do you have a daylight basement or egress windows? Could the older kids move downstairs and use that bath and easy access to the family room? Maybe keep the master, one bedroom for the three year old and have the study in the other bedroom? This would give you more privacy in the main bathroom and you wouldn't have to add the half bath.

Then, you could remodel the kitchen or just make it work better, for now. Sometimes, rearranging your spaces and how you use them is the easiest and cheapest way to help you home 'live bigger' without actually remodeling.

If you like the dining room with the living room, just take down the wall between the table and kitchen and make it a nice, open plan. It would make your home feel bigger and the table wouldn't be in the kitchen or living room, but between them :) {{gwi:2067341}}From Kitchen plans

What I meant was to turn the tub 90 degrees from what you have there. So, on the left side, the length of the tub, on the right side, the sink/toilet, and in the middle, the floor space and door. This way, the bathroom only has to protrude into your visual space a total of 5 1/2 feet (not the length of the vanity, toilet, and tub width). Does that make sense/help?

Or, take your 4.5 x 7 drawn there, and turn that whole thing 90 degrees.

I posted this idea in domino's kitchen forum post and she asked me to post it here to get thoughts from this forum's members.

Here's what I did.

I shifted the entry to the right and pivoted the bathroom and placed it against the stairs. I also moved the sink and toilet to the lower wall so that they aren't on view from kitchen or front door when the bathroom door is open. Moving the bathroom against the stairway wall eliminates the need for a second aisle/hallway, freeing up more space for living spaces.

This move also creates a master suite "wing" (notice that I added a door to make that area more private) and a kids' "wing". I didn't play with reconfiguring the master suite area but you certainly can change things around now that it's the designated grown-up area.

I closed the opening to the kitchen a little so that it wasn't quite as much on display from the front door but still open enough to allow easy flow between the two spaces. Beyond that, I really didn't play with the kitchen lay-out. I couldn't make out the dimensions of the space beyond 14 feet & something and 12 feet & something. But if this idea interests you and you want to play with the kitchen space some more, let me know.

This idea is definitely the costlier option but it gives you a lot of (eek, quoting a HGTV show name!) bang for your buck.

In case anyone wants to see domino's thread in the kitchen forum....

Here is a link that might be useful: Can I make my existing kitchen footprint work?

So..thanks to Lisa's ideas I am now down to these two options. They both include a full bath (hurrah!) which really makes the house more functional for us (it would be a 4 bed/3 bath)and I think we would stay longer - maybe even the long haul if the economy doesn't pick up. But I am still waffling on which layout is preferable so give me your thoughts!

Plan A:

Pros of this Plan:
Spacious island with seating
Slightly better kitchen storage?
Very open flow

Cons of this Plan:
No real entry - walk into middle of dining and kitchen
Dining area "floats"
Table is a bit of a hike from kitchen
Curb appeal? Either flat facade with popout porch or a popped out front door area which seems very strange and isn't common around here

PLAN B

Pros:
more defined entry with symmetrical casings to frame living room and kitchen/dining
Table close to food
Curb appeal: bay window, front door set in

Cons:
More casual (table in kitchen)
No island seating/slightly smaller kitchen
Not sure whether people at table could interact with those in living room

Would love input from you all!

I like Plan B better. I'm not 100% sure why but I think it's because:

* The idea of an eat-in kitchen makes more sense to me than an eat-at-bar + dining room.
* The living room & kitchen are a little more separated without being isolated from each other - which I think is ideal. Plan A has too much open-ness IMHO.
*Directly across from the front door you have something drawn in there - "Hall Table" perhaps? I think that would be a good landing zone for "stuff" when you come home from school/work, and I think everyone NEEDS a landing zone. Unless, of course, you are all fastidiously organized and put your things away the instant you walk in (in which case I want whatever you're drinking so I can pick up the same habit).

Last bit of advice - are you on good terms with the real estate agent who sold you this house? She might be able to estimate the value of it today & what it would be with the renos. Our agent stopped by recently to help us through the remodel or move decision & she gave us good advice about modifying things a bit to increase resale value if we reno, and she admitted that it's going to be hard to replace what we have today (the yard & commuting location) based on current inventory on the market ... but she's going to look for us.

Good luck!
-Pam

If you need to get more for your money from this addition, the first step is to show the property setback limits (if they are an issue), the views, public/private access, and the roof plan. Photos would be helpful too.

I also like plan 2; for many of the same reasons as Pam. (although, I would switch the location of the hall table and piano...but that is me.) I'm glad you got it figured out--getting that bath in there!

I like plan B, also. I have 2 thoughts about the kitchen. Would you consider a box window rather than a bay? It would give you a little more space. If you made it floor to ceiling it would add to floor space without being considered changing the footprint. You can cantilever up to 2'.

For the kitchen island, I've seen some lately that are only 2'wide, but seem to do the job. Could you get away with 2'by 5, parallel to the table? I forget what the rule is for space around an island, but I imagine the 2' x 5' would violate it in this space. Depending on how much it breaks that rule, though, it would give you more space to walk around.

