Wow!

I am not too far from you (western PA) and we paid just over $15,000 for our patio last year.

It included jackhammering the existing 16' x 8' concrete slab, three days of intense excavating of a hillside, two retaining walls (with drainage and electrical conduit), a gorgeous staircase and a large (~650 sq ft) patio.... plus the shrubs, plants and mulch delivered and installed.

Our design was on a napkin!
The owner came over while on lunch break of another job. We told him what we wanted; he sketched his interpretation. We gave our budget as 12 to 13 thousand. He came back with a price of 15. It ended up being 15,375.

We could have kept in within budget by going smaller and/or choosing cheaper materials.

I guess my point is... we got a whole lot more for less money!
AND I think it was irresponsible of him to go so far OVER your budget.

I would get some more estimates. I am sure you don't mean $18 million - $18K right?

I had a 200 SF interlocking paver patio put in 3 years ago for $3K. They also put in 2 planting beds. We had the pavers already but he changed the layout from a square to a nice curved shape so there were tons of end cuts.

Get 2 or 3 more estimates.

robyn,

Printers use the term "M" to mean thousands.

Are you in the printing biz no green thumb?

I would get a few more estimates.

sorry -- no, not the printing business. Math teacher in a former life -- roman numerals ----
So 18M would be 18,000, and it should be $18K when referring to money.
Anyhoo -- western pa - that is how we had our sunroom designed. DH drew up at few sketches and voila.
I paid $300 for the design. I know I probably could have had the same thing on the back of a paper bag. What he did do though was recommend some plants, which is something I am not good at.
I guess the real softie in me is saying - this guy came out twice, did a design (oh, yeah, I paid for that) and now he is probably not going to get the business. But that's sales. That's what I do as well. I don't get every account I pitch.
I just looked at the estimate again. It is $1,300 for the two steps, one off the kitchen, one off the laundry room.
And in Ohio, we pay sales tax on everything, so every charge has 8% added on to it.
And I guess I am kind of upset that he apparently had no regard for my wish of a $3K - $5K budget. He probably figured "these people have the money" so if I come in and razzle-dazzle, how can they say no?

I live in Northern Ohio also. We just had a patio done out of pavers. (they're actually finishing it as I type this) It's 600 sq. ft. and has retaining walls that go all the way around it. It was $12,000. The landscaping will be an additional $2000. We got four estimates. The guy we ended up going with originally quoted us somewhere between 18,000-23,000 which caused me to have heart palpitaions but it was for a more expensive paver. We ended up with a less expensive paver. We told him we weren't comfortable going over the 12,000 and if he could do it for that, fine. If not, we'd go with someone else. For all this money, I hope we end up SLEEPING on that patio-lol. Get more estimates.

did he break down the cost? For not much money you can rent a jackhammer and break out the concrete slab yourself, or hire local laborers to do it. I'd definately get more than one quote in any event. I found we learned something more each time we got a quote from someone. Also, i'd love to see what the design was for this $18K backyard!

Try skipping the middle man and not use a Landscape Contractor. After you pay this guy for his design call masons directly and get their bids. Become your own general contractor. Hopefully that will save some bucks.

Cind, mine was that much for 400 sq ft, no walls, just a step from each door.
Yes, dgmarie, he did break down the cost and I liked that part. The design was nice, but nothing really special for that amount of money. It was a simple patio, the flagstones carried out into the fern bed and about 15 -20 new plantings. The concrete slab needs to be taken out, but that is the only out-of-ordinary cost. There are no fountains, waterfalls, anything like that.
Now I am getting kind of angry, as I feel like I have wasted five weeks while waiting for this guy. That's one of my problems. I am always in a hurry to get things done, but am going to take this one slow and do it right. I asked for a small patio, and he doubled the size already there. So I need to put aside my "I like this guy" feelings and get down to the business of getting more people out here - and may the best guy win!! And yes, Flyingflower, I want to have someone out here who is actually going to do the work. I don't want to pay someone to contract out to someone else.

