I do see some hassle, but not necessarily lost function by opening the rooms. I know you were hoping for an island, but I just don't think those options leave you enough workspace where you need it. This narrows me to 2 and 2B. I would much prefer 2 because it give you a major advantage that 2B doesn't: A nice big open work area accessible from 2 sides (similar to having a work island) where you can also easily see into the family room. Plus, you still have that counter on the top wall to use. In 2B, that top wall counter is the longest stretch of workspace, it's facing the wall, and it's only accessible from the one side.

Yeah, I'm between 2 and 2b. I kind of liked the openness of 2b, but rhome convinced me that 2 is better. :-)

Another vote for 2a. I think rhome's synopsis pretty much nails it.

Another vote for 2a. This assumes you are keeping the sxs fridge so opening it doesn't totally block off the kitchen. I'm sorry the island isn't a better option since I know you wanted one (I know the feeling).
That counter space with excess from two sides is so useful with kids. Make it a great surface for rolling dough.

rhome- just to clarify- when you mention hassle do you mean what it would take to open it up- busting up the wall/ceiling, moving water- or any hassle in how the new space would work?

Hi Spincrazy25,

I prefer 2a.
You will love being able to look into the
family room to interact with life. It will
be an amazing transformation.

Good luck and enjoy the process
~boxerpups

I just meant it'll be some work to get it done...Not a hassle at all functionally, that I can see. You can be sure I'd tell you if I see a downside to ripping down walls, because usually you lose a lot, but I don't see it here. I know you want it open and I think that 2a accomplishes that and makes a nice, workable kitchen. I see definite advantages over what you have now, and even some over option 1. The only disadvantage I see compared to option 1 is dish storage. But from what you've said, it's a compromise you can probably make work.

You all are so great. How could I ever get through this without everyone's words of wisdom?! I haven't jumped on the dish drawer bandwagon, so I feel ok with the base storage in 2A. I was even thinking of using some glass fronts to show of my dishes (and break up the see of wood).

On that peninsula would you make it 30 deep?

30 or 36"...Whichever works with the measurements of your kitchen and makes that run even with the side of the fridge.

Iz a 2b person, but 2a would be my second choice.

I prefer 2a for all the reasons RHome410 said...

Ditto on the depth of the peninsula...36" if you have the space for it (remember, you need room for the table & chairs), 30" if not. I would definitely go w/at least 30" (plus the 1-1/2" counter overhang front & back).

If you can do 36", you could than put in 12" deep cabinets or shelves facing the breakfast nook.

I'm a 2a-er. I like the way the range is centered between the ref and pantry, and I like the way the pennisula bridges the gap between the ref and sink, and the way the counters wrap around both sides of the sink. It looks very functional to me. I'd go for as much depth on the pennisula as your space can manage.Taking down the wall will make the entire space more family functional and welcoming. Good luck with your decision~Jeannie

Wow- all but one 2a. I like how you all point out what you like. Anyone want to point out what you don't like? Ok I know about the unprotected cook area, but we have that now, and it's never been a problem.

BTW Buehl- you must be reading my mind. I really want to put bookshelves facing the breakfast nook.

I would be interested in your old stove if it is still in good working condition.

Only downside I see to 2a...Dish area at opposite end of the kitchen from the eating area. You could think about putting the dw on the other side of the sink, so it's closer to the dish storage (which I'd much prefer) and so the sink has a better view of the family room...and is also pretty much centered behind the bar area.

Haven't you read this forum enough to know that if there was something we really didn't like about the plan, we'd say so? ;-D

Too many corner cabs.

I don't like being trapped in a "U".

I would like it a little better if the pantry flopped with the 24" cab near the door on the perpendicular wall but just evaporated into a 30" cab on one side of the range and a 36" cab on the other.

My vote is 2b. What are the measurements on 2 between the refrigerator and counter coming towards it? We have a U shape kitchen and I really like having a 6'+ opening at the end of the U for ease of movement and opening the refrigerator door.

I like 3a or 3b.

What would the dimension of the island be? I think mine is about that size (60 x 86) and we work on 3 sides of ours when we have a lot going on. There is lots of space. I would make the island as wide as you can.

I would make the cabinet at the top a reach in pantry for food, dishes, etc and not put a pantry on the left wall.

