General Framing/Load Bearing Question

17 years ago

Let me first say that we are working with an architect already, so I'm posting this question to satisfy my own curiosity while we wait (and wait, and wait) on the architect.

We plan to bump that back of our house by about 6'. Since this is a bearing wall we know that a support beam will be required. My question is this...

The second floor of our house cantilevers out approx 18"-24". When framing the addition could the new support beam be built to support the end of the cantilever as opposed to being in the location of the current outer wall of the first floor?

It would seem to me that this would make framing and eventual demolition of the existing exterior wall a bit simpler.I would also think that it would make integration of the two structures a bit more 'seamless.'

Thanks.

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Comments (6)

tryinbrian
17 years ago
Had to prolong your wait, but I would have to say possibly, but not necessarily. By doing what you suggest, the span of the existing second floor joists would be increased by the 18-24 inches cantelever. Depending on the size of those joists, this increase may result in too large of a span. Even if it is strong enough, the second floor will probably also be "bouncier" if that is an issue.

There may be other factors as well, but this is the first thing that came to my (amateur) mind.
julieann_grow
17 years ago
I've said this a number of times on the forums, but the very best planner for cost effective/creative framing and structural issues is a framing contractor. They do it all day long.

Architects, IMHO, do not always do this well. They may get it right, but not always easiest or best or most cost effective.

Per your question: a temporary wall will be build anyway to do the demo or the existing wall remain until the new one built. Without a photo, it is hard to say, but the second floor will be secured by a beam, but it may be a relatively simple one like a laminated beam that is the same depth as the ceiling joists. Or make up one on site with 2x? with plywood. Etc..there are usually a few different ways to do something in a sound manner. Comes down to cost and look.
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Thanks so much for your responses and your concerns. Let me clarify a couple things. First, the kitchen/bathroom area was added on to a two story farm type house back in the 50s. It has a slanted lean-to roof over that area. So there is no 2nd floor over this area, although there is a basement under it. The basement has a support wall that runs between the two sections directly below the load bearing wall on the main floor. Secondly, the 30" door that we took out had been framed into a larger area with a 40" header. It looked very much like it was a 36" or larger door at one time (probably the exterior door). So I think it still has enough support. However, we are not engineers or even general contractors, which is why I was asking questions. It is my understanding from talking to a local contractor that no permits are required if you are working on your own home in our area. After reading your concerns, I will call City Hall on Monday and verify this is correct. I live in a very small town in northern Montana close to the Canadian border. We do not have any engineers or architects and very few general contractors in our area. Most of the contractors are booked up for several months in advance, as we are currently in the middle of an oil-boom here. Thus we are trying to DIY. After all the concerns and warnings that you have given me, I have called a local GC that we know. While he does not have time to do any work for us, he has agreed to meet with us next week one evening and do a consult and answer some questions, and give us some direction informally. I guess that will have to do. Thanks for your warnings. I appreciate your input.
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Benjamin, I would think that an experienced builder could look at it and tell you what needs to be done right off the bat, without going to the expense of hiring an engineer. There's nothing wrong with getting a quote and then deciding to do all or part of the work yourself. The reason I asked if the original builder put up the wall, is that the work looks kind of amateurish to me. Why go to the trouble of building a wall, using that much wood and not finishing it, when a simple beam with support posts would have been much easier to do. What is on the floor over that wall? Maybe a previous owner was trying to correct a problem or trying to put in additional support for something heavy (like a waterbed). If the wall is a true bearing wall, I would think that it's also supporting another bearing wall on top of it. I'm having a bearing wall taken down on my first floor and wanted to move one of the supports for the beam that the builder is putting in. My builder told me that the support had to be there because it would sit over a support in the basement and it's important to transmit the load from above all the way to the ground.
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This is a rather meaningless guess without actually seeing the plans... but it’s the internet, what can go wrong? 16 inch deep floor truss spaced at 24 inches on center (On Center is dist from center of floor joist to center of next adjacent floor beam or joist). Double top chord bearing... Top chord is more or less the flanges or the top part of a beam (top flange, vs bottom flange, or the web... i.e. parts of a beam) or the top element in a truss. Double top chord is something I associate more with steel beam and poured concrete deck construction than with wood residential framing construction... generally means two different layers of top chords ( in a truss or joist), or top flanges (in a web-flange beam cross section). Someone would have to see the detail to interpret geometry more specifically. Top chord bearing typically means the truss or beam is supported by the underside of the top chord, instead of the bottom of the beam sitting on top of (or “bearing” on) what is beneath... Plan reading 101: These notes are about the floor system... if the ends of the above floor’s joists or trusses are supported by the framing in the wall you want to remove... (i.e. floor joists supporting the floor above are perpendicular instead of parallel to the wall you want to remove) then that wall is supporting the load of those floor joists (and the contributing area’s floor load from above floor), and you will need to replace the removed wall with a strong beam or truss for all these floor joist ends to bear on with the wall removed. Note that the replacement beam would span from one place where there is a column or vertical structure that will support the load of the above floor to another (from hardpoint to hardpoint)... length of the beam, and demolition to install the beam would therefore likely be greater than the 5 ft you seek to remove. Random guesses... without eyes actuallyon your plans.... Joe’s point that there’s the plans... and then there is investigating how it was really built/framed on site is also non-trivial
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Where are you located, HU? KSC's solution probably doesn't apply to your situation because the roof slope looks to be low. But there is a solution, and your best course of action is to seek consult from a reputable GC or engineer. I don't think you would need an engineer's report unless you want them to provide details on how to remove the wall and support the roof.
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ttfweb
17 years ago
In general, if there is not a span issue on upper floor, yes. Based on the info you have given, I dont think one way will look better than the other.
pjb999
17 years ago
Julieann, you sound like you know a lot, and I agree with you that an experienced framer knows how to get around things, but would temper that with the advice that you make sure a)framer knows the code and b) framer will follow code.

An interesting idea, making a beam on site with ply etc - sounds like you are proposing a manufactured beam, and I wonder if there'd be testing or certification requirements for such a thing.

The third possibility, especially if one's wanting to keep to the ceiling joist depth, would be a steel beam.
julieann_grow
17 years ago
There are a many ways to do a beam: (1) 2x12 (or smaller) on either side of plywood, glued and screwed. (2) Flitch plates, sandwiched the same way but where you replace the plywood with a plate of steel and thru-bolt it. (3) laminated beams (prefab) (4) other steel. These are pretty normal for building trades and framing contractors or welders make them up all day long.

In all cases, these beams must be sized to hold the load, specified as to fit, end load considered, etc. Even though beams made up by the contractor are very common, the beam for YOUR particular situation (and all others) will be very specific. For instance, these specifications are bolt size and pattern, thickness of steel, specific Simpson ties required to attach joists...that sort of thing.

In my opinion (and most building depts), an engineer is the ONLY person who should approve the structural designs with the list of all those little details and that approval is in writing, either a letter with a stamp or the architects plans with an engineer's stamp on the structural.

So, what I suggest about the framing contractor is to come up with a suggested design (for cost savings and creativity) that the engineer signs off on.
davewg
Original Author
17 years ago
Thanks for all the help - this was definitely educational. Here's to hoping the architect finally gets on to it for us.

He called me back today finally, so hopefully he'll get moving again.....

General Framing/Load Bearing Question

Comments (6)

tryinbrian

julieann_grow

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General Framing/Load Bearing Question

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