We went thru our credit union, then they converted it to a loan. Banks use to do the same thing. Since we got ripped off by a mortgage company, we won't deal with them any more. Are you in farm country? There may be help there also. Did you check with your bank.?

Hi Tracey,

We're about to build a house and will need a "construction to permanent" loan (1 closing cost). Can mortgage brokers be helpful here, or do they deal in mortgages only?

Brokers can be helpful in C2P financing, sure.

Are there disadvantages to going through a mortgage broker? I just talked to 2 local lenders and the thought of anymore-- and comparing them all--is getting overwhelming.

There used to be good, bad, mediocre and excellent mortgage brokers out there... but the credit collapse wiped out (arguably) virtually all the hucksters and salesmen, leaving pretty much only the "advisory-style" mortgage brokers as survivors. Our firm is a mortgage brokerage, and we've morphed and rolled with the punches by integrating financial planning services 3 years ago (though our client focus is still baselined on real estate as a cornerstone.)

You need to do a bit more diligence when choosing a good mortgage broker, as the broker business model tends toward smaller boutique-style shops... rather than cookie-cutter retail clerk lending operations.

For construction-to-perm (which is, in itself, a bit of a unique specialty,) I would suggest seeking references from your builder, and perhaps your local Master Builder's Association. They generally know who is trustworthy and strong in knowledge & experience.

How do mortgage brokers get paid, etc.?

Brokers may be paid in 2 ways;
A) a flat service fee you pay at the closing table (generally rolled into the loan or the down payment costs,)
B) a "back-end fee" paid by the funding bank.

Brokers are contracted with wholesale lending banks, and these banks provide their programs with a discounted wholesale interest ratesheet for the broker to use. When all the dust settles, you could have a broker do all the work for you and you would generally end up with the same final interest rate, and same final total closing costs, as if you had just gone with the retail clerks.

The major difference would be (if you shopped the professional right) you'd get much more service & elbow grease from the broker than a retail clerk... *AND* brokers are legally held to a fiduciary standard of care, meaning they are REQUIRED BY LAW to put your interests ahead of their own (whereas retail lending clerks are merely hald to a standard of "commercial suitability" which means they can get away with selling you anything they can get you to agree to without any responsibility.)

Hope that's helpful!
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Thank you for the information describing mortgage brokers more in-depth for me.

Tracey

We have a construction to permanent loan from a credit union. It was not hard to get. Since credit unions are member owned, you generally get excellent terms and service from them.

BTW, I Googled the term "retail lending clerk" and got exactly four non-duplicative hits. That should tell you something about its use in this thread.

I have a sister in law who could fit that term, although she would never use it to describe her position. She works directly for a loan officer, who is the responsible party on the lender's end of the transaction. I suggest the term retail lending clerk was deliberately used in this thread in lieu of loan officer in order to marginalize the position.

Hi creekside,

I suggest the term retail lending clerk was deliberately used in this thread in lieu of loan officer in order to marginalize the position.

Not at all! There are several different types of financial professional that operates as a loan officer, and since the OP (tracey) was specifically asking about a mortgage broker (which is also a loan officer) I contrasted that to a retail lending clerk (which is a different person who also acts as a loan officer.)

Sorry you got so frustrated with Google... its a powerful search engine, but not the end-all-be-all of understanding regulatory lending models.

You see, (hopefully not to overly repeat myself,) "retail lending clerks" (loan officers who do not work for mortgage brokerage companies, and thus have no access to multiple wholesale lending sources,) are treated differently by the regulatory regimes.

Mortgage brokers are held to a "fiduciary duty." This means that a client of a mortgage broker can expect to have that loan officer put the client's financial interests ahead of their own interests. This means that if 'program A' from wholesale provider 'A' will cost the client less, but the loan officer will be paid more for 'program B from wholesaler B'... then the mortgage broker *MUST* put the client's interests ahead of their own and place them with Program A.

Retail (bank & credit union) loan officers are not held to fiduciary standards. If a borrower goes to a retail lending clerk or loan officer that borrower cannot count on having their own best interests held above those of the loan officer (nor its individual company.) If the loan officer "sells" that borrower to take a loan that is riskier or more expensive or less advantageous than other loans at the loan officer's discretion, the law does not provide the borrower any recourse.

