THe deal is done.
The house conveyed without the shelf.
She loses out.
Tell your realtor to get a backbone.
If the buyer continues to ask for the shelf, just say NO!

I'm not a lawyer but if the shelf isn't in the contract there isn't anything she can do. I would think any lawywer will her that. Should she try to pursue it small claims she'll have to follow some procedures - summons? certified letters? and then I think the judge would likely throw the whole thing out.
I'd tell your realtor, who you were unhappy with anyway -
deal is done, don't want to hear from you again unless its something by certified letter. Put a block on your phone for both the buyer and the realtors phone numbers and live in peace.

Thanks everyone, for your very heartfelt and wise responses.

You echo my gut feeling (always always trust your gut) ... I'm going to stop the madness still going on with this freak show (even after the closing!! ARGGH) and ignore her.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go look at the nice hefty check we got from the sale, just one more time ...

You are not obliged to do anything. If it was not specifically in the contract then she is not entitled to it and SHE KNOWS THIS. If you wanted to keep your ceiling fan you have to exmept that in the contract. Since the shelf is not a lighting fixture nor an appliance then it is your personal property. The law is on your side. She has no recourse.

You echo my gut feeling (always always trust your gut) ... I'm going to stop the madness still going on with this freak show (even after the closing!! ARGGH) and ignore her.

Do you really think she'll just go away?

I think I would pick up the phone and mention how you're being harassed and that you will start call tracing if she keeps calling. Tell her one last time whatever line you wanted to pick about why she isn't getting the shelf, then hang up.

roselvr -- thank god she's not calling me directly, just my agent (or having HER agent call MY agent) ... and that's what I paid my agent a hefty commission to deal with, so more power to her ...

Why do people have to be soooo dang petty? Is it just human nature and that 'i'll get something for nothing' attitude?

My best friend has her home on the market and one very interested buyer buyer asked her if she would include all the LR furniture. Being the house had been on the market all thru winter, my friend decided to just let the woman have her way. Making matters worse, she came back a few days later with her inspector, who concluded a small area at the botom of the garage door had OLD termite damage, that had already been treated, and it was obvious none of the critters had 'lived' there for years. My friend decided to confront the woman, and asked her to make the decision, furniture or another termite treatment. It was obvious enough couldn't be done for this woman, when the realtor called and said she wanted BOTH! My friend stuck to her guns and said absolutely not.

I'm beginning to think that prospective buyers have the belief that selling a home means you're desparate. ;o)

patty_cakes

She sounds like a pain in the neck. However, I am going against the vast majority (okay, everyone) and suggesting that she does in fact have a right to the shelf due to the manner in which it was attached. Here is a definition of a fixture from a realtor's website:

"A "fixture" is moveable personal property, which, by means of bolts, nails, screws, cement, glue, or other attachment method, has been converted to real property."
Someone talked about screwing photographs to the wall. I don't think we are talking about apples and apples. Who actually screws photographs directly to a wall?--I may have a wall anchor in the wall, but the photographs themselves hang freely and thus do not meet the definition of a fixture. I am guessing the shelf was actually screwed directly to the wall, not freely hanging from something else that was in the wall. If that is they case, that the shelf was directly screwed to the wall, then the shelf meets the definition of a fixture and should be returned or compensated for since it was not excluded. If it hung freely, like most artwork, then it is not a fixture and the op can have a free and clear conscience about keeping the shelf.
FTR, I am a new realtor, and while I would hate to go after someone for such small potatoes, I am overly attuned right now to the letters of the law.
Joanne

jojoco, if that's the case, then anyone who has a small shelf in their bathroom that they attached themselves would have to leave it. Nope. If it was a medicine chest, ok, but not a piece of personal property.

Many people have little shelves as decorations in the kitchen to hold trinkets or plates. That doesn't mean they stay because they are screwed into the wall.

it was not brought up at the closing table, even though it was mentioned before closing. The buyer (who is a realtor) knows better.

There's been a few posts, someone asked about mounted stereo speakers, saying leave the brackets in case new owner wants to hang their own - they were "screwed in" of course - which is ridiculous if you think about it. The mounts are probably made for the speakers in this case turning them from staying with the house to personal property. Had the seller left the mounts they might never hang their speakers again because the mounts may not be available. They probably wouldn't even fit with someone else's speakers.

