If your contract stipulates that the soil is to remain on site and now you're asking that some of it be removed, then they're not out of line asking for additional money to remove it. They've got to bring out a Bobcat and a dump truck that they had not anticipated. It sounds like things are going slower than you would want, but I don't see anything that indicates breach of contract. If you want out of the contract then discuss it with the PB and maybe he'll agree to terminate and you can find someone else to finish it. I'll warn you though, you'll probably pay a lot more than what you owe to finish with someone else. Could be as much as double from what I've read. Unless you're convinced this PB is trying to rip you off you're likely better off trying to work things out with them. See if they'll agree to a schedule to finish it up (in writing).

We had a similar experience. Our PB also said our build would take 6 weeks and we would be swimming in May. I reached my boiling point in July and we came to an agreement with our pool builder. He didn't need to do any more work and we didn't need to pay him any more money. My lawyer wrote up a contract termination document that my PB had to sign. We had paid him 72% of our contract price. I think we definitely paid him too much for what we got but we weren't in horrible shape when we needed to sub out the rest of the work with the money we had left. It could have been a lot worse.

Once you give him that next payment you are his until the end. If you do stay with him, I would tell him he isn't getting the next payment until all work is done except the plaster.

If you want to move on, I would make a list of all the work that remains and try to get rough estimates of what that work will cost. We didn't do this in great detail when we walked away and I think we are lucky that things worked out the way they did.

So far, I am glad we walked away. It was liberating! It was a lot more work but we were less frustrated.

yes the initial contract stipulates that soil remain on site because the PB is extending our yard and also building a retaining wall. The pool is located on a yard with a slope into a lake.
Paying for removing extra soil, would it be the issue; but at this point it is not clear. How much a bobcat and dump truck could cost ? 400 $ max?
What we are worried is the few amount of work being done to our property on a monthly basis when they advertise about 45 days completion date everywhere, including their web site. We are worried about the lies of some of the employees, we are worried about the supervisor not returning our call, we are worried about the salesman no longer working for them ...
We waited nearly 1 year for a permit which took about 3 weeks for our neighbor to be processed. We have very few communication with the PB and it is frustrating.
Right now we are looking at our options.
I don't want to give another 30pct on "tile day" when the yard & deck is not done / cleaned. Are they going to remove the debris and soil and build the retaining wall when the pool is finished?

I would have pulled out when it took a year for a permit. What does it say in the contract about the retaining wall. What are they using for the retaining wall. If it was me I would check your contract carefully and contact the PB and let him know that you are very unhappy.

Quote: "How much a bobcat and dump truck could cost ? 400 $ max?"

Probably, unless the'yre a really small operation they likely have their own Bobcat & dump trucks so you're paying fuel, labor and disposal costs.

Well based on your comments about the lack of contact I'd be very concerned too. I definitely would try and revise the payment schedule. Write your concerns and your proposed revised payment schedule in a letter and try and get them to sign it. It wouldn't hurt to review this with a lawyer as well.

I don't know how much extra dirt you have but you'd be surprised how it compacts and you need more.

If its a lot. Advertise on Craigslist that you have dirt... U pickup and haul and you might find some small landscapers who will pick it up.

Well, we would have pulled out when it took a year for a permit if we had not give 3700 $ up front. We actually thought that perhaps the permit was an issue with the city or their office staff, and they seemed to have a good reputation in the area.
What does it say in the contract about the retaining wall? The permit stipulates a concrete retaining wall and an extension of our backyard. more or less they should have been here to evaluate "x" amount of earth need at excavation. That's my assumption since this is their job not mine.
I am going to put a picture of the job for a better understanding.
Does anybody has a clue about the cost of removing this extra soil? Today the supervisor is suppose to meet us at 3pm (if he shows up .. this time).
Will post an update later. Does anybody think that the wall should be constructed before tiles? Does anybody know if things get rough this afternoon, if we need to apply for a new permit with another PB to finish the job?
Appreciate your feedback.

[IMG]http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff359/somiami/pool/DSC01826.jpg[/IMG]

{{!gwi}}

That looks like some good "fill"...it looks like sandy with no rocks. I'm sure you could get someone to pick this up for free if you advertised it. The cost of picking this up is the cost of the truck and the bobcat...and it depends whether the person owns both pieces of equipment mostly.