A few months ago we had some major work done to our place. It included jack hammering out the existing smaller slab of 12x30 on our patio and side yard. They poured a new concrete patio and walkway (stained in a Desert Sand color) , about 750 sf, and gave it the most fantastic "Roman tile" stamping. They hand-chiseled the edges of some of the tiles for a more realistic effect. It really looks like old tiles - each piece is wonderfully textured, and the stamping is made to look kind of like a random pattern. We have a retaining wall from the front to the back of our property, and they removed it, cut back into the elevated berm a little bit and created some curving lines to its path, and replaced the old wall with big interlocking pavers. They dug up about 20 oleander bushes (more like trees!) on top of the berm and lots of other very old and sorry-looking plantings in the backyard. They also removed the very ugly looking and insufficient front entry step that our GC built last summer and replaced it with two large half-moon shaped steps. No new plantings - just the hardscape work - and it came to about $12.5. Most excellent work. We're in SoCal, for a frame of reference. The link below takes you to a photo I clipped from the internet of the type of stamped concrete look we've got, but it's not ours (no pics yet).

Here is a link that might be useful: {{!gwi}}

I am sure he 1) didn't think he could make any money if he stuck to your budget, and 2)figures you are going to come back to him with a counter-offer, like "what can you do for $7,500?"

You could tell him that you have a firm budget of $XXXX, tell him you are going to get other bids, and then call some other landscapers. If he can afford to cut back his plan, I imagine he will.
Diane

I am currently having a patio installed in the Philly area.

This project includes a 21x24 dry-laid paver patio with an 18" sitting wall with three openings, a 23' long paver walkway, plus a terraced walkway up the side yard and a flagstone and riverrock sitting area.

My estimates ranged from $27K to 16K. We took the low bid... we tried out the guy on our front walkway and he did a great job.

When you fell on the floor after reading this guy's bid, did you break any bones? Can you slap him with a lawsuit for emotional damage?

How arrogant of him, to give you a bid that high after you told him your budget. The least he could have done is warn you verbally that your budget was lower than his estimate.

Get more bids. Get lots more bids. I got twelve bids before I made my choice.

OK maybe I'm way off here but don't you have the guys that do everybody's yard. You know the ones that come all in one truck and mow your yard once a week. Hire somebody like that and you'll stay within budget or even lower.

mlraff, I wouldn't hire those guys to put in a patio. There's so many other issues, like drainage and levelling and who knows what else.

She needs a pro.

Who do you think the professionals hire?
I live in Texas and those teams are more knowledgeable than anybody else. If they can't do it, they will recommend someone that can. Maybe it's just different here.

Yes, I do need a pro. I called a place today that sells the pavers. They don't sell the Unilock brand, but others and I can't remember the names. The lady said that they have over 700 authorized people on their list. She gave me the top three she would recommend. I have one appt. next week and one who is going to call me in a day or two. So that is a start. I told her that I did have a design done and was disappointed in that it was way over what I wanted. She knew who it was! - said they were famous for that and very high pressure. I am a sales person so I can deal with high pressure.
I have calmed down now and have realized this process will probably take a lot longer than I had anticipated, but I have wanted to get the current patio replaced for several years, so what's another month or so.
Thanks for all of the responses giving costs for what you have had done. It helps to know a little more about what the "going rates" are. I fully expect to pay someone for doing the job. But I want a small patio with nice plantings around it. His proposal was for one that will be about 24' x 28' give or take a bit for the curves. I have about a 10' x 20' there now and it more than plenty big enough. That's 200sq'. He is talking almost 700sq'. Yikes, that is big! No wonder he wants so much money.

Mlraff, I wonder if the process is different in Texas because of the climate. Maybe the drainage and the base, etc. isn't as much of an issue. We don't have anyone who does our lawn. DH does it. We have someone who comes in to do the fertilizer, but we do the cutting. What I don't want to happen is have someone give me a quote, then subcontracts. I don't want that middleman. We had that happen with our roof. We hired the supposed premier company around here - and who put in the roof - a little roofing company. The man said I should have called him directly and I could have saved some money. Who knew?