Arguing over a wicker shelf to me is unbelievable. Wicker is one of those things, either you like it or you don't. The shelf could have been part of a hamper / bathroom set. If I would have seen it in a house I considered buying, it would be considered a wall decoration, nothing else. I surely wouldn't expect that they'd leave it.

I went to ebay and searched wicker wall shelves and came up with the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: ebay Wrought iron& wicker ivy wall shelf

patty_cakes: Yes, I do believe that every buyer is walking around now with a huge chip on their shoulder, thinking sellers are DESPERATE to sell their house and we will do ANYTHING to get an offer/seal the deal. I blame the media and their constant doom and gloom about the state of the market at the moment. (BTW, I live in the midwest where the so-called "buyer's market" and tanking housing prices is not even applicable, but everyone thinks it's reality because that's what they hear on the evening news.)

This woman tried to pull several things which led me to believe she thought she was doing us a favor by making a full price offer (even though the appraisal showed we were asking LESS than the home was worth).

Her entire attitude through the whole process was "The minute I put that offer down and it was accepted, this house is mine and I'll treat it as such."

For example, she made her offer on a Thursday. She had her inspection done the Sunday after the offer. That Monday morning after the inspection, my grandfather died and I had to travel out of state for his funeral. We let our agent know that we did not want any backup showings or anyone in the house that week while we were dealing with the funeral. Apparently, our grief was not a good enough reason to keep her out of our house. She called not once, not twice, but THREE times that week to try to come through the house just to show it to her mother. Yes, it was explained to her the first time why she couldn't visit that week. She didn't care.

And the list of stunts she tried to pull goes on from there.

Ariadne, i'm so sorry to hear about your loss, and the insensitive, selfish, ignorant, rude~you get the picture~~buyer! As for the IL market, my bestfrind's home is still on the market~it's been over a year now. She's staged it beautifully, but the in-ground pool seems to be more of a hindrance, than an asset~who'd 'thunk.'

Did you move out of state, or are you staying in the same city? Buy a new home? Best of luck to you. ;o)

patty_cakes

Is there any proof the shelf ever existed and isn't a figment of the buyer's imagination?

"What shelf?"

I think Jojo is correct. Window treatments (blinds, cornices, curtains) all must stay. Once something is attached like the shelf, it becomes part of the house unless the seller says that it does not convey BEFORE the contract is signed.

I have a question. More and more people are purchasing flat screen TVs that are mounted on the wall. Are they automatically gonna be considered part of the sale??? Would that buyer demand the TV come back?

Good question Christopher. In our last house the buyer asked us to leave the fs tv. Since he paid full price on the first day, we said yes.
But I don't know. It sounds like it could be considered a fixture and should be excluded.

jo

I have a flat screen mounted on the wall in my kitchen and we hadn't thought about including it in the sale, but EVERY person that has come through my house has asked if it was staying. If it was me, I wouldn't want to pay for someone's used tv for the next 30 years.

I think Jojo is correct. Window treatments (blinds, cornices, curtains) all must stay. Once something is attached like the shelf, it becomes part of the house unless the seller says that it does not convey BEFORE the contract is signed.

Curtains are considered personal property here and not sold with the house unless the buyer makes a deal or seller includes them.

I have a question. More and more people are purchasing flat screen TVs that are mounted on the wall. Are they automatically gonna be considered part of the sale??? Would that buyer demand the TV come back?

If I had one I would make sure it was specifically written as excluded to stop people from assuming. This is something new people have to consider, we didn't have this problem years ago.

I have an antique mantle surround that leans against the brick fireplace~not attached by nails, screws, etc. When looking at it, you would swear it was attached because i've added trim to make it snug around the brick. Will I need to stick a post-it on saying 'does not comply'? I've seen this done in homes that have antique light fixtures, and anything else that isn't attached, which I would consider a home decor item, such as 'the shelf'.

There's a difference between a shelf hanging on a wall versus attached to a wall. ;o)

patty_cakes

Will I need to stick a post-it on saying 'does not comply'?