However, keep in mind that someone may have to pay $300 for that dirt...so if they can haul it away from you for free, you may be able to get it to go away for free. Advertise it in Craigslist or find a new home contruction site and ask around if anyone needs some fill. A small concrete person with laborers already might just shovel
it on the back of their pickup truck and you'd be done with it.

Really if you wanted to get out of the contract when your project sat for a year, you should have gotten out then. Now, you have let the project continue and based on acquiance, you will have a tough arguing that when you let them continue already. Thats a very weak position.

follow up
Supervisor came today. He admitted that the company is very busy. He admitted that they will need a bobcat and pull back the earth from the lake with some type of equipment and a dumping truck. He asked us to share the cost, he will provide an estimate by tomorrow. Meanwhile, we told him that we don't want to hear about tiles and $$$ until the earth is moved and debris out of the yard.
We are looking at an estimate on our side.
Actually from the pic you can't see; but there are very big rocks, some of them already in the lake and others in the neighbor's yard ..
Is it fair enough?

Hard to tell the scope of the retaining wall without seeing the site, but I would think that it would be the next step in the process. Is the retaining wall and deck in your PB's scope? If so, I wouldn't have them remove any dirt until your retaining wall is in and backfilled. As Barco said, you'd be amazed at how much dirt it takes to do some fill. My PB saved a bunch of our dirt to fill in the construction ruts and hauled the rest away. I kept telling him he didn't save enough. They ended up hauling 5 or 6 loads back!

A bobcat and a dump truck wil be alot more than $400/day. To give you an idea on what it is worth, Just to go out and rent a 5-6 yd dump truck without an operator will cost a contractor 350-450/day plus mileage and a skid steer 150-250/day. Add in insurance for the equipment (14%), sales tax, fuel, pickup/delivery, load and unload time plus drivers/operators wages ($15+/hour), their insurance taxes etc not very cheap. With the building slowdown its harder to find people to take dirt, at least in S Florida, which means more driving distance, more fuel and more wages. It looks like the dirt you have isnt very clean as you can see the rocks in the picture which will make it even harder to get rid of.
If it helps at all, the dirt stayed in my backyard almost the entire build time so at this point I wouldnt be too worried. They should use alot of it on the retaining wall, I dont think there is as much there as you think.

Well I can't see the dirt anymore...but if thing that dirt is bad, you should see what the pull out of Central Texas here....its 90% limestone...ugly limestone unfortunately ;)

I would kill for some of that sand.

Barco, please If you want it .. it's all yours and for free ! You just need to pick it up ! Honestly there are lots of big rocks, I was even thinking of using them for decoration but I am running out of inspiration :-)

Sub, those numbers would certainly be valid if you were hiring a generic contractor to haul off dirt, but most PBs own their own equipment including the trailers they use to haul it with; and they use their own employees to handle the equipment. Our PB is fairly small compared to most (they only work in the DFW area) and even they own all their equipment. Typically a PB will have several projects going on in the same area, so they'll try to schedule something like this when they have the equipment there already.

Tres with all due respect, the PB did use their hard earned money to purchase the equipment and the PB has to write payroll checks out of their account for their employees every week. I mean, believe it or not there is a cost to owning equipment which I am sure I dont have to get into. You have to buy it, finance it, fix it, insure it, run it, depreciate it, fuel it and replace it all while the costs of this are going up everyday. If a contractor can not make the going rate to own his equipment then he will be out of business in short order. The numbers I put up there are the going rates to rent the equivalent pieces of equipment at a contractors rate on a daily basis. To purchase, a track skid steer costs between $40-65k new, a small 6yd dump truck $65k, small trailer $6k, 18k lb excavator $70-90k, chop saw $950 etc. I think everyone has a tendency to undervalue the cost of business.
Im just trying to give a realistic expectation on the costs so somiami doesnt feel like he is being ripped off or will better know when he is.

I would be very concerned...per the contract you signed, it appears all payments are linked to the pool's stages of completion. When the tile is put in, you'll be on the hook for that additional 35% per your contract, with only a mere 5% left to pay. That's not enough to "encourage" your PB to continue working on your project, let alone do a yard extension and retaining wall!