Mlraff, I think the landscape designer's proposal to you---given what you told him initially---is absurd and is written proof that he wasn't listening. I would not employ him for that reason, even if you decide to do a more extensive patio than you originally planned.

Sheesh. I don't blame you for feeling the guy was arrogant. That is just absurd.

Your issues with your yard did inspire me to do some work on mine, and I'm convinced I want to lay pavers in an area. But my paver guy is taking waaaay too long to get them for me. It's my DH and he's making them for me, but I don't want to wait till next August, so I might bite the bullet and go buy some.

I don't know why your patio can't be done within your budget. You've got a lot of the materials. Also, if you need a list of plants, check with your local master gardeners. They will give you a wealth of information on what will work where in your area. And if you're lucky, they'll have an in on the plants themselves. Every spring our MG put on a big plant sale and I get the best stuff there and these people know what they're talking about. Best of all, their advice is FREE.

It's a shame that you had to pay $300 for a design that was so different from what you specified, and I'm guessing you didn't give your requirements in writing to this fellow, who so clearly ignored your requirements. Since you're going to talk to other places about this job, I'd suggest putting what you want in writing, including the approx. patio size and your budget, and have them sign off on that before they do any quotes or work. Then, if they come back with something that isn't within those parameters, you can point out to them how their work doesn't meet the specs they agreed upon. Good luck!

Oh, and one other little bit of advice -- as you're getting more bids, ask if the contractor is actually going to be on the site with the crew.

I rejected several contractors because they run several crews simultaneously, and they are not on the site if something goes wrong or if you have a question.

No, Susie, I didn't give it to him in writing. But he sat in front of me taking notes. In fact, I pulled up an email I had sent him after he left telling him again I was looking for a simple patio to replace what I have. He did ask a lot of questions about how I was going to use the patio. I told him it was mainly for DH and me. We do entertain a lot, but most often it is not outside. Northern Ohio is just not conducive to that. So that is why I want to keep it simple. He wrote all this down. The most anger comes from that fact that it is now 5-1/2 weeks from my initial phone call to him and I have absolutely nothing. I could be well under construction by now.
But I will keep pressing on. He did give me a plant list.
And, Mclake, I do want to make sure he is here. I wouldn't mind if he has more than one crew, but I do not want to work with someone who subcontracts. I don't know how to prevent that though. It happened when we had our roof put on. Thanks for all the great advice.

When you interview another contractor, make sure you ask -- "How soon can you get the proposal back to me?" and "If I choose you, when can you start?"

I had a couple of contractors disqualify themselves because they (under questioning) admitted that they couldn't start the job for another three months.

yes, I plan to do that. This guy did say three weeks. I contacted him at that point and he did say it was done. Whether or not it was I don't know, but then my appt was one week later which was Wednesday. Yes, if someone is booked three months out, it is more likely four or more.
I have called the three that the paver supplier recommended. One is coming Tuesday, one is supposed to call me in a day or two, one has not returned my call. I am going to pull a few more out of the local paper and give them a call as well.

I'm so glad to hear that you're calling other contractors.

I had a week-long period where they were arriving at my house in waves, LOL.

One thing I did that was helpful, I kept notes after every meeting to keep track of what I liked and didn't like. Stuff like "Walked into my house in muddy shoes" and "scratched his crotch throughout meeting" and "arrived twenty minutes late and didn't apologize" were very helpful in reminding me which ones NOT to hire.

On the other hand "Called to say he'd be five minutes late" and "good listener" were helpful too.

And of course, I was shameless about stealing all their GOOD design ideas, LOL...

