I should add that the drawing illustrates the current layout (not exactly to scale) and we will be redoing everything so now is the time to make changes. : )

If the range needs to be on the wall, the only place it can go is where the fridge is, so where would we put the fridge?

As another option, instead of your husband's suggestion of putting it where the wall oven is shown, you could move the sink down to below the next window, closer to the peninsula, and put the dishwasher either in the peninsula or in the island. That way you have room for both the range (or cooktop) and fridge on that same wall. Also, if you put it where the wall oven is currently shown, you totally have room for another wall oven--put it on the sink wall, perhaps at the other end (have a floor-to-ceiling cabinet, or floor-to-however-tall-your-uppers-are one, on the end and put the wall oven in there). Also, if you don't mind having an oven at the same height a range oven is, you could always put it in the island.

Personally I would put in a range (rather than a cooktop) and a single wall oven elsewhere. That's probably your most space-efficient and inexpensive way of getting two ovens and a 36" cooktop.

But these are simple solutions, playing with your current layout. If I understand correctly and your kitchen is basically 19 feet long by 12 feet wide, you might want to play with the layout more. That might involve moving the exterior door and/or one or both windows. But first, tell us what you don't like about it and what you want to be able to do (including how many people are in it at any one time, and what they're doing).

As long as person at sink is back to back with range/stovetop you've got guaranteed collisions. To get more help in the kitchen you need another sink and there need to be two triangles anchored at the range and at the refrig with a sink on the outside.

I'd start the conversation by rotating island 45 degrees and think about options after that--you need plunk space directly opposite entry door or alongside it for groceries etc. Put range on peninsula and second sink on island? Reverse direction of door so that traffic is not routed toward kitchen?

ignore what I said about the door--I didn't remember it correctly. It opens away from kitchen already.

How wide is the DR doorway?

Is it 96" b/w the wall on the right and the windows?

Are the windows 9'6" wide? Can they be changed and/or moved?

What is the distance b/w the windows on the left and the windows on the right?

Is it 22'8" from the left edge of the peninsula to the the right wall?

Right wall...what is the distance b/w the top wall and the first window? To the door? To the second window? To the DR doorway?

How far off the floor are the windows on the top wall? The windows on the right wall?

What is the length of the wall segment below the peninsula?

What is the distance b/w the pantry door and the end of the wall on the right side? The left side? How wide is the pantry door?

Where is the pantry itself (walls)? What is the size of the pantry?

An oven isn't that shallow (3"??). So, is it recessed into the pantry? How deep is the recess?

Is the FR on the same level as the kitchen?

Do you need counter seating?

How do you feel about 2 islands, each a separate Prep Zone? Or, one the Cleanup Zone, the other a Prep Zone with a Prep Zone on the perimeter wall as well?

Will your new refrigerator be a built-in or a counter-depth model? 36" wide?

Do you have a second refrigerator elsewhere?

• "...plan on moving the dishwasher to the right of the sink because I seem to be inept at loading from my left..."

Where is your dish storage? Could your "ineptness" really be due to the location of your dish storage in relation to your DW? Putting the DW on the right in this particular case would put the DW in the middle of the Prep Zone and b/w the range and sink...generally not recommended.

Here are 3 similar ideas (1 square = 6"x6"):

..

..

Wow, Beuhl, those are some really nice plans. : ) Meggswife, we are only a family of 8 (soon to be nine. . .), so I can understand the desire to make a kitchen that works for a lot of people at the same time, for all those meals in a week.

Of the three plans Beuhl made, I like Layout #2 the best.

I'd hesitate to put the DW directly across from the fridge as in Layouts 1 and 3. We usually have folks cleaning up and putting food away in the fridge at the same time someone is loading the DW, so that would cause collisions.

I also like the DW in #2 being in the middle of everything so that it can, in theory, be easily filled as you go, no matter where someone is working in the kitchen.

As far as prep sink location in the island by the door goes, I think I'd swap the order of things. So, left to right it would be sink, trash, 36" base. This way, there is Florantha's "plunk space" on the island as you come in the door. Another potential plunk spot is under the window below the door. This looks like a good spot for a bench or shallow table/cupboard.

Do you need a 2nd fridge? How about a 2nd DW? Are all of your dishes stored in the kitchen, or maybe in a hutch in the DR?

How about moving the door down and making another wall of windows. Groceries can come straight in and be set on island ready to go into pantry or frig.

Can you make do with no uppers? I think it would look awesome!