NOW... that's not to say that there are not EXCELLENT retail lending clerks who truly desire to act like a professional... there certainly are!

That's also not to say that there haven't been (or potentially still could be) mortgage brokers who are less than 'professional' in their financial treatment.

There's good and bad in all arenas... but fishing in the waters with the higher standards (fiduciary requirements) also *TENDS* to put the odds in favor of the fisherman.

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Pure bull Donhoff. Google found virtually nothing on your term "retail lending clerk" because it isn't in general use. In fact, it is hardly in use at all. You used it in an intellectually dishonest way.

The term in general use is Loan Officer. You could have used that term, but deliberately chose another, retail lending clerk. Moreover, you mostly just called them retail clerks, no doubt trying to equate them with minimum wage checkout clerks in peoples' minds.

I have no frustration with Google, that's more intellectual dishonesty from you. Google reports what it finds. I am frustrated with self serving deliberately misleading posts from people trying to promote their own interests.

I would greatly dispute the idea that the credit crisis wiped out the bad mortgage brokers. Many of the total bottom feeders got wiped out, but every profession has good and bad people in it. Also, while brokers do have a fiduciary responsibility, there is little to no oversight of that duty. Honest brokers work to get you the best deal. Shady brokers work to get themselves the biggest payout. You aren't going to be able to tell the difference based on anything they say. They aren't going to come out and tell you that they get a bigger payout from recommending option B than option A.

The way you protect yourself and find the best deal is to comparison shop. You are going to find a relatively large range of offers out there because different institutions have dramatically different tolerances for risk right now. If you have access to a credit union, that is usually a place to find good deals in trying economic times. If you shop rates and terms for at least 3 lenders and then talk to a mortgage broker, you should have a pretty good idea of what is available. I know it seems like a lot of work, but it could save you tens of thousands of dollars over the life of the loan.

Oh my, Creek side...

Google found virtually nothing on your term "retail lending clerk" because it isn't in general use.

... and? So what? You can parse out *anybody's* posts and try plugging terms in Google, and whether it fires up lots of hits or none at all is meaningless to the value of the communication.

In fact, it is hardly in use at all. You used it in an intellectually dishonest way.

From The Princess Bride;
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The term in general use is Loan Officer. You could have used that term, but deliberately chose another, retail lending clerk.

So far, EXACTLY true.

Moreover, you mostly just called them retail clerks, no doubt trying to equate them with minimum wage checkout clerks in peoples' minds.

Ahhh... so that explains your disdain for law clerks too, no doubt, huh?

Seriously, a clerk is simply somebody who executes what they are told. You don't get professional advice from a clerk. THAT is the distinction.

Retail clerks are basically commodity selling order-takers. There could certainly be loan officers that work for mortgage brokers who behave as clerks (but they are far rarer, as the mortgage broker model depends on finding business, rather than sitting a waiting for business to come to you.) Most loan officers that behave as clerks work in retail banks & credit unions.

Loan officers that behave as professional advisors rarely work at banks & credit unions... for virtually the exact reverse reasons as above. People who want professional advice & treatment rarely tend to seek it from a retail establishment, and certainly rarely respect the loan officers at such an establishment as professional advisors.

Google that ;~)

===================================

Hi billl,

Also, while brokers do have a fiduciary responsibility, there is little to no oversight of that duty.

True, the only real oversight with any teeth is backward-looking via audit & litigation track records.

Of course, that's still exponentially more teeth than the standards retail lending is held to (which is to say; zero.)

Honest brokers work to get you the best deal. Shady brokers work to get themselves the biggest payout. You aren't going to be able to tell the difference based on anything they say. They aren't going to come out and tell you that they get a bigger payout from recommending option B than option A.

Definitely true, which is again why lending professionals need to be shopped the same way any similar advisory professional should be shopped; character reference checks, professional background, client-base references, etc.

If you shop rates and terms for at least 3 lenders and then talk to a mortgage broker, you should have a pretty good idea of what is available.

If you shop rates & terms, you'll only be comparing blind offers from retail clerks (regardless if you include a mortgage broker, or an advisory retailer.) That's because you'd not be comparing the effects of a good advisor.