The left wall I would arrange the appliances to have the most unbroken counterspace. Will the refrigerator door open if you place it where the pantry is? I would try to put it in that corner because you won't see it from the LR and if you place it at the other end it kind of "stops" the kitchen.

my first vote is 3A - we ripped out our wall in our old house and we got so many WOWS when people walked in. It's makes a small space HUGE and you will really love it. BUT if money/time/energy is an issue I vote with the rest 2B. Love the ref in the new spot, especially if you make it built in looking with the wood panels on each side.

I like the openness of 3a or 3b. I agree with sundownr's suggestion to have the longest span of counter space on the left wall. Put the refrigerator facing the island with counter on the right side for MW and/or coffee bar that is easily accessible from the family room without getting the cooks way. If there is enough aisle space have 2' on each side of the sink.

Be careful what you ask for! Wow- lots of people on right now! Let me see if I can address everyone.....

Debs3...Seriously? It works ok, but one of the big burners only cooks on high and I find the oven cooks a little hot.

rhome- I see what you mean about dish storage, but on the other hand, the formal dining room is just through that pocket door. Of course we only eat there 3 times a year.
I considered putting the DW on the left for the reasons you mentioned, but I am right-handed and thought it would be awkward. Anyone out have a DW on the opposite hand?

bmorepanic- I'm right there with you on those corners. My #1 concern. My existing is only an L, but I don't feel trapped. Might make a difference with the flip. I am a little confused about the rest....
P.S. I am a big fan of you kitchen.

lkremodel- not sure about which dimesion you asked about. In 2a, the distance between the ref and the peninsulawould be about 45 in. In 2b, the opening is about 6-1/2.

sundownr (any relation to the group Sundowners?)- Oh I love my island idea, but it's not looking too good. That island is looking too small to house a sink. I made it as wide as I could to allow clearance- 78"x however deep I want.
Do you think the workspace is kind of spotty?
The ref can't go in the top left. It's too deep unless I can really recess it into the wall, but more importantly, It doesn't open well against the wall. Hence the move in the first place.

Keep 'em coming!

2a - I like the wall and we opted to leave walls as its nice when the kitchen is messy to have it closed off, put the money/structural issues. 2a, gives you more space and cabinets if you lose the pantry, gives you a nice balance and nice prep areas. I'd also get a counter-dept fridge - I found one at Sears Outlet online for $1000 panel ready/delivered but it was pure luck a few years ago (didn't realize what I was ordering as we needed on in a hurry and it looked cool).

When it's brought up on the forum, I think there's usually a pretty big consensus that the dishwasher should be where it functions best, usually nearest the dishes, no matter which hand you use most. We have dishwashers on either side of the sink. Neither is hard to load. The only difference I notice between the 2 is that the unloading of the one next to the dishes is faster and more efficient. Lots of walking around for the other.

I've had DWs on both sides of the sink (currently opening into my legs) and it's just a matter of getting used to it. I'm right handed and like it on the left. Rinse right, hold left, into the DW it goes. Just get a single bowl sink or a 70/30 with big bowl on the side of the DW.

That said, keeping the DW where you have it in 2a gives you the best counter space. Your kitchen is compact enough and well designed so that the dishes still aren't far away.

When it comes time to replace the fridge you can get a counter depth. No need to do that now unless you were planning to, which I don't recall.

keeping the DW where you have it in 2a gives you the best counter space.

It depends...If you want one giant workspace, you have it the way it is. If, however, you could benefit from 2 good, separated workspaces, swapping the dw and sink will give you that. Maybe could allow you to do things like baking on one side and salad prep on the other...if you have multiple cooks doing different projects.

I prefer the 3s best. I like the tighter work aisle, especially since you have no prep sink. I wouldn't like to hike 6.5 feet with a big pot of pasta to drain boiling water, for example. In fact, I'd make the aisle a tad tighter and make the island a tad wider to give sitters more distance from the sink. I agree with those who suggest moving the fridge and/or pantry to the top wall in the 3 setup, leaving lots of counter on either side of the stove. This would also mean you could use the uppers and base cabs to the left of the stove for dishes, allowing you to leave the DW on your right.

The 2s would also be a big improvement, but I don't like how the bar encroaches so far into the family room. If you feel like you have plenty of extra space in there, it would be fine, but it doesn't look that big on the plan. I also prefer more freedom of movement, and the 2s limit access a bit more. The 3 setup allows more ways in and out of the kitchen, making protecting your work space less of an issue, since most people will pick an alternative to crowding when it's available.

Just took one of them and moved the pantry and the range. And look, a little kitchen action figure standing at the island.