Exactly! I am in sales and pick up on all of the little things. The guy that came out first said it would be after 6. He called that afternoon to say he would be over at 4!! I told him I had a business appt and wouldn't be home until after 5:45. I told him I was looking at my email and it said after 6 and I planned my day accordingly. He first said next week - and I said then we have wasted one more week. He told me where he needed to be at 6 - and that was at least 30 -45 minutes from here.
So then he calls about 5:45 after I think he is not coming and said he would be there in 15 minutes.
I pick up on the very little things, like he marked the location of the gas line on my copy - didn't on his. Duh!

PS -- what was also interesting about this guy is that he seems so professional. He owns the company and there was a big write-up in a local paper. Big picture of the whole company on the front page and story inside. He wore a long sleeved white shirt with company logo. He had beautiful presentation material, folder with project pictures (have found out those are not his work - but Unilok pictures). He seemed very professional and I figured that even if he were more expensive, it might be worth it. Ha!
One thing that bugged me is that as soon as he sat down, his cell phone was on the table. The first time he came out he was sending a text message. I hate that, but it is very common. I don't know what was so important that it couldn't wait 20 minutes. Misuse of cell phones is one of my personal pet peeves. Some people are so rude with them.

no-green-thumb,

SO sorry to hear of your estimate troubles. We encountered a similar hitch in our patio plans when we went to a local upscale landscape and design center. It cost us $500 just to get a personal visit and recommended plan. For this price, we could look at the plan, but not keep it unless we hired the center to do the work. If we liked the plan but chose not to use the center, we would have to pay an additional $500 - $1,000 for just the plan. Anyway, you get the idea. The plan they came up with was nice, but pricey, at $19,000 for a flat patio with a step down from the house, and no seating walls or plantings (hardscape only). The plan did use a very nice paver block - Brussels.

So we decided to get another estimate from a small operation, and to make a long story shorter . . . we can get a larger patio with a seating wall around the whole thing, lighting wiring, a sidewalk and grill area for $20,000 with the same Brussels block. While I still think this is expensive, I'm much happier with the low overhead, down-to-earth operation than the big-wig outfit. The patio will be over 500 square feet, plus a sidewalk, seating walls with pillars, and a grill area.

We were initially hoping for something in the $10,000 - $15,000 range. We didn't give either company a budget amount, because we knew what we wanted, but figured if it were too expensive that we'd just wait and save more money.

I think it is most unfortunate that your landscape designer failed to listen to your wishes as to budget and size. The cell phone etiquette thing seems to be a widespread problem everywhere.

You'll probably have better results with the other recommended contractors. Please keep us posted.

Jan

My husband, being a building contractor, has 4 crews. He has had to expand his company due to word of mouth which is a good thing. I have a problem understanding what people want. Some want the contractor there at the ready but not one of their crews, yet often don't understand that if they are popular and big enough that they can't all do the work themselves, they NEED to have enough people working for them to be able to keep up. This certainly doesn't mean that the work is of any lesser quality at all.

My husband spends most of the day travelling from one job site to the other, and is always on his phone keeping in contact with his crew members should they need his advice or supplies or even to double check parts of plans with suppliers or architects.

The phone being out and ready, could be very important, even during an initial meeting with a potential client. He needs to be available for ALL his clients and should they run into trouble, his employees need to be in touch with him right away.

As for the price given by this landscape contractor, well obviously he wasn't listening or simply didn't give a hoot what his clients were looking for. My husband, will sometimes go over a budget, even in the initial bid, but with explanations as to why the cost is overun, and that's when they all get together to brainstorm for different ideas if possible.

"OK maybe I'm way off here but don't you have the guys that do everybody's yard. You know the ones that come all in one truck and mow your yard once a week."

Nothing like that here. People either do their own yards (gasp!) or they hire a guy who owns the service and does it himself with one helper. No 'ones that come all in one truck'...

.

"Who do you think the professionals hire?
I live in Texas and those teams are more knowledgeable than anybody else. If they can't do it, they will recommend someone that can. Maybe it's just different here."

Things MUST be different there!
The professionals don't hire anyone... they have their own full time work crews on payroll with health insurance and other benefits.