Its tantamount to phonebook shopping for insurance litigation attorneys, calling around getting "quotes" on what they think a particular case might yield in settlements. OH, and comparing their hourly fees along the way. OF COURSE, that would be ludicrous (and any quality attorney wouldn't even waste their time in the exercise anyway.)

A poorly structured loan will cost more over time and carry more risks to the owner's balance sheet than a well structured loan, and how a loan is structured depends on all the rest of the owner's financial variables. Calling around & shopping for rate/fee on a non-professionally structured (guessed) loan will potentially get you the best rate & fee for the worst loan.

In finance, details make a difference. In mortgage finance (where the numbers are large,) details make a HUGE diference.

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

"Its tantamount to phonebook shopping for insurance litigation attorneys, calling around getting "quotes" on what they think a particular case might yield in settlements. "

You are way off base in your comparison. A lawyer actually does more than quote rates. They actually have to go out an win the lawsuit. That is what separates good lawyers from bad lawyers.

For a broker, the rates and terms are it. They aren't going to come help you build the house. They just try to get you the best terms/rate on a loan. If you compare what a broker is quoting to what you can get calling a bank etc directly, you can get a good idea of whether they are actually searching options to find you the best deal. A broker is going to have access to more information about various products than the loan applicant. They should be able to find at least as good of a deal as a borrower would by calling around. That is the minimum standard that shows a broker is "decent." It doesn't mean that the broker is excellent and getting the buyer the best possible deal, but it is a good indication that the broker is taking their fiduciary responsibilities serious and not just lining their own pockets.

The bottom line is that the only way to know if you are getting a good deal / good advice is to compare. The only way to compare is to do the legwork yourself. A broker may be of great benefit to you, but the only way to know is if you have a baseline to compare their work against.

billl,

You are way off base in your comparison. A lawyer actually does more than quote rates. They actually have to go out an win the lawsuit. That is what separates good lawyers from bad lawyers.

EXACTLY the same with financial advisors. A good advisor has to know how to find all the relevant variables in your balance sheet, has to know all the relevant options currently available in the markets, has to understand the effects of structuring the market variables relative to your personal variables (and the specific financial outcomes you desire,) and add a current market-based awareness to the analysis.

You can't compare that by calling around for "rates."

If you want to shop clerks, your system will suffice just fine. If you want professional services, you'll fail.

Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Dave - you are confusing the idea of financial adviser with a mortgage broker. I know you have made a business by combining the two, but they are separate services for most consumers. A mortgage broker is going to provide (hopefully) a quote on a loan with the best rates/terms. That is it.

Best of luck to you in your business, but you are providing misleading information to the vast majority of people who might use a mortgage broker.

billl,

There is no confusion. Some mortgage brokers perform as financial advisors, just as some stock brokers do, some insurance producers do, some accountants do, and some attorneys do....

Of each of the above, SOME do not perform as professional advisors.

If you want a professional financial advisor in regards to the (generally) largest degree of structured real estate leverage, and its effects on your finacnial life, you need to find competent professional financial advisors trained & licensed in that realm.

You're simply wrong about my info being "misleading." You've shown no contrary evidence to my information... you simply keep squawking (without explaining why or where you are coming from.)

Not really all that confusing (or it shouldn't be.)

Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

As usual dave, you miss the point and just ramble about your own business ideas. The OP is talking about going to mortgage broker. The vast majority of mortgage brokers happen to broker mortgages - that is it. Hence the name. They aren't financial planners. By now, we all realize that you sell both services and make every effort to promote your business model on these forums. Hence the "Leverage Planner" tag instead of "Mortgage Broker" as you used to post on other boards.

However, you are being misleading by telling the OP that a mortgage broker is going to perform a wide array of financial planning services. You've made this your business model, but if the OP goes into a mortgage broker, the chances are they are going to be presented some loan options. They will have various fees, interest rates and conversion terms etc. The OP will have to take the responsibility of comparing all the options and seeing which one is the best for their particular circumstances.

"A poorly structured loan will cost more over time....." What's an example of a poorly structured loan? I pay closing costs (I realize banks will vary); I get an interest rate for a specified term; I get the amortization schedule; I pay the monthly payments. Other than the varying closing costs between banks, what's not black-and-white about the rest of it? Am I missing something?

