A few comments....

I think its an ok idea if you think you have the space you need elsewhere in the house to replace the loss of the family room.

This partly assumes that you plan to be in the house long term, so the loss of the family room won't hurt at resale. That said you have left enough room in the eating area for some furniture, so it could be marketed as a "keeping room" or "sitting room" while the main living room becomes the family room.

In our home, which we plan to be in long term, we turned the original dining room into a pantry/laundry room with the message center (its right off the kitchen).

The original living room is now the dining room.

We were partly able to do this because the prior owners added a room off the family room about 12 years ago.

Bottom line, if it works for you and gives you a better kitchen, go for it.

It's easy to see the appeal of a larger, more open kitchen.
But if you ask the question another way - "Would you trade your family room for a breakfast room?" then my answer would be a resounding "No!"

You have enough space to get the job done --
What spaces do you want and need most? You need a kitchen, clearly. Also a place to eat. And a place to sit and socialize.
Three needs. Currently four rooms.
Do you need a 'formal' dining space more than a more 'formal' living space?
It's easy to assume you 'need' a breakfast room until you live in a house with a dining room that's casual enough to use every day. Have you considered plans like that?

I am all for reallocating rooms for what the homeowners' needs are. So, what is your main objective here? Do you another eating space? Are you trying to enlarge the kitchen? Is there something about your dining room that you don't like? What if you knocked down the wall between the kitchen and DR, added an island in the kitchen and kept the family room as a family room. That would make it one big Great Room with the kitchen in the middle. Is that a fireplace at the end of the family room? Looks like in your plan you have cabinets now at the far end of the family room?

I think if you state your objectives here, people would be able to steer you in a certain direction. Most people who post here tend to ask about eliminating an eating area(getting rid of formal DR and making it the everyday eating area), not adding one in.

I have to laugh because I am currently considering swapping my dining room (open to the living room below) with my kitchen -- which would give me the open kitchen-family room with formal dining room that you currently have. I love your current layout. But I always prefer the kitchen to be part of the family room. I like to be part of things. I would not want to dedicate my family room to a second eating area, but that's just me. Probably because I grew up in a ranch house with an open kitchen, and I like to watch movies while I bake.

I agree with Sweeby about the trading of living space for dining space. I would not want to purchase a home with only one living area but two dining areas. it seems to be an unnecessary loss of space. I would rather open the wall from the kitchen to the dining room and have only one eating area and keep my family room space. It would really be necessary to figure out how you use your home.
If you like the open concept then a very nice semi-formal dining space where your dining room currently is located could be created by just creating a peninsula between the kitchen and dining room. You could then just extend the kitchen space into the family room a couple of feet and really have a very nice and functional space.
I really do like the kitchen floor plan you have posted, but I do not think I personally would like to give up the living space to achieve it.

Now I'm confused what to do. I recently bought this house so have never experienced living in it. The dining room has been updated recently and looks great with the french doors and 2 additional floor-length windows which is why I was thinking of leaving that intact, although it's true it would only be used for guests.

One thing I need to have is a place to put a TV. If you look at the current family room, the only wall without windows is the garage wall, and then you would need a couch on the opposite side which would block access to the french doors. This is why I would half-open up the living room and place the TV there. (the other wall has a fireplace.) Then the former living room would become the new family room, while leaving the new informal dining area available for day-to-day eating, homework, etc. The current family room is quite big so the table could even be downsized (only 4 people in family), and so maybe allow a play area in there as well.

Is everyone suggesting that the dining room be opened up to the kitchen for a day-to-day eating area, and then there would be 2 family rooms (current on + living room)?

I'd be tempted to take out the wall between the kitchen and the dining room or flip the kitchen into the dining room.

What kind of lifestyle do you and your family enjoy most? Do you like to entertain formally or just kick back with family and friends? That would help drive a solution to your question.

I personally am a fan of informal living to include large open areas that bring the outside in as much as possible. I would utilize the dining space with the french doors and windows as much as possible and not want to designate it as a space used infrequently for formal dining. Do you have an outdoor living space that the french doors and family sliders open to? Is there alot of traffic that would go to and from there? A little more info will help us better assist you. I look forward to your response so I can narrow my focus and come up with ideas that would suit your family and needs.