I can understand questioning the risk/reward of doing this project, but I think adding a bath and improving the kitchen are things that people really want. You are adding functionality in categories that typically have a high rate of return. Without doing the math, it looks like the kitchen will be about 40% bigger, which is a big deal IMHO.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. I can't tell you how helpful it is to get out of my own head on these issues.

pam - great input. My realtor said the kitchen definitely needs updating (although she doesn't like the idea of giving up the dining room area) and we just had the house appraised. I know we won't get our money back but we're partly remodeling for us since it looks like we'll be here longer than planned. (Getting 50% back would be ideal)Yes - I did draw in a "hall table" and maybe there is also room for a tiny bench/drop area on the left of the front door if I build a little wall there (full or half).

renovator - Overview of the lot is below. We are already past our side setbacks on the back corners which means we could only bumpout in the middle of the back of the house. We did not seriously pursue this given the house's layout (it would effect almost every room on both floors in a weird way) and the fact that there is a raised flagstone patio along the back of the house (with steps down to a small lawn) which is one of its nicer points. The yard is small but a nice point of the house and with 3 kids we use it. ANd we knew we were updating the kitchen so to rip out both ends of the house sounded $$$.

The "views" are mainly from the back of the house. The front of the house is close to a street and not too private, but we had space to push out on the porch and a little on one side of the house which this plan uses. House is 2 stories on a hill (bottom levels has office, bath and family room with french doors to patio). Hill slopes down from right to left on these plans and from front of house to back. I am having trouble uploading an elevation. And what kind of pictures would help? Interiors? Here is a pic of the house:

kirkhall - thanks for your vote and for encouraging me to push the full bath! I can't tell you how exciting it is to contemplate not sharing a bathroom with 3 children...

elizawhyza - Talk to me about the box window...the original plan (if you scroll up to my first post) actually has a box bumpout of 1.5 feet (with a bay window) that the table is moved towards. The reason I changed it to bay in this version was 1) I centered the table (for several reasons) and 2) I lost my island stools and I really wanted a seating option that was NOT the table for people to "hang" in the kitchen. I also thought I could build in storage underneath the window seat and also use it as an end banquette if ever necessary for bigger dinners. But - do you think it would really make the space feel bigger to do a box window? What would you put in that space? I will definitely play with the island size. I can't go longer than 4 feet parallel to table but I can go down to 2 or 2.5 feet across and would definitely consider that for more room for 5 people to get around in there...

Appreciate all your comments!! Keep them coming...

I think your realtor has a point about losing the dinging room if you go for an eat-in kitchen. But on the other hand, you don't have to have everything to attract buyers, you need the most important things they are really looking for. I think going to 3 bathrooms & creating a dedicated master bathroom will attract more buyers than having a dedicated dining room.

Seeing the picture of your house helps. It's cute but it won't stop traffic (neither will our house). So I think you want to focus on making it feel really good when you first walk in. Most people decide to buy a house when it creates an emotional reaction of "Wow, I really love this" ... assuming it meets most of their criteria (bedrooms, bathrooms, location). The "Wow" feeling can over-ride all sorts of wishlist items, like a walk-in pantry or mudroom, if those items weren't critical needs for the buyer.

One great thing about Plan A is that you have some long sightlines from the front door - it looks like you can see all the way down the hall in that plan. Plan B, OTOH, looks like you'd have a feeling of large, wide open space when you first walk in because you'd see a large living room to the left & a glimpse of a hallway to the right. BTW - we're planning a smallish tweak to our house to increase sightlines from the front door as well.

Now that I read about the lower level family room with patio doors to the outside (as opposed to a basement playroom that feels dark) ... I actually like plan A better. Before I was concerned that the living room was for TV & toys, which didn't go with eating dinner each night. But it sounds like the living room is more for adult interaction (with some stuff for the kids, but not overflowing with toys) and that's less distracting.

Last thought (sorry this is so long!) - in the kitchen it looks like you are planning a 2-tiered island. I would probably make that one level so that when you don't have people sitting there you have a lot of extra workspace. One thing I love about our current house is that the island is 3' x 8'. It's massive (to me) and I can slice, dice, and chop forever before I run out of space. Kneading bread, rolling cookies, all that stuff is never an issue. I love, love love the big island (never had one before & never understood why they're so awesome until now).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts & plans with us. Personally, we're meeting with our second choice contractor Sunday to review initial plans, get his initial estimate, and see what we need to tweak to wring out any unusually expensive stupid choices we may have made :)

Here is a picture of a box window, which differs from a bay in that it is squared off rather than angled. It lets in more light, in my opinion. If you box the whole vertical space, you can build in a seat like this one. I googled "box window" and found this image. You can do the same and see how they look from the outside.

I like the idea of the hall table that was suggested, and I also think a hutch could look great there as a focal point.

Any more feedback?

Progress update: We asked one contractor for a bid. Had a meeting - sent him all the plans and specs and...silence...for 6 weeks. Obviously he doesn't want the job. Sigh..getting ready to call someone else for a bid but still waiting for an ah ha moment on our floorplan. I am reconsidering trying to go back on the lot instead of forward for more space but the pie piece shape and setbacks are really complicating it!

Any more feedback?

Domino- Have you posted on the Smaller Homes forum? You might get some more ideas over there, too :)

I would invite another contractor or two to bid. They might have some good input. Try not to be discouraged by one contractor's behavior.

In case anyone wants to follow this and chime in I did continue the thread on the smaller homes forum...

Here is a link that might be useful: Smaller homes thread