All I want is to be able to compare closing costs (total cost needed at closing as well as individually itemized items) and the actual interest rate.

Hi Tracey_b,

"A poorly structured loan will cost more over time....."
What's an example of a poorly structured loan?

A) Putting too much cash infusion into a loan when you don't have sufficient reserves set aside,
B) Taking a higher interest rate on a longterm fixed loan in order to get lower closing costs,
C) Taking an amortization burden that consumes your cashflow faster than your better-performing savings/investment accounts,
Etc. etc. etc.... there are many ways a loan can be made into a financial anchor around your neck, rather than integrated into what you are trying to achieve.

I pay closing costs (I realize banks will vary); I get an interest rate for a specified term; I get the amortization schedule; I pay the monthly payments. Other than the varying closing costs between banks, what's not black-and-white about the rest of it? Am I missing something?

See above, you're missing quite a bit if that's all you're looking at, and you think none of the variables make any difference over time.

All I want is to be able to compare closing costs (total cost needed at closing as well as individually itemized items) and the actual interest rate.

If that's all you want, dialing 3 retail loan clerks (regardless of business model; broker, banker or credit unioner) ought to satisfy fine. You implied in your original post that you were getting overwhelmed and (assumedly) were considering hiring a mortgage broker to help you.

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

billl,

As usual dave, you miss the point and just ramble about your own business ideas.

Uhhh, I've been "on point" at every post. You, on the other hand, continue to whine offmark, and are now trying to add an attack that is completely misleading & outright dishonest.

The OP is talking about going to mortgage broker. The vast majority of mortgage brokers happen to broker mortgages - that is it. Hence the name. They aren't financial planners.

And that is PRECISELY what I addressed in the very first response.

By now, we all realize that you sell both services and make every effort to promote your business model on these forums. Hence the "Leverage Planner" tag instead of "Mortgage Broker" as you used to post on other boards.

My "tag" was suggested by the board monitors long ago, before I formally launched our website of that name. My contributions are always non-solicitous, and I've always abided by our community's TOS. I've also *never* given critical advice hiding behind anonymity, I have always been back-checkable (and I know many have done exactly that.)

I *CAN* give credible advice publically *BECAUSE* I am willing to disclose who I am, what I do, how I am authorized, etc.

However, you are being misleading by telling the OP that a mortgage broker is going to perform a wide array of financial planning services.

Here's where you are being dishonest (and no, I won't give you the benefit of doubt of simply being dumb!)

I have made no such assertion in this thread, nor elsewhere.

You've made this your business model, but if the OP goes into a mortgage broker, the chances are they are going to be presented some loan options. They will have various fees, interest rates and conversion terms etc. The OP will have to take the responsibility of comparing all the options and seeing which one is the best for their particular circumstances.

While this is true, the degree of proper-fit of the structured recommendation will vary among professionals... same as with any other financial advisors.

The quality of financial service you get is the quality you shop for. If you don't want professional financial advice and figure you can do it on your own, there's usually plenty of ways for you to try... its the same in taxation, law, stocks, real estate, and on.

In each specialty you can quite easily lose amazing amounts from small mistakes, and its no different in collateralized leverage.

If you *DO* want professional support, it pays to do your diligence.

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

(PS. Among other areas, I am trained and licensed in residential and commercial construction and renovation financing... I am highly qualified to advise clients in this arena, *HOWEVER* I choose not to practice this specialty. My contributions in this thread are enitirely that, contributions. Take if you want 'em, pass if you don't... you won't hurt my feelings ;~)

Surprise, Surprise - Dave takes another opportunity to plug his website and business....

tracey - you are right in how you are looking at the loan. Dave's examples are all tied to exactly the items you mention. Despite being for large amounts of money, mortgages are not particularly complicated. You need to know how much money you pay up front. You need to know how much you will pay per month. You need to know how long you will pay that for. And you need to know if any of those amounts are subject to change - eg a variable interest rate. That really is all there is. For a construction to permanent loan, you will also need to look at the details of that conversion and any requirements about how the money is dispersed.