We would rarely entertain formally, mostly relax with family/friends.

Since this is in northern CA, I imagine the outdoor patio space next to family room slider will be used quite a bit. This patio space contains a round, built-in wooden table with a wood-spaced overhang connected to the house. (I forget what that's called). I imagine the traffic between this area would be the greatest. The dining room french doors opens to a lawn (small concrete path separates them). So no traffic there, but a pleasant view.

Personally, I wouldn't get rid of the wall between your DR and kitchen, especially since it's pretty in there. I find that my kids sit still to eat their dinners much better in a more formal setting. Plus, I don't like to look at the kitchen mess when I'm eating. Too stressful.

I have a very similar layout as you, except my dining room is in between the kitchen and family room. My preference would be to have the kitchen where you have yours currently so that I could keep the formal dining space (I do like to LEAVE the kitchen for sit down meals) while still having an open kitchen with an informal eating space (island or peninsula) facing into the family room.

From your layout, it looks like you might be able to fit your TV on the wall next to your family room slider and the sofa on the garage wall, no? Also, instead of eliminating your family room space and swapping rooms around, etc., what about moving the family room patio door down a bit closer to the kitchen so that you can fit a sectional on the window wall, with the short part of the sectional on the patio door wall, then have your TV on the garage wall. I just think you have a lot of much less expensive options for that family room that don't involve eliminating an entire living space.

One thing that was suggested to me when we moved into our fixer (and turned out to be excellent advice): live in the house for a while before you start making too many plans. You might be surprised at what you really like and really want to change about the house once you've been living with the arrangement for a few months. I was told to live in a place for 6 months before I started making decisions. My "plans" from when I first moved into our house last year are dramatically different than what I want to do now.

What is that opening on the left side of the long entry way? Does that lead to the bedrooms or is the a 2 story home with the bedrooms upstairs?

One more question... how much "demo" do you wish to do? Taking out walls will impact flooring in the living area. Is it the same floor throughout? Type? Do you have extra flooring to tie in/replace if you were to take out walls and you had to fill in with the same flooring?

Technically.... I guess that was more then ONE more question!

The left side of the entryway leads to bedrooms. It's a rectangular rancher, 1966. Not my favorite house type, but pretty much my only choice in this area.

Since we're not living there, the amount of demo done doesn't matter, although I'd like to get in ASAP without sacrificing quality of course. 2nd child is due in June.

Flooring is hardwood throughout, entryway is tile. Dining room and living room is random plank, other rooms are uniform planks. I prefer the older random plank hardwood. Also, the original family room is a half of foot lower than the rest of the house, and is on slab. The other rooms have a crawlspace.

As for a TV next to the slider in the family room, a small one, yes. A 52" one to watch movies, no.

I was thinking that a partial vaulted ceiling in the living room might be nice since there is plenty of space in the attic area. (Roof slopes towards front/back of house.) Budget is around 100K. Thanks everyone for your ideas.

Don't know about your area in No.Cal., but around here in So.Cal., $100K budget does not take you very far once you start moving walls. It looks like you have a lot of options without doing major wall-moving demo. Is the house unlivable or could you get along in it for a while so that you can get a better feel for how it lives?

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you might be heading into deep waters with your design and you're in a really big hurry because of a new baby coming. Since I am now sitting in a 1964 fixer split level as a result of what I call "nesting overdrive," I would caution you to maybe take a break and make sure you think everything through very carefully before moving ahead with any demo plans right now.

I would leave the newly redone dining room because you like it- we are of a rare breed that still use ours- ie grandparents over for dinner and even friends-decorating can make it more everyday-a new dining set would be cheaper than moving walls- I would still enlarge kitchen but leave a smaller family room as living space and create more informal dining w/counter stools at a larger island angled toward family room (more of a great room feel)-I've seen table heighth attached to islands-check out the finished kitchen blog if you haven't-lots of island ideas-We added a larger island and more seating in our kitchen and I find most meals and homework are done on the island- it is convenient to have the younger kids right there when you are making dinner I find- also can you hang a flatscreen tv in the corner? This is what works for us - but your family may have different habits. I have to agree w/ previous blog- you may want to live there first and see what your life style will be.