What's wrong with this one? The island counters aren't big enough to comfortably prep or mix - so I think you'll be turned away from the family room and dining area often. Really, none of the counters are big enough - improved a bit by relocating the pantry. The stick figure occupies the best little part of counter.

{{gwi:1793819}}

I agree about the narrower aisle being nicer, but I'd really worry about the fact that she would have no counter wider than 24" except that tucked over under the dish storage, so not in the main work area and facing the wall. Place a toaster, a coffee maker, a mixer, and other such items in appropriate areas throughout the room, and there's not much counter left. I've read about people here who remodeled their kitchens to solve the 'no more than 2 ft of counter space' problem.

If both the pantry and fridge were moved to the top wall, there would be a long expanse of counter on both sides of the stove.

I'd love to see the stove and clean-up sink both on the left wall, the fridge on the top wall, and a prep sink on the bottom end of the island, leaving a large expanse of workspace on the island. (Of course, this makes it remarkably like my own layout that I love so much :) !)

We had a set-up very similar to 2a in our last house and I hated it - there just wasn't a large enough work area anywhere. Plus, the raised bar wasn't useful for anything but collecting clutter.

I was always wanting to bring the bar down to the same level as the rest of the counter. It also seemed to me as if placing the sink in that corner would have made more sense - nice, long continuous run of counter to the left, plus a sink that was accessible from two sides.

Hi Spincrazy, yes I am serious, but the big burner is a problem. My Mom has the same stove in harvest gold. The clock/timer does not work for the self-cleaning function and one of the wires near the large burner gave me a bit of a shock while cleaning the stove. It has been a great stove, but it is tired, I was hoping yours wasn't. Are you in California? Thank you.

Hi Debs- I'm about as far as you can get from CA- Florida! I've never used that little clock/timer and I don't even know if it works. Can't believe you got shocked.

Everyone- I love the idea of the fridge on the top wall, but the thing is huge, and would stick out too far. I think the pocket door would prevent me from recessing it in the wall a little. My fridge is only 2 years old, so it wasn't in the budget to get a new counter-depth.

Darn- we were on a roll with the 2As but now all these 3s are popping up. It's like the little devil in my ear trying to get my island but I'm concerned with all the tiny patches of workspace.

Love the action figure bmorepanic!

You're right to be concerned about the "tiny patches of workspace". Our old kitchen had those "tiny patches" and it didn't work out at all...I hated working in it b/c there was not enough room in one place to work & have tools or ingredients out at the same time. I was constantly shuffling things around to find room to work. Additionally, my DH and I competed for the workspace around the sink...I needed it for prepping & cooking, he needed it for dirty dishes & cleaning up.

With our new kitchen, we have a very similar layout to 2a and we absolutely love it! In our case, we have 2 stools on the peninsula since we have a wall where 2a has stools in your layout. B/c of the wall, we were able to put our cooktop in the protected "U" area & the sink on the straight run. [The interior wall location of the cooktop did, however, offer several challenges to venting externally for us (shower drain in the way, shallow walls, & shallow ceiling well)...but we eventually worked them out.]

We also have approx 6.5' b/w the two runs of cabinets and it's only 1-1/2 steps from one side to the other...which also leaves plenty of room for through-traffic (the kitchen is b/w the FR & DR & Den).

The pro of this (and my layout) is that the legs of the "U" are long enough to protect the cooking area while also offering a nice expanse of workspace but not so long as to be a big impediment to accessing the kitchen. We did end up putting a prep sink in the peninsula corner so that did detract from some of the counterspace there, but not much.

We each have our "own" side of the kitchen now. I do think, though, that part of what makes it work so perfectly is the addition of the prep sink.

To address the crossing the aisle w/pot of boiling water issue, you could do something like this...

If you decide to leave all or most of the wall up b/w the Kitchen & FR, then I suggest you switch the range & sink/DW. This would protect the cooking zone.

This would open it up a little b/w the FR & Kitchen, allow 2 seats, and allow working from all sides of the peninsula.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here's what our layout looks like:

Note: Our kitchen is 6" narrower (b/w sink & cooktop runs) than this design shows AND there are only approx 32" b/w the counter-depth refrigerator handles & the end of the peninsula (not something I recommend unless it's temporary...it should be at least 36").

[In our layout, if you eliminate the double ovens and replace the "mini-peninsula" w/a pantry, you'll see what I mean about our layout being very similar...]

Wow Buehl! Thanks for all the thought you put into this! You aren't kidding..the two are very similar. But of course there is a reason for that as your kitchen is saved in my "idea" folder! There's so many options leaving that darn wall up (sigh).