The word is convey, not comply. You should specifically exclude it in the listing agreement AND label it. Or better yet remove it before you list the house.

I ould absolutely assume that mantel is attached, and you need to do SOMETHING to make sure a buyer doesn't assume it comes with.

In fact, if you don't want to leave it, take it OUT! If I saw your house, and then realized that I'd be left with NO mantel around a fireplace, I'd pass on the house bcs I'd be too overwhelmed at the idea of getting one. I'd personally vote for leaving it as part of the house.

dalynn: I think Jojo is correct. Window treatments (blinds, cornices, curtains) all must stay. Once something is attached like the shelf, it becomes part of the house unless the seller says that it does not convey BEFORE the contract is signed.

Not in all areas. They have to be written into the contract in order to stay in my area of NYS (unless the sellers are dumping them on you when they leave, er "gifting" them to you).

(unless the sellers are dumping them on you when they leave, er "gifting" them to you).

I hate to think I am dumping my rods & shades / blinds on any buyer & if they specify they don't want them, I will gladly take them with me. I understand my taste may not match the next person; so I will add it to my list of things to remember when signing the contract.

My son has friends that would love to get freebies that originally came from Penneys, heck so would I.

Most rods can be reused, the shades I could probably take to have recut. Most windows around here are similar in size, so I could give them away if they didn't fit my new place.

To me, I hate to see waste. If something is still good and matches my stuff, sure I'll use it. I would love to find a house that already had decent blinds & shades up so that I didn't have to rush to buy new so that everyone had privacy when we moved in.

The people I bought the house from prior to this one took the built in shelves in my daughters room-leaving big gaping holes where they were anchored in the wall...I couldnt believe it....We didnt find out till the walk through that they werent included. Unfortunately, we had just been through a mess with the sale of my house,(almost a month in a hotel at christmastime-unexpected, and not planned on, don't even ask-you don't want to know...) and I didnt have any fight left in me-we ended up spackling the holes, and wallpapering the room-but that was some kind of nerve. My real estate agent was pretty useless as well-it had been a long haul and we all just wanted it over with already. The walk through was the same day as the closing-in fact it was a few minutes before...and I had my dog and kids waiting in the car for us.

They did however leave the really awful "curtains" that the wife "created" as they proudly stated-without sewing....Basically they were 2 different non-matching fabrics flung over a piece of wood.

roselvr that's why it is probably best to ask. I immediately threw out the curtains in every house we bought. Open windows were preferable to many of the "curtains" left behind. What is my taste may not be your taste, and what is your taste may nor be my taste.

Re: curtains - in my area it seems to be customary to leave some kind of privacy covering on the windows in bedrooms and bathrooms (seems like most people leave the cheapest possible plastic miniblinds or white polyester sheers) but other rooms can be left bare. Except for one room, we had not yet gotten around to replacing the PO's ugly faded plastic miniblinds because we had not redecorated those rooms yet and I just couldn't bring myself to inflict them on someone else. So I spent about $150 at JCPenney and bought cordless pleated shades for the three upstairs bedrooms and bath. I figured they were fairly inoffensive, would go with pretty much everything that the new owners might have, and were cordless to appeal to the safety-minded parent. ;-)

Our agency has a form that you fill out listing just about anything anyone can possibly think of and checking off either "included", "excluded", or negotiable". We specifically EXcluded all curtains but INcluded the curtain rods that were currently installed, wood blinds and the pleated shades. I figured it would be relatively easy to remake our curtains to fit many sizes of window that we would be encountering but wood blinds would be a lot harder to translate to another size window. Never mind that they match the window trim in this house. And with the curtains, I think very few people are likely to like a large-scale purple, beige, green and brown "impressionist" floral fabric for their curtains. So why leave them? They cost me a mint and someone else is just going to throw them out!

Thanks everyone, now I need to ask myself if it's something i'll use in my next home, or sit around and take up space.