Interesting, everyone, including contractors who I have talked with have said that moving internal walls is trivial. Vaulted ceilings, moving windows, doors etc is potentially more expensive, but moving internal walls is nothing according to every single one who I spoke with. So I'm a little confused that you write that 100K won't go far when it comes to moving walls.

Everyone has also said it's much better to stay out of the house while remodeling is being done if at all possible. So this is why we decided to wait it out. I figure might as well get it over with now.

Maybe I should add a table to the island to allow for more space for an additional family room. Thanks.

Well, it may be trivial, it may not. What you have to ask is:

1. Are they load bearing walls
2. Do they contain pipe / plumbing runs
3. Do they contain plumbing drains
4. Do they contain HVAC ducts that need relocated
5. etc, etc.

there is no one answer

You know, Yoyoma, when people speak of separate rooms for dining, they usually talk about the formaldiningroom. But there's no such thing, there're just many thousands of spaces that've been decorated to exclude daily family use, and it's so often such a waste to squander prime space gathering dust.

Yours looks delightful. WHY would it mainly be used for guests? You have a reason, of course. For 30 years our friend Arlene's kept their living and dining room for guest use, with the third bedroom serving for family dining and living. That's just what she requires of her home for it to make her happy, and it's worked for them.

But maybe it's a more flexible issue. If the decor's too delicate for daily use, could you rework it to feel right for family and guest use? A table that doesn't show fingerprints will look glamorous in a twinkle with a nice tablecloth. Does it feel too dark for morning use?

If there's something about the space that makes you not want to sit there in a robe, like being in line with the front door, could you fix that somehow, by framing in a 5'-deep transition zone behind the entry, with French doors available for closing as needed? By widening the dining room so the table can shift right?

Our daughter has French doors separating their kitchen at the back of the house from the front entry and another set separating their single dining area from the living room. Both are actually never closed but somehow serve an important emotional-comfort function just by being available. And they look good.

Maybe it's that there are only windows on one wall? How about extending the whole room 3 or 4 feet into the back garden and wrapping the three sides with windows? Making a large closable passthrough to the kitchen?

I've probably irritated you further, so don't answer, just working out my compulsive kneejerk reaction on this subject.

OK, I'm about to go crazy now. :) There are literally dozens and dozens of ideas floating around that I'm starting to feel like a deer stuck in headlights. Everytime I bring a designer/contractor in to take a look they have a different way they want to go with it. To me they all make sense in it's own way, so which one do I go with? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe?

I kind of wish the most preeminent (KD) designer in the world would come in and say, do it this way, period. I know I have to live with it, but I like all the ideas I can't make up my mind. Aargh! This is frustrating.

As one who has lived with only one 12x24 living space for fourteen years, I completely sympathize with the lack of options for such a narrow space. However, I think you'll be sorry if you eliminate the living room completely. As I am typing now, I am wondering if you could push that family room toward the backyard a few feet?

Anyway, here is one idea. It involves building a foyer and opening up that living room. Do you have a coat closet somewhere? If not, you may be able to put on in the foyer.

I tried to keep all traffic through the kitchen out of the cooking zone. Another option is a U-shape with no island. I changed the slider to a swing and meant to put a window over the couch but I forgot. On second thought, you don't want a window glaring into your TV.

Many homes combine the formal dining and living spaces. I put a skinny sofa table behind the loveseat for lighting and pictures. Then I put a china cabinet next to that loveseat just to see if it would fit.

Hope this helps.

Please excuse some of the ugly furniture!

It is very frustrating(that's why I still don't have a final layout and I've been working on this for about a year). I truly believe there is more than 1 good layout and all layouts have their positives and negatives. In the end(as I said, I'm not there yet), you just need to find the one you think works best for you. Have you looked at any magazines or books to see what layouts you gravitate towards? Do you definitely want an island? Would you be happy with a "U" shape? How many eating tables do you want? I think you first need to decide what your priorities are. It's great to get ideas from "the experts", but in the end, it's your kitchen and it has to work for you. And trust me.....I'm sure you'll come up with some ideas that no one else will have ever thought of.