In theory, according to your contract, if the PB finishes your pool, he's entitled to all the contract money although he's still obligated to do your wall and yard extension if those items are specified in the contract. Not much of an incentive to work on those items in a timely fashion (if at all) if there's no $$ in it for him anymore.

I'm concerned that your PB is already asking for you to do a cost-share arrangement for the wall/yard part of the contract, even if it's just for dirt removal. I wouldn't have expected him to agree to remove any dirt until he's very close to completion on the retaining wall for exactly the reasons several other posters have mentioned. Even if there is dirt that will eventually have to be removed, he should have known certain equipment might be needed and figured that cost into your contract or specified some "wiggle room" in your deal. Like Tresw, I wonder if a retaining wall, especially a lakeside one, is within your PB's set of skills.

I think it's a good idea you've met with the supervisor to try to hammer out the rest of your project. Get all your agreements in writing. In a perfect world, that last payment should have been larger and should have been due at the end of the project, when done to your satisfaction.

Sub, I'm in the design and construction industry and am well aware of the costs involved. If you go back and read the entire thread, the issue here is that there is some confusion over who is reponsible for paying the costs of moving the dirt. The owner believes the PB should be responsible and the PB believes the owner should be responsible. My point is that they should meet somewhere in the middle and 600 bucks sounds like a good middle ground.

Somiami, try to work something out with your PB because if you hire subl1002, it will cost you around 150k to move that dirt ;-)

follow up.
We had to talk to the PB owner since the numbers were a bit high and supervisor seemed to be caught between company and ourselves (estimate was $ 5000 to remove the dirt for a 50/50 of $ 2500 on our side).
PB owner after hearing our side of the story and details, seems to be willing to work things out, finish our pool asap and give our project 100 pct satisfaction.... !!!
We came to an agreement to remove the dirt last Friday for $ 1500 (our share). Curiously it was the same "sub contractors" who excavated last May ! They were nice but the "digger" was too heavy and our phone line got cut (compliments of the chef).
They are scheduled to come back on Monday .. this was before the Tropical Storm warning across South Florida !!! I seriously doubt they will show up tomorrow ;-)
We are documenting everything, and until the wall is completed, the PB will not receive a check from us.
Will add more pics when soil is moved. Thanks all for the advises.
Kids are desperately waiting for their pool .. and adults too !!!

Maybe I missed something but, I wouldnt remove any dirt until the retaining wall is backfilled unless you absolutely have to. You dont want to buy fill that is already sitting there, haul it back in and place it at another couple thousand. The PB should be able to calculate how much was excavated and how much is needed to backfill. Then pay to haul off the difference which may be less than you think.

The retaining wall has to be concrete. I actually wonder why they did not do it while pouring concrete for the pool?
The more I think about it, the more I realize this project is very unorganized and we were so newbies. The initial contract does not stipulate the retaining wall, it is an addendum and obviously there is no specific "schedule payment for it". Neither did we take the precaution to specify if the wall should be built before the tiles installation; we just assumed that the PB knew his job and the Sale Representative sounded so professional.
Technically, I wonder if the day the PB shows up for Tile installation, we can retain payment until completion to our satisfaction? or at least only give a 50 down at tile and another 50 after the deck is completed.
Would we breach the contract? Tile day is basically the last largest payment. The last 5pct will never cover the cost of Deck pavers, Heater, Pump etc
Damn it! Remind me to use a lawyer before signing a contract next time!

SoMiami,
You admit in an early thread that you agreed to have the dirt removed, or that it would stay on site. You therefore can not expect the PB to pay to have it removed.
BTW, that does ot look like a lot of soil. And your yard still needs to be extended, and your wall still needs to be backfilled.
Like the above poster said, advertise it in craigslist for free. You will get takers, and your worries will be over.
I am also confused on another thing. You say the wall was an adition after the pool contract was signed. Did you all agree to an additional price for the wall? Or was the PB just going to suck it up?

The pool is shot with gunite so he wouldnt do the wall at the same time. Does this guy have any experience building retaining walls (especially being in S Florida)? I would be a little concerned with his expertise in this especially being on a lake. Im not saying your PB doesnt know what he is doing, he may have done millions of them. I would consider a seperate retaining wall contractor if its not too late. You wouldnt hire an electrician to fix your toilet

So what was the conclusion here? Enquiring minds want to know.