Dave's concerns are not about comparing 1 loan to another. He knows darn well that these are black and white comparisons. The only question is which type of black and white loan fits best with your goals. For the type of loan you are looking for, you honestly aren't going to have all that many options. Since the credit crunch and housing slump, lenders are offering pretty plain vanilla terms and requirements for construction loans. New construction is inherently risky. Cost overruns and delays are the norm. Lenders just aren't willing to stick their necks out too far at this point, so you aren't going to have people offering you all sorts of exotic loans.

bill,
Your pretend-naivete is worse than laughable, its downright dangerous.

You sound like so many of the "trust me, this is simple" hucksters that got washed out back to the used-car lots when the industry squeezed out the slime.

Striking a contract to lay your hearth & home as collateral against your payment of several hundred thousands of dollars is in no way insignificant nor "black and white" despite how little you might understand about it. Small and critical financial variations can have HUGE effects in as little as just a few years, and significant term adjustments can make the difference in eliminating your loan liability in as much as 1/3 the time.

I can very clearly see why you only post anonymously. You could never pass a test of fiduciary care, and your advice is a hazard to folk's financial safety.

PRUDENT CAUTION TO ALL:
Never take anyone's advice who is unwilling to prove their credibility, their background, and that they know what they are talking about.

Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

So dave - please explain to all of us what critical terms of a loan are not disclosed on a hud statement and good faith estimate? Are you printing those out in blue ink instead of black on white, because that is the only way they change color? Loans don't have any mythical or mysterious items in them. It is federal law.

Can't we all just get along...

even if we do disagree

Hi cmarlin,
LOLgigglewheeze..... yeah, this gets kinda surreal after a while huh?

billl,
A HUD1 statement is simply a backward looking accounting document that details the settlement costs of a loan... much the same way a securities brokerage statement looks in arrears to tell you how your account was allocated, your fees, and how much you won or lost.

It tells you nothing about the relevance to the borrower's balance sheet, nor effectiveness of the structure and closing your eyes to the details is perilous (not might be, is.)

Good Faith Estimates are preliminary estimates of service fees... a GFE tells nothing of the financial structuring of the loan relevant to the rest of a household's balance sheet. Further a GFE isn't even reliable nor binding at any point in the process. Its a preliminary "guess" in good faith, thus the name.

I've already named just a *few* of the financial variables that can make a difference of tens (even hundreds) of thousands of dollars to principal in the post above to Tracey. What of those are you unable to understand?

Show me you grasp those basics, and we can proceed at the speed you can absorb.

Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Didn't mean to start a war :-)

Thanks for the replies, however spirited.

I truly am only interested in comparing my closing costs and my interest rate on a specific type of loan. We have excellent credit, more than enough income for the amount borrowed, we know we're not "stretching" in this purchase, and we are paying 35% down--so, I'm not worried about my balance sheet at least in regards to choosing a construction to 30-yr fixed mortgage.

Tracey

Tracey,
C2P is still a fairly rarified specialty in the current credit markets.

I'd still go back to my original advice;
For construction-to-perm (which is, in itself, a bit of a unique specialty,) I would suggest seeking references from your builder, and perhaps your local Master Builder's Association. They generally know who is trustworthy and strong in knowledge & experience.

Luck!
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Thanks Dave for all your past and future advice.
Having been on this board a number of years, I've never seen you try take advantage here for your personal gain. Keep up the good work!

Dave,
You are a Leverage Planner and a Mortgage Broker. At what point do you stop charging for finding a loan for a client, and start charging them for your financial planning advice? Or do you.

Hi ncreguy,

You are a Leverage Planner and a Mortgage Broker. At what point do you stop charging for finding a loan for a client, and start charging them for your financial planning advice? Or do you.

I am a licensed mortgage broker, a licensed insurance producer, a licensed personal counselor, and have my educational background in managerial finance. I use those licenses in my planning practice the same way other planners use their various licenses (ancillary examples are stock brokers, tax accountants, legal practitioners...)

Finding a loan is simple, its the capability of making sure the RIGHT loan is put in place and managed that is what requires more knowledge & tools.

My clients choose how they want to pay me;
A) Project fee, up front,
B) Project fee, financed
C) No fee (provider paid, in return for time commitment.)
D) Planning-only fee, up front

When our clients choose up-front fee options, our target is always that they recoup their fees in savings and safe growth within the 1st 12 months or less.