It is somewhat unfortunate that you won't be able to live in your house before embarking on this big remodel. We did our kitchen almost 13 years ago(after only living in our house for 1 year) and for a number of reasons, we are redoing it again. The way I want it now is nothing like my current kitchen.

Personally, I would take out the wall between DR and kitchen, expand the kitchen space somewhat into the family room and leave space for a family room.

Good luck!!!

Hmm, thanks for the additional ideas. Curently the original U-shaped (penninsula) kitchen from 1966 is there. Everyone who sees it says to remove the pennisula to open it up to the former family room, and I tend to agree with that.

I wouldn't mind having one dining table, plus one everyday eating table, although this is just how I had it when I was growing up so maybe I'm just used to that.

An island with a couple of seats and a prep sink would be nice. My feeling about the living room is I don't need it, hence it becomes the new family room when opened up.

I've looked at lots of books etc but nothing really matches my configuration due to one thing or another.

It seems most people online here recommend living in it first for a while, while everyone offline who I physically talk to says I'm smart to wait until it's finished. As for the current setup, so much would go to waste, ie living room, that I don't mind not living there. I may not know what I want exactly, but I know it's nothing like what's there now. I want to open it up a bit, while still maintaining sections so people can do different things at the same time without bothering each other, ie watching TV in one room, homework in another.

I do know that I don't want any additions or bumpouts, I want to keep work confined to what's there as there's plenty of space to work within that layout I feel.

Well, thanks everyone, some food for thought which I can digest and think about during the weekend.

I agree that you should be able to move interior non load bearing walls for within your budget. I have an entry into similar to yours and we don't have any interior wall there. The room space is delineated by furniture placement. You could always do a eating area with peninsula but I played around in Excel (since I'm not yet proficient with drawing programs) and came up with one layout that I would like. Keep in mind I'm a fan of open floor plans. I removed the bottom walls to the DR and kitchen... in fact I probably removed walls that you need but I don't know your structure and just gave it a shot. Couldn't you place a flat screen above the fireplace? I've seen that on home shows. Hope this at least gives you some ideas you can use.

Good luck!
Elyse

The bottom line is you need to call Candice Olson! ;>D

Thanks for the ideas Elyse. The notion of incorporating the dining room into an everyday eating area is intriguing. It makes sense, because why waste such a beautiful space just when entertaining. I'm torn whether to leave it enclosed or not. My older, traditional side of me says no way, while my younger, hip side says go for it.

I like the look, but unfortunately the problem comes back to TV placement. I never liked TVs on top of fireplaces because then I'm looking up, straining my neck even if it is angled down. I want to have proper placement, while still having everything else work. I'm not sure there is a perfect solution to this, but 2 more designer/contractors will see it next week and maybe they'll come up with something I haven't thought of before. Thanks.

yoyo... what if you placed a TV at an angle in the upper corner of the family room? The space should be able to handle a 40"+. You'd still have plenty of space for a second mega large TV in the living room area. It'll be interesting to compare the designers ideas. Keep us posted and good luck.

I would consider the size of how far away from the TV you will be and then decide on the size of TV from that. None of your rooms seem to support a 52" TV, but if that is what you already have then I understand working with it. It just seems like a 40" something would be a better size.

Now that said, I don't like formal spaces and unused areas and like your initial plan with a few exceptions. I wouldn't do any kind of built-ins or anything to make the current family room space smaller as without it can be used either way, family or dining if you so wished. Since the door to the garage is where it is the room is already limited by that size unless you put furniture against the outside wall. The width is very small and hard to place much furniture for normal family room living so as dining space it is more usable. You can't really put more than a chair facing the FP due to the door to the garage anyways so the final size really is what you have in your 2nd drawing as is now without the extra kitchen space. Hence I think your plan makes sense. You get more out of your kitchen.

I think this is a plan that would work for me, though I would use the 2nd dining as an office or playroom as we'd never use it as other dining space.

I would look at using the long side of the living room to place the sofa though and the garage wall for the TV as you will then maximize seating. Maybe open up the wall some into the entry to make it more open.