I'm removing a couple of light fixtures for the simple reason I would be sick if I found out they were taken down and thrown away. One is from the '30's, the other a chandlier, from the 60's. They work well with my furnishings, but *everyone* ain't me. ;o)

patty_cakes

I'm not sure about flat screen TV's in places like living rooms and bedrooms, but realtors here ask people to remove any equipment from home theaters before putting their homes on the market if they do not intend on selling it with the house. Some people will put a list of equipment that does not convey, or will just replace it with something cheaper before listing the house.

Here, window treatments that are attached to the wall in some permanent manner must convey unless noted prior to the contract. Most people want things like window blinds, but are willing to let the homeowners take things like curtains. When we sold our last home the buyers wanted our LR cornices and we had to leave them since we had not listed them in the contract.

Every house I've ever bought (Ohio & California), I had to specifically ask for blinds and curtains to be included, if I wanted them, if they were not already listed as staying. But the curtain rods were always automatic. It seems to me that blinds attached to the frame should stay, just like the rods, unless specifically exempted. That wicker shelf, though, no matter how attached (unless it was a really substantial shelf that gave the appearance of being permanent) I would assume was a decorative item that would not stay; especially if it matched hampers & such.

As an attorney and a broker, I have to say that inside knowledge isn't something to worry about. If I wanted the darned shelf and was a buyer I would still have to take you to small claims court, because its not a fixture since it hung on two nails just like a picture frame. There are no shortcuts, escrow is closed--she wants something, she's going to have to take you to small claims court. Having also served as a small claims judge pro tem, I can tell you, this is not going to be easy for her. I'm sure there is going to be more, so just wait and see what else she doesn't like. If you give her $30 now, she's going to criticize the dishwasher and need $600.

I'd ask your buyer:

"What part of CLOSING don't you understand ?"

Ariadne, so what's the outcome re:the shelf? Inquiring minds want to know! ;o)

patty_cakes

Well, the last we heard was her agent saw my agent at some conference two weekends ago and brought it up. My agent passed it along to us and we said "Okay, thanks for letting us know, moving on now" ...

We haven't heard a peep since.

Which could mean a) she didn't want it as bad as she thought she did, or b) she's preparing her case for small claims and we'll be getting a summons any day now!

Me thinks she's cooled her heels, A! Like I said in my other post, buyers seem to have gotten nasssssty!

If she takes something as infinitesimal as a $30 shelf to small claims court, the woman is a bloomin' idiot!

Keep us posted as the saga unfolds, A. ;o)

patty_cakes

Ignore her, she's looking for attention. Like one poster wrote, let her head explode! ! Love that!! If she is stupid enough to bring it to small claims court I'm sure the judge would laugh her out of the court room. What a waste of taxpayers money!!

I think what I would have done when she 1st mentioned the shelf is say "okay" then find one at a garage sale or Kmart and leave that for her. Of course, that would take time when you are already busy and it sounds like the issue resolved itself. I think some of these buyers just want to see the seller jump hoops for them because they know it is a buyers market.

I'm normally a lurker but really enjoy this forum. A relative of mine had a similar experience. I would encourage you to look closely at your contract to see if this is addressed. In my state there is a line (in all caps and bold lettering) that reads: Closing shall constitute acceptance of the property in its then existing condition unless provision is otherwise made in writing.
The transaction is closed. End of discussion. You can't start negotiating again now or it would never end.

The saga continues! *sigh*

My agent called me today to let us know the buyer was going to replace the shelf and "other items" (I have NO idea what these "items" could be) and send us a bill for their replacement.

We told her any "bill" we got would be shredded and returned in tiny little pieces. Our agent wasn't too happy we weren't going to just roll over and pay the buyer off. I'm sorry, but I'm sure the bill we get is going to be for some outrageously expensive amount and I'm not just going to agree to pay it.

It looks more and more like this is going to drag out to the very bitter end.

Just WHO is your agent working for???? You or the buyer???

Because I have a funny feeling she's clueless.
And HOW much money did you give her?

Maybe talk to her broker and if you get nowhere, consult your real estate attorney that handled the closing. Pay the $50 and have him/her write a letter telling the buyer to go lay down! I know the letter is probably more than the cost of a shelf but now it's the principle.

She'a suffering from buyer's remorse. It's common and she wants to get every last dime out of you for all the "problems" she thinks she sees.

Hate to say it but I would consult an attorney. This is getting way out of hand.