I like a single island better because otherwise traffic may be flowing all over the place and everyone would be dancing out of each other's way. This way, you know where people may be coming from, you only pay for fabrication of one island/countertop, you would not need the space used for the aisle between the islands, and if you put a prep sink in the island, you would still have a lot of work space there.
I'd also vote for 2 dws rather than multiple drawers. I think keeping track of what is clean and what is dirty would be a pain with so many different places to wash dishes.
My biggest suggestion is to get a 30" separate fridge and freezer set, at full depth. With a large family, you do not want to limit your refrigeration needs. We got the Whirpool Sidekicks 4 years ago and love them. The freezer has an icemaker option and we did a filtered water setup at the sink.
I'd also suggest one trash pullout and one freestanding can that can move with the main cook.
I'd vote to do similar to houseful's plan, but with a stove and wall oven rather than a cooktop.

Thank you so much for all your help so far!

I need to get the children started on their schoolwork, so this will be brief, but I wanted to get the measurements to you.

The kitchen is 22' 8" long x 13' 6" wide

Looking at the sink wall:

96 3/4" from right corner to first window
There are three windows 35" x 50 1/2" with a 4 1/4" space between each - overall span of all three windows is 9' 6 1/4" (they are 44 1/4" off the ground)

On the left side, from the first family room window to the first kitchen window 72"

On the right (the door wall):
33 1/2" from corner to first window (left of door when facing it)
Window is 23" x 78 3/4"
18 1/2" to door (which is 32" wide - actual door)
16 3/4" to next window (which is also 23" x 78 3/4")

The opening to the dining room is large, but there is a built-in hutch (glass on both sides) in the middle leaving a 41" walkway on either side. The hutch begins 9" into the dining room (from the right edge of the right window)

The ceilings are 8' 6"

The low counter/peninsula is 102" off the wall and leaves a 51" walkway to the opposite (pantry) wall.

The wall oven is inset into the pantry wall. The wall they share is 106" wide. The pantry is 89" deep and 92" wide overall, but it loses some space that the wall oven takes up (24" deep and 35" wide). The pantry door frame abuts the wood trim/frame around the wall oven. The pantry counters are on three sides (horseshoe shape).

Our main fridge is 36" wide and 35" deep including the handles. We won't be replacing it as it is only 1 1/2 old. We have a second full size fridge in the laundry room for overflow and a full size freezer in the garage.

We are fine with one "electric" dishwasher since I have a whole bunch on "manual" dishwashers. ; ) We only put dishes, flatware, and glasses in the dw, (which is run 1x daily). All cooking dishes are washed by hand.

The current dish storage is in a upper cabinet to the right of the sink, next to the fridge. The glasses are stored in the upper cabinet to the left of the sink.

We tend to "plop" things onto the low counter, not the island, unless they are groceries that are being put away. Our current island is only 6' long with a 30" cooktop in the middle.

The house is all one level.

We don't need counter seating in the kitchen. The peninsula is in the family room on the one side and that is where everyone generally hangs out - not in the kitchen itself unless they're doing something.

We homeschool, so we are all here during the day with the exception of my husband and our oldest son (20) who both work all day M-F. The other children are: 18, 15, 13, 11, 9, 8, 3, 4 months. The 18 yo is graduating next month and then he'll be gone working during the day as well.

Typically there are no more than 3 of us working (cooking/preparing/washing) in the kitchen at the same time.

One reason the kitchen isn't working well is that everything is...

One reason the kitchen isn't working well is that everything is such a reach. The fridge is "down there" the glasses are "way over there"

That's because you've basically got a 22-foot-long galley kitchen. That's too long for a galley kitchen. With a kitchen that big you need an L or a U-shaped layout, or some slight variation on those, with prep/some storage/cooking on one leg (or one corner if it's a U shape) and sink/DW/dish storage on the other leg (or corner).

What most people would do with a kitchen this size is turn it into about 2/3 kitchen and 1/3 something else (breakfast area, or "command central" desk/computer/bulletin board, etc.).

What's stopping you from doing that? Given the location of your pantry and wall oven, the best solution might be to turn that left-hand peninsula into workspace (it doesn't need to be open to the family room all the way across--you could even put the fridge here) and turn the area over by the exterior door into a breakfast area, or command central, or whatever suits your lifestyle (study space for the kids?). So in effect, you would be bunching your kitchen into the left two-thirds or three-quarters of your kitchen and turning the right 1/3 or 1/4 into something else.

ideagirl, you asked what is stopping me? An unprecedented lack of creativity. It's an excellent idea, I just can't seem to get a layout to work. I'll try playing around with my pencil a bit more, : )

The dish drawers are not dishwasher drawers, they're drawers to store dishes, etc.

Remember, when making a kitchen work for multiple cooks/workers, you cannot have a compact, small space, you need room for those people to work and move around.