I like what you wrote about the current family room, "it can be used either way, family or dining if you so wished." I think that's what I'm going to try to do, have a small table in there configured in such a way so it can still be used as small, alternate family room. Maybe the table should be off to one side, or add benches to the periphery of the room under the garden window at the far side.

As for TV placement, the long side of the living room would be better, but due to the fireplace it's not possible since hanging it over the fireplace is too high for my taste. The living room is over 17 feet end-to-end length-wise which would make even a 52" TV feel small unfortunately. Thanks for the feedback.

Oh didn't realize you had a fireplace on the garage wall in the living room. Thought it was in the family room.

Update, I finally found a contractor who I like, and since they do the design part too, this is what they came up with. The TV would be on the garage wall side at top right. The main change they made is add a walk-in pantry, and move the slider door towards the kitchen and make it 2 feet smaller. How do people feel about the location of the pantry? Does this kitchen layout make sense? Thanks.

I like the addition of the half bath however I'm confused about the placement of the table. Isn't it blocking the doorway? There doesn't seem to be enough room between the chairs and bathroom door. Also, how much space between the stools on the overhang and the slanted wall of the new half bath? It appears to be less then 3' in which case it severely limits pathways. What are you planning to use the lovely nook for?

wouldn't really want a bathroom right next to my dining table. Grew up in a house like that. Didn't think it was wierd at the time, but I do now. Do you need that table there with the island seating and the DR right there?

I think the bathroom right off the dining room is very awkward and not a good idea.
As said already, don't quite understand the table placement??

Thanks for the feedback. Note that the formal dining room is at the top, left of the kitchen. The everyday dining table was added more as an afterthought because the contractor said seating at the island could potentially be expanded to 6 and he believes that is fine for everyday eating for a family of 4. When I told him I thought it might be awkward eating that way he added that dining table.

Even though the island seating is angled, it still seems like it would be awkward eating every day as a family like that. As a quick meal for the kids in the morning etc, I think that island seating is great, but not the nightly dinner, what do you think? If not, maybe there is some other place for a small table? Of course we could choose to use the formal dining room as the every day dinner table, while still using the island seating for breakfast etc, maybe that's the best way? But then the kitchen would not be open to the formal dining room, which I like for formal meals, but maybe not so much for daily dinnertime. Hmm.

Also, do you think the pantry is too far from the kitchen? I do like the idea of having a walk-in pantry a lot, although by shortening the kitchen from the right, cabinet space will be at a minimum.

The small bathroom is a phase 2 project, so it would be an empty nook for a while by the way.

Thanks for the ideas everyone.

I grew up in an old English Tudor. When my parents bought the house, the kitchen was a large room, but very outdated and utilitarian. They made that room the breakfast room (table and chairs that could seat 8), sideboard and hutch. Very roomy. Butler's pantry was torn out so that the back door then opened up to a wakway behind counter seating, which looked across cooktop into main kitchen area.

My point is, we had breakfast at the counter, but ate lunch or dinner with the entire family in the breakfast room. We also had a more formal DR.

I agree with others and do not think the table/chairs location is a good idea. With the bar seating, why not use the DR at lunch/dinner - it can be as informal as you want it to be. Then you'll have the keeping room off the kitchen for sofa/chairs and the larger LR.

I also like RemodelFla's idea as well - I am a fan of the open floor plan too - it seems more up to date, roomy and inviting than what your contractor has drawn out.

Have you thought about redecorating the "formal" dining room to make it casual enough to use every day? You've got some beautiful architecture in that room, and it's nicely located with respect to the kitchen and living room. Simply replacing any "too fancy" furniture with something "beautiful but durable" might allow that lovely space to be enjoyed every day. Seriously - Not dinette-set and vinyl cheesy, but a lovely sturdy wooden farm table, wooden floors or a casual rug, real art work... Having been forced to do that once (with a two year old, no less) and fallen in love with it, I would NEVER go back to a "breakfast nook" again...

Then simply remove the table from your floorplan above --

Why not just move the everyday table into the family room in front of the sliders? That would solve the table-by-the-bathroom and the blocking the doorway issues. Also, it makes sense to group the everyday eating area with the family room vs with the formal livingroom and dining room.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Moving the everyday table in front of the sliders won't work because the large screen tv will be on the opposite wall with a sofa, chairs etc so don't think a table can fit.