We focus on safe growth, safe equity, cost savings, and an acceleration of debt reduction (net worth appreciation.) Nothing we offer has any surprises, and our clients always keep control of their situation.

Hope that clarifies.
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Dave,
Thanks for the clarificatins.
All of the mortgage brokers tht I deal with here all seem to be transferring back to working directly for the lenders themselves, due to new regulations coming up. Word on the street is that brokers will no longer be a viable profession. I already am seeing comments in the MLS that some REO sellers will not accept pre qual letters from Brokers.

I've also been told by mortgage brokers their markets are drying up. Like it or not direct lending seems to be the future, or really already here for all practical purposes.
From a consumer perspective, it makes for more work when shopping.
Dave, I wonder how do you keep your markets, do mortgage and insurance companies require high volume to keep a market? Seems that splitting lines dilute each market.
How do you produce enough insurance to keep your market? Is your license in L&H?

Hi NCREGuy,

All of the mortgage brokers tht I deal with here all seem to be transferring back to working directly for the lenders themselves, due to new regulations coming up.

With ALL due respect to so many brokers in my industry (which frankly, is really very little respect,) the *majority* 'grew up' in a business model of hustling & bootlegging their revenues... that is, trying to hide them so they could grab business from consumers who truly believed a "no points" loan meant nobody was making any money from them.

They deserve to wither & fall away (both the hustglers & the consumers that fed them.) I have nothing but contempt for the hustlers, and I avoid such consumers who refuse to wake up to reality.

The new regulations are DESIGNED to creat a "full disclosure" environment (which is what I've always chosen, so no shift for me.) This scares the bejezuss out of the bootlegger hustlers, as they can't imagine how they'll ever compete on quality of service (which frankly, they probably never could... because they only knew how to bottom-fish the least sophisticated consumers in the first place. They hustled "rate & fee" ignoring the longterm elephant-in-the-room financial effects of selection & structuring... and they can't fathom looking anyone in the eye and showing that person how they actually earn a fee.)

Word on the street is that brokers will no longer be a viable profession.

The demand and position in the markets of client-oriented Non-Captive Independent Producers will never go away... but it may change names, regulatory environments and structures. The wholesaler/financial-providers will always provide a demand for these independent producers, as they generate ongoing business with much less overhead and risk exposure than W2 employees. The general public (especially those with more financial savvy) will always prefer indepedent professionals that they can trust to hold their own interests as priority over "the company."

The people wailing (and/or celebrating) about the death of "mortgage brokers" are referring to the old-world revenue bootleg hustlers.

================================

Hi cmarlin,

Like it or not direct lending seems to be the future, or really already here for all practical purposes.
From a consumer perspective, it makes for more work when shopping.

The bigger problem, in my opinion (as stated above,) is the conflict of interest a consumer faces when dealing with captive loan officers. You can get no unbiased financial treatment, and the bank/lender has no incentive to encourage their capitive producers to give advice contrary to 'the company's' best ineterests (even though that may be very contrary to the consumer's interests.)

That's fine for people who are unaware (or in denial) of the differences in structuring... its close to criminal for those who lose money or are put at greater risk because of it, in my opinion.

This "market gap" will not go unfilled.

Dave, I wonder how do you keep your markets, do mortgage and insurance companies require high volume to keep a market? Seems that splitting lines dilute each market.

Not sure what you are referring to as "market." Some wholesale lenders adopt volume minimums, sometimes... same for insurance carriers... but most understand that deal-flow is variable (even for the top independent producers) because lenders & carriers regularly change their offering terms (making them more or less relatively competitive,) and regional markets fluctuate as well. Overall, they want incoming business more than they want to try to streamline the variability of production.

How do you produce enough insurance to keep your market? Is your license in L&H?

My business primarily comes from referrals from my existing book of clients, and I also regularly do public seminars. My insurance licensing is as an independent L&H Producer/Broker.

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Leverage Planner

Tracey B,
I would look for an "upfront mortgage broker". Do a google search, lots of info. I know very little about mortgages, but I came across this "upfront mortgage broker" concept (because I am looking to refinance), and I think it makes a lot of sense. Good luck.