The real issue here is the large window in the middle of the wall...it pretty much forces the "tall" items to the ends, putting them far from each other. If the windows were split up, you might get a better layout... Another issue is the location of the windows & door on the right wall...again, limiting what can go there. Lots of windows are great, but they can severely limit your options when they take up the majority of wall space. (Most kitchens have the wall opposite the windows for tall items, but you don't have enough wall space there plus your kitchen is too wide for easy access b/w the two sides. When you put in an island, you then have to worry about creating a "barrier island".)

As to the range/cooktop in the peninsula...you will really need to put in an overhead vent. I know, some people here say you don't need to vent or that a downdraft works great...in my experience, both statements are just not true. Downdrafts only work (marginally) if they're telescoping and only for items both right up against them and several inches shorter than the top of the fan part. Additionally, they have to be pretty powerful (and usually loud) b/c they're working against "nature"...steam/smoke/etc. rise and trying to pull them all down instead, takes power. As to no venting, you just have to walk into my parents' kitchen to see how bad it is to be without proper venting (grease settles on the cabinets, walls, and ceiling. Then dust settles on the grease and a thick, difficult to remove layer of "gunk" develops.)

If you do decide to go with a range/cooktop in the peninsula, be sure you have at least 24" b/w the back of the range/cooktop and the edge of the seating overhang for safety...both from grease splatters/steam scalding/smoke and from accidentally pushing papers onto the surface (both are issues regardless of seating height behind the cooking surface, btw.)

You say you have a maximum of 3 people working in the kitchen at a time...is that b/c 3 or 4 of your children are too young to help or b/c they take turns?

Regardless, with three people, you need space for 3 people. You might be able to eliminate one of the prep sinks...

As to one, big island, I think that's a mistake b/c then you have to run around it. With two islands, there's a walkway b/w that allows you to move around the kitchen better. It doesn't cause more traffic headaches, it actually solves some...not only making it easier to move around, but also to limit the traffic b/w an island & the wall run at any time b/c it's easy to get to the other side/island via the back of the islands and then the middle walkway.

I was going over everyone's suggestions with my husband and he thought the dual island idea was cool. : )

We were discussing what ideagirl mentioned - making the kitchen smaller - and he suggested building a wall and making a mudroom entry. Would it seem odd to walk into a mudroom? What size would it need to be in order to not feel like you were walking into a wall? Does anyone have any pictures of mudroom entries? If we did that, we'd have more freedom with regards to stove and fridge placement which are our biggest headaches at the moment, but I don't want to make a mistake.

One thing I was unsure of with Beuhl's plans was the fridge placement. If I had it at that end, it would be right at the family room threshold which seems a bit odd. (I sure appreciate your drawings Beuhl. They really helped us visualize things.)

The refrigerator location actually makes it easier for someone from the FR to raid the refrigerator without getting underfoot of those working in the kitchen.

I think a Mudroom would be nice! I wish we had room for one! I think I would make it at least 5' deep...room for 24" deep cubbies along the interior wall and 3' of aisle space b/w the cubbies and exterior wall. You could put a bench under the bottom window and a closet at the top wall. If you put the door from the Mudroom into the kitchen at the bottom of the new wall, it would give you more wall space and more options.

The cubbies could have hooks for backpacks, jackets, etc. and drawers underneath for boots, gloves, scarves, sneakers, cleats, etc.

Just make sure either the front or back door is big enough to get appliances & furniture through!

Here is a mock up with a mudroom. (The middle "window" in the mudroom is our door - it's all glass.) (The odd cabinet arrangement on the family room side is our way to accommodate a computer desk on the family room side - space for legs under the counter.) Thoughts on the design? What can I do to make it better?

(The mudroom in the picture is 6' 4" wide. Also, I didn't picture the pantry or wall oven because they would be level with the edge of my drawing, (inset into the wall). On the left side of the kitchen there is no wall - it's open to the family room.)

I just love the exchange of ideas on this forum. : )

Where do you store all of the outdoor gear now? A mudroom could be a great idea. . . would the cubbies have doors? (I'm thinking you wouldn't want to see the mess of it from the kitchen or dining room.) If you Google "mudroom locker pictures" or "mudroom cubbies" you'll find lots of ideas.

A few concerns jump out at me when I look at your 3D renditions. Usually the work flow goes fridge-sink-stove, so you've got some crossover there. The most useful counter is clear across the room from the fridge and stove. It seems like that's going to make for extra traipsing and traffic, or squeezing yourself into a tighter workspot because the location is more convenient.

Also, I'd recommend that you have an extra sink for prep. We currently have 2 sinks now (eventually we'll have 3-yikes!) and it is wonderful both for prepping, and for dividing up chores. One group uses the one sink area for loading the DW, another person washes pots and pans at the other sink.