So the thing is, can it work by making the formal dining room informal enough to eat at everyday. Two issues then arise. One, when formal eating is required ie during a holiday etc, will the informal country motif be formal enough, or can it be converted with a tablecloth and maybe different chairs? I'm not sure. Two, the refridgerator is located on the opposite end of the kitchen, which might be too far for day-to-day eating. With kids, I'm up all the time getting one thing or another so I'm not sure, maybe the refrigerator should be relocated closer to the formal DR, although with the pantry it doesn't look possible.

I've never really understood the desire to have a living and a family room. In all the houses I've lived in and all the houses I've visited, the living room almost never gets used - just the family room. So I actually liked your original plan.

The only exception I've seen to this is with my husband's extended family. When we have family gatherings the "elders" tend to gather in the living room / dining room area and the younger set gathers in the family room area in front of the TV. But even that only happens about once a month or so.

But on to the new plan...

As far as the "formal" dining room is concerned, it all depends upon how formal and how casual you want to be. Our family growing up used the dining room fairly regularly. It was dressed up for special occasions with nicer tablecloths, napkins, special table settings. That and some candles or other decorations made it even more special. You can also get slipcovers for your chairs to dress them up.

On the fridge distance - have your kids fetch their own stuff. Seriously. Unless they're toddlers they can get their own things.

The original plan basically included 2 dining areas, and 1 "living" area, while the new plan includes 2 "living" areas and 1 dining area (+ small eating area on island). As has been mentioned previously by some others, I think I would rather have 2 "living" areas than 2 dining areas. My kids are 4 and 0 (due next month), so in the future maybe they can hang out in one area while still having another area for the adults, or 1 area for TV watching and another for reading etc.

As for the fridge distance, unfortunately they are too small to fetch stuff yet, but maybe that shouldn't be a deal-breaker. It does seem like something could be done to dress it up for those infrequent formal occasions. Thanks.

hi yoyo
i am a cello fan!! (former cello student). i just wanted to say that i think your dining room sounds nice. we are trying to put french doors into ours, but it needs custom doors so we are still saving. we do not eat anywhere else other than the formal dining room. we have kids and they are now learning to bring out the silverware, plates, and food to the dining room. i think it helps us all get together, since we don't start until everyone is seated, rather than one parent in the kitchen and another at the table. seriously, we had a high chair at the formal dining table for several years. now that kids are a little older we also have candles. it's not super formal (obviously) but it feels nice to eat there. eating together and not "on the run" is something many americans desire...that's what we have in our FDR, even if the menu is a take out pizza...consider it. you could be a trailblazer! (we of course are not really trailblazers because in our area, people are still traditional...the kitchen island is just hitting our area!!) kren

It's been a while, but here's a new idea, any thoughts? Someone suggested turning the DR into a reading room, and although at first I dismissed the idea, on second thought I think that may be a better idea, as I'll end up using that more often, looking out into the backyard watching the kids play in the evenings, and being able to read and hang out in a nice environment.

The new everyday DR would be connected to the outdoor dining area which would be nice for indoor/outdoor entertaining.

Since people have been saying that having a bathroom in such an open area is awkward, that would be turned into a small pantry, and a small half bath would be added below the new reading room (former DR), with a door from the hallway. A TV would be behind the new bathroom wall towards the living room.

Does anyone think think the TV wall is awkward? It's 9 feet to the LR window in front, but someone feels a little too tight to me. There's not much of a choice because I don't want to strain my neck by hanging it over the fireplace, and don't want to hang it in the reading room either since I'd rather enjoy the outdoor environment from there, and have some quiet, too. Thanks for any thoughts on this new layout.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but here's two more plans, what do you think?

Idea 6:

Idea 7:

I think I've decided that turning the old DR into a reading room and the old family room into the everyday DR is what I'm going to do.

Now I don't know whether the refrigerator should go on an interior wall as these last two plans show, or should it go on the exterior wall next to the slider doors as shown here:

Well, it turns out I got another plan from the KD and I like this by far the most. To me everything works and flows much better, however there is no more powder room. I still think I should go with this one. Any opinions? Thanks.