Happy Easter everyone! Ham and family and easter eggs don't get in the way of the TKO! Thought I would play with something holligator mentioned...sort of. One teensy problem....I'd need a counter depth fridge! How do you like this?

I like it cuz it seems a little familiar ;-)...But I was trying to use your current fridge in your last thread:

Another suggestion for my version (frig either way...counter depth is better to have the pantry as one unit) would be to have the dish hutch at the other end by the dining room (also switching the dw to that end) so that the stove is more centered in the view from the family room...But the attractive dish hutch loses its appearance value shoved over in the corner, I guess.

OR...Put pantry where I have dish hutch in the last one, and narrower than the dish hutch, so you have more counter...Then create some cool dish storage in the tall cab(s) next to the fridge.

Sorry if this is too long and rambly...A long day and the ideas seem to be occurring in a rambly way. ;-)

I like long and rambly. My long day included plumbing stoppage and malfunctioning AC (in Florida!), and yet I'm still here and still stressed. Supposed to meet with cabinet guy tomorrow and don't know what I am doing.

I think if I use my existing REF it would be too tight between it and the edge of the island. Should be no less than 36", right?

What is this dish hutch you mention? A freestanding piece?

bump

The dish hutch could be freestanding or created out of your cabinetry and connected. Just something that's a little pretty and special...Often with glass doors in part of it and often with the upper section coming down to the counter for full-height storage. For mine, the lowers just extend across with banks of drawers (same depth as the rest and with the counter continuing across), then I will have an upper section that sits on the counter with drawers across the bottom and glass doors on the remaining. That part will be about 16" deep.

Some do dish hutches with a change in countertop and with the uppers raised so that the counter is still useful and they add details like corbels and maybe a unifying backsplash to make it look like one unit.

Here are a couple of previous discussions with photos of dish hutches:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg020948126344.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0211182827584.html

Yes I def want to do some glass fronts. In option 2a/2b I was planning to do that on the wall with the pocket door. Several options with 3d like you showed.

Hey all- I'm still trying to work out some kinks with 2a/2b because something just isn't sitting right with me. I decided to try out Holligator's suggestion after seeing her kitchen and jbrodie's recently. So inspiring! I don't know if it works since my space is definitely smaller (and yet I made the island HUGE), but thought I would post it for thoughts anyway. Is it weird having the sink and range on the same wall? THANKS!

Well, I certainly love the latest layout--it feels so...familiar. :)

I love having my sink and stove on the same wall. I do have a prep sink in the island, though. Not sure if that's something you want to do, but I find it quite useful and it still leaves loads of counter space on the island. The drawback is that it leaves you less storage space in the island.

If you do decide to add a prep sink, consider moving the trash to the island, as well. Since we do almost all our prep work there, it comes in very handy, but it's still close enough to the sink and DW for scraping dirty dishes. That would leave you room for some wide drawers next to the stove for your pots, pans, and utensils.

That's a good idea holligator. BTW- How far is your fridge from the edge of the island?

The dw location worries me, and I don't like how close the main sink and stove are; they are sharing valuable counter space. The stove doesn't really have much space on either side. I had a kitchen with sink and stove on the same side and it was fine, but it had more counter between the two and a good area of counter on the far side of the stove, as well.

Sorry I was on much yesterday and missed your question. You know, I went and measured since I was curious about the distance from the handles to the island. All this time, I thought I had 45" between the fridge and the island, but really, I only have slightly more than 42" (less than 40" from the handles). I think the 45" must be from the counter next to the fridge to the island--unless I just made up that number in my head.

We have 18" of counter to the left of the stove, which is just enough room for the coffee maker and an occasional landing space for cooking. The space between the stove and sink is what I use most for staging and landing. That stretch of counter is 32", which seems plenty roomy. Other than drying pots and pans on my runnels immediately to the right of the sink, I don't use the stretch between the sink and the wall. I do have my toaster on the adjacent counter, so that counter space does get used.

I agree with rhome that the DW location could be a problem. It would block the door to the dining room, which depending on how much you use the dining room, could be a minor inconvenience or a major problem. You couldn't start loading the DW until the table was completely cleared, because once you started, there would be no way into the kitchen.

I still like this layout better than the peninsula versions. Having an alternate route in and out of the kitchen eliminates any worry about the lack of "protection" for the cook. I find that, any time I am prepping at the island or stirring at the stove, others naturally go around the other side of the island to get to the fridge. The island serves so many purposes for us and makes the kitchen feel much more open and less confining.