How about this: Could the fridge go next to the pantry where it looks like the wall oven is located, maybe build it in flush like the oven currently is. Put in a range where you have it drawn with oven(s) underneath the countertop. This would give you a good landing zone on either side of the range top. Then, you could put a prep sink in the island. The sink in the island could be shared- at the island itself, by the person using the range, and a third at the peninsula toward the family room, and none of them would cross over tasks with a fourth person working at the sink on the perimeter.

Here is a link that might be useful: Restyled home mudroom ideas-see other links at the bottom of this page, too

Similar to laughable's suggestion, perhaps you could:

- Move the fridge to the oven wall
- Scootch the range away from the corner a bit to give yourself more prep room
- Put an island hood over the range, so now you can have an open view out the back. Use the back of the range counter for a mudroom bench or storage
- Definitely, whatever you do, get the DW out from between range and sink
- Add a prep sink to the island or move cleanup to the peninsula with an additional sink (using the sink under the window for prep)

I've inset the fridge into the pantry wall where the current wall oven is. I have surrounding red cabinetry to form the wall - there wouldn't actually be cabinets there. I moved the dw to the left of the sink. The large "windows" are just to show that the kitchen is open to the other rooms. What do you think?

I really would like to have a second oven, but I don't know about placement... Also, there will be a wall behind the range, it will not be open to the mudroom. We would put cabinets, a bench, hooks, etc in the MR. (We have plenty of mud in the country, so a MR is a bonus.) I'm really liking this idea, but I am still wide open to plan changes.

Here is the second oven next to the range:

Second oven in the peninsula:

No second oven:

I just talked with my husband and he'd really rather not put the fridge where the wall oven is located. One of the walls in the pantry is load bearing. Plus, the wall oven opening isn't large enough for the fridge as it is, so he'd need to re-engineer the opening and possibly move the pantry door a couple of inches.

I'm a bit bummed because it would be much nicer. He said he would do it if I really wanted him to, but I don't want to make him if it won't make that large of a difference.

Any thoughts?

Anyone?

Oh dear, where is everyone? Maybe the springy weather led folks outside.

Well, you could discuss adding on to the house to build a mudroom, then maybe changing 1 little loadbearing wall wouldn't seem quite so bad, LOL.

Or, how about this: The doorway to the DR looks quite wide. So, if you put the fridge next to your existing oven stack and made a smaller archway into your dining room, would that work ? I'm not sure how this works with the dimensions and the lay of the land in the DR, but it's a shot.

Hopefully the gurus will be back soon. : )

Here is a link that might be useful: [Oodles of mudroom ideas on Houzz.com[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/mudroom-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_741~a_13-415)

The lovely weather does have a way of enticing us, doesn't it? ; )

I love the idea of suggesting an addition, he'd probably faint. When we moved into this house, one of the selling points was that there would be no ned to remodel. Ha ha! : ) He should know me better after 20+ years.

I'm not sure about putting the fridge next to the wall oven... I'll try that out.

Thank you for the mudroom links! I'm getting lots of good ideas.

He said he would do it if I really wanted him to, but I don't want to make him if it won't make that large of a difference.

This is a pretty big deal in the scheme of things. A convenient fridge location is key...And this is for a LONG time, right?

I, too, couldn't deal with the fridge location in Buehl's plans, as there is too much zone crossing, and in a household like yours, lots of traffic problems. The pantry wall location has lots of pluses:
Easy access from cooking area, and from family room.
Pantry and fridge together mean food storage/retrieval in one spot.
Leaves more work room around your range, which is important.

BUT, I just noticed Laughable's point about the dining room doorway and the fridge. It appears that her idea would line up the fridge with the aisle in front of the range, which would be GREAT...and it avoids the problems your DH had with your idea, plus gives you space for the 2nd oven.

Now that we have one, I can't imagine life in our house without a prep sink, especially if you're having only 1 dishwasher, which means more dish collection in the main sink... So I hope you're seriously considering a 2nd sink. ("Manual" dishwashers use much more water and energy than the electric kind...)

The layouts I drew up were based on not changing the windows and exterior doors. If they can be changed, many more options open up.

One thing, I would not want the refrigerator on the "bottom" wall, especially if there's an island...it's much too far away from the "action" and just about any island would be a barrier.

On the far right wall, the refrigerator will draw people from the FR through the heart of the kitchen to get to the refrigerator. The peninsula idea will direct traffic to the outside...a good thing! However, without a prep sink in that island, the refrigerator is still too far away from the sink...close to 11' and across the main/busiest path through the kitchen. It's difficult to tell for certain without a flat/2-D view, but the island may still be a barrier b/w the sink and range. Again, a prep sink would take care of that for the most part.

Keep in mind that mounting a wall oven under the counter will give you an oven that's even closer to the floor than the oven in a range. We looked into this early on and went somewhere to see an oven undermounted. The door handle was a mere inch or so off the floor when the oven was opened and both my DH & I knew instantly it was far too low for us.