This "woman" is a realtor; she knows it should have been hashed out at the closing table. Since she signed, I don't see how she has a leg to stand on.

This isn't going to go away. Sounds like she will keep nickle & diming you.

I do wonder if she & your realtor are friends...

Honestly. I'd rather pay an attorney to send her a letter than to give her one red cent for the shelf. Contacting your agent's broker is a great idea too. Sounds like your buyer needs to up her meds a bit.

I'm sorry you have to go through this.

I cannot believe this.
I'm curious - other REAs that read this board: How would you have handled this?
My thinking is that if your agent wants to entertain the buyer's issues - then she should handle them with her commission check.
Seems to me that when you pushed away from the closing table and cashed the check, you were done.

I do wonder if she & your realtor are friends...

If they aren't friends, they are certainly colleagues in the same industry in the same town. Your agent has to be more interested in making her happy--she's already got YOUR money. Now she wants to keep this other agent's good will.

I'd call the broker, and a real estate lawyer. The "bitter end" should have been at the closing.

she's going to spend money, and just bill you? without your approval, etc.? I don't think so. All adjustments to a real estate transaction are handled in the negotiations, before closing, and agreed to by BOTH parties. You can't just say, "oh, you owe me."

Did you hire a lawyer to handle the closing for you? If so, I'd contact him/her to discuss what's going on. Sorry you're going through this.

"My agent called me today to let us know the buyer was going to replace the shelf and "other items" (I have NO idea what these "items" could be) and send us a bill for their replacement."

If your agent had done her job correctly, this never would have happened. Isn't this why people HIRE RE agents? To prevent problems like this from happening? Now that she has cashed her commission check (and no longer has to answer to you), it sounds like she is trying to work some extra compensation for your buyer.

I think deee has a point. "I'd rather pay an attorney to send her a letter than to give her one red cent for the shelf. Contacting your agent's broker is a great idea too."

That's ridiculous. I agree with calling your own agent's broker, and letting him/her know that you are not to be harassed over items such as this. Any items of concern should absolutely of been spelled out at the walk through and certainly no later than the closing. Nip this in the bud now, or I think it will continue to snowball.

Unbelievable.

Best of luck with your new place, and try not to let this ruin it for you.

Nat

The buyer had her final walk through the day before closing and mentioned to my agent that she thought the wicker shelf came with the house.

Your agent blew it right here. She, having been notified of this, needed to have made sure this was nailed down before the signing. She should have told you, she should have gotten your reply back to the buyer, etc.

That is why you were paying her. You *need* to call the broker and complain.

I am an attorney and I say you advise your now former agent in writing that the sale of the property is a closed issue. If it was not included in the contract, it does not go with the house. Once she signed off and the sale was closed - that's it. There are no "go backs" and "do overs". Your former agent can appease her all she wants, but you are done. A court will only accept as evidence - what the contract says. We call it the "four corners of the contract" - other stuff like what she thought, or what she said or what someone else said - is not admissable evidence. And there is a universal rule - anything involving land, must be in writing. So if she wanted a wicker shelf, or anything else, it had to be in the contract and she should raise the issue at closing or she has waived it. (Claiming it was a fixture is a load of cr*p too. A fixture is defined as being permanently attached to the building that actually affects or has some function relavent to the building - like a light, or say the mirror in a bathroom that is attached to a wall - not an obviously inexpensive temporary shelf).

I wouldn't put up with the harrassment.

Under no circumstance give anything that was not spelled out in the contract or agreed to in writing. This person makes her way in life and gets what she wants by being a jerk, hoping to pester people into getting what she wants usually for free. A huge waste of energy but apparently she has been successful at it. Do not fall for it. Do not be a nice guy just to shut her up. Too many people have already done that - and that is why she thinks she can continue to get away with it.

I had an acquaintance like her ... ignore her and she'll eventually run out of steam. Move on and tell your agent (in writing) to quit bothering you or you will report her to her broker.

Or ask around your friends, find one with a son or daughter who just passed the bar and pay them a hundred bucks to write a letter.

You should not waste another moment of your time with this.

So, what finally happened?

LA

Inquiring minds want to know! ;o)